Fifty Plus (50+) - Did 72 today....spokes, that is...

Laced up my first set of wheels, and it was REALLY enjoyable. I like* wheel building a lot. It's very suited to my nature...I like picky, precise things that make you almost meditate while you're doing them. I scratched my rims a bit, because we did the technique where you load up all the spokes first, and I had a hard time handling them.

They had drills there with special bits that put each nipple on the exact same amount. Anyone know where I can get a bit like this? It was really nice.

I like the campy hubs I was using because there was no label to line up!

Anyway, I was the only one that didn't make a mistake, so I was very proud.

Tomorrow we true them.

They had drills there with special bits that put each nipple on the exact same amount. Anyone know where I can get a bit like this? It was really nice.

I use a non-powered nipple driver that looks like a screwdriver that has an "S" curve in it. I stick my left thumbnail in the last spoke thread and spin the nipple until it stops against my thumbnail. I don't think that it's as fast as the powered nipple drivers but the tool is cheaper to buy and I feel like I have better control over it.

At last you are being initiated into the great mysteries of wheelbuilding. After you have completed your first set of wheels, you will be given the secret handshake and the smug attitude mask....:D

Now you must begin picking through Ebay and Craiglist posts to find suitable hubs and rims. The N+1 rule may apply to wheels just like it does to bicycles.

And just like with building bicycles, it is discouraging to find that the parts generally cost more than the whole. :(

I woke up today wondering if I should bite the bullet and turn my formal library into a bike shop.

I sleep in the smallest bedroom of my house...10x12. the only thing in there is a bed. I have a tuckunder garage; the other rooms are over the garage and get cold in the winter.

My main bedroom is a "textile" room. It's pet free so I don't get dog/cat hair all over my clothes. I keep linens and towels in there in addition to my clothes. I sew in there.

The third bedroom is 4 big bookshelves and a large writing desk. It's very pretty. I like it. But I don't actually read in there, and the shelves have slowly gone from holding books to holding camera/computer stuff. I have a lot of video and computer equipment. It's become the storage space for my studio in the basement an all the books have gone up north or down south. I work from home.

Anyway... I never use my living room or dining room, so I may repurpose those into something more usable and give up my library. I have a huge roll-top desk big enough to build wheels on. The only thing I'm worried about is screwing up my hardwood floors. But it would be a nice workroom at 16x12.

My house will be really ugly, though, with a bike room and a giant closet room and a tiny room with a bed in it.

My house will be really ugly, though, with a bike room and a giant closet room and a tiny room with a bed in it.

Au contraire, ma cher. Beauty is as beauty does.

Y'know, as I get older, it becomes all about family, friends, dogs, and bikes. May as well go with the flow.

Hey! Waitaminute. I just started riding again after a long haitus. What have you people done to me????????

Hey! Waitaminute. I just started riding again after a long haitus. What have you people done to me????????

That's how cults work, silly girl. Now you are ours!

MWAH-HA-HA-HA-HAAAA!

I sleep in the smallest bedroom of my house...10x12. the only thing in there is a bed. I have a tuckunder garage; the other rooms are over the garage and get cold in the winter.

Our condo has a tuck under garage beneath the kitchen. Last fall we replaced our garage door with one that is much better insulated. It has made a world of difference in the temperature of the kitchen floor.

Incidentally, my bicycle shop is in front of the garage. That's a great location for the bike shop but it leaves the garage a little bit short. That was the deciding factor in our purchase of a Honda Element because it's short enough to fit our garage but big enough to fit our tandem inside the car.

Hmmmm. I have room in the front of my garage, too, but I'd have to lose my big shelves that run the span.

which means that if I get a new garage door and a new shed in the yard, I could do that.

Did you notice a difference in your heating bills with the new door?

Edit: OR...as long as I would have to build a shed....I could make a bike shed.... hmmmm. options, options.

Hmmmm. I have room in the front of my garage, too, but I'd have to lose my big shelves that run the span.

which means that if I get a new garage door and a new shed in the yard, I could do that.

Did you notice a difference in your heating bills with the new door?

Edit: OR...as long as I would have to build a shed....I could make a bike shed.... hmmmm. options, options.

