"The 33"-Road Bike Racing - Guys - Tell me how to do this...

to go so hard during your FTP test that you puke or almost puke:rolleyes:. I’ve done 2 tests (20min), both giving me an NP of 182 (then FTP=172), but I never felt like I was going to puke and felt like I had a bit more left in the tank. I did get a bit lightheaded and started seeing black/bright spots, but no puking. I’ve subsequently reset my FTP to 185 because I’ve had rides of 3hr or so where my NP was above my FTP and I didn’t feel like they were really very difficult rides.

Anyways, how do you push yourself so hard during this FTP test that you just about or do puke? What do you do to make yourself keep going when your legs/lungs are on fire, but you’ve still got more time left to complete your test? If you feel like you’re going to puke, does this mean you are at or very near your FTP? My next FTP test will probably be around the 3rd week in March.

Edit - It's not about puking anymore...that doesn't mean much I don't think. Other than I ate a greasy meal and then rode:rolleyes:

Paging the Marquis De Pcad!

to go so hard during your FTP test that you puke or almost puke:rolleyes:. I’ve done 2 tests (20min), both giving me an NP of 182 (then FTP=172), but I never felt like I was going to puke and felt like I had a bit more left in the tank. I did get a bit lightheaded and started seeing black/bright spots, but no puking. I’ve subsequently reset my FTP to 185 because I’ve had rides of 3hr or so where my NP was above my FTP and I didn’t feel like they were really very difficult rides.


Why are you using normalized (NP) rather than average power to calculate ftp? Also I suggest you look into Coggan's 7 deadly sins for calculating ftp as well as Normalized Power busters...

wayne

ok, let's just disregard the numbers i have in the first post - this isn't really a question about what my numbers are or aren't.

just tell me how you go about doing a 20min TT, giving it everything you've got till you puke?? what do you do to get through the mental part of "damn this really hurts" and keep on going till you just absolutely can't do any more and when you're done, you are puking/about to puke/need a ride home cause there's no way you can ride the 20mi back to your car:rolleyes:

I do it on the trainer and turn my head to the left so that if I puke, it doesn't get on my drivetrain.

Mentally, though, it's just an issue of focusing and blocking out the pain. Or embracing the pain, if that's your thing. But it's all about concentration.

why the obsession with puking?

go hard at a pace you can sustain for the duration of the effort. self motivation, concentration, and focus are hard, if you cant test effectively independently, go to a coach who does VO2Max testing or similar and do a test there.

I only puke when I am near MHR not with LT efforts. LT is more about pain. Embrace the pain. Love the pain. Know that pain will make you stronger, and if you have pain now, and are still alive, then you can take more.

well, i don't have a trainer and i ain't going to get one. hate those torture devices.

i'm new to all this (PT since november) so i guess it's going to be a matter of learning to just block out the pain and digging a little deeper or to enjoy the pain:rolleyes:.

its very tough for a lot of people to truly go as hard as they can when they are by themselves testing. Im not sure if Ive ever really been able to do it. I suggest just taking the number you are getting from the testing and just using that for a while. If you are seeing your IF consistently above or near 1 even on easier rides bump it up a bit.

After youve gotten used to testing a few times you will be able to go harder too. At least its been for me in my experience.

well, i don't have a trainer and i ain't going to get one. hate those torture devices.


are you training to race?

ok, let's just disregard the numbers i have in the first post - this isn't really a question about what my numbers are or aren't.

just tell me how you go about doing a 20min TT, giving it everything you've got till you puke?? what do you do to get through the mental part of "damn this really hurts" and keep on going till you just absolutely can't do any more and when you're done, you are puking/about to puke/need a ride home cause there's no way you can ride the 20mi back to your car:rolleyes:

Smash your thumb with a hammer then go ride angry.

why the obsession with puking?

go hard at a pace you can sustain for the duration of the effort. self motivation, concentration, and focus are hard, if you cant test effectively independently, go to a coach who does VO2Max testing or similar and do a test there.

meh. i don't really want to puke - that's really the last thing i ever want to do. but i want to be able to go at a hard enough pace that when i'm done, i know with certainty that i have left everything on the pavement.

hmmm, maybe it's time for a new sig...embrace the pain, for it will make you stronger:).

are you training to race?

not really. but, i am training for a few organized rides this year (burnsville metric, assault on marion, TT's at charlotte, etc). i just want to be a better all around cyclist and to be able to climb the mountains of western NC.

Yeah, it really is just about getting used to the pain. Make sure you don't start off above pace (maybe to get off the line, but not once you're rolling). The pain will catch up to you in about 2 minutes. For the 20 minute tests, I find it really important to get a good, solid goal in place. I need a number to go after.

Figure out what sensations keep your legs turning with enough power. Sometimes I find my power dropping only to realize that I've backed off my quads a bit, and am mostly using my glutes. Re-focus and dial the quads back up a touch -- power goes back up, and I can get back to suffering.

On hills, consider upshifting a cog or two and getting out of the saddle for 15 seconds or so. Try not to increase the power output, but let your cadence be a bit lower. This will work a different muscle group and bit, and get your weight off the tender parts for a bit.

