By TONY MESSENGER
Published Thursday, October 2, 2003
Writing a column is a lot like riding a bike on a highway without a shoulder.
Occasionally somebody in a speeding 2000-pound vehicle zooms alongside you and tries to run you off the road.
Such was the road rage caused by my column a couple weeks ago on motorist-cycling conflicts. The intensity of responses, mostly from cyclists, depended on whether they thought I was promoting the cyclists-as-bowling-pins metaphor - I wasn't - or whether they had been run off the road lately.
The common theme among those who responded to the column was that most motorists have no idea why cyclists are so defensive over their right to share the road. The condition develops after years of almost weekly conflicts that scare cyclists to death, Jim McDonald told me.
McDonald is a longtime member of the Columbia Bike Club and a former director of the club's racing team. He logs about 8,000 to 10,000 road miles a year on his bike, which, he says, is a minimum for anybody who wants to race
competitively.
He realizes that many cyclists are oversensitive about their conflicts with motorists, but he defends such reactions as natural based on what they have to endure to participate in their avocation.
McDonald says that on average he doesn't go more than two weeks without some sort of conflict with a motorist. Sometimes it's somebody driving too
close, or it might be somebody who yells out the window at him. But at least once a month it's worse. He gets run off the road; something gets tossed at him.
It can be downright scary, he says.
It's why he takes issue with folks who drive up to bicyclists and try to debate them over their right to the road.
"I don't think people stop to think what kind of person it makes them to use the 2000-pound car or truck to make their point," he says. "It makes
them a coward."
From McDonald's standpoint, incidents like that can't ever turn out positive. Even if a driver truly believes they're trying to be nice and do the right thing, they have to yell out the window just for the cyclist to hear them. And the
cyclist is probably already scared before the car ever pulls up to them.
It points to the larger conflict that McDonald would like to fix. Motorists and cyclists just don't understand where each one is coming from. Most cyclists, he says, will do anything they can to avoid conflict with motorists.
"We really make an effort to avoid traffic," he says. "We don't want to be around traffic any more than we have to. It's a very threatening situation."
McDonald has ridden Route J frequently, much like the cyclists I wrote about. Most area cyclists, he says, know when to ride it and when to avoid it. The same is true of the other rural routes cyclists prefer for training.
The problem, of course, is that some motorists just don't want cyclists on the road at all. And some cyclists take their defensiveness a bit too far.
Take one of the other cyclists who wrote me a couple of weeks ago. He sent me a link to a St. Louis Internet forum where cyclists were responding to talk of a fellow biker being run off the road. The discussion quickly turned to which sort of sidearm various cyclists consider carrying while they ride. The exchange took
place, ironically, a couple days before the Missouri General Assembly overturned the governor's veto of a bill allowing concealed weapons.
"I recommend the new line from Smith & Wesson," said one reply. "It weighs in at about 12 oz. and shoots a .356 magnum cartridge - perfect for the weight conscious cyclist." Said another: "I have the Lady Sig P239 which I really like but it's heavy and I don't carry it with me at this time anyway."
"Model 340PD is at Galyans," said somebody from the St. Louis Cycling Club. "I have played with it a little. It is ultra light and a good one for your ankle."
Cyclists and concealed weapons: Coming soon to a road near you.
Count McDonald as those who believe such an extreme is a bad idea. Another bad idea, he says, is riding side by side. While cyclists might do that at times, most of them will move right back to single file when a car is coming, he says.
He's aware, though, that some refuse.
"Anybody who does that is really being a knucklehead," he says. When McDonald sees bicyclists not following the rules of the road, he's not afraid to ride up to them and give them a piece of his mind.
"I've yelled at people," he says. "I'll tell them: You might not care who you piss off, but I have to ride out here, too. "
He'll continue riding, and dodging danger, because that's what he loves doing. McDonald turned to the sport because recurring injuries wouldn't let him play basketball or run anymore. Biking was therapy at first; now it's his sport
of choice.
The only injuries he gets anymore come from crashes. Those, of course, would be generally avoidable, if motorists and cyclists together would follow the rules of the road.
Tony Messenger a columnist at the Tribune. His column appears on Sunday and Tuesday through Thursday. He can be reached at 815-1728 or by e-mail at .