How big is the yard?


Over here we have two types of house owners. Those that want a bigger garden and those that want a cabbage patch. For some reason- they each seem to live in the wrong type of house. I have just under 1/4 of an Acre- if that measurement means anything to you. Sensible size but I would like more. Currently it is big enough for a bike shed- but Whatever size you get on sheds- its is always too small. Mine is 10ft wide and that fits the space I have in that corner. It is 16ft long and I thought would be big enough. It isn't.

I do believe your materials (Lumber?) are cheaper over there but is it worth building your own? I could have built for about the same price as I bought and It arrived in sections and a month later it was up. If I were to have built it- It would have been a year before it would have been ready for use. Only advantage would have been that it would have been 12 ft wide and 24 ft long.

So measure out the yard and buy a shed to fill it. That way you might be able to get the bike in after the redundant gardening tools and the mower.


The only other option would have been to use the garage- but the wife uses that aswell. all those useless things are kept in there like the hoover- the ironing board and the new swimming pool that is this years project in the garden.

Whatever you choose to keep the bikes in- 10 x16 is about the minimum size to get if you want to work on the bikes in there aswell. Bigger would be better- but much bigger and you can move the bed in there and work on the bikes in the house in comfort and warmth.

I have a bit over a quarter acre. I don't use it. Seriously. I pay a guy to mow it and I think I only stepped on the grass to trim some hedges and take some bike photos. I have no gardens, and few trees. It's boring, but I'm not here enough in the growing season to take care of anything. I figure blank but tended is better than overgrown good intentions and weed gardens.

Sheds are expensive. I really could get away with just a tiny one to put the snowblower, lawn mower and lawn stuff in that is against the front of my garage.

I think I'll have to work this out on graph paper and see what's doable. In winter up here, I wouldn't want to work in the garage or* in a shed, so it may not be practical at all. the garage maintains at around 40 degrees...I don't know how much better it would be with a new garage door.

I was very pleased to read that you built 36-spoke wheels, which make far more engineering sense that today's fashionable paired-spokers, 20-spokers, etc.

Laced up my first set of wheels, and it was REALLY enjoyable. I like* wheel building a lot. It's very suited to my nature...I like picky, precise things that make you almost meditate while you're doing them. I scratched my rims a bit, because we did the technique where you load up all the spokes first, and I had a hard time handling them.

They had drills there with special bits that put each nipple on the exact same amount. Anyone know where I can get a bit like this? It was really nice.

I like the campy hubs I was using because there was no label to line up!

Anyway, I was the only one that didn't make a mistake, so I was very proud.

Tomorrow we true them.

Hey well done Solveg :D

The nice thing about working on bicycles inside the house is that it's nice and snuggly warm in Winter and the kitchen is real close when it's time to make a cup of tea (which is anytime). All I did this Winter past was lay down sheets of corrogated cardboard on the floor on top of a big dropcloth and I had no problems at all and didn't make a mess of the floor.

I was very pleased to read that you built 36-spoke wheels, which make far more engineering sense that today's fashionable paired-spokers, 20-spokers, etc.

:D I agree!

Sianelle: Yeah... the inside the house thing does seem the most comfy. It just seems so radical to give up the prettiest room in the house for it.

I'm not going to follow your lead. I'm terrible at repetitive fine motor skill work. Can't imagine how much I'd be bouncing off of walls after I'd completed installing 27 spokes and still had 45 to go.

But I certainly applaud your accomplishment, Solveg.

Do you plan to develop another bicycle repair/build skill?

I'm not going to follow your lead. I'm terrible at repetitive fine motor skill work. Can't imagine how much I'd be bouncing off of walls after I'd completed installing 27 spokes and still had 45 to go.

But I certainly applaud your accomplishment, Solveg.

Do you plan to develop another bicycle repair/build skill?

Yes! But first I have to practice what I know. I know just enough about bicycle mechanics to be dangerous. But I figure if I still like tinkering when I'm 55, I'd like to take a frame making class.

But, in the near future, I'm going to decoupage a bike!

Tom, you'd be surprised at how fast it goes. Lacing the wheel took about 30 minutes for the second one, longer for the first because I kept double checking myself.

