Utility Cycling - Big Dummy Build - Rohloff?

http://www.surlybikes.com/frames/images/bd_main.jpg

Well I've gone to the darkside and ordered a BD frame. I have a mtn bike I can use for donor parts so my initial setup will be Shimano mtb drivetrain and Avid mechanical disc brakes.

My rear wheel will not be strong enough to handle the full potential of the loads I can carry on my BD. I also need a stronger rear wheel on my touring bike which is currently running mtb gearing and v-brakes.

So I think I'll go one of two routes and wanted some feedback from the forum.

http://www.rohloff.de/uploads/pics/small_cc_db_oem_black_01.jpg

Rohloff Option:
- build up one wheel with a Rohloff disc hub and a strong rim with a braking surface for rim brakes
- use this wheel mainly on my BD, but have my touring bike setup with Rohloff controls so I just have to throw the wheel into that frame when I want to tour.

Pros:
- I'd get lots of use out of this wheel
- I can use it on pretty much any 26" wheeled bike I end up with down the road
- should be low maintenance
- I'd like to try a Rohloff

Cons:
- swapping wheels is a bit of a hassle
- can't use both bikes at once if I want to lend one to a friend
- more expensive than standard gearing

MTB Drivetrain Option:
- build up one disc wheel [BD] and one rim brake wheel [touring bike] for use with each bike
- use my existing mtb drivetrains

Pros:
- I own all the drivetrain bits for both bikes already
- I can use both bikes at the same time
- no swapping even if only using one bike at a time
- lower cost

Cons:
- more maintenance
- once I've invested in good wheels for both bikes a Rohloff is pretty much out of the picture

I have been interested in a Rohloff hub, but the cost and application has never quite matched up for me. By using the same wheel on two bikes I'll get enough use out of it to justify the cost and the BD seems like a good use for the Rohloff as I can keep my maintenance to a minimum and shift at a stop. I've also had a bike-geek's interest in a Rohloff just for the sake of experiencing the internal geared hub thing and seeing for myself if it was as great as some people make out.

Is anyone using a Rohloff for a cargo/utility bike? Any thoughts?

I have two bikes with Rohloff hubs. One is my commuter, a Salsa La Raza (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=213856), the other was my Xtra-Giant (my utility bike) (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=288973) but I've moved the hub to my Voodoo and I am now running a NuVinci on the Giant.

Swapping the Rohloff between bikes is going to get old fast. It's a great hub for utility use (wonderful bottom end), however I would consider using the tandem Rohloff if you are going to use your long-tail for heavy loads. I never had a problem with mine on my Giant, however since it was not the tandem version I did not want to risk killing a $1K+ hub (again never had a problem with it).

I love the NuVinci hub, it's heavy but damn it's a hoss. The gear range is less than the Rohloff, and its gear range may be the nicest part of the Rohloff. The general feel of the NuVinci is as nice as Rohloff's though, and both are vastly superior than any other internal geared hub I've owned.

In short, the Rohloff has a great range, and is a highly durable hub, however the NuVinci for quite a bit less cash feels as substantial if not more. The NuVinci's drawbacks are its weight and less range than the Rohloff.

Note--I've gone through several hubs on the Giant, only the Rohloff and the NuVinci held up. SA-8, cracked in half, SRAM 5 stripped out and would not hold gears, SRAM 7 w/drum brake, the brake locked and the gears skipped. Haven't tried Shimano's IH, went to Rohloff first.

Swapping the Rohloff between bikes is going to get old fast. It's a great hub for utility use (wonderful bottom end), however I would consider using the tandem Rohloff if you are going to use your long-tail for heavy loads. I never had a problem with mine on my Giant, however since it was not the tandem version I did not want to risk killing a $1K+ hub (again never had a problem with it).

Thanks for the response Allen:

1) there is only one version of the Rohloff hub, the tandem kit just comes with longer cables. They are coming out with a newer lighter Rohloff in 2008/09 which won't he tandem rated. but at the moment there is just one version of the Rohloff hub.

2) when you say it will get old fast moving the Rohloff wheel between bikes why is that? I would have both bikes setup with a Rohloff shifter, cables and external shift box as well as a Rohloff chain tensioner. If I understand the process correctly I would just have to insert the wheel into the frame and connect the external shift box and I should be good to go.

Vik, are you planning on using the same tires on each bike? That might decide it for me. I'd be annoyed if I was wanting hardpack tires on the dummy and touring tires on the touring bike.