Posted on MoBikeFed.org
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Dear Mr. Messenger,
Road cycling is an act of faith. You trust your fellow man to steer vehicles very capable of killing you instantly just a few feet away from you at much higher speed than your own. Yet, you also know that the society we live in has a few people that like to prey on those they think are weaker and vulnerable. So often are we bicyclists beset by these off-balance individuals that no one can ride without a sense of the high-probability of impending conflict. You know its coming. Some times you go long stretches without incident, and almost regain your faith in your fellow man. But invariably the assaults, the thrown objects, the screaming hatred that is automobilist-on-cyclist road rage comes again. You just don't know when it will come. But it always comes eventually.
I, and I'm sure 99.99% of all experienced cyclists seek to avoid any form of conflict. The odds are overwhelmingly against us in such a battle. We will take the lane when we must for our own safety, but we don't seek conflict with those that could crush us with the flick of the wrist. But, sometimes it gets scary out on the road alone. Since having been assaulted by idiots myself in the middle of nowhere because the idiots thought they could get away with it, I think a cell phone, some Halt(TM) and a pistol make sense to me personally. In fact I'm going to wager some bike-hating creep eventually catches a round or two and goes down with a look of surprise on his face. Is that a sad thing? Sure it is. But if it was a cyclist minding their own business who was set upon by some of the "anger management" crowd, I'd don't think I'd weep to hard. Concealed carry sure evens things up a bit in my book.
I personally don't ever want to have to pull a weapon, let alone use it. But I'll not be a victim either.
Thank you for offering your observations. I, however, don't agree with the premise that law-abiding cyclists possessing a tool of self-defense is such a bad idea, as you say Mr. McDonald believes. We are all in this together and I hope someday to feel like it is safe to ride. That isn't asking too much.
JoeTown244gl (real name used in the letter)
SamDaBikinMan
10-05-03, 06:41 PM
I don't carry on the road but there are some isolated mountain biking areas in N Carolina and N georgia where I ride with a side arm.
These are not developed trail systems but just backcountry areas I have known about for years.
Chris L
10-05-03, 09:38 PM
I think we need to put this whole "self defence" thing in perspective. A fire-arm, no matter how big and spanky, is never going to be able to physically stop a car at close quarters. If someone is really that scared of riding, they probably should not be doing it at all. Personally, I ride to avoid this sort of stress.
Perhaps we might also consider the provocation factor. Believe it or not, the number of drivers out there trying to "kill" cyclists is surprisingly small. Personally I have a bigger problem with people who are just plain incompetent - but that's another rant. The point is that motorists, on the whole, do not set out with a specific plan to kill or maim anybody.
However, if I'm on my bike and start pointing guns at people, what sort of reaction would you expect them to have? In that situation, they might just act a little irrationally, they might just set out to kill someone - and if they did, as related above, a firearm is not going to stop them.
Hence I will continue to ride without carrying a gun, and use the skills I have learned in over 100,000km or riding to keep me out of trouble. It seems to be working pretty well at the moment.
DanFromDetroit
10-06-03, 05:36 AM
You need a poll choice that says:
If I lived in a place that I'd likely need to get in a shoot-out just to get to work, I'd move.
Dan
Hunter
10-06-03, 07:03 AM
I think we need to put this whole "self defence" thing in perspective. A fire-arm, no matter how big and spanky, is never going to be able to physically stop a car at close quarters. If someone is really that scared of riding, they probably should not be doing it at all. Personally, I ride to avoid this sort of stress.
Hence I will continue to ride without carrying a gun, and use the skills I have learned in over 100,000km or riding to keep me out of trouble. It seems to be working pretty well at the moment.
Chris,
There are many firearms that will in CQ stop vehicles. Calibers as small as .223 have been developed with the right bullet placement have enough stopping power to either disable or destroy vehicles. The USN UDT swimmers for example employ a .50 rifle with a custom load that can stop modern cars to tanks, from either a 1/2 mile or 20' away. For that matter my deer rifle with the right placement can stop a vehicle. To argue that the senseless random brandishing of fireamrs while on a bike is ridiculous. I have personally never heard of such nonsense anyway.
There is a saying that has been going around for a long time. "Better safe than sorry." Example: I was bitten twice last weekend by a chicken snake in tall grass. I was carrying a .22 mag bolt action rifle at the time. I had though of my wifes .357 snubnose for we have .38 ratshot for it for just said occasions. This of course would have worked much better, for trying to shoot a moving snake and kill it with a .22 in tall grass was super difficult.
Anyway there are certain occasions when unveiling firearms can end a situation quickly. Looking at firearms as a means of destruction only is not the right way to think of there usage.
