My wife and I got into tandems within the past year or so. We now have a Co-Motion Primera, which is the low end of the CoMo line, but we find it to be very nice. There are really only two things that I think about changing: the triple crankset (which I hate) and the wheels. I will leave the triple questions for a future post.
I have ridden tubulars for 30 years; just never got any clinchers until the tandem. I raced from 1978 to 1983, and appreciate what light wheels can do. My wife as well (our single bikes were identically equipped for ease of replacement). I build my own wheels, and the cost of built-up high end wheels of any type these days is staggering.
When I first got into tandems, I thought monster 40-spoke lead flywheels was just something I would have to live with. (The CoMo has Velocity Dyads) But I see fancy Rolf tandem wheels and wonder. Are they worth the $850 or so? Or the Bontrager's at $650? One thing is certain, my wallet would be lighter.
We contest sprints on the tandem in our group. Typically, we are the only tandem, especially this time of year. We work hard to stay with the lead on the climbs (mild, in this area). We aren't particularly heavy (maybe 280 pounds max for the team). So I am just wondering whether we will feel the wheels. Or is a tandem just so much that the wheels can't make the same kind of difference as on a single?
Appreciate any comments, especially from tandems that have made the switch.
The BikeForums Team
-adv-
This is an archived thread, you can find the full version of this thread, with images, links and more content here.
Lighter wheels with lower drag do for tandems what they do for single bikes...
At 280lbs, you can get a way with all sorts of spiffy wheel options like a set of 1,860g Rolfs for about $950 MSRP, or a conventionally built lightweight wheelset that's easier to live with for your day-to-day riding needs. It's not all that hard to get down to 1,800 grams with a White Ind tandem hubset, Velocity Fusion Rim, and standard DB spokes that give you most of the benefits for county line sprints and climbing that a Rolf will, short of that extra little boost you'd get in a time trial from the lower spoke count / aero features. The Bontragers are a different animal from the Rolfs in that they are not all that much lighter than most stock tandem wheels. They look cool, are pretty durable, and have some of the same aero benefits of the Rolfs, but the scales don't lie.
Here's a link to a prior posting where I listed some wheel weights that compared the various low-spoke count integrated wheelsets to some of the conventional ones. The Deep-V weights are probably understated by as much as 100g as they've apparently increased the mass of their rims over the past several years based on a comparison of my newer spare rims with one of my original '02 versions. Rolf has also shaved a few more grams off their wheels for '08 by going to a shorter deep section with a wider brake track. http://www.bikeforums.net/showpost.php?p=2554831&postcount=6
For reference purposes, we've been running 2,259 gram 36h Phil Wood / Velocity Deep-V wheelset on one of our tandems since '02 in parallel with another running what are probably about a 2,000 gram set of 36h White Ind / Velocity Deep-V wheelsets. The lighter wheelset is definitely more spry off the line and makes climbing a bit easier on the really steep stuff, but just rolling along there isn't much of a difference. We've recently put a set of the low-spoke count racing wheels on our newest tandem and there's no doubt about it: you can feel that they are lighter and do for the tandem what my Campy Eurus wheels do on my single bikes: they just feel faster.
Now, here's the down side to the high-end wheels: If you do all of your training and group rides on these wheels will they make you faster, or will they just make it easier for you to ride at the same tempo you were with your heavier wheels? Logic would suggest that it would be more beneficial to train on heavier and less aero wheel. Therefore, unless you were really in it for the bling, I would reserve the use of the lighter and more aerodynamic wheels like Rolfs for those times when their performance improvements can yield a short-term boost in your performance, be it at a time trial, sanctioned race, or just a special event when you really want to be as fast as you can be. Moreover, given that these types of wheels are very expensive to fix once they fall out of warranty coverage, using them for daily use increases the likelihood that they'll get dinged or simply wear out sooner than they would if held in reserve for the aforementioned special occasions.
Yes, I know the marketing data suggests the Rolfs, Topolinos, and 160mm Shimano/Santana Sweet 16's are strong enough for every day use... which may be true in some respects. However, are they the most practical for every day use? Obviously, I'm not a dealer...
Just something to think about. Again, I've finally broken down a picked up a set of the low-spoke count racing wheels to experiment with; however, I also have a set of conventionally built 36h wheels that will be used for most of our base mileage, social rides, and travel / touring while the low-spoke count racing wheels will only be called upon for tandem rallies or other times when we might want to take advantage of the performance boost, albeit small, to help us hang with the big dogs just a little bit longer before getting dropped. Well, that and they just look dead sexy, so what the heck, eh?