2) when you say it will get old fast moving the Rohloff wheel between bikes why is that? I would have both bikes setup with a Rohloff shifter, cables and external shift box as well as a Rohloff chain tensioner. If I understand the process correctly I would just have to insert the wheel into the frame and connect the external shift box and I should be good to go.

Outfitting both bikes with all the accoutremont, swapping the wheel will be all you have to do (you will also need the torsion arm attachment for both bikes, the BD is not equipped with Rohloff dropouts). However the cost of the accoutremont will be almost as much as an internal hub on its own (and more than the SA hubs). For around the same money you could put the Rohloff on the BD and a SA or a Shimano (or other) hub on the other bike.

I do think so highly of Rohloff that I bought two, and the NuVinci is the only hub that I've owned that is in the same class as the Rohloff.

Oh, and you are going to need the tandem cables anyway, the regular cables will not reach on a longtail (well they did not reach on mine).

Vik, are you planning on using the same tires on each bike? That might decide it for me. I'd be annoyed if I was wanting hardpack tires on the dummy and touring tires on the touring bike.

My default on both bikes would be 26 x 2.0" Marathon XRs.

I should also note that I have two touring bikes a 700c LHT which will be ready to roll 24/7 and a Thorn Sherpa w/ 26" wheels that I might share the Rohloff w/ the Big Dummy. So it isn't like I don't have another bike to grab if the BD is overkill and I don't want to swap wheels.

I priced out a rear wheel built locally by my LBS 36H XT disc hub & Velocity Cliffhanger rim for under $300.

I can get a discount on Mavic rims - any ideas on a good disc specific choice with 36H for a Big Dummy?

Outfitting both bikes with all the accoutremont, swapping the wheel will be all you have to do (you will also need the torsion arm attachment for both bikes, the BD is not equipped with Rohloff dropouts). However the cost of the accoutremont will be almost as much as an internal hub on its own (and more than the SA hubs). For around the same money you could put the Rohloff on the BD and a SA or a Shimano (or other) hub on the other bike.

I do think so highly of Rohloff that I bought two, and the NuVinci is the only hub that I've owned that is in the same class as the Rohloff.

Oh, and you are going to need the tandem cables anyway, the regular cables will not reach on a longtail (well they did not reach on mine).

Ya I would get the tandem kit as I'll need that for the BD. The BD doesn't need the torsion arm as the OEM dropouts are setup for Rohloff hubs.

Good point about the cost of the extra shifter and cables. I'll have to price everything out so I know what the total cost will be.

Ya I would get the tandem kit as I'll need that for the BD. The BD doesn't need the torsion arm as the OEM dropouts are setup for Rohloff hubs

I did not know that about the Big Dummy. However if your touring bike is not equipped with Rohloff OEM dropouts you will need a torsion arm equipped hub. The torsion arm is attached to the hub so you would have to use it on both bikes.

I did not know that about the Big Dummy. However if your touring bike is not equipped with Rohloff OEM dropouts you will need a torsion arm equipped hub. The torsion arm is attached to the hub so you would have to use it on both bikes.

You can replace the torsion arm with the OEM2 plate that works on the Big Dummy, but that procedure may not be worth the effort - depending on how long you'll be switching the hub for.

Thanks for the feedback. Just going over all the details and costs makes it clear that the Rohloff option is a huge investment in $$$ and effort when you already have MTB drive trains that work well. I wish I could get a good test ride in on one so I could validate that I'll be happy at the end of the process.

My default on both bikes would be 26 x 2.0" Marathon XRs.

I priced out a rear wheel built locally by my LBS 36H XT disc hub & Velocity Cliffhanger rim for under $300.

I can get a discount on Mavic rims - any ideas on a good disc specific choice with 36H for a Big Dummy?

Well, they're not Mavic, but for under $300, Halo wheels are an option. They're not very light either, but the Combat is a very tough 36h disk wheel, the SAS is a 48 spoke disk wheel which would take anything BD could.

http://www.halorims.com/HaloNew/products/wheels/sas/sas-black-24r-full.jpg

I've been looking at getting one of those, personally.

Well, they're not Mavic, but for under $300, Halo wheels are an option. They're not very light either, but the Combat is a very tough 36h disk wheel, the SAS is a 48 spoke disk wheel which would take anything BD could.

http://www.halorims.com/HaloNew/products/wheels/sas/sas-black-24r-full.jpg

I've been looking at getting one of those, personally.

Where can you get these in town or do you have to mail order them?

