We're closer than ever to getting a "stop for pedestrians in crosswalks"
bill passed in Virginia. The bill, SB644, is on the Transportation
Committee docket for tomorrow afternoon. If we can get it through
committee tomorrow it will probably pass the House and finally become
law (it has already passed the Senate).
If you're a constituent of a Transportation Committee member, please
contact your delegate's office before 2pm tomorrow, and urge them to
support the "Stop for Pedestrians in Crosswalks" bill, SB644.
I've posted the info at
http://www.vabike.org/sb644-stop-for-pedestrians, but for quick reference,
here's the list of House Transportation Committee members:
May, Chairman (Loudon)
Ed Scott (Culpeper)
Toscano (Charlottesville)
Fralin (Roanoke)
Nichols (Woodbridge)
Frederick (Woodbridge)
Dwight Jones (Richmond)
Saxman (Staunton)
Loupassi (West end Richmond & Chesterfield)
Ebbin (Arlington)
Carrico (SW Virginia, along the NC line)
Rust (Herndon)
BaCote (Newport News)
Cosgrove (Chesapeake)
Hugo (Centreville)
Gear (Hampton)
Tata (VA Beach)
Marsden (Fairfax)
Oder (Newport News)
Valentine (Lynchburg)
Brink (Arlington)
If one of these is your delegate, please contact their office by 2pm tomorrow.
You can find who your delegate is, and their contact information at:
This is a close one that just needs a little push. With your help we can
finally get this done!
JohnBrooking
02-20-08, 08:41 PM
We have this in Maine, and it's pretty nice. Of course it's still not paid much attention to, unless the crosswalk is brightly painted and has large bright signs reminding drivers of it. But then it works okay.
Two drawbacks: First, as you can imagine, it does sometimes happen that a driver brakes too quickly and get rear-ended, although that's not common.
Secondly, peds still have to be careful, because even if one driver is stopping for them, they need to remember to check the other direction. This is especially a problem with more than one lane in each direction. Not many actual problems, but can make for a confusing situation. As many of us know from riding, a motorist waving you through is often not aware of whether or not the other lanes are also safe.
Good luck!
mattotoole
02-21-08, 01:38 PM
JohnBrooking, there will always be scofflaws, but "stop" legislation can only make the environment safer. Motorists would know they must be on the lookout for crosswalks, let alone pedestrians, to avoid getting tickets. With weak, "yield" legislation, they know they can get by without worrying about it unless they actually see a pedestrian right in front of them.
Anway, the bill has been delayed again. It's back to subcommittee, to be heard by committee again early Monday morning. I've posted the details at http://www.vabike.org/sb644-delayed-again.
But to make it easy, anyone in Roanoke, Richmond/Chesterfield, or Reston should call their delegate (Fralin, Loupassi, or Rust), to urge them to support SB644, Stop for Pedestrians in Crosswalks.
DCCommuter
02-21-08, 09:48 PM
Don't get your hopes up.
DC has an unambiguous law, motorists must stop for pedestrians, no exceptions. The problem is the law doesn't change the culture, and the culture is cars have right of way. As is often noted in this forum, police officers tend to be auto-centric in their thinking, because they tend to do a lot of driving. It was recently revealed that in a 29-month period the DC police wrote only 17 tickets for failure to stop: 1 in all of 2005, 3 all of 2006, and 13 in the first five months of 2007. In the fall of 2007, a pedestrian was killed when he was struck by a police car in a crosswalk. Another car had stopped for the pedestrian, but the officer passed the stopped car and ran right into the pedestrian. The officer was not cited in any way; the police investigators said that since the officer couldn't see the pedestrian he was not at fault.
The city transportation department has been trying to remove all crosswalks that are not at signalized intersections, saying they create a hazard because motorists can't be relied on to stop. Apparently new federal regulations are to blame. Without going into details, there are striking similarities between the crosswalk debate and the bike lane debates here.
JohnBrooking
02-22-08, 11:53 AM
mattotoole, I agree it's better to have it, I'm just saying it will not be a cure-all.
The specific crosswalk I had in mind when I wrote my post is, in fact, at an unsignalized intersection down at the end of my street, with just stop signs on the neighborhood street and nothing on the 4-lane major road. And pedestrians certainly cannot rely on motorists to stop, even when the town paints the crosswalk bright yellow and posts multiple signs, as they have done here. However, a significant minority do, so I think the law does help change the culture a little bit, given the reinforcement with color and signage.