Geraldo
10-06-03, 07:13 PM
Well this is certainly interesting. First, I have no problem with concealed carry where legal. In states with CCW, instances of brandishing or other abuse of the right to carry are minimal, and I don't think cyclists would be much different than anyone else in that regard. That said, I doubt I will ever carry a gun on a bike. Too heavy, and too unlikely you'll get it into action anyway. The only scenario for use that even makes sense is against dismounted or pedestrian adversaries. Even then, unless you are rushed and knocked off the bike, kick it into high gear and retreat.
Second, Hunter, having tested rifles, shotguns, and handguns against vehicles (metal and glass) with our SWAT unit, I can tell you there is nothing you can carry on a bike to stop a car. Even with calibers that will penetrate an auto body, getting a sure stop is not easy. .50 sniper rifles with API and Raufoss will defeat light armor, but not tanks at any range, and weigh in the neighborhood of 30-40 pounds. Stopping a vehicle that is trying to run you down is a Hollywood fantasy.
gonesh9
10-06-03, 07:59 PM
I really feel sorry for those of you who live in areas that make you feel you need to carry a gun. Especially while out on a bike ride!!!! The concept blows me away.
Not that I think it's necessarily wrong to do so if it's really that bad in areas.... just seems like bizarro world to me.
John E
10-06-03, 08:30 PM
I really feel sorry for those of you who live in areas that make you feel you need to carry a gun. ...
I have cycled through some pretty rough parts of central Los Angeles. Even there, I worried far more about inattentive or inept motorists than about criminals. The latter never did bother me.
BigFloppyLlama
10-06-03, 08:33 PM
I can't even think of anyone around here that owns a gun, let alone a concealable pistol. The only outcome I could foresee around here would be panic, followed by some irrational thinking and driving, probably resulting in the cyclist getting injured somehow.
I could see a purpose in just brandishing a gun if you were in an area that didn’t listen to reason, but other than that I don’t really see the need to include a weapon in your usual cycling attire.
Chris L
10-06-03, 09:21 PM
To argue that the senseless random brandishing of fireamrs while on a bike is ridiculous. I have personally never heard of such nonsense anyway..
This is a question of interpretations. Pointing a gun at a driver while you're riding might seem sensible and rational to you, but to the guy who has a tonne of steel behind him, it may be considered senseless and random. If that's how he perceives it, he will react accordingly. It's all well and good to talk about shooting through his windscreen or whatever, the fact is, you've got a tonne of steel with momentum at close quarters. Forgive me if I'm cynical in the belief that a bullet will physically stop it.
There is a saying that has been going around for a long time. "Better safe than sorry." Example: I was bitten twice last weekend by a chicken snake in tall grass.
<snip>
Anyway there are certain occasions when unveiling firearms can end a situation quickly. Looking at firearms as a means of destruction only is not the right way to think of there usage.
There probably are certain situations where that is the case, however, I'm yet to encounter one where it was necessary. Perhaps it's just a function of where I live, but as one other respondent suggested, if I lived in an area where I felt the need to carry a gun I'd simply move elsewhere. I don't need the stress or the hassle.
I would also argue that there are many, many other situations where brandishing a firearm is going to cause a situation to escalate and again, I don't need the stress.
randya
10-06-03, 10:07 PM
Whether or not you should cycle armed is beside the point. I like the idea that a driver should think about whether a cyclist is armed or not, prior to deciding whether or not to road rage on any given cyclist. Small arms are considered 'equalizers' for a reason, after all. Car/truck/SUV=WMD; an armed cyclist equals the equation. Let's keep the motorists guessing...
roadfix
10-06-03, 11:44 PM
Mr. Volvo........I ALWAYS carry a small loaded firearm, illegally here in CA, only under these conditions:
1) When I open and close my small businesses, which is almost everyday.
2) When I'm on a solo backcountry Mtb ride or bikepacking trip.
Mr. Volvo........looking at your avatar, I think we share the same classic film as our favourite.
George
khuon
10-07-03, 12:07 AM
I agree with the poster who says that carrying a handgun or even a high-powered rifle for purposes of self-defense in traffic is an act of futility.
/* sigh */
Over-reactionism without negligable effect.
I can just see the scene at the LBS now...
Ze twelve gauge ottoloh-dah.
Thats Italian. You want pump or auto?
Ze fort-dee-five longslide... with lazeh zighteng.
That's a good gun... you press the trigger and the beam comes on where you want the bullet to go. You can't miss. Anything else?
Phaaz'd plasmah rifle in ze forty whatt range.