In closing, there's lots of previous discussion topics in the archives regarding these types of wheelsets. Just do a search using terms like Rolf, Topolino, Bontrager, limit the search to the tandem group and you'll likely find more information and comments to take under consideration as you ponder what to do about fitting wheels that are perhaps a bit more sporty that the OEM Co-Mo (DT-Swiss) / Velocity Dyad wheelset that came on your Primera. In a perfect world, having two sets of wheels for your tandem is the ideal scenario and the Rolf's so far seem to be a good choice for that special, go-fast wheelset, short of some of the really expensive, exotic stuff that might be used for National Tandem Time Trials.
merlinextraligh
at your team weight, you could build up some Zipp 404 Clydesdale rims on a 145mm hub.
twilkins9076
I asked that same question late last summer after we found that we had cracked a rim and were going to be spending money on wheels anyway. What it boiled down to for us is that if we went ahead and put some high-end wheels on the bike, we would have ended up with a fairly heavy entry level tandem (Burley Duet) with fancy wheels that probably wouldn't give us a noticeable advantage so we opted to build up a set of Mavic rims on our existing hubs. Even though we are similar in team weight to you, I appreciate the confidence that our 36 spoke wheelset gives us in our daily abuse of the bike.
For what it's worth, there is a couple in town who use Rolf's as their only wheelset who are quite a bit heavier than we are and they've had at least a couple of broken spokes that I know of on their rear wheel. While the Rolf's seem to be great wheels and look really cool, I think they're not necessarily the right wheel for every application...and ours called for something different.
Thigh Master
Thanks for this post. I'm also seeking information about wheels for our tandem.
QUESTION: We are a big team (combined rider weight = 440 lbs), riding a 1997 Burley Duet with Sun rims and Shimano hubs. I'm interested in making our hunky Duet feel a bit more spry, especially on the hills. Any suggestions for an improved daily wheel set or would you all vote for keeping the Sun/Shimano set-up that came with the bike?
AND... how much difference switching from 28c to narrower tire - safety/ride quality vs little quicker ride?
MB1
The things sure are expensive. OTOH where else do you get a chance to really spend some quality exercise time working together with the SO? About the only thing I have ever found that is similar is a double scull where the couple is working together as a team to contribute to the overall result/speed.
Until we picked up some fancy wheels (Shimano 16s) with our new tandem I never figured that they were going to live up to the hype. Well I am here to tell you they do-if speed is what turns you on. They are not going to make much difference below 15 mph but at higher speeds the difference is remarkable and of course the internal feedback you get knowing you are going faster spurs you on to even greater efforts and speed. Probably explains why my legs have been hurting so much lately.
Durability of tandem parts is and has always been a concern. I figure to keep my eye on the things and replace/repair as needed. I am pretty much willing to go to the well as much as it takes to keep having this much fun with the wife and since going fast is so much fun I don't see any reason to not run the wheels until they die. Expecting to get 1-2 years of hard use out of a set of performance wheels on a full or half bike seems ok to me.
merlinextraligh
We now have our Robusta with Rolf wheels. Have put about 500 miles on them so far, and have given them some hard use (descending at speed, riding doubletrack off road, cornering on racing type traing rides, and contesting city limit sign sprints.)
So far so good. I have not found them to be overly flexible at all. The only time I really have felt any flex was climbing out of the saddle up a short extremely steep section that we were muscling up, and I'm not sure how much of the flex was compressing the tire, as oppossed to wheel flex.
The bike handles very well, and will carve a line at speed. I don't feel that wheel flex is affecting the cornering at all.
Of course my frames of reference are on the one hand riding low spoke count wheels on single bikes, and coming from a less rigid tadem frame on the other. So the increase in frame stiffness (particularly the front end and fork) may be offsetting any loss of wheel stiffness in cornering. And I'm used to riding low spoke count wheels. YMMV.
As for speed, there's no doubt they are faster than the 48 spoke wheels on our old bike. How much faster they'd be than a set of good conventionally built 36 spoke wheels is another question. Rolf claims some pretty impressive aerodynamic numbers for their low spoke count wheels for single bikes. (better than Zipp 404's) The Tandem ROlf's certainly aren't that aero, but I would imagine they have measurably less aerodynamic resistence than conventionally spoked wheels, given the similar design.
mrfish
Re. narrower tyres, swapping from 28mm Bontrager Hard Case with el cheapo thick inner tubes to 23mm Pro Race 2s and Conti Supersonic inner tubes transformed the tandem from being a nasty clunker to ride like a nice road bike. Some may think the inner tubes are extreme, but in my opinion a thin inner tube punctures the same way as a thin one but saves weight and rides better. I also have some latex inner tubes to try, but haven't needed to yet.
On the wheel subject, my T2000 came with Bontragers, which I liked because of the bling. After a couple of years of riding them I like them, although they are probably not significantly better than well-built wheel like TG's. What I like about them is that they have not needed any maintenance so far, remain perfectly true and seem to ride nicely. Other plusses are that the spokes are replaceable with spokes from any bike shops in emergencies and Bontrager rate them for 'large' people to go heavy touring, which others bling wheels don't, so they are probably well overbuilt for our normal use.
I think I will keep these for daily use and then try something like my American Classic CR420 rims built onto tandem hubs to make something extremely light and aero. Yes it may fall apart but is probably fine for time trials. (Just compare with those GEL280s people used to ride in road races - they supposedly would bend if you looked at them but mine worked fine for years)
cornucopia72
"Performance" wheels are going to be more prone to issues and cost a lot more no matter how you slice it. The question is: Are you willing to trade dealing with those issues for a more spirited/fun ride? We definitely are... For us, every Tuesday and Thursday night there are some sprints to contest... no prices, not even bragging rights.