... SA-8, cracked in half, SRAM 5 stripped out and would not hold gears, SRAM 7 w/drum brake, the brake locked and the gears skipped.
Is the above due to carrying heavy loads, or are you saying these hubs, in general, are just not robust?

Where can you get these in town or do you have to mail order them?

I think the Bike Shop told me that they could order them in from what I recall, but Halo is a UK brand, so they're mail/web order otherwise.

You can replace the torsion arm with the OEM2 plate that works on the Big Dummy, but that procedure may not be worth the effort - depending on how long you'll be switching the hub for.

Thanks for the feedback. Just going over all the details and costs makes it clear that the Rohloff option is a huge investment in $$$ and effort when you already have MTB drive trains that work well. I wish I could get a good test ride in on one so I could validate that I'll be happy at the end of the process.

If you are ever in the Atlanta area I've got several you are more than welcome to test ride. They are magic hubs, never failing, skipping, slipping, or anything but feeling like the precision instruments they are. They're German.

The torsion arm hub and the OEM hub are two separate beasts, it's either or.

Ben Cooper has a pretty good listing of Rohloff hubs on his store's site: http://www.kinetics.org.uk/html/rohloff1.shtml

I bought my first hub from him (find one on this continent, importing from the EU sucks), but his breakdown of all the Rohloff hubs is fairly comprehensive.

This info is straight from the Rohloff website - you can swap any method of torque support in or out.

http://www.rohloff.de/typo3temp/pics/3208d2503e.jpeg

"The various axle plates are all available separately, and therefore, making it easy to change any version of the Rohloff SPEEDHUB 500/14 over to a different method of torque support."


http://www.rohloff.de/uploads/pics/speedbone_01.jpg

"Frames with disk brake mounts of international standard (IS 2000) can replace the use of the long torque arm with an OEM2 axle plate and a support bold. For use in conjunction with a disc brake, a SPEEDBONE or a SPEEDBONE Gustav M must also be mounted."

Thanks for your kind offer of trying your hubs - unfortunately from Canada the cost of the trial would be a good chunk of the price for the Rohloff!

Vik:

I think Allen covered/answered a lot of your concerns, but there was one more thing that you'll need to think about with respect to the Sherpa (from what I understand, it has drop bars). How are you going to mount the shifter?

This had me puzzled (for a while) because I didn't want to get rid of my drops. If you have, or are considering MTB bars, then disregard the following.

If you have an A-head, which I presume you do, and you have enought spacers, you may be able to install a second short stem and then install a short piece of MTB bar (7/8 in. or 22.2mm). This is what I did. However I didn't have enough spacers. I combined two upgrades at that point and installed an Avid BB-7 (a new fork was also required) and cut the steering tube longer to accomodate more spacers.

If your stem height is exactly where you want it right now, you may have to flip your stem or purchase another stem to find the same height. I moved the stem and spacers around to find the new height, which was just slightly higher than original. I then cut the steering tube. When I installed the shifter, I simply removed some spacers.

This I would think would be a minor glitch. But depending on what you decide to do, you'll have to factor that into the price.

Personally, I would leave the Rohloff on one bike. Right now, you have the luxury of choosing from a few bikes. If I had to put it on one of my bikes, it would be my commuter - which is also my touring bike. It sees the most mileage, under the worst (at times) conditions.

Good luck with whatever you decide. Oh, and if you're in Vancouver, you could take my bike for a spin.

Dave

Vik:

I think Allen covered/answered a lot of your concerns, but there was one more thing that you'll need to think about with respect to the Sherpa (from what I understand, it has drop bars). How are you going to mount the shifter?

Hi Dave - funny you mention mounting the shifter as I just put a Thorn accessory bar on my Sherpa (http://thelazyrandonneur.blogspot.com/2008/02/ortlieb-bar-bag.html).

http://bp3.blogger.com/_vUEhS0lU3eU/R6-I0FKWpqI/AAAAAAAAEYc/FLTI9H-URu4/s400/ortbag4.JPG

So one option would be to mount the Rohloff shifter on the end of this bar. The other option would be to use a Hubbub adapter in the end of the drop bar. I think that would be my preferred option.

http://www.hubbub.com/store/prodimages/adapter.jpg

http://bp0.blogger.com/_vUEhS0lU3eU/R6_LjVKWpsI/AAAAAAAAEYs/8AMdMxALe_g/s400/005.JPG

I visit Vancouver occasionally so perhaps I will take you up on your offer. I'll see if there is anyone in Calgary I can get in touch with who has a Rohloff I can try first though.