Hey! Just what you see, pal...
Ze Ooooh-zhee, nine millah-meter.
You know your weapons, buddy. So uh, which will it be?
All.
I might close early today. That's a 15 day waiting list on the handguns, but the rifles you can take right now if you want...
Hey!!!
You can't do that-
WRONG.
/* Fade to black */
chewa
10-07-03, 02:00 AM
Whether or not you should cycle armed is beside the point. I like the idea that a driver should think about whether a cyclist is armed or not, prior to deciding whether or not to road rage on any given cyclist. Small arms are considered 'equalizers' for a reason, after all. Car/truck/SUV=WMD; an armed cyclist equals the equation. Let's keep the motorists guessing...
I don't think road rage involves much consideration Randya.
Personally I think it must be terrible to live in a culture of fear where you even consider "packing heat". It is fear that triggers this.
I commute 13 miles each way most days part along busy roads, part along secluded cyclepaths. I don't have the fear that someone is going to do me wrong and even if I did, carrying a handgun here is illegal and even if legal, something I would never consider.
I don't think that causes a problem because as a society we don't seem to be as fearful of violence or robbery or mugging as in certain parts of the US even thethough in some inner city areas we have similar crimes (thankfully with less weaponry).
Our Police are only armed in special circumstances and then only trained officers.
My view is that if you have to cycle with a firearm (other than as a defence against wild animals when touring) then give it up, because I wouldn't want to be so scared to cycle. Where is the enjoyment in that?
Just my opinion, but remember before flaming, I'm from a society where gun culture does not really exist, with much stricter controls on guns even before the Dunblane school shootings..
greywolf
10-07-03, 02:04 AM
Just as an anti-dote , we had a guy here in our area who's slightly intellectuly handicaped, he's not allowed to drive a motor vech. He makes a living cutting peoples lawns , he pulls a trailer with his motor mower , power edger,cans of gas, ect in it behind a mt bike,it takes him 2 hrs to get to his furthest customer.The other day he was crossing our harbour bridge (a hair raising experiance sometimes on a bike),when a passenger in a passing car shot him in the back with a hi powered air pistol , just for fun!! Unfortunatly he never got their rego.#. Fortunatly the guy was'nt seriously hurt . Just as well real sidearms are very hard to accquire ,legaly or illegaly here in NZ.
Hunter
10-07-03, 08:12 AM
Well this is certainly interesting. First, I have no problem with concealed carry where legal.
Second, Hunter, having tested rifles, shotguns, and handguns against vehicles (metal and glass) with our SWAT unit, I can tell you there is nothing you can carry on a bike to stop a car. Even with calibers that will penetrate an auto body, getting a sure stop is not easy. .50 sniper rifles with API and Raufoss will defeat light armor, but not tanks at any range, and weigh in the neighborhood of 30-40 pounds. Stopping a vehicle that is trying to run you down is a Hollywood fantasy.
GOOD on your first statement!
On your second point I guess I must have been misinformed by a USN UDT operator, especially when I saw the penetration on a training film.
Chris,
I never said that pointing a gun at a driver was sensible or rational to me.
FXjohn
10-07-03, 08:58 AM
I really feel sorry for those of you who live in areas that make you feel you need to carry a gun. Especially while out on a bike ride!!!! The concept blows me away.
Not that I think it's necessarily wrong to do so if it's really that bad in areas.... just seems like bizarro world to me.
I guess if it's legal to ride armed, it shouldn't be a concern.
None of us should even need to know if someone is armed or not, let's put it that way. Why be concerned if others want that security?
Fxjohn
Hunter
10-07-03, 11:23 AM
FX John there re those who do not see the point in firearms. They would rather see a disarmed society dependent on the good graces of others or the police to handle all matters of personal security. Frankly I depend on no one but myself to defend myself against threats to myself.
Some people think that just because you own firearms that you will pull and use it in any circumstance. They do not understand that the use of firearms for protection is a big descision. One that MOST people do not take lightly.
The idiotic few who use them as intimidation or to get what they want makes the responsible majority look like extremists. I however choose to make available all means neccessary to protect and defend me and my family in whatever means neccesary to end a situation.
Roughstuff
10-07-03, 11:38 AM
Some people think that just because you own firearms that you will pull and use it in any circumstance. They do not understand that the use of firearms for protection is a big descision. One that MOST people do not take lightly.
