Singlespeed & Fixed Gear - Japanese Frame Builders Vs US

I live in Tokyo so I`m well into all the Japanese framebuilders. There`s a broad range to choose from in Japan but prices for a standard geometry single coloured track frame seem to start at 80,000YEN (panasonic) and end at 160,000YEN for frames from the older builders who work alone; Nagasawa, Samson. Waiting lists hover round 6-8 months. Rarely much higher. Lately I started looking at the US builders and couldnt beleive the waiting times and prices. 5 Years for Vanilla is the longest I saw but others come close. Prices above $2000.
What Im getting at is whats the diference? Why pay so much more for a custom US made frame? Not getting into custom paintwork or lugs, just talking about the quality of the frames for whatever purpose your build is for...

I'd say that the only reason for buying a frame from Jonny Cycles or Vanilla or any of those builders, besides the obvious hype/hipster/trend-factor, is that you want to support your local framebuilder, which to me makes sense. But the prices these people put on their work DO NOT make any sense me.

They also seem to give a good guarantee their work. When buying a frameset from abroad dealing with those issues will be much more difficult even if they would give you same guarantee on their work.

But ok, I guess many non-locals seem to buy those expensive US made frames as well.

Keep the money in your own country.

I live in Tokyo so I`m well into all the Japanese framebuilders. There`s a broad range to choose from in Japan but prices for a standard geometry single coloured track frame seem to start at 80,000YEN (panasonic) and end at 160,000YEN for frames from the older builders who work alone; Nagasawa, Samson. Waiting lists hover round 6-8 months. Rarely much higher. Lately I started looking at the US builders and couldnt beleive the waiting times and prices. 5 Years for Vanilla is the longest I saw but others come close. Prices above $2000.
What Im getting at is whats the diference? Why pay so much more for a custom US made frame? Not getting into custom paintwork or lugs, just talking about the quality of the frames for whatever purpose your build is for...

What are you getting for waiting 5 years with a vanilla? Knowledge that you waited like a ****** for 5 years.

That doesn't really represent all US framebuilders... some have pretty short waiting lists and comparatively reasonable prices. Forum user tehz's Hufnagel frame will not take that long or cost that much...

Vanilla does do some extensive custom lugs and stuff on some of their frames though but I would never wait 5 years for anything haha. HYPE.

But the prices these people put on their work DO NOT make any sense me.
If you've got a wait-list that is several years long, and people are still putting down deposits, why NOT raise your prices? The builders who are charging $2000/frame have done what it takes to build demand for their frames.

Better to have a queue that is a couple years long full of people who are paying $2,000 than a queue that is a couple decades long full of $1000 paying people; odds are you are going to piss off a lot more people by charging less.

high fixed cost+high variable cost=high prices.

in 5 years you many not be riding bikes....more so, hover boards !

Keep the money in your own country.

I guess you have an all Canadian bike? No import parts on it?

I guess you have an all Canadian bike? No import parts on it?

I guess ryansexton's answer was to the question of "why would one buy US built frames". And the answer tried to be "so people can (think they can) keep their money in their country".

I might be wrong with my interpretation, though.

I guess ryansexton's answer was to the question of "why would one buy US built frames". And the answer tried to be "so people can (think they can) keep their money in their country".

I might be wrong with my interpretation, though.

Ah yes. I think youre correct. Sorry ryansexton.
That makes sense too. A lot of Americans have that mentality. Thinking theyre keeping America alive by buying ****ty American parts. Not that custom American frames are ****ty...probably not. But ie: Ford or GM cars. **** like that.

64 miles to Don Walker vs "We could not calculate driving directions between West Lafayette, IN and Tokyo, Japan." miles to Japan.

But the prices these people put on their work DO NOT make any sense me.


Your time is worth whatever you want it to be worth in that arena. Vanilla bikes are serious bling factor, you pay for the time it takes to make it. I can't hate on his prices at all...if people are willing to pay him that, that's their loss. Man, if I had to wait that long on a bike, by the time I got it I have a feeling I wouldn't be nearly as stoked on it anymore.

Ford or GM cars. **** like that.

