Foo - Scenario

A tragic accident happens to someone you care about dearly. A stranger responds to that accident and tends to that person helping the best they can. They contact you to notify you of the incident. You realize that their actions were clearly something that prevented something way worse from happening.

You begin to form a friendship with that person, thinking that this person is a Godsend, liking them more and more as you get to know each other.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Until you find out that this person was involved something terribly awful. So awful that you know otherwise you would NEVER EVER associate with this person. But in the meantime, if you never found out, you would still be forming a closeness with this person.

How would you react, what would your thinking be?

Best to keep a respectable distance.

A tragic accident happens to someone you care about dearly. A stranger responds to that accident and tends to that person helping the best they can. They contact you to notify you of the incident. You realize that their actions were clearly something that prevented something way worse from happening.

You begin to form a friendship with that person, thinking that this person is a Godsend, liking them more and more as you get to know each other.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Until you find out that this person was involved something terribly awful. So awful that you know otherwise you would NEVER EVER associate with this person. But in the meantime, if you never found out, you would still be forming a closeness with this person.

How would you react, what would your thinking be?

How recent was this act?? If it was something a long time ago, WHO CARES!! Everyone has a past. Unless they murdered someone or something like that.

It really depends on the situation. :)

That what is in the past cannot be changed, but this person can change FROM what he/she was before.


What are they now? (I am NOT asking particulars, just asking you to assess)
Have they changed?
If so, don't they deserve some benefit of the doubt?
Are they really still that person they once were?



To err is human and to forgive, divine, as the saying goes. Just beware that trust extended can be violated....go slow (hypothetically speaking ;) )
A tragic accident happens to someone you care about dearly. A stranger responds to that accident and tends to that person helping the best they can. They contact you to notify you of the incident. You realize that their actions were clearly something that prevented something way worse from happening.

You begin to form a friendship with that person, thinking that this person is a Godsend, liking them more and more as you get to know each other.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Until you find out that this person was involved something terribly awful. So awful that you know otherwise you would NEVER EVER associate with this person. But in the meantime, if you never found out, you would still be forming a closeness with this person.

How would you react, what would your thinking be?

Best to keep a respectable distance.

Good words.

earlier this week i ate dinner with a devout catholic who is a buddy and a nazi from germany who was in town to visit family

no kidding

so people can learn to look past their differences and share common goals to make things work

but best to tread carefully and walk softly and be respectfully distant

BEER!

Fixed. :p

Wow, so much to think about, and the word DEPENDS stands out here to me. How much risk are you willing to accept, how long ago was the incident, what do you think of that particular crime, is the recitivism rate high/low?

So Siu, examine all the facts and still let your feelings have a say, but be careful.

One last question here, Do you feel he/she deserves another chance?

Steven

No benefit of doubt because they know them self what what happened. I believe this person wants to change, is trying to change but still... what they were involved in is almost unforgivable by almost anyone. It has to be forgiven from elsewhere, or if anything from deep inside them self. This happened not too long ago. A few years.

And yes, I think this person deserves another chance.

A tragic accident happens to someone you care about dearly. A stranger responds to that accident and tends to that person helping the best they can. They contact you to notify you of the incident. You realize that their actions were clearly something that prevented something way worse from happening.

You begin to form a friendship with that person, thinking that this person is a Godsend, liking them more and more as you get to know each other.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Until you find out that this person was involved something terribly awful. So awful that you know otherwise you would NEVER EVER associate with this person. But in the meantime, if you never found out, you would still be forming a closeness with this person.

How would you react, what would your thinking be?

You have to be true to yourself. You've answered your own question... "NEVER EVER" is pretty straightforward.

snip his balls off with a sharp object.

No benefit of doubt because they know them self what what happened. I believe this person wants to change, is trying to change but still... what they were involved in is almost unforgivable by almost anyone. It has to be forgiven from elsewhere, or if anything from deep inside them self. This happened not too long ago. A few years.

And yes, I think this person deserves another chance.

Unless if it was harming a child, but if the person has decided to go on the straight path, I say give them a shot, but........keep a watchful eye.

My only real advice is.. please don't be alone with this person Siu. I know there are tons of creeps out there that like to take advantage of your goodness, please don't let it happen. :)

How recent was this act?? If it was something a long time ago, WHO CARES!! Everyone has a past. Unless they murdered someone or something like that.

It really depends on the situation. :)

straight and to the point...and exactly how I feel. My past is sketchy at best, people that judge me loose my respect. Its not their place. This especially applies if they have learned from their mistakes.