I'll let you know how long truing takes. But Sheldon Brown says a wheel builder can do a complete wheel in about an hour, which matches up with the low cost of getting one made.

Well, done! :beer:

Now just learn welding and painting and you can do anything!

Did you notice a difference in your heating bills with the new door?

Funny you should ask. The answer to that question is a longer story than you probably want to hear. The short answer is "No, but it's not the door's fault."

I woke up today wondering if I should bite the bullet and turn my formal library into a bike shop.

I sleep in the smallest bedroom of my house...10x12. the only thing in there is a bed. I have a tuckunder garage; the other rooms are over the garage and get cold in the winter.

My main bedroom is a "textile" room. It's pet free so I don't get dog/cat hair all over my clothes. I keep linens and towels in there in addition to my clothes. I sew in there.

The third bedroom is 4 big bookshelves and a large writing desk. It's very pretty. I like it. But I don't actually read in there, and the shelves have slowly gone from holding books to holding camera/computer stuff. I have a lot of video and computer equipment. It's become the storage space for my studio in the basement an all the books have gone up north or down south. I work from home.

Anyway... I never use my living room or dining room, so I may repurpose those into something more usable and give up my library. I have a huge roll-top desk big enough to build wheels on. The only thing I'm worried about is screwing up my hardwood floors. But it would be a nice workroom at 16x12.

My house will be really ugly, though, with a bike room and a giant closet room and a tiny room with a bed in it.

Our real smallest bedroom is only big enough for say a crib and chiffarobe or some such. It's my computer, library, stereo room, and reading room. It's a frickin' mess so I only do computer from there.

Biggest BR is Creative Quilter and Choral Music World Headquarters. Living room is for music and flowers, dining room is where the table is and the mail gets answered, adn the sun room is the Auxiliary bike shop. It has a big stereo, the biggest TV, a sofa, the trainer, and Mrs Road Fan's bike always in "take me for a ride condition." it also has a turntable on which are all the small tools needed for bike fitting. We usually eat here, read and watch TV.

The basement has the Main bike shop - service stand, toolboxes, the C&V Storage Vault with parts, bikes, booze, extra wheels, parts needing to be shipped, parts needing to be installed. fasteners for parts, broken fasterners for parts, litter box, laundry, and cat food. It also has most of my parents' possessions in it. 50 + life!

Oh, yeah, wheels! If I shove aside all the extra wheels in teh C&V Storage Vault, I find a truing stand!!

I need a grinding wheel, tool wall, and a well-lit workbench.

Road Fan

Road Fan, that sounds like a great house!

I had something odd happen with my wheel tonight.

I thought I did a really good job. There was virtually no dish change side to side (less than 1 mm), the roundness and true looked beautiful. Then we put the tensiometer on it, and all the spokes were 13 on one side and all the spokes on the other side were 14.

I don't know how to fix it without screwing up my dish.

campy centaur hub, Velocity aerohead rims, double butted spokes.

If you check, you may find that there is no requirement for the spokes to have similar tension from side to side. The Park Tools spec is +/- 20% from the average of the side you are checking. Most wheelbuilders will better the 20% mark, but beyond that, trueness and dish are what's important.

I assume that since you expected the same tension on each side that you are working on a front, non-disc wheel with equal flange spacing each side of center and that you are not using an OCR rim..........:eek:

All you non wheel builders can avert you view while we practice in the secret tongue.

I think it is an OCR wheel. Does that mean "Off Center Receivers" or something like that?

Each nipple hole in the wheel is slightly off center in a staggered pattern. One barely to the left and one barely to the right. They are Velocity Aeroheads with Campy Centaur hubs and double butted spokes.



But I think I may have solved the problem in my sleep. I won't be able to tell until I get my own truing stand.

Right from the beginning, I was confused because the wheel sat in the stand asymmetrically. I asked about it, but it looked OK to her. It's a Park TS-2 or whatever that's called, and I thought it was supposed to be self-centering.

Anyway, she kind of just said it was OK and I could turn my wheel around a lot to just make sure.