****tiest cars:
http://www.betterworldshopper.org/r-cars.html

(OT but awesome)

Wowee, the "ignorance" abounds in this thread.

I have covered this about 20 different times on bike forums. Guess I need to do it yet again.

Materials;
Tubing is anywhere from 100-300 for a quality set
Lugs run anywhere from 30-100 for the main 3, plus 15-75 for a good BB shell,
dropouts, add another 15-45 bucks.
Fork crown...20 bucks minimum.

So, adding up conservatively, thats 350 before adding on braze ons such as bridges and hey, dont forget
filler rod...56% silver is running about 25 bucks an ounce...takes about an ounce or two per frame/fork.

Now were up to 400+

Hmmmm, a good painter is going to charge me about 350 minimum for a 1 color job.

$750

Thats before we have even begun the labor.

Lets say it is a "true" 40 hour frame and the builder works on it for the entire week.
a standard "shop rate" should be around $45 an hour. That rate covers salary, electricity, insurance,
and wear/tear on hand tools and if you are lucky, maybe 20% profit margin. Thats 1800 alone in a "fair market" labor value.

1800+
750=
2550
and you are complaining about 2k?

Now, since many of the younger builders dont associate these costs with the "price of doing business", i suspect there will be a fire sale of sorts when alot of them figured out they didnt make any money. Surviving on a net profit of $300 a week is, well, weak.

The fact that so many framebuilders are based in their garage accounts for at least a savings of a bit of overhead. But its still not enough. Any other business not using the model above is destined to fail, even if they have a decent backlog.

Now, how does this compare to the Japanese model? They are not on the same playing field. They are able to make a bike or more a day with a streamlined operation. If it took them 40 hours to make a bike, you surely would be paying much, much more for it.
The bigger companies there are able to turn them out in 3-4 hours, including paint...

So, what is a better deal for you? The idea of having a faceless person that you dont know build your bike, or the guy that answers the phone build your bike? Thats kind of the spirit of NAHBS, you get to talk to the guy that makes your bike, not some guy that punches a clock and does a job.

DW

Thanks for the insight Noestaencasa......the Japanese framebuilders are pretty much the same, in most cases (the guy that answers the phone .... ) . The only 2 big companies are Bridgestone/Anchor and Panasonic. Nagasawa, for example builds every frame himself.
Ideally, a Japanese builder will have in-house painting, which saves a lot of dough, but most do not. I can imagine a $350 USD paintjob might be of higher quality than most Keirin frames.
Most of them, from what I have heard, make a pretty modest living.
I am guessing Japanese steel is cheaper in Japan too....lugs/tubes.
Keirin frames are all fitted with pretty low-tech NJS headsets, and BBs, which the builders all get direct for very cheap prices....

Now, how does this compare to the Japanese model? They are not on the same playing field. They are able to make a bike or more a day with a streamlined operation.
The bigger companies there are able to turn them out in 3-4 hours, including paint...


How is it possible to make a handmade, lugged frame in that short amount of time? What are they doing different from the 40 hour people?
Also, how do companies like Marinoni, Brew, etc manage to sell their frames for much closer to the Japanese price? Just standardization, or what? Conversely, how is it that Waterford bikes are generally way close to the cost of a US handmade one than a Japanese one, despite having a really automated manufacturing process?
Not challenging, just interested in how this works.

Thanks for the insight Noestaencasa......the Japanese framebuilders are pretty much the same, in most cases (the guy that answers the phone .... ) . The only 2 big companies are Bridgestone/Anchor and Panasonic. Nagasawa, for example builds every frame himself.
Ideally, a Japanese builder will have in-house painting, which saves a lot of dough, but most do not. I can imagine a $350 USD paintjob might be of higher quality than most Keirin frames.
Most of them, from what I have heard, make a pretty modest living.
I am guessing Japanese steel is cheaper in Japan too....lugs/tubes.
Keirin frames are all fitted with pretty low-tech NJS headsets, and BBs, which the builders all get direct for very cheap prices....