Now, if this is a core moral value where "they" would still perform the same way, and "your" value is still different, then that is another issue altogether. Its possible its a chance for growth on your part.

But then again, differences create more interesting relationships than similarities. Maybe you should not look at it as a purely black and white situation, maybe there were cirumstances involved you cant understand.

As a last "view"...if this is morally reprehensible (I have values/offences I CAN'T forgive), then toss him.

As you can see, it depends on the "problem"..black and white doesn't exist.

My only real advice is.. please don't be alone with this person Siu. I know there are tons of creeps out there that like to take advantage of your goodness, please don't let it happen. :)

You seem to more than us...unfair advantage. :p

Depends on what it was and how it changed them.

straight and to the point...and exactly how I feel. My past is sketchy at best, people that judge me loose my respect. Its not their place. This especially applies if they have learned from their mistakes.

Now, if this is a core moral value where "they" would still perform the same way, and "your" value is still different, then that is another issue altogether. Its possible its a chance for growth on your part.

But then again, differences create more interesting relationships than similarities. Maybe you should not look at it as a purely black and white situation, maybe there were cirumstances involved you cant understand.

As a last "view"...if this is morally reprehensible (I have values/offences I CAN'T forgive), then toss him.

As you can see, it depends on the "problem"..black and white doesn't exist.

This is my struggle. :(

I'd nuke it from orbit, it would be the only way to be sure.

I'd get a couple of books on sociopathy and narcissism and read them--
and then take a hard look at said person and decide if they fit the
diagnosis. Some personality disorders are really, really durable.
I'm not giving this diagnosis--I ain't no shrink, but doing evil things suggests the possibility
of sociopathy or narcissism.

But this is all very weird and hard to quantify without more facts.
I've read a lot about this stuff, took classes on it in law school--and
I have very uncanny intuition about people--so I seldom get hustled--
but some would say I am too suspicious.

Dr. Robert Hare's book is good, there are lots of things on the web.
A hallmark of a sociopathic hustle is that the person is able to intuit
and tell you what you want to hear--to make you feel understood--
to give the appearance of listening and to win your confidence. This
is eerily close to a real connection but the difference is the lack of empathy
and the instrumental way sociopaths will use the connection they make
you feel.

I say that in the end you have to stand back from how you feel about a person
and look for a pattern. Get all the facts you can about a person. Do they
consistently act in a reasonable way with one or two big eff ups? Or do they
consistently act in a way that is manipulative and claim that they want to get better.
The latter is a red flag. The former is probably just being human.

This is of course without specifics. However some things can only be changed on the surface. A sexual predator will always have those tendencies. A child molester will always have those tendencies. An alcoholic can fight the urges quite successfully but especially if they have a violent past are one drink from becoming the person they used to be.

You are a very loving and caring person. People who manipulate will easily seek out your goodness because most others won't accept them. But then they're in a position to take advantage.

How close do you have to be? Do they have to know where you live? Do they have to know where you work? Do they have to know personal details of your life?

Perhaps (again, not knowing this may or may not be the case) they are trying to fight their path. Or maybe that past is them and they're just fighting to put a different face on.

This is my struggle. :(

Then that is your answer.

Try to imagine yourself with this person and these circumstances down the road....

Will it cause problems? BIG problems? If so, it won't be worth it....heartache will abound...or worse....

Try to imagine yourself with this person and these circumstances down the road....

Will it cause problems? BIG problems? If so, it won't be worth it....heartache will abound...or worse....

Indeed.

Can you step back and see if you are being manipulated? There are certain things which are almost impossible for someone to change--being a paedophile seems to be something which has almost a 100% recidivism rate.

I think I would go with 'keep a respectable distance', and watch for signs of being manipulated.

East Hill

I'd be comfortable knowing that I probably did something much worse.

snip his balls off with a sharp object.

Careful, Jon. How do you know she isn't talking about you?

I try not to judge people, but if I must, then I judge them based upon their results in the present and in the future. Who people are is not their past, but potential and possibilities for the future.

I try not to judge people, but if I must, then I judge them based upon their results in the present and in the future. Who people are is not their past, but potential and possibilities for the future.

+1 the past...the good, the bad and the ugly, are what help shape us into what we are today and in the future. Everybody makes mistakes...even major league nasty mistakes - it's how we learn from those mistakes and change our lives going forward that counts in the present.

There's the question you gotta answer, Siu...is the past act you find so disgusting an indication of who this person used to be, or who he/she is today?

Level with us...you've met Pete Rose, right? :eek:

I think I would go with 'keep a respectable distance', and watch for signs of being manipulated.

