Fifty Plus (50+) - 50 miles and no food.

We all know the importance of nutrition. I have more meat on my bones than I wish I had and believed that it is like a battery to be used as needed. Well, I found out that it does not work that way.

I used the controlled environment of a trainer. Plenty of food the night before. Large triple oatmeal BF with milk and fresh fruit. Go on a hydraulic resistance trainer at 17 MPH at 90 RPM sitting and 17 MPH at 50 RPM standing (30%). I did that for three hours. No additional food. Two pitchers of Ice Tea.

Everything was fine for about 40 miles. My HR was 115 -120. After 40 miles my HR increased to above 130 and I was feeling sort of out of it. Getting off the bike after 50 miles made me feel a little dizzy and I definitely needed food.

My opinion is that the body cannot convert fat fast enough to keep pedaling at 17 MPH once the carbs are used up. This test was done to discuss it with some serious bikers.

Does anybody have a more studied information?

Will, your HR will rise as you heat up, Dr Arnie Baker calls this heart rate drift. 50 miles is about most peoples limit for no food, depends upon the intensity of your ride, and your individual storage capacity. We all store somewhere in the 1800 kcal of glycogen in our muscles and liver, and at 600-700 use per hour, that's about 3 hours worth. Everything I read says that you train your body to be able to convert fat to energy, but there is some cap, the fitter you are the more fat % you burn, until you go anaerobic when you'll burn almost all carbohydrate. Sounds like you were right at the edge of your ability to store and convert carbohydrates.

As I heard it, if you keep the heart rate somewhere around 60% of max, you can go all day metabolizing fat. Somewhat higher, you consume sugar, and finally you get into glycogen.

A couple of years ago I did a no/low carb diet for several weeks and lost 32 lbs. The first day of a vacation and off the diet, I took off on an "easy" ride on a bike trail. I bonked at exactly 50 miles. Got light headed, no power in the pedal, a little blurry in the vision. I found some shade, drank some Gatorade and ate a Powerbar. I felt better and made it home for a 65 miler. It taught me a lesson. Well, not totally. I bonked again a couple of months ago, albeit not quite as bad. I was late to meet my group and didn't eat. After about 25 miles of pounding, was feeling the same. I only made it home because it was mostly downhill.

Welcome back, Will. Where ya been?

Yeah, where have* you been? There's been 2 threads started, wondering.... We've missed you.

He's been on the trainer. Good grief, 3 hours??? After 30 minutes on that torture rack I am ready to quit cycling altogether.
I have ridden 50 miles non-stop on the road at a moderate pace and got pretty hungry, but after a snack it was back on the road and I felt fine.

Glad to see you back and posting. I can barely stay on the trainer for 30 minutes:(

There are some references to studies listed at the bottom of this article that might help.

http://www.powerbar.com/NutritionResource/ToolsArticles/ArticlesDetails.aspx?id=41F0A8BD-2367-466C-8106-CA2038FE166F

Without food, I bonk within 40 miles / 65 km.

I don't even drive 50 miles without food.

Marathoners call it "the wall". It can be devastating. The awkward thing is, you get into a zone where you don't feel like eating and can get into serious trouble. On long rides with newbies I always insist they eat if I discover them saying they're "not really hungry."

Never been big on eating while riding, but I've found lately that spiking my water bottle with Hammer Nutrition HEED really makes a difference in the way I feel and ride on 50+ mile efforts. Did 56 miles last Saturday (including a few miles of yesterday's TOC course) and would have done another 10 or 20 if the sun hadn't been going down. Initially went to Hammer for the cheap bibs, but the nutrition product samples that came with them made a believer out of me, and I'm pretty skeptical about this kind of stuff. Sorry if I sound too much like a commercial, but these are the first nutrition products and supplements I've ever used that actually made a difference I could feel. (If you use my customer number 103663 as a referral you'll get 15% off, which makes those Voler bibs a real bargain.)
<End shameless plug>

You should post this on the road forum.

Don't come back here until you're ready to start making the mandated pie stop on 50 mile rides.