Ideally, the builder knows to keep his overhead low, he has to "batch".
Since most Keirin bikes have the same BB drop, they will put dropouts in the blades and stays in bunches.
maybe 20-40 bikes worth at a time. Same thing with stays being slotted and caps put on.
The lugs they use require minimal prep, so they can do it fast.
I know for a fact that Aki Nagasawa has 2-3 guys helping him and they build 2-4 frames per day.
When you dont have to carve lugs or modify shorelines, this stuff goes by much faster.

DW

How is it possible to make a handmade, lugged frame in that short amount of time? What are they doing different from the 40 hour people?
Also, how do companies like Marinoni, Brew, etc manage to sell their frames for much closer to the Japanese price? Just standardization, or what? Conversely, how is it that Waterford bikes are generally way close to the cost of a US handmade one than a Japanese one, despite having a really automated manufacturing process?
Not challenging, just interested in how this works.

See above post for answer to first question.

Marinoni and Brew have extensive, time saving machinery. I believe BREW tig welds everything, which means he goes from mitered tube to welding in a couple of minutes. Once done, your done. With lugs, there is flux that needs to be removed, maybe a bit of shoreline needs to be cleaned up and made presentable, etc.
Waterfords are a bit more custom in their lugs and options. And with the high cost of doing biz, you can expect to pay more for the truly handmade stuff.
Waterford also offers production units, such as Gunnar and they also do subcontract work like the Milwaukee and rivendel brands.

DW

Well I think using Vanilla is a rather bad example for comparing custom frames. His bikes are more like practical art than a typical bicycle. And people love his work which is why he has a 5 year waiting list and high prices.

You can find good US builders that start around same price as higher end ones in Japan (based on the OPs figures of around 1100-1200 USD). I imagine our working wages and importing more materials makes our base cost a bit higher. Land Shark, Hufnagel and Pierre are all bike builders out of the same general region as Vanilla but without such the exorbitant prices.

Maybe its because i realized how big he is in real life, maybe its because he's right, but I agree with Don Walker.

I'm getting a frame built locally by Jordan Hufnagel. I could get one done in Japan for around the same price, maybe even a little cheaper, but I'd prefer to get a solid frame from a solid dude who I can talk to face to face. Kalavinka is not going to fly me out to nippon to look at, test out, or pick up my frame, but I can ride 10 minutes to jordan's shop at any time. I mean that's basically it. I know Jordan's going to do a good job and I know if there are any problems he's going to be right down the street to work with me.

His prices prices haven't raised much, but from what I hear his waiting list is building quickly after NAHBS.

take labor, parts, design, name, and then add collector and/or pro athlete demand.
in a lot of cases the purchasing power and emotional desire of The Collector is what sets these prices apart.

Wowee, the "ignorance" abounds in this thread.

I have covered this about 20 different times on bike forums. Guess I need to do it yet again.

Materials;
Tubing is anywhere from 100-300 for a quality set
Lugs run anywhere from 30-100 for the main 3, plus 15-75 for a good BB shell,
dropouts, add another 15-45 bucks.
Fork crown...20 bucks minimum.

So, adding up conservatively, thats 350 before adding on braze ons such as bridges and hey, dont forget
filler rod...56% silver is running about 25 bucks an ounce...takes about an ounce or two per frame/fork.

Now were up to 400+

Hmmmm, a good painter is going to charge me about 350 minimum for a 1 color job.

$750

Thats before we have even begun the labor.

Lets say it is a "true" 40 hour frame and the builder works on it for the entire week.
a standard "shop rate" should be around $45 an hour. That rate covers salary, electricity, insurance,
and wear/tear on hand tools and if you are lucky, maybe 20% profit margin. Thats 1800 alone in a "fair market" labor value.

1800+
750=
2550
and you are complaining about 2k?

Now, since many of the younger builders dont associate these costs with the "price of doing business", i suspect there will be a fire sale of sorts when alot of them figured out they didnt make any money. Surviving on a net profit of $300 a week is, well, weak.

The fact that so many framebuilders are based in their garage accounts for at least a savings of a bit of overhead. But its still not enough. Any other business not using the model above is destined to fail, even if they have a decent backlog.