But it's a little bit of a catch-22: The law says motorists have to stop for pedestrians in the intersection, but as a pedestrian you don't want to step into the intersection if you're not sure the traffic in the nearest lane is going to stop. So your best bet is to stand on the sidewalk or just one step into the road and try to make eye contact with the nearest oncoming driver, then advance lane by lane as you confirm it's safe for each. So just as with bike lanes, it doesn't remove the need for vigilance.
BarracksSi
02-22-08, 05:05 PM
Don't get your hopes up.
DC has an unambiguous law, motorists must stop for pedestrians, no exceptions. The problem is the law doesn't change the culture, and the culture is cars have right of way. As is often noted in this forum, police officers tend to be auto-centric in their thinking, because they tend to do a lot of driving. It was recently revealed that in a 29-month period the DC police wrote only 17 tickets for failure to stop: 1 in all of 2005, 3 all of 2006, and 13 in the first five months of 2007. In the fall of 2007, a pedestrian was killed when he was struck by a police car in a crosswalk. Another car had stopped for the pedestrian, but the officer passed the stopped car and ran right into the pedestrian. The officer was not cited in any way; the police investigators said that since the officer couldn't see the pedestrian he was not at fault.
The city transportation department has been trying to remove all crosswalks that are not at signalized intersections, saying they create a hazard because motorists can't be relied on to stop. Apparently new federal regulations are to blame. Without going into details, there are striking similarities between the crosswalk debate and the bike lane debates here.
I think the problem with DC's unambiguous law is that pedestrians behave ambiguously.
As an example, I saw a couple standing on a corner, maybe waiting for a cab or friend to pick them up, or maybe just deciding where to walk next. No big deal. It started becoming a problem when cars approached the intersection and stopped (no stop sign, and I think the stoplights hadn't been installed yet; this was at 8th & E SE, at the Banana Café), expecting them to cross the street. They didn't, and didn't think to wave the cars on -- but car after car stopped for what was actually no good reason.
Sometimes I'll be walking somewhere, come to a corner with loads of traffic, and stop to wait. Traffic control signs are giving the traffic the right of way. Yet, I'll see somebody drive up, stop, and try to wave me across, even though the cars next to them -- or the cars coming from the opposite direction -- are still hustling along.
My personal beef with this law is that pedestrians use it as a defense, but don't realize that it won't help them from a driver who isn't paying attention. It also makes drivers afraid of what pedestrians might do.
The way I see things, cars have the right of way at times, and pedestrians have the right of way at other times.
I also wonder if this law is intended to protect the multitudes of tourists from their own idiocy as they traipse around arterial streets as if they were sidewalks.
BarracksSi
02-22-08, 09:00 PM
I forgot to say --
The general group of "pedestrians" loses its credibility when they know they can sue for damages from, say, the bus company, even if they put themselves in the way and get hurt on purpose.
Now the Metro bus system is trying to defend itself by making its buses more visible with flashing light bars on the front. I mean, really -- who can't see a bus anyway?
DCCommuter
02-22-08, 10:49 PM
Now the Metro bus system is trying to defend itself by making its buses more visible with flashing light bars on the front. I mean, really -- who can't see a bus anyway?
As I recall, the flashing light bars were prompted by the incident where a Metro driver turned left without yielding to oncoming traffic, forcing opposite-direction cars to skid, and then plowed into two pedestrians who were crossing with the walk signal, killing them both. If I remember correctly the driver got two years in prison for that move. Not seeing the bus was the least of the pedestrians' problem that day.
BarracksSi
02-22-08, 11:01 PM
I guess that story got lost in the collection of many other "so-and-so got hit by a bus" stories.
mattotoole
02-25-08, 11:02 PM
It's true that nothing will change without enforcement and education, but a bill like this is a golden opportunity to address both. A change in legislation gets the ear of police depts., makes it easy to get PSAs done, etc. This is all about opportunity and leverage. We could accomplish in a few months what would otherwise take years, or decades.
I sometimes wonder if critics of this legislation have ever been anywhere else (such as Europe/UK or Canada) where pedestrians' rights are respected. They speak so forcefully about why it can't work or won't help, as if the rest of the world didn't exist.