I agree with deKlein re: Hammer Products!

I was on the bike for 15 Hours, 39 Minutes last Saturday, and at each checkpoint (approx. 35 - 40 miles apart) I would add 3 scoops of Sustained Energy (similar to HEED but without the electrolites), a couple of squirts of Hammer Gel (Expresso or Chocolate), fill with ice, fill the spaces between the ice with water . . . shake Camelback to mix.

I had Gatorade in my water bottle, just for something different, plus I was taking E-Caps (Electrolite replacement, also by Hammer) 2 caps at each checkpoint. No cramps all day!

The only downside is that you don't have anything to "chew" on, i.e. "real" food (or pie), but looking at the big picture (esp. on a double century), liquid diet makes a lot of sense.

So, as I was drinking I was also "eating" and pouring some easy to digest nutrition into my system. I never even came close to "bonking" the whole day/night and when I finished I wasn't the least bit hungry.

Rick / OCRR

Whenerver I do these long rides- I have a problem start at around the 6 hour mark- which is incidentally 50 miles offroad. No matter how much I have Carbo loaded in the weeks before- Have a good breakfast on the morning- and snack up to the 6 hour mark-----I start to lose energy at that 6 hour mark. What I do is stop and eat something a bit more substantial. For me that would be a Rice or pasta based dish but My co-riders prefer a Burger. Makes no difference really as I all I, and they, need is extra carbs to replace what I have used up already. Trouble is that by this time- I have snacked so much- I don't feel like eating so It is normally a rice or pasta with a sauce of some kind to help it slip down easier. And it is NEVER a Pot Noodle.

Rick-have your tried Perpetuem by Hammer by chance? I read where it doesn't work well for a hydration pack and is time sensitive for use but didn't know if you had any experience with it on your longer rides.

I can easily ride over 50 miles at well over 17 mph without breakfast or eating during the ride. I also do not need to gorge myself the night before either. I did 54 miles Saturday without gorging on Friday, eating breakfast, or eating on the ride. If I am riding over 60 miles, it is a good idea to eat something. But I don't need anything on distances shorter than that.

I think everyone is a bit different on these things. Now I did not eat but I sucked down plenty of water.

Rick-have your tried Perpetuem by Hammer by chance? I read where it doesn't work well for a hydration pack and is time sensitive for use but didn't know if you had any experience with it on your longer rides.

Hi jppe,

Yes, I've tried Perpetuem and in fact at the Interbike show I hunted up the Hammer booth and asked them exactly what the difference was between Sustained Energy and Perpetuem. The answer: "Perpetuem is flavored, Sustained Energy is not."

So, being the experimental guy that I am, I bought a big jug of Perpetuem and tried it over several weeks. My conclusion: "Works just as well as Sustained Energy, but tastes better (or at least, has some taste)."

Regarding "time sensitivity" they are both time sensitive . . . but its not a short time. I never mix it ahead of time, it's always: Into the Camelback and a minute or two later, Start Drinking! Usually it's mostly gone by the time I hit the next checkpoint.

The other reason I use Sustained Energy instead of Perpetuem is because on the doubles I ride here in CA, Sustained Energy is usually what's available at the checkpoints. Plus, I use a squirt (or two) of some flavor of Hammer Gel to flavor the Sustained Energy, plus of course, Hammer Gel has nutrients too.

On doubles that don't supply "Funnel Food" (our name for food you drink because they use a funnel to pour it into bottles and Camelbacks) I carry zip-lock baggies of Sustained Energy and Hammer Gel packets to accomplish the same things.

Geez Rick, I got hungry just reading about your double century.

Rick

Finding the supplement that suits you, and you like the taste of, takes carefull judgement and experimentation. I have one I like but don't treat it as a food replacement- I like eating too much.