I take it you like your Rohloff a lot?

I agree just using it on one bike would be ideal, but I split my mileage pretty evenly over 3-4 bikes so it would be great if I could use it on at least two different bikes. Perhaps that is just too much hassle.

Thanks for all the info - I'll have to ponder the matter and see what kind of price my LBS will sell me a Rohloff for.

Vik:

I had looked at the Hubbub. I ride on the hoods a lot (not in the drops), plus I didn't like the way the cables would come out from that point. I'm not a vain person, but I am when it comes to my bikes.

Anyway, it's a non-issue for you with your accessory bar.

Yes, I love my Rohloff. And I will probably own more than one of them at some point in the future. That's how much I love it/them. Price may be somewhat of an issue, but in the long run, it more than pays for itself.

...Cons:
- once I've invested in good wheels for both bikes a Rohloff is pretty much out of the picture...
...Any thoughts?


[bad influence] It's just money, you'll get more. Go all out, 2 wheels & internal gears. [/bad influence]

[bad influence] It's just money, you'll get more. Go all out, 2 wheels & internal gears. [/bad influence]

+1, but I too recommend the NuVinci. I'm not saying it's better than the Rohloff, I have no data on that-- but I have one on my Xtracycle and I like it a lot. If you want to try a Rohloff (who doesn't?) and you can afford it (or are willing to afford it), and you won't be happy until you try it, well than, just go for it. And get a Nuvinci for the other bike, for all the same reasons.

I can get a discount on Mavic rims - any ideas on a good disc specific choice with 36H for a Big Dummy?

If my fuzzy memory is accurate, doesn't use of a Rohloff Speedhub require a 32H rim? And Vik...you beat me to this posting. And I thank you for getting it posted...just contacted Speedgoat today about putting together my Dummy's drivetrain...Rohloff first, cranks second.

I'm so ignorant of the Rohloff Way that I don't even know if I'm to run a single, double or triple sprocket up front. Single...right? Surly Whirlygig? Don't mean to derail your thread, Vik...but it sounds like we're on parallel paths!

Cheers, all you Big Dummy Lovers.

If my fuzzy memory is accurate, doesn't use of a Rohloff Speedhub require a 32H rim? And Vik...you beat me to this posting. And I thank you for getting it posted...just contacted Speedgoat today about putting together my Dummy's drivetrain...Rohloff first, cranks second.

I'm so ignorant of the Rohloff Way that I don't even know if I'm to run a single, double or triple sprocket up front. Single...right? Surly Whirlygig? Don't mean to derail your thread, Vik...but it sounds like we're on parallel paths!

Cheers, all you Big Dummy Lovers.

You'll be running a single chain ring up front with a Rohloff - mind the minimum gear ratios which for a tandem/cargo bike are 40x16 or 42x17. Thorn has a good article about Rohloffs here (http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/thornpdf/ThornLivingWithARohloff.pdf). Are you going with the external gear mechanism or the internal version?

Glad you posted - I'll be interested to here your opinions once you get your BD on the road.

BTW - you are right about the Rohloff needing a 32H rim. However, at the moment I'm pricing out a 36H rim to use with a 36H XT disc hub - which is what I'll go with if I don't buy a Rohloff.

You'll be running a single chain ring up front with a Rohloff - mind the minimum gear ratios which for a tandem/cargo bike are 40x16 or 42x17. Thorn has a good article about Rohloffs here (http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/thornpdf/ThornLivingWithARohloff.pdf).

Thanks for that link. Will dive into all 8 pages later this evening.



Are you going with the external gear mechanism or the internal version?

No idea. Yet. But thanks for asking...now I can add that criteria to my checklist of upcoming decisions.

No idea. Yet. But thanks for asking...now I can add that criteria to my checklist of upcoming decisions.

The text below was copied from Surly's Big Dummy Spew (http://www.surlybikes.com/spew19.html):

"Internal Hubs - Most single-speed hubs and internal-gear hubs, with 135mm O.L.D. spacing, will work on the Big Dummy, but a chain tensioner is required. Single-pulley tensioners, like the Surly Singleator, will only work in the “push-down” position due to the configuration of the chainstays. In some cases…when using a small cog or a worn drivetrain, there may not be enough chain wrap to prevent the chain from slipping over the teeth of the cog under high torque. A double-pulley tensioner (Pauls Melvin, Rohloff tensioner, or short-cage rear derailleur locked into place with its high-gear limiting screw) may provide more chain wrap.