About "pedestrians using it as a defense" -- when they have right of way (which they do, even under the current law), it's your responsibility to look out for them. Yes they appear suddenly sometimes. That's why it's your job to be extra careful. Until you accept this, you're part of the problem.
Anyway, the bill (SB644) was defeated in subcommittee yesterday (http://www.vabike.org/sb644-stop-for-pedestrians-fails-subcommittee). Once again, Bud gives us the lowdown:
Sadly, we had another pedestrian death at VA Tech (http://www.wdbj7.com/global/story.asp?s=7917666) Saturday evening, with one more seriously injured as a car plowed through a group in a crosswalk:
http://www.wdbj7.com/global/story.asp?s=7917666
BarracksSi
02-25-08, 11:09 PM
I had an argument with a friend of mine regarding pedestrian rights and a particular unsignaled crosswalk near her house.
She'd cross it at almost any time, even if the big intersection fifty yards away had just turned green with a couple dozen cars accelerating her way.
She said, "They're supposed to stop, I have the right of way."
I always said, "Yeah, but what if they don't? What if one of them happens to be dialing a phone, doing their makeup, or just isn't paying attention?"
"Well, that's their problem," she'd reply.
I'm just glad that she was lucky enough to not get maimed or killed. I'm not going to gamble my life by betting on the attentiveness of the drivers here.
BarracksSi
02-25-08, 11:13 PM
About "pedestrians using it as a defense" -- when they have right of way (which they do, even under the current law), it's your responsibility to look out for them. Yes they appear suddenly sometimes. That's why it's your job to be extra careful. Until you accept this, you're part of the problem.
I DO pay attention. I spot more hazards than people would guess.
It's also their responsibility (as it is my responsibility when I'm walking myself) to look both ways before crossing the street. I don't know if parents teach it any more (actually, I don't think they do), but I've known that rule ever since I could walk.
bizzz111
02-26-08, 07:41 AM
Heck even with marked crosswalks with big flashing yellow lights I get a bit skittish.
Just about every time I have to wait a long time for any car to stop. Usually 15-20 will just fly through the crosswalk like I'm not standing there waiting for them to stop. Then, when one finally does stop (always in the lane closest to me on a four lane road) I have to wait because the inevitable 2-3 cars in the inside lane go flying through. Then when that lane finally stops, I wait again to get the traffic in the other direction to wake the hell up and notice me. Then I can finally cross.
Drivers just have tunnel vision. A cop staking out that one crosswalk I occasionally use could probably write 50 tickets a day. It's gotten so bad along the trail that the city has started putting in red lights to stop the traffic instead of just relying on the flashing yellow. Of course that does nothing to solve the real problem. You can't stick a red light up at every singe crosswalk in town. The police need to start enforcing these laws to change behavior.
BarracksSi
02-26-08, 07:53 AM
Drivers just have tunnel vision. A cop staking out that one crosswalk I occasionally use could probably write 50 tickets a day. It's gotten so bad along the trail that the city has started putting in red lights to stop the traffic instead of just relying on the flashing yellow.
Drivers are only paying attention to the cars immediately surrounding them (immediate dangers) and as far as they can see down the road (big picture).
Flashing yellow lights don't mean, and never have meant, "Stop"; they're treated more as a notification than anything (in this case, it's more like, "Be careful, there might be someone in the middle of the street already."). The only signals that means "Stop" are colored red, whether they're a red stoplight or a stop sign.
dynodonn
02-26-08, 09:32 AM
She said, "They're supposed to stop, I have the right of way."
I always said, "Yeah, but what if they don't? What if one of them happens to be dialing a phone, doing their makeup, or just isn't paying attention?"
"Well, that's their problem," she'd reply.
I've encountered that type of attitude from my many local ped encounters over the years, the most memorable one was a few blocks from a local high school, a young female student walked into an non signal intersection without breaking stride, just several car lengths before I reached the intersection, she also gave me a stern look (still walking) even after I put the vehicle I was driving into a panic stop ending up 45 degrees to the roadway. Fortunately, I happen to be traveling 5 mph under the speed limit at the time, giving me that extra margin of safety in stopping.
BarracksSi
02-26-08, 10:21 AM
Fortunately, I happen to be traveling 5 mph under the speed limit at the time, giving me that extra margin of safety in stopping.
Imagine going on a road with a 50 mph speed limit and a pedestrian crossing -- only, this time, there's a TV news crew standing there waiting to step in front of you and tell you that you're required to stop for them.