But back on that taste. I use a substance --Yes its a white powder--called leppin and I have the fruit burst flavour. Its one I like and it likes me. On a long ride a few years ago- On the Tandem and we had the back up vehicle travelling en-route. pre-arranged meeting places but at one- we missed each other. No food left and no Leppin. A couple of riders saw our problem and gave us a power bar- The first I have ever had and the last- but they offered us Maxim to fill the camelbacks with. We took them up on their offer but left water in the bottles. Couple of minutes later and Stuart screeched to halt. He had just taken his first taste of Maxim. He had to stop the Tandem quick as he had to get to the water bottle quick to wash his mouth out. Could not believe it was that bad so I tasted. It was. I have never tasted anything so foul in all my life. very sweet sacharin taste- but it was tasteless- and it left a furry feeling in the mouth.

For the next couple of miles we tried to contact the back up and when we did meet up- We used a lot of water to wash out the camelbacks and almost had to call into a pub to get a decent drink inside us.

And I used full strength leppin on Ventoux last year. For me- this works.

Right Stapfam,

Finding the food substitute that works for you is kind of like finding that perfect saddle . . . i.e. it won't be the same answer for everyone. On our doubles we don't have the luxury of a back-up vehicle, but we do have checkpoints.

So our options are as follows:

1. Use the "funnel food" which is Sustained Energy or Perpetuem with Hammer Gel (mostly)
2. Eat the solid food which is also available at the checkpoints
3. Bring our own along, in our jersey pockets or our bike bag(s)

I've never tried Maxim or Leppin, but I have tried (and liked) SPIZ and Ultra-Energy. Also, while I'm not fond of them, I can eat the occasional Power Bar with no bad effects! Yes, I prefer Clif bars, but I'm fairly adaptable.

I know several riders who have had "stomach problems" (that term takes in a lot of variables!) on doubles, but all have (eventually) been able to determine the cause and find alternate foods or energy drinks.

One friend of mine found his stomach problems were caused when he drank plain water. I found that rather unlikely, but he is sure that is the cause of his problems. He can drink just about anything else, except plain water.

So I say: Fnd what works for you and stay with it! Of course, be open-minded enough to try new things as they come along, but take careful notes (mental or otherwise) to find what's best for your internal systems.

Rick / OCRR

Hi jppe,

Yes, I've tried Perpetuem and in fact at the Interbike show I hunted up the Hammer booth and asked them exactly what the difference was between Sustained Energy and Perpetuem. The answer: "Perpetuem is flavored, Sustained Energy is not."

So, being the experimental guy that I am, I bought a big jug of Perpetuem and tried it over several weeks. My conclusion: "Works just as well as Sustained Energy, but tastes better (or at least, has some taste)."

Regarding "time sensitivity" they are both time sensitive . . . but its not a short time. I never mix it ahead of time, it's always: Into the Camelback and a minute or two later, Start Drinking! Usually it's mostly gone by the time I hit the next checkpoint.

The other reason I use Sustained Energy instead of Perpetuem is because on the doubles I ride here in CA, Sustained Energy is usually what's available at the checkpoints. Plus, I use a squirt (or two) of some flavor of Hammer Gel to flavor the Sustained Energy, plus of course, Hammer Gel has nutrients too.

On doubles that don't supply "Funnel Food" (our name for food you drink because they use a funnel to pour it into bottles and Camelbacks) I carry zip-lock baggies of Sustained Energy and Hammer Gel packets to accomplish the same things.


That is very helpful. I'm not sure I'd like the flavor of the Perpetuem but might like the idea of the Sustained + Hammer Gel flavored. Might have to give that a try on some training rides. I really need to add some better recovery stuff to the regimen as well.

That is very helpful. I'm not sure I'd like the flavor of the Perpetuem but might like the idea of the Sustained + Hammer Gel flavored. Might have to give that a try on some training rides. I really need to add some better recovery stuff to the regimen as well.

Yes, and the nice thing about using Hammer Gel to add flavor is that there are so many different flavors of Hammer Gel that you can add a different one at each checkpoint :).

So . . . even if you're not eating "real" food, at least your taste buds can be "somewhat" entertained :D.

Rick / OCRR

My opinion is that the body cannot convert fat fast enough to keep pedaling at 17 MPH once the carbs are used up. This test was done to discuss it with some serious bikers.