Now, how does this compare to the Japanese model? They are not on the same playing field. They are able to make a bike or more a day with a streamlined operation. If it took them 40 hours to make a bike, you surely would be paying much, much more for it.
The bigger companies there are able to turn them out in 3-4 hours, including paint...

So, what is a better deal for you? The idea of having a faceless person that you dont know build your bike, or the guy that answers the phone build your bike? Thats kind of the spirit of NAHBS, you get to talk to the guy that makes your bike, not some guy that punches a clock and does a job.

DW

This was probably the best thing I've read on this forum in a long time. Thanks DW.

This was probably the best thing I've read on this forum in a long time. Thanks DW.

Yeah, DW does know his sh*t.

Still, it doesn't make me feel like a US-made frame is any more desirable than a Japanese one ('cause both countries are far from me :D )

Now, how does this compare to the Japanese model? They are not on the same playing field. They are able to make a bike or more a day with a streamlined operation. If it took them 40 hours to make a bike, you surely would be paying much, much more for it.

What point did Noestaencasa mean to make?

Did he mean to explain how Japanese framebuilders can make the same quality frame for less money?
Or, perhaps that they make a lower quality frame?
Shortcuts, and all that?

And, if American builders have such long waiting lists, why can't they streamline their operations?

I imagine the Japanese framebuilders make as many custom accommodations to professional racers as do the American builders, except the named Japanese builders make only fixed gear or track bikes.
I like track geometry, so I can live with that.

And, I'd like to know whether Nagasawa has aprentices or assistants, and what role they play: because I have heard time after time that he has a one man shop.

And, how many frames has Nagasawa made?
Maybe the guy just knows how to do it by now.

And, Noestaencasa = DW?

Not Don Walker?

I have long considered having a custom frame made, because I would like to have a lighter version of my beloved Bianchi Pista frameset.
However, I come away from most custom framebuiler's sites impressed more with the hype than the value or quality of their frames.

Some of the frame builders post closeups of their framesets to show the alleged quality, and I wonder if they really looked at the picture before they posted it.

Hype, hype and more hype.

Now, some builders, such as Co-Motion Cycles, make a custom-proportioned frameset in a production environment, and I appreciate the development of the system that allows them to do this.

Still, they want a lot of money for a TIG-welded frame.

At my age and station in life, I can afford any bike I might want.

However, everytime I think of writing a check for the custom frames out there I have seen, I just can't do it.
It seems like a rip-off.

Of all the frame-builders, Mercian seems like the best value for the money.

They may not make the "best" frame (whatever that means), but they make a good frame and they make a lot of them, and they'll make them to the customer's specifications for no extra money.

I can get a full custom Mercian frameset, say a Super Vigorelli made of 631, FedExed to my door in less than two weeks, for $1088.
If I get crazy and insist on Reynolds 853, all custom proportions, FedExed to my door in less than two weeks, I will spend the grand total of $1470.
Two weeks.
Mercian has made a lot of frames, and I suspect they know how to do it by now.

From the time I send the e-mail to Mercian until my new, custom-proportioned bike shows up at my door...ding dong....two weeks.

I talked to Mercian awhile back, and you couldn't ask for more helpful people.

They wanted me to use their fit kit to measure myself; send a picture of myself riding a bike I presently like; send me the geometry of the bike I like; and, write a description of what kind of riding I like to do.
When I said I wanted 853, they asked why.
Lightness, I said.
They told me to not try to save weight in the frame, but to trust them to put together a tubing mix that would best serve my riding style; and, in the end, it would still weigh less than my present frameset, and it would cost less than an all-853 frameset.

In talking to people in the bike business, I have heard only one slight negative from a former Mercian dealer regarding Mercian framesets.
He described them as well-made, best paint job in the business, but a little sloppy on the inside where the customer usually doesn't look.
Of course, he said, he saw this in the days when Mercian made huge numbers of non-custom framesets for bike shops, and he didn't know if this would apply to their present day custom framesets.

Also of note, of all the custom builders, only Mercian charges more for their fillet-brazed framesets than they do for their lugged framesets.
I find that interesting.
Actually, it makes sense to me.
Because of my fitting issues and preferences, I might go with a fillet-brazed Mercian frame (I don't know if lugs will allow the proportions I want).