We designed the Big Dummy with the Rohloff Speedhub in mind. A tab for the Rohloff OEM2 axle plate is incorporated into the left-side rear dropout plate. This configuration eliminates the need for the long torque arm and facilitates easier installation and removal of the Rohloff hub. A M6 x 1 cap head machine screw (6-8mm long) is required for this set-up. The OEM2 axle plate indexes on the head of the screw, so the screw should be installed with the head facing the hub. Please refer to the Rohloff Speedhub manual for more information regarding the OEM2 axle plate configuration."

1 Rohloff Disc Speedhub, black, in stock? Ordered! Whammy!

1 Rohloff Disc Speedhub, black, in stock? Ordered! Whammy!

Cool - congrats! What did it cost? Did you get the tandem length cables and a Rohloff disc rotor?

If my fuzzy memory is accurate, doesn't use of a Rohloff Speedhub require a 32H rim? And Vik...you beat me to this posting. And I thank you for getting it posted...just contacted Speedgoat today about putting together my Dummy's drivetrain...Rohloff first, cranks second.

I'm so ignorant of the Rohloff Way that I don't even know if I'm to run a single, double or triple sprocket up front. Single...right? Surly Whirlygig? Don't mean to derail your thread, Vik...but it sounds like we're on parallel paths!

Cheers, all you Big Dummy Lovers.
Rohloff reckon a 32 hole Rohloff is as strong (at least) as a 36, because there is no dishing. You would normally run a single front ring, but there is nothing stopping you from running more, though it does seem to kinda spoil the straight chain line thing. Saw one set up that had Rohloff on the back and a Schlumpf mountain drive on the front for a cool 1000% gear spread. :eek:

You would normally run a single front ring, but there is nothing stopping you from running more, though it does seem to kinda spoil the straight chain line thing. Saw one set up that had Rohloff on the back and a Schlumpf mountain drive on the front for a cool 1000% gear spread. :eek:

I believe this is the animal you saw:
http://www.kinetics-online.co.uk/assets/images/853_02_small.jpg
13-133 gear inches.

It's from here: http://www.kinetics-online.co.uk/html/853_commuter.shtml

I believe this is the animal you saw:
http://www.kinetics-online.co.uk/assets/images/853_02_small.jpg
13-133 gear inches.

It's from here: http://www.kinetics-online.co.uk/html/853_commuter.shtml
Yup, that's it!
Ultimate commuter? I'd say so.

Yup, that's it!
Ultimate commuter? I'd say so.

The retail cost of the parts that that bike is made of are worth more than every bike I have ever owned combined.... ... ....and I want one!

Saw one set up that had Rohloff on the back and a Schlumpf mountain drive on the front for a cool 1000% gear spread. :eek:


IIRC, Schlumpf says to use the speed drive (overdrive) version of thier geared BB, rather than the mountain drive (underdrive) in conjunction with the Rohloff. Using the mountain drive exceeds the torque rating of the Rohloff. Note the small chain ring in the photos...appropriate for the speed drive.

Cool - congrats! What did it cost? Did you get the tandem length cables and a Rohloff disc rotor?

Rohloff Quick-Release Disc Speedhub 16t Cog 32-hole Q-R ($1300 at Speedgoat)

Yes, I did get the 160mm rotor. Also, I started a new thread, as I fear I was beginning to hijack yours.

Big Dummies, on the move!

I got mine from a US catalog for 995. I asked them to chase down last year's stock, which I guess means one couldn't find this year's models which apparently include options I didn't have. I think I like the older model though, so it probably worked out for me.

So far I intend to use custom made breezer drops to keep the hub stable, I will just make one side sdeepr than the other. I like the breezer drop for it's ability to support the plate the hub hangs in.

I may make a pair of two piece drop bars. I want slightly wider than normal bars, so I could go any size I want if I make my own, and then just trim them back as I regain sanity on the spread. Rather than just copying the SJS version, I will make the splice integral with the stem. The real limitation here is whether the 4130 ends up weighing too much. With split drops one can mount the shifter on the tops.

Other options for mounting the shifter would be some kind of dongle I saw one that Maher did that was integrated with the brake stop. Somewhat stupider though I wouldn't mind if extra Rohloff cables were affordable, would be to put it where the sun don't shine as they used to on coupled constructeur touring bikes. I like the awkwardness: it would drive the Brifter crowd crazy though I would need to be making a coupled bike for that to be sensible.

Where can you get the Nuvinci hubs?