Exactly. :beer:

There are many succesfull ways to handle this, including having some carbs right then and there and waiting for some more energy. For me, high carb liquids keep me going and will bring me back very quickly if I am too tired. Many of the fruit drinks in a convenience store are perfect for this if you are not prepared with something else. A great way to get some fast fuel.
Fruit punch will bring me back in 15 minutes.

You guys have stable metabolisms. After 50 minutes of sustained effort, I will start to fade if I haven't been eating/drinking. I use gels on the bike as well as Accelerade. The Accelerade is about the only one I found doesn't upset my stomach and has enough in it to keep me going. I also like nutty power bars, no flavoring, just nuts and berries. Clif Luna's are good, also. I have to start stoking my stove within 30 minutes and keep it fed for longer efforts.

After an hour, my heart rate starts ramping up, especially if not eating and it is devastating. Even with some nutrition, I can only limit it's run. If you ride 2+ hours without food, you definitely have me beat. I have even found that in the gym, I get about 45 minutes before fading. I have to eat.

Hi guys:
Thank you for all the good comments. I need to clarify my post above.

My normal nutrition for training 100 miles was/is: BF is triple oatmeal with fruit. One energy bar every hour plus Gatorade, lunch is a big eggbeater omelette, followed with energy bar every hour.
I had no problems with this routine for two months.

The above mentioned test was to settle a discussion with an experienced biker who had HR difficulties as he went over 50 miles with me. I noticed that he did not eat so I tested that on my own body with above results. I reported this to this guy but thought you guys may have some input and you do.

Welcome back, Will. Where ya been?

Hiding in FL. No computer just my wife a Tandem, the Madone and me doing 100 miles/day for two months.

Glad to see you back and posting. I can barely stay on the trainer for 30 minutes:(
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Here is something you may want to try. It helped me and others:
Go in a mid-range gear at 90 RPM and perhaps 16-17 MPH. Sit down and do it for two miles.
Go in the biggest gear at 50 RPM standing up also 16-17 MPH for two miles.
Sit down again and do the two miles as above.

Get off the bike. Stretch your legs and reward yourselves with some energy drink you love.

Repeat the above as long as you can stand it.
I have done 100 miles that way in one day.

100 miles a day? That's a vacation?

I was in Florida for a week, but was up in the NE corner, in St Augustine & Palatka. Bev is either down there now or so to be there.

So you are now grinding it out for 3 hours a day on your trainer, waiting for it to warm up in northern Illinois and southern Wisconsin?

Here is something you may want to try. It helped me and others:
Go in a mid-range gear at 90 RPM and perhaps 16-17 MPH. Sit down and do it for two miles.
Go in the biggest gear at 50 RPM standing up also 16-17 MPH for two miles.
Sit down again and do the two miles as above.

Get off the bike. Stretch your legs and reward yourselves with some energy drink you love.

Repeat the above as long as you can stand it.
I have done 100 miles that way in one day.

I printed this out and will give it a try. The weather has been terrible and I haven't been out too much on the bike. I really need to get in gear if I want to do TOSRV in May.

I was in Florida for a week, but was up in the NE corner, in St Augustine & Palatka. Bev is either down there now or so to be there.



I've been there and back:) It's an annual trip to watch the Florida High School wrestling tournaments. Florida weather was fantastic but the flying portion of the trip was a nightmare:(

Sorry to hear you are back already ... you should have stayed down there in the warm sun for a few more days.

My travel down and back was perfect. No waits at the airports, every leg of the trip on time.

I printed this out and will give it a try. The weather has been terrible and I haven't been out too much on the bike. I really need to get in gear if I want to do TOSRV in May.

Beverly:
I am really trying to assist here. Doing two miles sitting should be possible, right? It does not have to be 17 MPH. How about 16? But keep the cadence up close to 90 RPM.

Standing up will pump blood through your vitals as well as it is really a different form of exercise such as a StairMaster. After that doing the next two miles sitting down will seem easy.

Get a reward after that. How about a piece of chocolate?

100 miles a day? That's a vacation?