Quick review of the numbers: $1088 - $1470; two weeks to your front door; Mercian.

http://www.merciancycles.com/frame_vigorelli.asp

My Mikkelsen road bike feels every bit as awesome as my 3Rensho. He can make you one for $1200.

I don't know why people aren't beating his door down.

My Mikkelsen road bike feels every bit as awesome as my 3Rensho. He can make you one for $1200.

I don't know why people aren't beating his door down.

Is he building again? Didn't he have a stroke about a year and a half ago?

He is, and he did.

He's still not so good at the talking, which must be extra-hard for him, but he's torching again.

What point did Noestaencasa mean to make?

Did he mean to explain how Japanese framebuilders can make the same quality frame for less money?
Or, perhaps that they make a lower quality frame?
Shortcuts, and all that?

And, if American builders have such long waiting lists, why can't they streamline their operations?

Ken,

No, I never said they make the same quality. Not better or worse, either. Imagine, if you will, the "cookie cutter" aluminum bikes of 3-7 years ago, the keirin bikes are almost along the same lines. Same lugs, or some variation close. I dont want to say they are all the same thing, but they are close enough. Now, if you wanted a truly custom frame from Japan, I would suggest Toei. That guy does the same sort of thing as we (US builders) do. He modifies lugs, he makes stems and other items to accentuate the bike. Keirin builders make what? Race Bikes. There's no bones about it. Its a race bike, why should it have carved lugs or ultra clean shorelines?

American builders like placing quality over quantity, thats why. Some of them are able to make 6 bikes a week, others 1. The guy that builds 6 a week makes a mighty fine bicycle that anyone would be proud to own, but its not an heirloom quality peice like a Sachs or Weigle or Gordon or Baylis. Its a race bike. go beat it up, thats what it is there for.



I imagine the Japanese framebuilders make as many custom accommodations to professional racers as do the American builders, except the named Japanese builders make only fixed gear or track bikes.
I like track geometry, so I can live with that.

And, I'd like to know whether Nagasawa has aprentices or assistants, and what role they play: because I have heard time after time that he has a one man shop.

And, how many frames has Nagasawa made?
Maybe the guy just knows how to do it by now.

And, Noestaencasa = DW?

Not Don Walker?


Aki Nagasawa has at least 2 assistants, despite what it says on the yellowjersey website. I know because I know someone who worked with him. (lucky me, I "know people") the assistants miter tubes and do menial labor such as file and prep. Maybe he lets them braze now, not sure.
Not a clue on how many frames he has made.

DW = Don Walker = Noestaencasa.



I have long considered having a custom frame made, because I would like to have a lighter version of my beloved Bianchi Pista frameset.
However, I come away from most custom framebuiler's sites impressed more with the hype than the value or quality of their frames.

Some of the frame builders post closeups of their framesets to show the alleged quality, and I wonder if they really looked at the picture before they posted it.

Hype, hype and more hype.

I think its funny you should mention that about the pics. I like the fact some like to blog their bikes, but I have seen stuff out there I wouldnt want on my site. I have recently developed a friendship with a well respected pro photographer and he will be doing all my shots. If the bike isnt perfect, it doesnt get shot.

Hype....lovin it! A bike should have all the aesthetics the customer paid for and fit perfectly and also ride like it was meant to. It should track properly and not have any handling issues.



Now, some builders, such as Co-Motion Cycles, make a custom-proportioned frameset in a production environment, and I appreciate the development of the system that allows them to do this.

Still, they want a lot of money for a TIG-welded frame.

At my age and station in life, I can afford any bike I might want.

However, everytime I think of writing a check for the custom frames out there I have seen, I just can't do it.
It seems like a rip-off.

It shouldnt seem like a ripoff. You are getting something thats made to your specifications. As far as cost, again, thats the price of doing business in the good ol US of A.



Of all the frame-builders, Mercian seems like the best value for the money.

They may not make the "best" frame (whatever that means), but they make a good frame and they make a lot of them, and they'll make them to the customer's specifications for no extra money.