Then, as I was working on the roundness, I noticed that the little guides at the bottom didn't line up with the edge of the rim perfectly. The left side would consistently hit the rim before the right side. I asked again if this was normal, and she said because this was a coop, the equipment could be banged up a little or something, and that, once again, if I just made sure to turn the wheel over I would be OK.

This made sense, as I've read that some people true wheels in bikes and would be working in a less precise environment than I was.

So I flipped my wheel a lot, and I was really happy with it until the end with the tensiometer.

It has now occurred to me that the rim* could be off. Maybe there was some machining error which made one side a tad longer and maybe that translated to different spoke tension????

Although, as I'm looking at the wheel, I don't see how the lip of the wheel would impact the spoke tension. So I guess I better go back to sleep and figure out something new.

OCR=Off center rim. To be used for rear wheel in some applications. The spoke holes would be spaced around a centerline slightly toward one side of the rim. You would position that offset centerline toward the non drive side of the wheel to improve the geometry of the spoke/rim/hub so as not to have too much dishing on the drive side. This is only available from some manufacturers and is one of those theories that is accepted by some and not by others.

Y'know, as I get older, it becomes all about family, friends, dogs, and bikes. May as well go with the flow.

Hey! Waitaminute. I just started riding again after a long haitus. What have you people done to me????????

Substitute cat for dog and I could have written that line:)

My living and dining rooms are still intact but the family room is now a multi-purpose room. The weight bench and other exercise equipment are tucked behind the sofa and sofa table. The large chair has been shoved aside to make room for the bike and trainer. The pass-thru to the kitchen makes a handy place for setting water bottles and other items I might want while riding the trainer.

Houses are for living.....use it the way you want!

OCR=Off center rim.

OK. I found a picture of it. It is available in this wheel, which is why I was confused... but now I see what OCR really means. No, it's not OCR.

Beverly, at least bikes aren't as big as other things. Life could be worse... I could could have 12 cars or motorcycles or snowmobiles.

OCR=Off center rim. To be used for rear wheel in some applications. The spoke holes would be spaced around a centerline slightly toward one side of the rim. You would position that offset centerline toward the non drive side of the wheel to improve the geometry of the spoke/rim/hub so as not to have too much dishing on the drive side. This is only available from some manufacturers and is one of those theories that is accepted by some and not by others.

Solveg, so it was the rear wheel in which you saw the 13/14 assymetry in spoke tension? I think you said you are using an off-center rim for that, at least that's why I was recommending Velocity Aeroheads to you in the past. That doesn't sound like a big difference, in that case!

Somewhere I have an article on the difference in spoke tension, I think in the Goldberg book ... problem with old engineers is we don't remember where we put all the good stuff we forgot!

As far as your dishing issue, there is a low cost device called a dishing guage. I have an old one made by Minoura, about $9.00 20 years ago, probably up to $9.49 now. You need an indicator that is independent of your (moveable) brake shoes and your teacher's (not necessarily aligned) Park stand.

Road Fan

Example of dishing guage: Park WAG3 (cheap) and Park WAG4 (expensive)

Solveg, so it was the rear wheel in which you saw the 13/14 assymetry in spoke tension? I think you said you are using an off-center rim for that, at least that's why I was recommending Velocity Aeroheads to you in the past. That doesn't sound like a big difference, in that case!

Somewhere I have an article on the difference in spoke tension, I think in the Goldberg book ... problem with old engineers is we don't remember where we put all the good stuff we forgot!

As far as your dishing issue, there is a low cost device called a dishing guage. I have an old one made by Minoura, about $9.00 20 years ago, probably up to $9.49 now. You need an indicator that is independent of your (moveable) brake shoes and your teacher's (not necessarily aligned) Park stand.

Road Fan

Road Fan!!!!
Thank you for reminding me! The back wheel IS* OCR! I forgot all about that! Thank god I laced the front hub to the right rim! HOWEVER! I put the rear hub in backwards, I think. Does the flat side of the rim go to the drive side or the non drive side??? I have to take that whole wheel apart!!!!! That's not even funny! Thank god you mentioned that or I would have trued it up that way.