I was in Florida for a week, but was up in the NE corner, in St Augustine & Palatka. Bev is either down there now or so to be there.

So you are now grinding it out for 3 hours a day on your trainer, waiting for it to warm up in northern Illinois and southern Wisconsin?

Tom:
Believe me, 70 miles before lunch is no ordeal after all that training. My HR hardly ever goes above 120 and often is only 100. The 30 miles after lunch is like a walk in the Park.

We are going down to FL again in March. We had to come up here to find some money laying around to pay for all this.

Welcome back, Will. I've been wondering about you and if you're enjoying your retirement.

You did this as an experiment?? You ARE the ironman.

Welcome back, Will. I've been wondering about you and if you're enjoying your retirement.

You did this as an experiment?? You ARE the ironman.

Yen:
Reality check!
I did run into four fellows who trained for Iron-man.
Andy, on a special bike for triathlon. The tires were $100 tubeless. He carried exact measured liquid nourishment for his 50 mile ride. I was able to keep up with him for a while but later hat to ask permission to draft at 21.5 MPH. He is mid 30's. Runs a Real Estate Firm in Delaware.

Eddy was/is a biking coach. He was training on a fixed gear bike at average 20 MPH. I was able to keep up and sometime drop him. His age was 60.

There were two more guys on bikes with fixed gears training for Triathlon. I could only keep up for 6-10 miles.

Sorry to hear you are back already ... you should have stayed down there in the warm sun for a few more days.

My travel down and back was perfect. No waits at the airports, every leg of the trip on time.

Why couldn't my trip be like that:mad: Layovers in airports due to bad weather, missed connections due to the delays, lost luggage, car rental screw-up, hotel keys that wouldn't unlock door, knob fell off restroom door on plane, etc. It took 17.5 hours to get from Dayton to Orlando. The return flight only had a 4 hour delay but the ride from Cincinnati to Dayton was like riding a roller coaster:eek::eek:

The only thing that affects my HR in a 4hr or less ride is hydration. I never have noticed a change in HR whether I eat or don't during these lengths of ride. I normally will take one gel but I have also ridden without eating with no problems. I do eat a moderate breakfast, usually bagel + cream cheese.

I can monitor my hydration by looking at my HR. When I start getting dehydrated my HR starts to rise so at the beginning of the ride I may be at 70% MHR riding at 18mph and when I get dehydrated this will rise to 85%. When I notice my HR going up as my speed starts to drop I know I am in trouble, unfortunately by that time there is little you can do about it. So I try to be proactive by drinking more ahead of time to prevent this. In addition I have basically give up rides of >40mi from June - Sept as no matter how much I drink I sweat so much in the high humidity that I cannot keep up.

I seem to be able to ride my bike for hours without having to eat but on the other hand I can walk through the kitchen and it seems I'm always finding something to snack on.

Beverly:
I am really trying to assist here. Doing two miles sitting should be possible, right? It does not have to be 17 MPH. How about 16? But keep the cadence up close to 90 RPM.

Standing up will pump blood through your vitals as well as it is really a different form of exercise such as a StairMaster. After that doing the next two miles sitting down will seem easy.

Get a reward after that. How about a piece of chocolate?

My comfort speed is right around 14-15 so kicking it up to 16 shouldn't be a problem. I haven't done too much standing on the trainer so I'll need to get used to that.

Chocolate sounds great but I've gained a couple pounds the past two weeks....I'll need to skip it at the moment:(

Yen:
Eddy was/is a biking coach. He was training on a fixed gear bike at average 20 MPH. I was able to keep up and sometime drop him. His age was 60.


There was a 1980-84 Olympic cycling coach named Eddie Borysewicz, I have a great book he wrote.
Could it be Eddie B. ? He would be 69 now.

My comfort speed is right around 14-15 so kicking it up to 16 shouldn't be a problem. I haven't done too much standing on the trainer so I'll need to get used to that.