I can get a full custom Mercian frameset, say a Super Vigorelli made of 631, FedExed to my door in less than two weeks, for $1088.
If I get crazy and insist on Reynolds 853, all custom proportions, FedExed to my door in less than two weeks, I will spend the grand total of $1470.
Two weeks.
Mercian has made a lot of frames, and I suspect they know how to do it by now.

From the time I send the e-mail to Mercian until my new, custom-proportioned bike shows up at my door...ding dong....two weeks.

I talked to Mercian awhile back, and you couldn't ask for more helpful people.

They wanted me to use their fit kit to measure myself; send a picture of myself riding a bike I presently like; send me the geometry of the bike I like; and, write a description of what kind of riding I like to do.
When I said I wanted 853, they asked why.
Lightness, I said.
They told me to not try to save weight in the frame, but to trust them to put together a tubing mix that would best serve my riding style; and, in the end, it would still weigh less than my present frameset, and it would cost less than an all-853 frameset.

In talking to people in the bike business, I have heard only one slight negative from a former Mercian dealer regarding Mercian framesets.
He described them as well-made, best paint job in the business, but a little sloppy on the inside where the customer usually doesn't look.
Of course, he said, he saw this in the days when Mercian made huge numbers of non-custom framesets for bike shops, and he didn't know if this would apply to their present day custom framesets.

Also of note, of all the custom builders, only Mercian charges more for their fillet-brazed framesets than they do for their lugged framesets.
I find that interesting.
Actually, it makes sense to me.
Because of my fitting issues and preferences, I might go with a fillet-brazed Mercian frame (I don't know if lugs will allow the proportions I want).

Quick review of the numbers: $1088 - $1470; two weeks to your front door; Mercian.

http://www.merciancycles.com/frame_vigorelli.asp

Mercian is a good, reputable company. I might add that they are also one of those companies that have a stockpile of machinery that makes the whole process much quicker and their own paint shop. While it is a great deal for a handmade frame, its not on par with someone who creates one a week. And yes, I am planning on ordering one myself for my collection.

DW

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2107/2266758154_3f6c1d9f62_o.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2037/2217185292_4ca4d8106a_o.jpg

im keeping my cross frame so local, im having beer with my frame builder tonight while we plot world domination!

Stunning.

Of all the Japanese builders I`v met not one wouldnt rather be given the oppertunity to spend time on a beautiful expensive road set , an option which I`v never seen not offered. Also back when steel carried champions they all got enough practice building non NJS track frames.
Signing up for the NJS gig gives them work but I guess reading Noestaencasa not the respect they deserve. Yes many NJS frames are very similar but theres competition between builders to create perfection within Keirins limitations, this is what seperates the frame ridden by champions and the frames ridden by all the riders in the A class circuit. Builders also work with riders and vice versa, so if you live in Japan the builds are still personal. Iv seen one builder with a scrap book full of photo`s of champions crossing the line, he had scribbled and circled all opver them like a madman trying to work out how each frame optimised the performance of each winner.
There`s a reason for the large number of frame builders in Japan, but no doubt they get anough practice and Im sure can match anything made in the USA given the oppertunity.

http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd26/tokyofixedgear/P1000937.jpg?t=1203132652

This would resolve alot of queries on this forum.

I think most have seen that. I know i have one but someone had scanned a lot of it and posted it when it was new i think.
There's not much relevant info in it.

Lyonsport and Curtlo do VERY reasonably priced fillet brazed frames, and not everyone has crazy wait times.

Hype is necessary to make it in the marketplace, and startup costs are high. The Mercians and Nagasawas of the world bought their **** a long time ago.