Well don't forget that most liberals get their concepts of what society is all about from watching television. Trigger happy gunslingers make not only big profits for Hollywood studios (who are notoriously right wing, as we all know...warning! warning! sarcasm! see politics forum...) but feed perfectly into their agenda of presenting gun owners as irresponsible rednecks.
On my world tour I never carried a gun. Having no firearm training and not a very quick draw, thats probably just as well.
roughstuff
georgesnatcher
10-07-03, 12:17 PM
Having carried a gun 24/7 for 20 years I can tell you without hesitation that there is nothing you can carry on a bike short of a LAW rocket that will stop a car. Further the odds are that unless you are properly and highly trained the odds are if you decide to use a gun you will miss. Now what about the poor schmuck in the car 1/4 mile down the road who you just bullseyed because you saw one to many action/adventure flicks.
SD Fixed
10-07-03, 01:09 PM
Chris,
There are many firearms that will in CQ stop vehicles.
(blah blah blah)
Anyway there are certain occasions when unveiling firearms can end a situation quickly. Looking at firearms as a means of destruction only is not the right way to think of there usage.
With out trying to be to harsh hunter, your post is utterly silly.
You can argue that there are weapons capable of stopping a vehicle, and you're correct. But you missed the point, and then missed the point again.
None of them are pratical for carry on a bike.
Not many of your average cyclist are capable of knowing exactly when and how to use such a weapon against a car.
Despite even the knowledge of when and how, to be able to so this on a bike in such a situation would put other people in danger.
And the situations where a car driver does such a thing to do this is so rare, that it's ridiculous to advocate such an issue.
Unvieling firearms to "end a situation" is probably an indication of:
Stupidity because it 99% of the time is a situation that was escalated by both sides.
A big showing of "My penis is bigger than yours".
Indicates that many times, the person holding is out for a fight.
I'm sure many attacks will follow. But let me say, I own fire arms, use them often for sport, I believe fully in self defense when required, I'm active duty USN, and I have lived and riden in some of the worst crime areas there are.
There has been 0 times where a fire arm was needed. A crook on foot? I'll be damned if I'm not a WHOLE lot faster on bike. A crook on bike in traffic? Sure as hell I can weave and get to a public place. Enranged driver? Shooting the car wouldn't have stopped his intention. Leaving the scene was appropriate. Come back with the police, it's thier job.
By advocating your extreme view, you make it easy for the anti gun loby to indicate how looney some people are.
Have a good day.
gonesh9
10-07-03, 01:17 PM
FX John there re those who do not see the point in firearms. They would rather see a disarmed society dependent on the good graces of others or the police to handle all matters of personal security.
Some of us do not see a point in firearms because we don't live where there is any need for them. I happen to think it would be fine to carry a firearm if where you live was so bad that you felt you needed to. That is why I feel sorry for those of you who do. I just wonder why, if it is really that bad where you are, why you don't just move to one of the many areas where you would not have to hassle with carrying a gun. I think where I live, the chances of some random accident or incident occuring where having a gun would be helpful are so slim that it is certainly not worth the extra weight or hassle.
FXjohn
10-07-03, 01:29 PM
With out trying to be to harsh hunter, your post is utterly silly.
You can argue that there are weapons capable of stopping a vehicle, and you're correct. But you missed the point, and then missed the point again.
None of them are pratical for carry on a bike.
Maybe I am missing something, but I can't think anyone would pull a weapon WHILE RIDING. That would be dumb IMO
I would think it would be more for a person stopped and outside their vehicle or on foot trying to mess with you, rob you or whatever.
FXjohn
Hunter
10-07-03, 04:52 PM
With out trying to be to harsh hunter, your post is utterly silly.
You can argue that there are weapons capable of stopping a vehicle, and you're correct. But you missed the point, and then missed the point again.
None of them are pratical for carry on a bike.
And the situations where a car driver does such a thing to do this is so rare, that it's ridiculous to advocate such an issue.
Unvieling firearms to "end a situation" is probably an indication of:
Stupidity because it 99% of the time is a situation that was escalated by both sides.
A big showing of "My penis is bigger than yours".
Indicates that many times, the person holding is out for a fight.
By advocating your extreme view, you make it easy for the anti gun loby to indicate how looney some people are.
Have a good day.
Will,
I never said anything about the practicality of carrying vehicle stopping weapons on a bike. I also did not in any way advocate the usage of weapons to stop cars. Also you missed the point of to "end a situation." I never said anything about "unveiling firearms" to end situations. However if some loser broke in my house with the intention of shooting me and my wife to obtain his or her goal I would without question drop him or her where he or she stands. In doing so I do not see how this would be escalated by me. I would merely stop it from going further.