But no, the front wheel is the puzzler, and I had access to a dishing tool and a tensiometer. It really is just weird. I guess there's a spreadsheet available at Park Tools where you type in a bunch of information and it will give you some kind of 3D image of what the problem is. I'll let you know what I find out. I have to wait for my tools to arrive.

Have to admit that I can rebuild a bike from the bare frame upwards. Have all the tools and the Tandem does get stripped and rebuilt every year.

The only part I don't trust myself on is the wheels. Had a couple of attempts at building- and rebuilding and stripping down and having another go- but I rate the biggest improvement I can put on any bike is a decent set of wheels. So I have competent wheelbuilder to build all of mine. I can retrue when they go out but after two retrues-on the third time I have to do it- the wheelbuilder gets the job. And after he has done the business on them-I can feel the difference letting an expert sort them has on the bike.

So good luck on your project- and I'll bring the Ultegras over if I get to the US and let you sort them for me.

Road Fan!!!!
Thank you for reminding me! The back wheel IS* OCR! I forgot all about that! Thank god I laced the front hub to the right rim! HOWEVER! I put the rear hub in backwards, I think. Does the flat side of the rim go to the drive side or the non drive side??? I have to take that whole wheel apart!!!!! That's not even funny! Thank god you mentioned that or I would have trued it up that way.

But no, the front wheel is the puzzler, and I had access to a dishing tool and a tensiometer. It really is just weird. I guess there's a spreadsheet available at Park Tools where you type in a bunch of information and it will give you some kind of 3D image of what the problem is. I'll let you know what I find out. I have to wait for my tools to arrive.

The spoke holes in the rim should be offset toward the NON DRIVE SIDE.

This thread is not providing much in the way of inspiration to people like DG and myself to get into wheelbuilding.

Well, I'm trying not lay blame on the place I took the class. It was my fault for not telling her about the back tire.

But I asked her which way to put the hub specifically, and we looked at both sides of the wheel at the logos. I wish she would have noticed, because, well... because it's pretty important!

But, if not many people use off centered wheels, then it would be easy to miss.

I'm not going to do anything until I get that book everyone recommends and read it. I thought it would be a good idea to take the class first, since sometimes it's hard to read a book when you've never actually seen anything first hand.

This same place sold one of the other students a 36 hole rim for a 32 hole hub, so he only got to make one wheel.

We also had to load our hubs twice, because she had us do it wrong the first time. She had to refer to the directions for a few minutes. I can understand how that can happen, because strange things happen when you normally build wheels on semi automatic and now you have to stop and demonstrate each step. It can get confusing. But even so, I see on sheldon's site that the main spoke is supposed to be heads up, and mine is heads down... so I'm not even sure if the wheel I made is right.

Another student had something wrong with his nipples and was unable to build his wheel. I didn't quite catch what was going on there.

Anyway, I still enjoyed it, but this was very disheartening. I'm just so glad that Road Fan reminded me of my intention to get an off center one for the rear. I actually didn't even order one... I had already forgotten by that time that I was going to. The LBS ordered me one automatically.

So I think I still have a way to go before I get to learn the secret handshake.

Another student had something wrong with his nipples and was unable to build his wheel. I didn't quite catch what was going on there.

Most likely he had 14 gauge spokes and 15 gauge nipples or vice versa.

The spoke holes in the rim should be offset toward the NON DRIVE SIDE.


Yes, exactly, well said.

OK. Enough of the beginner's wheelbuilding exercises. Time for the graduate course. :lol:

OK. Enough of the beginner's wheelbuilding exercises. Time for the graduate course. :lol:

I think that I figured out how to do that and once, when I had a junk hubset laying around, I thought about trying to build a set. Fortunately, I came to my senses first.

Three cross rules! Sometimes boreing is good.

I don't think I'm even strong* enough to build wheels like that.

There is an excellent lesson on wheel building in....................wait for it.........................Zinn's art of mountain (or Road) bike maintainence. You can supliment this with Sheldons sections on wheel building.


Why does that book keep coming up?

I own the road version! I'll make that my first read.

I just didn't want to do much reading the before I made the wheel, because what I read on Sheldon's site didn't really make sense to me until I went through the process. I didn't even know what a spoke nipple really looked like.