I wish I could find the clip. One of the local stations ran a story about this issue, and they found a particular crossing that went across a pretty fast four-lane divided roadway. They would -- and I'm not making this up -- wait for a car to come along and step in front of it. They'd then interview the driver, asking, "Did you know that you're required to stop for pedestrians here?"
On the other hand, speeding can save lives. Witness:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2171298164600836416
(really just a joke.. ;) )
San Rensho
02-26-08, 10:23 AM
The laws work. When I first moved to California, I was startled by the cars stopping the second you stepped into a cross walk. Here in Miami, Fl, the road rage capital of the world, cars accelerate for pedestrians in a cross walk. No respect whatsoever.
Of course it will take time for people to get used to mandatorily stopping for peds in a cross walk, but it does work.
dynodonn
02-26-08, 10:37 AM
Imagine going on a road with a 50 mph speed limit and a pedestrian crossing -- only, this time, there's a TV news crew standing there waiting to step in front of you and tell you that you're required to stop for them.
50 MPH ?, if that was the speed I was doing at the time, the stern look given by the young student would probably be her last. I'm never ceased to be amazed by what lengths the media will go to in order to get a story.
dynodonn
02-26-08, 10:43 AM
The laws work. When I first moved to California, I was startled by the cars stopping the second you stepped into a cross walk. Here in Miami, Fl, the road rage capital of the world, cars accelerate for pedestrians in a cross walk. No respect whatsoever.
Of course it will take time for people to get used to mandatorily stopping for peds in a cross walk, but it does work.
I approve of the law here in Cali, but a fair percentage of peds in my area seem to have little grasp on the laws of physics, and do not understand how much time and distance is needed in order to slow a vehicle, at speed, to a stop in a safe manner.
DCCommuter
02-26-08, 08:21 PM
The laws work. When I first moved to California, I was startled by the cars stopping the second you stepped into a cross walk. Here in Miami, Fl, the road rage capital of the world, cars accelerate for pedestrians in a cross walk. No respect whatsoever.
A little quick googling leads me to conclude that Florida and California have exactly the same law: motorists must yield -- but not necessarily stop --- to pedestrians at uncontrolled intersections and marked crosswalks. Incidentally, this is the current law in Virginia as well; the proposal on the table is to strengthen the requirement from yield to stop.
The conclusion I draw is just the opposite -- the law is much less important than the prevailing culture. In DC, we the law is stop, stronger than either FL or CA. Yet the police don't enforce it -- as I noted earlier, only 17 citations written in the past 29 months.
As I said earlier, there are striking parallels between pedestrian laws and bike laws. I don't believe that most motorists are bad people, they just don't know that they're supposed to stop at crosswalks. Similarly, most people have no idea what the law is regarding cyclists.
mattotoole
02-27-08, 01:05 AM
A little quick googling leads me to conclude that Florida and California have exactly the same law: motorists must yield -- but not necessarily stop --- to pedestrians at uncontrolled intersections and marked crosswalks. Incidentally, this is the current law in Virginia as well; the proposal on the table is to strengthen the requirement from yield to stop.
The conclusion I draw is just the opposite -- the law is much less important than the prevailing culture. In DC, we the law is stop, stronger than either FL or CA. Yet the police don't enforce it -- as I noted earlier, only 17 citations written in the past 29 months.
As I said earlier, there are striking parallels between pedestrian laws and bike laws. I don't believe that most motorists are bad people, they just don't know that they're supposed to stop at crosswalks. Similarly, most people have no idea what the law is regarding cyclists.
I've lived in CA most of my life and if the law is "yield" it's news to me. It was always so strictly enforced that you could be cited for not remaining stopped until the ped had stepped up on the far curb, even on a 6 lane road with an island in the middle.
Enforcement is a big part of this. It's strict in CA but a joke in the South. BTW, FL has the highest pedestrian and cyclist fatality rates.
Education is a big part of this too. Again, changing the law is a golden opportunity for a statewide teaching moment.
dynodonn
02-27-08, 08:03 AM
.......Education is a big part of this too........
I agree, not only for motorists but for peds as well. I'm on constant look out for peds when driving or bicycling and will stop for them, just in return, that they give me adequate stopping time to do so. Here's a link to some stopping distances (http://www.driveandstayalive.com/info%20section/stopping-distances.htm) that may prove valuable to many users of the road.