IMO cost shouldn't be the #1 consideration if you're seriously looking at going custom.

how you guys gonna get njs **** if you dont buy from the japanese
?



p.s.
america sucks

DW: assuming you have the necessary know how and all you need to do to start building is write a check, what would start up costs be? if
a: you are planning on doing everything by hand
b: if you want machines to do the menial work

how you guys gonna get njs **** if you dont buy from the japanese
?



p.s.
america sucks

Haha! :D
lmao

how you guys gonna get njs **** if you dont buy from the japanese
?



p.s.
america sucks

Thats what im talkin' about!
DW aint NJS :p

Of all the Japanese builders I`v met not one wouldnt rather be given the oppertunity to spend time on a beautiful expensive road set , an option which I`v never seen not offered. Also back when steel carried champions they all got enough practice building non NJS track frames.
Signing up for the NJS gig gives them work but I guess reading Noestaencasa not the respect they deserve. Yes many NJS frames are very similar but theres competition between builders to create perfection within Keirins limitations, this is what seperates the frame ridden by champions and the frames ridden by all the riders in the A class circuit. Builders also work with riders and vice versa, so if you live in Japan the builds are still personal. Iv seen one builder with a scrap book full of photo`s of champions crossing the line, he had scribbled and circled all opver them like a madman trying to work out how each frame optimised the performance of each winner.
There`s a reason for the large number of frame builders in Japan, but no doubt they get anough practice and Im sure can match anything made in the USA given the oppertunity.

The answer to the riddle can be found in your post. Many of the Japanese builders are striving for perfection but under Keirin limitations. The American builders are also striving for perfection but there are no limitations placed on them. The sky is the limit. It is easier to acheive your goal when your hands are free. As Don told you there are some excellent Japanese builders, but it seems most prefer to work for Keirin and imposed limits.

and to think that we have threads wondering why "the old school" guys left :rolleyes:

this argument was held before in this thread (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=175439&page=1), except it was us builders like johnny coast, indy fab, vanilla

ken cox posted the same comments about the mercian. claimed to not own stock in the british company. buy one already, then your praises would be well sounded!:D
don walker broke down the pricing/overhead comments.

thanks dw for hashing it out for the new crop of kids who missed out on the breakdown in the other go-rounds. the nahbs shots from this year look amazing, cant wait for the pdh/east coast one to take place.

The old school guys were real, no fakengers.

A fair and reasoned response from Noestaencasa.

Thanks.

=====


ken cox posted the same comments about the mercian. claimed to not own stock in the british company. buy one already, then your praises would be well sounded!

Well, I don't mean to praise Mercian as much as to use them as a point of reference.

I've never even seen a Mercian frame in real life.

But when I go riding my bike with its crappy Pista frame, I try to think what about it I would change.

It feels awfully good, how could I make it any better?

Oh, I could make it lighter by entirely replacing it for somewhere between $1100 and $1500.

Or, for about $600 I can take a pound and a half off of it with a judicious choice of parts, and, in the end, I will still have the parts to put on the custom frame I might get someday.

My lbs pointed out to me the other day that, since buying this Pista, and including the original purchase price, I have spent $3400 on this one bike and I still have a Bianchi Pista. :)

Well, I don't have all the money on the bike right now.
But I do have enough parts out in my garage to make another nice bike or two.

It costs money to learn.

I would never have guessed how much I would like my Stronglight crank, nor how much it would contribute to the lightness of my bike, if I had not purchased it as an experiment.

I would not have known what a difference wheels could make had I not purchased my Cane Creek Volos Track wheels.

I've spent a fortune on pedals, seeking the perfect set of pedals.
I may have already found the perfect pedals, but, this spring, I bought a new set of ultra-light pedals as an experiment in maintenance (how to keep light pedals in a good state of function).

So, I may never get a custom frame.

I take some satisfaction and peace of mind, when I lock up my bike on the street for an appointment, that as a beat-up looking Bianchi Pista it will not attract a second look.

I don't know what I'd do if I lived in a big city where some people have discerning eyes.

Neither of my two favorite saddles would last a second (or so I assume) in some cities.

And my most recent stem and handlebar configuration?

I think if I lived in the Big City, I'd have to have a second bike for locking up outside.

I talked to the Waterford folks a few years ago and asked if they would make a sterile no-decal bike for me.

I asked them this because a local frame builder would not make a bike without his decals on it.

Anyway, the Waterford folks wouldn't give me a straight answer.

But if you had a Waterford with big Waterford decals, how would you go visit a friend and have a good, relaxed time with your Waterford locked up out on the street?

How about going to a movie?

I won't ride my Pista to the movies, because people will know they have at least an hour and a half to harvest my bike.