Chocolate sounds great but I've gained a couple pounds the past two weeks....I'll need to skip it at the moment:(

My Son, 45 years old, former smoker, is where you are reporting. His body weight to leg strength is off. That means that his HR goes way up standing. You lift your body as you know. Just a little warning if you try this. OTOH, standing up frequently and prolonged has really made me a faster biker and I can also bike longer at higher average.
Just sitting down gets old after a while and the speed tends to drop off.

The only thing that affects my HR in a 4hr or less ride is hydration. I never have noticed a change in HR whether I eat or don't during these lengths of ride. I normally will take one gel but I have also ridden without eating with no problems. I do eat a moderate breakfast, usually bagel + cream cheese.

I can monitor my hydration by looking at my HR. When I start getting dehydrated my HR starts to rise so at the beginning of the ride I may be at 70% MHR riding at 18mph and when I get dehydrated this will rise to 85%. When I notice my HR going up as my speed starts to drop I know I am in trouble, unfortunately by that time there is little you can do about it. So I try to be proactive by drinking more ahead of time to prevent this. In addition I have basically give up rides of >40mi from June - Sept as no matter how much I drink I sweat so much in the high humidity that I cannot keep up.

I did drink a large glass of Ice Tea every 6 miles.
However I did some more testing. The HR is Very sensitive to ambient temperature. I opened up the window, fan blowing from behind, room temperature dropped to F 50. My HR also dropped.

Another variable is the pressure of the tire against the friction wheel of the trainer. I have a cheap trainer which has no Watts meter. All this means is that I am not sure that the lack of food is the culprit. But that is why I posted.:)

I did drink a large glass of Ice Tea every 6 miles.
However I did some more testing. The HR is Very sensitive to ambient temperature. I opened up the window, fan blowing from behind, room temperature dropped to F 50. My HR also dropped.

Another variable is the pressure of the tire against the friction wheel of the trainer. I have a cheap trainer which has no Watts meter. All this means is that I am not sure that the lack of food is the culprit. But that is why I posted.:)

Then I would say you were probably over heating (hyperthermia), same thing happens with dehydration. Your body can't keep cool, your vessels dilate to produce more blood flow and cooling which results in BP dropping and your heart rate increasing. Eventually your body just shuts down.

I seem to be able to ride my bike for hours without having to eat but on the other hand I can walk through the kitchen and it seems I'm always finding something to snack on.

:D You got a witness!

A very interesting thread, and lots of information. Thanks, all.

As a type 1 (insulin dependent) diabetic for the last 35 years, I have to monitor the equation closely - energy in, energy out, and insulin as catalyst. I have to keep blood sugar low to avoid long term problems, and high enough to avoid short term problems (bonking, hitting the wall, crashing the car, expressing frustration at incidental idiocy;)).

Two factors are additional considerations for me - temperature, and brain work!

Back when I was running, my two fastest and easiest marathons were Singapore and (on a hot day) San Francisco. A chilly London Marathon had me hitting about five walls with severe hypoglycemia. I did so much better in 30 degrees C than 8 degrees C. It's the same with skiing. I don't ski in anything like an athletic style, but I need vastly more carbohydrate and significantly less insulin on the slopes than when I'm running or biking in the warm.

Brain work - running seminars and courses for smart people requires me to be on top of the subject, the timing, the stage management of the event, the group dynamics and a whole load of other variables - and it wouldn't do to bonk in front of the group. Needs a lot more food than on a non-performance day!

Back in student days, I was astonished by how I'd get the sweats and the trembles, and need a fruit bar, in exams. Y'old brain's a hungry piece of jelly.

Then I would say you were probably over heating (hyperthermia), same thing happens with dehydration. Your body can't keep cool, your vessels dilate to produce more blood flow and cooling which results in BP dropping and your heart rate increasing. Eventually your body just shuts down.

This thread has been inactive so I hope this information does not get lost:
I repeated above test again considering "stonecrd" comments.

He is correct. I changed nothing except allowed more time to cool off every 6 miles. Problem was solved. My HR never went above 120. Interesting because I lowered the room temperature. It seems that 17 MPH generates a lot of body heat which does not get dissipated in a room but is no problem on the road.