A successful manipulator doesn't let their mark know they're being manipulated. If this deed was very bad and they're back out on the streets I'd say they're a pretty good manipulator.

A successful manipulator doesn't let their mark know they're being manipulated. If this deed was very bad and they're back out on the streets I'd say they're a pretty good manipulator.

That's why it's important to step back and look from a distance. Siu may need to talk to someone privately about what has happened, to see whether or not one of us would agree.

East Hill

I try not to judge people, but if I must, then I judge them based upon their results in the present and in the future. Who people are is not their past, but potential and possibilities for the future.

This is great on paper - but doesn't always work. Jeffrey Dahmer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Dahmer) was able to sweet talk his way out of a few situations:


In the early morning hours of May 30, 1991, fourteen-year-old Konerak Sinthasomphone (the younger brother of the boy whom Dahmer had molested) was discovered on the street, wandering nude and under heavy influence of drugs. Reports of the boy's injuries varied. Dahmer told police that they had an argument while drinking, and that Sinthasomphone was his 19-year-old boyfriend. Against the teenager's protests, police turned him over to Dahmer. They later reported smelling a strange scent but did not investigate it. It was later found to be bodies in the back of his room. Later that night, Dahmer killed and dismembered Sinthasomphone, keeping his skull as a souvenir.

John Balcerzak and Joseph Gabrish, the two police officers who returned Sinthasomphone to Dahmer, were fired from the Milwaukee Police Department after their actions were widely publicized, including an audiotape of the officers making homophobic statements to their dispatcher and laughing about having reunited the "lovers", as a form of sarcasm. The two officers appealed their termination and were reinstated with back pay. They were named officers of the year by the police union. Balcerzak would go on to be elected president of the Milwaukee Police Association in May 2005.[2][3]


By your claim after he said he was sorry and he was baptized he could have been easily released back into society to live out his days in a productive manner. I doubt anyone would have been comfortable with that.

This is great on paper - but doesn't always work.

Nothing always works...you gotta use your best judgment and roll the dice - there are no guarantees. You can run someone through all the 'tests' our evil little minds can come up with, but in the end, at some point, you either gotta decide to toss em, or take a leap of faith and trust em. No relationship can be successful if there is a continual lack of trust.

Very true!

If you have to ask these questions, then you know the answer. Some people trust easily and some people don't. Neither is right or wrong. Based on the fact that this persons previous actions offend your morality, you should let this ship sail IMHO. If it is an issue now, that little voice of doubt will always be in your head.

I would remain friends, but would not marry this person.

I would go for a combination of Maelstrom and Kaiju-san's advice.

Again, is the crime one of those with a high recitivism rate? Some crimes of passion are really a one time shot but can seem so bad, whereas sex crimes continue.

Siu, you are having not only second thoughts but thirds and more, you should be oh so very careful here and I for one don't want you to get hurt in any way.

So for the good of Foo, don't do it.

Steven

Until you find out that this person was involved something terribly awful. So awful that you know otherwise you would NEVER EVER associate with this person.

if it's that bad, then it's that bad.

there are some things that are unforgivable. murder and **** come to mind.

just about anything else, i could get past.

but you need to make the best decision for your own mental and physical well-being.

Siu, your moral compass is pretty well calibrated. When you say that this person has done something reprehensible, that says a lot. A whole lot. The fact that this person did the right thing vis-a-vis your friend does not change that. Hitler was kind to his dogs - doesn't change the fact that he was Hitler. Do not forget that Lucifer was also and angel.

There are enough good people in the world that you do not need a friend with this much baggage. FWIW, I think the better part of valor is to break the ties.

And never forget that there is a far worse thing than being alone, and that is being with the wrong person/people.

Okay everyone.

I'm hearing you..........

I think it's better to just slowly let him go. Even though he may have been involved (unknowingly?) he still associated with the people that for sure had a larger part of the deal. This was all in ill will and if it was in him to have the desire to hang around with these people, there was something lacking within him that would tell him not to - to be strong enough to disassociate himself from them.

I wonder if he would still have changed if he would not have been "pointed out".






Thank you everyone.
I really do appreciate this. ((hugs))

Sorry to say, I think that is the right call, Siu. Doesn;'t make it any easier, though. <<hugs>>



After all, isn't Jon enough of a reclamation project? :rolleyes:

I wonder if he would still have changed if he would not have been "pointed out".



Does he know that you are aware of his apparent transgression? If not, perhaps you could wait for a short period to see if he approaches you about it, and make your decision based on that?

East Hill