SD Fixed
10-07-03, 05:28 PM
Will,
I never said anything about the practicality of carrying vehicle stopping weapons on a bike. I also did not in any way advocate the usage of weapons to stop cars. Also you missed the point of to "end a situation." I never said anything about "unveiling firearms" to end situations. However if some loser broke in my house with the intention of shooting me and my wife to obtain his or her goal I would without question drop him or her where he or she stands. In doing so I do not see how this would be escalated by me. I would merely stop it from going further.
Hunter,
Perhaps I'm confused, easily so sometimes. However, the whole point of this thread was about carrying weapons on bikes. Then, you posted this long section about situations, capabilites. It is assumed it has to do with the topic at hand, which is a post about weapons on bikes.
You did say something about unveiling firearms to end situastions. Please take the time to read your previous post over, I quoted your statement with that one in mind.
IRT someone in your house, this has little, actually, nothing to do with the topic at hand, which is weapons on bikes.
Either your backpeddling or you just drivelled all over in this post with out thinking about what the post is about.
Either way..
JoeTown244GL
10-07-03, 06:45 PM
Let's say I'm biking down the road alone on a very flat and desolate rural stretch of highway on the great American prairie when two inbred NASCAR fans pass me in a pickup and hurl a full soda bottle at my head at 70 mph. I don't see it but I get to feel its impact. As they slow to see my reaction and chuckle I flick the welcome to New York greeting on impulse.
They decide to double back as no one else is on the road but them and me. They are enjoying this. They like the pain of others. Now I'm on a bike with a half a can of halt and the rednecks may have anything in that truck with them. They are two large aggressive people. They have a powerful truck; the tactical advantage and they are headed straight for me. Remember they have already assaulted you. They have already shown you that they don't care about you as a person. What to you do?
1. Take an asswhooping and feel all Gandhi-like in the hospital - if you live?
2. Whip out your cell phone and hope the sheriff gets there before your corpse gets cold?
3. Run away in either direction on your bike at 23mph and hope the sheriff gets there before your corpse gets cold?
4. Pray to a kind and loving God (pick one) and hope the sheriff gets there before your corpse gets cold?
5. Stand your ground and hope they don't feel like killing today. But know the power to harm you is totally in their hands.
6. Grip your pistol in your left rear jersey pocket and hope they don't continue to approach. If they continue to approach, pull your pistol and aim at the driver’s head. If they continue to approach fire the weapon fire at the driver's head until he or you are dead.
This exact situation happened to me as I just described. I'll let you guess which choice I made. Feel free to discuss, but let's keep this exchange civil like it has been so far.
As to those of you who don't live in a bike-hostile culture: More power to you. I'm glad to see that you can enjoy your rides in peace. However, where I live the prols are armed, mean, agressive and not too bright.
It comes down to this: I'm not going to quit riding and I'm not going to be a victim either.
BTW - It was a Mountain Dew Code Red.
pointyhead
10-07-03, 06:47 PM
I was loath to join this fray, but I feel I need to point out that a lot of people seem to be missing the point about being armed while cycling. No one ever said that you could stop a car with a gun. That is patently ridiculous. My reason for carrying is simple. Should I get into a altercation, not of my choosing, that esclates to the point that I am threatened with bodily harm, then I have one more recourse available to me to protect myself.
Simple as that.
And remember, if you find yourself in a situation that requires deadly force, you'll have to wait around for someone WITH A GUN to show up and stop it.
LittleBigMan
10-07-03, 07:10 PM
"In fact I'm going to wager some bike-hating creep eventually catches a round or two and goes down with a look of surprise on his face."
Imagine the suprised look on your face when they send you to prison, where you can't ride your bike.
LittleBigMan
10-07-03, 07:14 PM
Let's say I'm biking down the road alone on a very flat and desolate rural stretch of highway on the great American prairie when two inbred NASCAR fans pass me in a pickup and hurl a full soda bottle at my head at 70 mph. I don't see it but I get to feel its impact. As they slow to see my reaction and chuckle I flick the welcome to New York greeting on impulse.
They decide to double back as no one else is on the road but them and me. They are enjoying this. They like the pain of others. Now I'm on a bike with a half a can of halt and the rednecks may have anything in that truck with them. They are two large aggressive people. They have a powerful truck; the tactical advantage and they are headed straight for me. Remember they have already assaulted you. They have already shown you that they don't care about you as a person. What to you do?