I have never seen a nice bike locked up outside the movies.

I don't know.

You guys who live in the Inner Cities deal with this stuff all the time, and maybe you have tricks for protecting an obviously expensive bike.

Myself, I deal with it, with my limited understanding, by hiding it in plain view as a Bianchi Pista.

How nice that I found a notoriously cheap frame that works so nice for me.

When friends ride it, though, something funny happens to their face.

My physical therapist asked if he could ride it, and he rode it right into his office and into his treatment room without getting off, and then did a track stand in the middle of his treatment room.

Yes, I have narrow 39cm bars, and one can ride my bike around in the house.

My middle son talked me into buying this Pista and throwing away all the parts, and I will forever remain grateful to him for his shared insight.

Get a Pista; start upgrading parts as you can afford them; and store the parts on your Pista.

Eventually, you will have the perfect bike for you, all held together by a cheap frame that does a good job at what frames do.

Maybe for my 63rd birthday I could go to Ashland, Oregon for two weeks, attend the live-in Bicycle Mechanic school there, and make my own no-decal frame.

One of the instructors at UBI in Ashland made a nice, simple lugged fixed gear bike and had it nickel plated.

Gosh.

When you think nickel plated, think soft and lustrous, and not bright and shiny.

I think the frame school would cost $1700-$1800, but in two weeks I'd have a frameset made by myself.

And, I'd know how to make another one, if I wanted to make another one, or two or three.

The local frame builder I mentioned earlier, who wouldn't make a no-decal frameset for me, recently went out of business.

Maybe I should go see what he wants for one of his jigs.

^ - Wow

Ken, you're probably a very cool guy, and I agree with everything you say - when I get the strength to read your extremely annoying posts.

crazy beautiful Japanese non-NJS super custom = Zephyr and Pegasus, to name a couple. and their frames are $2,000 and a lot higher depending on options (a complete Pegasus is something like 8 or 9k).

Ah yes. I think youre correct. Sorry ryansexton.
That makes sense too. A lot of Americans have that mentality. Thinking theyre keeping America alive by buying ****ty American parts. Not that custom American frames are ****ty...probably not. But ie: Ford or GM cars. **** like that.

No. I was serious. My bike might not be 100% canadian parts (maybe even 0%), but at least I support a local shop. Why would I ship something in from Japan if I can get a person in my own country to make it? Thats how you keep a country alive, buy things of that country. Obviously you can't avoid buying east asian parts on basically anything, but I still try to make an effort to choose Canadian made over American, or Japanese, or anything else you shoot at me. Its not so much that I bought my bike as all Canadian, but at least I bought it here.

Come to think about it, I think my frame might be Canadian built, its a shops own custom bike, so I don't know if they just order in the parts and assemble as their own, or actually customized their own frame. Either way, keeps the local stores open.

Also - I know my country's standards on labour. I think minimum wage is getting bumped to 10.00, and a frame builder probably made like 20-25 dollars an hour to the bike. I don't know anything about Japan labour laws, good or bad, I just don't know what they get paid, and if its not an adequate amount, then I know why I got my frame so cheap.

No. I was serious. My bike might not be 100% canadian parts (maybe even 0%), but at least I support a local shop. Why would I ship something in from Japan if I can get a person in my own country to make it? Thats how you keep a country alive, buy things of that country. Obviously you can't avoid buying east asian parts on basically anything, but I still try to make an effort to choose Canadian made over American, or Japanese, or anything else you shoot at me. Its not so much that I bought my bike as all Canadian, but at least I bought it here.

Come to think about it, I think my frame might be Canadian built, its a shops own custom bike, so I don't know if they just order in the parts and assemble as their own, or actually customized their own frame. Either way, keeps the local stores open.

I understand your logic and it makes sense. Probably, if were Canadian and lived in Canada id feel the same way and buy domestic made stuff. But to be honest, Im an American and accordingly feel just the opposite.
Im not joking when i say i go out of my way to buy foreign made stuff.

Haha. Fair enough. I guess it makes sense, as well. You're sticking it to the man, and changing the system to provide better stuff. I actually love my country.