OK, got my tensiometer in the mail and got much better readings on that wheel. It's 25 on the Park tensiometer on both sides, with variation of less than one hashmark. I don't know why the tool at the bike coop read differently on one side of the wheel, except it was the kind that you squeeze to get the reading and maybe the difference in strength of left to right hand did it, although you'd think we would have used the right hand for both sides of the wheel. I can't remember now.

No, I do remember turning the wheel in the stand and measuring it with my right hand.

I don't know. The tool was weird. I'm letting it go.

So, my first wheel was a success. I'm ready for the secret handshake.

...I'm ready for the secret handshake.

No you're not. You need some more practice. Fortunately for you, I have just the thing: two 700c 32 hole rims and hubs (flip flop rear...no dishing needed!) I need built for my fixie, and two 26" 36 hole MTB rims/hubs. PM me with your address and then get busy. :)

I'll even reimburse you for the spokes since I haven't bought them yet. Butted stainless, please.

Am I a great guy or what? You're welcome.

OK, got my tensiometer in the mail and got much better readings on that wheel. It's 25 on the Park tensiometer on both sides, with variation of less than one hashmark. I don't know why the tool at the bike coop read differently on one side of the wheel, except it was the kind that you squeeze to get the reading and maybe the difference in strength of left to right hand did it, although you'd think we would have used the right hand for both sides of the wheel. I can't remember now.

No, I do remember turning the wheel in the stand and measuring it with my right hand.

I don't know. The tool was weird. I'm letting it go.

So, my first wheel was a success. I'm ready for the secret handshake.

Congratulations......................now for the secret handshake......................nope, not yet...first there is the matter of a rear wheel, a whole different kettle of fish. Get this one right and then you learn the secret handshake.

Congratulations......................now for the secret handshake......................nope, not yet...first there is the matter of a rear wheel, a whole different kettle of fish. Get this one right and then you learn the secret handshake.

Isn't the real test that she has to build a set of wheels for each of us?

Ok, I've just been to the Park site, and assuming you have 1.8 mm spokes, I'd think you do have excessive tension, at least based on the 105-110 kgf recommendation some use for Mavic rims.

I'm really not a wheel building expert, but can't you just reduce tension by going all around say a turn at a time until the tension is in the ballpark, then true and tune?

what are good tension targets for Velocity Aeroheads?

Road Fan

Yes, I have to remove tension all the way around a bit.

I hope I can get it as true again as I did the first time!

A good tension for these rims is 100 to 110 Kgf as that is the spec for the similar Mavic CXP33. In fact you can use that spec for most rims in this catagory and not go to far off the beaten path. You will have to calculate that in Park Tools Tensionmeter readings depending on what type of spoke you are using.

Incidently, this tool has one quirk that is worth learning. After the spoke is set in the proper position, release your grip on the handle "slowly" as a false reading will be generated if you just let it bang onto the spoke. You might also want to keep the tool oriented in the same direction for all of the spokes so as to generate consistancy in readings.

I keep spread sheets on my wheels and for purposes of consistancy I count spoke #1 as being the first spoke clockwise (when facing the wheel on the same side as the spoke in question) from the stem hole on the left side of the wheel. #2 will be the first spoke counterclockwise on the right side of the wheel etc. This leaves you with 2 columns on the spreadsheet.........column 1 is #1, #3, #5 etc. and the secone column is #2, #4, #6..... Now you can calculate an average for each column and check to see if your spokes are +/- 20%.

If the wheel goes out of true at some point in the future you can reference the old records and probably see where the problem is.

Or you can forget all this cr** and just go do it.

Solveg, you may want to get a 4 sided spoke wrench before you finish the rear wheel as the tensions are going to get a little high on the drive side spokes. Sloppy wrenches round off nipples here.

I'm really not a wheel building expert, but can't you just reduce tension by going all around say a turn at a time until the tension is in the ballpark, then true and tune?

Yup. If you loosen (or tighten) every spoke the exact same amount it won't affect the wheel's trueness. One whole turn, however, is a lot. I'd go maybe 1/4 turn and repeat in 1/4 turn increments if necessary.