I read a story about a man who started carrying a gun while riding because bunch of rednecks in a pickup kept throwing glass bottles at him (and cutting him) while he was riding.
He was ready this time. He pulled his gun--they shot the hell out of him. Somehow, he lived.
My advice, young man--ask this fellow if a gun helped protect him.
JoeTown244GL
10-07-03, 07:36 PM
I read a story about a man who started carrying a gun while riding because bunch of rednecks in a pickup kept throwing glass bottles at him (and cutting him) while he was riding.
He was ready this time. He pulled his gun--they shot the hell out of him. Somehow, he lived.
My advice, young man--ask this fellow if a gun helped protect him.
Thanks for your understanding and your kind words of helpful advice. :rolleyes:
LittleBigMan
10-07-03, 07:41 PM
Thanks for your understanding and your kind words of helpful advice. :rolleyes:
If you want to go and a) get yourself shot to pieces, or b) go to jail for shooting someone else, that's your choice. Don't say I didn't warn you.
JoeTown244GL
10-07-03, 08:05 PM
If you want to go and a) get yourself shot to pieces, or b) go to jail for shooting someone else, that's your choice. Don't say I didn't warn you.
You seem to have such a concern for my safety. Yet you don't want me to have access to a tool that I judge could potential save my life? What is the deal? I find your lack of trust in my judgment odd. Is it politically motivated? Does my taking responsiblity for my own personal safety violate a paradigm of yours? What it the real reason for your position? Is it a fear of guns or is it a fear of people?
Should I just take the abuse and assults? Really. I'm telling you it is hostile where I live and ride and the cops can't or won't offer any real protection. So what do you suggest I do? Really. Try offering a solution.
LittleBigMan
10-07-03, 08:16 PM
You seem to have such a concern for my safety.
Try offering a solution.
I am. I did: don't carry a gun.
Please, don't misinterpret me. I was sent to the hospital by a pedestrian who attacked me while I rode home. A gun would never have helped. When you're on two wheels, you have to stop before using a weapon.
I am only thinking of you, and those who might be persuaded by your arguments. I am not "anti-gun," or "politically motivated." I am using my noggin.
FXjohn
10-07-03, 08:57 PM
Please, don't misinterpret me. I was sent to the hospital by a pedestrian who attacked me while I rode home. A gun would never have helped. When you're on two wheels, you have to stop before using a weapon.
That's obvious that you have to dismount. That would be the first thing I would do in any situation where I felt I needed to defend myself. Your story isn't the end all and be all of any situation someone might encounter. We have heard stories where having a gun defused a situation. Using one to escalate is obviously wrong., But what is the solution? Pray for mercy from violent people??
Equalize the sitaution? It is a matter of each person to choose what is right for them.
FXjohn
Hunter
10-08-03, 07:43 AM
Hunter,
Perhaps I'm confused, easily so sometimes. However, the whole point of this thread was about carrying weapons on bikes. Then, you posted this long section about situations, capabilites. It is assumed it has to do with the topic at hand, which is a post about weapons on bikes.
You did say something about unveiling firearms to end situastions. Please take the time to read your previous post over, I quoted your statement with that one in mind.
IRT someone in your house, this has little, actually, nothing to do with the topic at hand, which is weapons on bikes.
Either your backpeddling or you just drivelled all over in this post with out thinking about what the post is about.
Either way..
Look man I am not going to argue with you over this. I merely addressed points that some brought up. I really do not want to hear all your off topic stuff considering you are guilty of it as well o.k.? Anyway what I said about ending a situation was "I however choose to make available all means neccessary to protect and defend me and my family in whatever means neccesary to end a situation."
Now there is NOTHING there that says or specifically mentions "unveiling firearms."
It appears to me that things that are said get interpreted the way people want it to be without a clear understanding of what is written.
Ebbtide
10-08-03, 08:46 AM
I am very surprised that 43% of you would rather die, or watch a loved one die because "A gun is not for me no matter what the situation".
Is that an incorrect assumption on my part?
shaharidan
10-08-03, 09:05 AM
the reason i dont carry a gun, is if i did i'd have probably allready shot several people, and even though they were being jerks they probably didnt deserve to be shot.
chewa
10-08-03, 09:15 AM
I am very surprised that 43% of you would rather die, or watch a loved one die because "A gun is not for me no matter what the situation".
Is that an incorrect assumption on my part?
Yes, and simplistic too.
Ebbtide
10-08-03, 09:44 AM
Yes, and simplistic too.