We know a couple of teams that have their Rolfs collecting dust somewhere and ride conventional wheels instead. All because there were issues with the sets...
zonatandem
Lighter/narrower/folding tires can make a difference. Not as pricey as a whole new wheelset.
We are no longer speed demons but do appreciate a good set of wheels.
On our Zona tandem: King hubs, Velocity Aerohead rims, DT Revolution spokes. 32H front, 36H rear. We are a rather light team at just under 250 lbs.
Got 19,000+ miles on those wheels now. One very minor issue, at just under 18,000 miles broke a nipple *(not a spoke) on front wheel.
If we needed a new wheelset would seriously consider Topolinos (have them on my single).
Pedal on TWOgether!
Rudy and Kay/zonatandem
mikeybikey101
We are starting our third season on Rolf wheels which came stock on our Burley Rivazzi. We are a 300lb team in season. After 3200 miles two spokes pulled through the rear rim. To Rolf's credit they warrantied the wheel even though it was out of warranty, but we were with out wheels for three weeks. This spring I picked up a spare set of used wheels just-in-case. The spares are Chris King 36 hubs laced to Velocity Aerohead wheels which have been a great wheels after a 1000 miles so far. Back to Rolf--this spring after 3400 miles since rebuild the rear hub broke at a spoke hole. Rolf again to there credit fixed it at no cost. This time because of back order on hubs, the turn around was five weeks. I must say Rolf is really great at customer service, but you better have a backup. I thought of selling the Rolf"s because of the hassles, but I think of the times we are hanging on by our fingernails on fast group rides, and decided to hang on to them. Rolf's are no longer our daily wheels. Since getting them back, we use them for fast club rides where we might need that edge. And I do think there is an edge. When things are ramped up to 30mph, and at our age, we need all the help we can get. Anyway, this has been our experience. Is it worth it? You tell me. Our first tandem was a Cannodale with 48 spoke wheels. So I know there is a difference!
R900
On the wheel subject, my T2000 came with Bontragers, which I liked because of the bling. After a couple of years of riding them I like them, although they are probably not significantly better than well-built wheel like TG's. What I like about them is that they have not needed any maintenance so far, remain perfectly true and seem to ride nicely. Other plusses are that the spokes are replaceable with spokes from any bike shops in emergencies and Bontrager rate them for 'large' people to go heavy touring, which others bling wheels don't, so they are probably well overbuilt for our normal use.
We run the stock Bontrager tandem wheels and have also been very pleased. We hit some very hard holes, without notice to the wheels. We did switch to a 25mm tire, but otherwise, the stock wheel, has been great.
TandemGeek
Any suggestions for an improved daily wheel set or would you all vote for keeping the Sun/Shimano set-up that came with the bike?
I'd recommend sticking with what you have. As for any tire recommendations, I'd have to know what you were presently using but, in general, would suggest staying with at least a 28mm.
As already noted, shaving grams off of wheelsets does not come without compromise and the performance gains are marginal for all but very competitive events. Moreover, I still maintain that tandem teams need to be careful when trading off overall wheel stability, reliability and affordability for what may really be a fashion statement or performance placebo. We're still fiddling around with our various wheelsets and can find things we like about all of them. However, at the end of the day, the 'best wheels' continue to be the conventional wheelset: it's a no-brainer. Therefore, even if you did decide to move to a performance wheel I'd keep those stockers close at hand. Now, if someone held a gun to my head and forced me to suggest a set of go-fast wheels, the Bontrager Race Lites would probably the the ones I'd recommend. They are by-far the most robust of the bunch -- nearly a full pound heavier than the Rolfs -- which is what you really need, moreso than uber-light.
TandemGeek
So far so good. I have not found them to be overly flexible at all.
Just for kicks, you might want to beg, borrow, or steal a nice set of 36h conventional wheels and slap them on your Robusta on a Sunday after riding on the Rolf's the day before. You may or may not notice any difference... but either way it could prove to be interesting.
merlinextraligh
I'm planning on getting a little bit more "robust" set of wheels as a backup. We'll use the bike occassionally with a Bob trailer, or a small set of panniers,and I don't want to push my luck with the extra weight.
joe@vwvortex
We've had the Rolfs on our tandem since we bought it. We're a pretty big team weight wise at about 350+/-. We've had a couple issues with the rear bearings coming out of adjustment and have a bit of "wiggle" in the rear rim. A couple bearings also seized up in the rear hub making some noise. I sent the wheel back to Rolf and they replaced the all bearings and the entire rear axle. Haven't had a problem since with the rear. We also had a couple spoke come loose mysteriously in the front wheel, but I did send the front wheel back for a rim replacement due to an uneven braking surface - and again - since getting it back it's been fine. Overall i've not been that impressed with the quality - but the ride is great and so is the customer service.