Whew, that comforting.
SD Fixed
10-08-03, 09:48 AM
Now there is NOTHING there that says or specifically mentions "unveiling firearms."
Here Hunter let me spell this out. You said, on post #5 of this post (read it, please):
Anyway there are certain occasions when unveiling firearms can end a situation quickly. Looking at firearms as a means of destruction only is not the right way to think of there usage.
So, whatever, right?
Have a nice day!
Hunter
10-08-03, 10:00 AM
Ok. You got me there so I guess then I am a extremist right? However I guess you will read out of that what you will the key word there is CERTAIN. You being in the USN should know this but I guess not.
joeprim
10-08-03, 10:08 AM
There are places where I carry a gun - one that go off in a crash. It is not that I think that it could over come the momentium of an SUV. Usually I leave snakes alone although I did shoot a poisonious one that was too close to my daughter (2 yr old at the time). Rabid raccoons and foxes are possible however as I guess are dogs.
I don't believe that the possibility of the cyclest having a gun would worry a road rage type a whole lot. It has been shown the feer of the victum having a gun does reduce muggings so if I were worried about that I might include that as a reason to carry more often.
Like Sam said back country and sometimes in totally new places it seems prudent to carry the extra few ozs.
Joe
SD Fixed
10-08-03, 11:15 AM
Ok. You got me there so I guess then I am a extremist right? However I guess you will read out of that what you will the key word there is CERTAIN. You being in the USN should know this but I guess not.
I don't believe you are an extremist, however, I believe that your comments are posted out of context with the intent of the post. A long with that, comments such as you made, it's easy for the extremest on the other side (read pro gun control, pro gun banning) to use your comments as "some gun people want to carry guns on bikes to shoot at cars".
Now, rules of engagement are completely different, I'm not sure if you've ever served in the military, but rules of engagement are.. odd at best. It's different from when you're on watch on the quarterdeck, gaurding a pier, on a rhib to meo ops, etc.
But at anyrate, what I was trying to point out is that you're off topic on this and giving fuel to the fire of extremist who'd like to remove our RIGHT to keep and use arms.
Ebbtide
10-08-03, 02:37 PM
William Karsten,
What do you do in the Navy?
OT I know, just wondering since you brought it up.
ehenz
USN Veteran
SD Fixed
10-08-03, 02:58 PM
William Karsten,
What do you do in the Navy?
OT I know, just wondering since you brought it up.
ehenz
USN Veteran
What ever they tell me to.. :D
CarlJStoneham
10-08-03, 03:50 PM
One likely scenario? You'll be run off the road and then shot with your own handgun. The majority of people shot in robberies were shot with their own gun...
LittleBigMan
10-08-03, 05:23 PM
I don't carry a gun when I ride. I can't speak for anyone else, but for me, carrying a gun on my bike would be just a little more useful than carrying 3/4 of a pound of sand.
I can't imagine riding through area so dangerous as to need a gun. Why not use your brain instead, and move?
chewa
10-09-03, 01:28 AM
Whew, that comforting.
I could just as easily have said "So those who are always armed would gladly have their loved one killed while cleaning the gun, while finding it by mistake in the house, or in the course of an argument".
That's simplistic too, but we both know the whole area is more complicated than that.
What are the statistical risks of being robbed at gunpoint or shot as compared to the risk of you or a member of your family being killed by your own gun.?
JoeTown244GL
10-09-03, 07:21 AM
The majority of people shot in robberies were shot with their own gun...
Care to source this "fact"? I'd love to know how and where this is documented. Thank you in advance.
Ebbtide
10-09-03, 09:08 AM
I could just as easily have said "So those who are always armed would gladly have their loved one killed while cleaning the gun, while finding it by mistake in the house, or in the course of an argument".
"A gun is not for me in any situation" speaks for itself. If a respondent indicates this as their answer knowing that there is a situation where a gun would be the prudent tool to use, then the respondent is not being honest.
That's simplistic too, but we both know the whole area is more complicated than that.
No, it is simple. In the U.S. we have the God given right to arm ourselves. It is the prerogative of the individual if they carry or not. Now, trying to change or control the Right is complicated, but I did not think we were talking about Rights.
What are the statistical risks of being robbed at gunpoint or shot as compared to the risk of you or a member of your family being killed by your own gun.?
Both are statistically insignificant, but you are many, many times more likely to be a victim of armed robbery (or worse) than the later.
ehenz
Edit: Having trouble with the new quote feature for some reason, please bear with me :D