The trick is to come up with the right goal wattage. Last few tests have had me missing my goal by 3-5W, which tells me I've got the goal setting about right.

Another thing to try is to hit your goal wattage for a steady minute during warmup -- probably do this twice. Get used to the pedal pressure and fine-tune your perceived exertion gauge.

well, i don't have a trainer and i ain't going to get one. hate those torture devices.

i'm new to all this (PT since november) so i guess it's going to be a matter of learning to just block out the pain and digging a little deeper or to enjoy the pain:rolleyes:.

So let me see if I have this correct... You want pain, but not things that inflict pain.
I happen to be One with that view. I am a tourista. I want to keep breakfast down, stop somewnere nice, and enjoy a leisurely lunch, and then ride home. Makes for a lovely day.

But if you want to race you want torture. That level of torture is just
the beginning.

Time to go to the Spinervals website.

no. i had a trainer with probably 5 spinervals dvds. i absolutely hated getting on that trainer. absolutely farkin' hated it. so bad that i wouldn't get on it. i sold it and bought clothing so i could ride outside. riding outside FTW. i want to inflict my own pain - besides my butt hurt too bad after 30 min or an hour on that thing. my butt doesn't hurt when i ride outside.

you can try streadily increasing your effort over the 20 minute period.

I did get a bit lightheaded and started seeing black/bright spots, but no puking.

I've never gotten nauseous during FTP type efforts. When I start seeing spots, I know I'm in the correct level (for finishing the interval).

You kinda have to train yourself for pain--it is mostly mental. I can take a lot more pain this year than last year. I actually learned that I can climb with a sustained calf cramp. That was fun. Eventually you will be able to put yourself into that place. But it takes time.

I don't think puking is an accurate training tool. I've done very hard races & workouts, and don't ever remember puking sensations involved. Everyone is different, so YPMV (your puking may vary)

To quote one of the best runners of all time:

"In order to race, one must hate both his competition and himself."


Quite simply, I don't think you have the personal self-loathing (copyright P-Cad 2007) necessary to do what you'd like to do. And if you do, you aren't picking at those almost healed psychological wounds enough to make them bleed again.

Just imagine someone kicking your dog, drowning a burlap sack full of kittens (somewhat standard practice in every era pre-20th century), the high school bully stealing your lunch money, etc.

you can try streadily increasing your effort over the 20 minute period.

yes, but i seem to have the problem right now of starting out too hard/fast and then tiring out quicker. just another thing i have to learn how to do.

waterrockets - the goal you have, the number you are looking for, how do you determine that? Would this be the way: Let’s just say I have a goal of an NP of 210 at the end of the 20min test. I would think that my AP would also be within a couple of watts of NP during a steady 20min. So would I try to keep the minimum power that I might see on the PT to 170 or so and the max be whatever it may be? That way, it would average out to be something close to the goal that I may have.

Apus^2 - this is my first year of actually doing any structured training. prior to the PT, i basically rode to just get the miles in for the year and wondered why i wasn't making any progress:rolleyes:. so, this is my first foray into training and the associated pain...i'm sure that by the end of the year i'm going to be a lot better.

Duke of Kent - there ya go! That's what I need. Side note: yesterday on the way home after doing my intervals, I was in a hurry to get home and got stuck behind this pick-up. Old man driving and he had his dog with him. Every few minutes, the dog would reach over & give him a 'kiss' and you could see the old guy just smile - everyone was happy and my anger at getting held up was replaced by good feelings. I think if I could channel the anger I feel when I see someone being mean to an animal, into my 20min training or during my intervals, I may be able to do a bit better.

just tell me how you go about doing a 20min TT, giving it everything you've got till you puke?? what do you do to get through the mental part of "damn this really hurts" and keep on going till you just absolutely can't do any more and when you're done, you are puking/about to puke/need a ride home cause there's no way you can ride the 20mi back to your car:rolleyes:

Time Trials are such a different animal than crits or road races. In a road race (or crit) you have all the riders around you for motivation, and to give you an idea in terms of dosing out your energy. In a TT, absent of other riders (except your minute men!), you really have to practice in order to dose out your energy. You'll get better the more you practice and the more TTs you do.

In terms of motivation, the last TT I did was 6.5 miles of flat followed by a 1.5 mile VERY steep climb. I passed 2 of my minute men on the flats before I hit the climb. About 1/4 of the way up the climb, I hear some huffing and puffing. The last guy I passed was now right up beside me and about to pass! Well, that's where motivation kicked in. I was able to tap into my reserves and I dropped him. I didn't see him again until the TT was over. The point being, had he not come back to me, I would have gone slower up that climb for sure. Find some motivation! :)

Good luck!

... Brad

Practice practice practice.

You need to go all out in training frequently to get a good feel for LT intervals. Most beginning cyclists will go out too hard, then pop when they've blown their anaerobic work capacity - or not go hard enough at all because they aren't familiar with what their body is capable of.

At this point it sounds like you should just ride for several weeks with the PT - not emphasizing social/bs'ing around rides, emphasize pain. Do at least two hard rides per week, then look back at several weeks of data. I imagine you'll have a feel for your FTP after analyzing ride files from hard intervals. Once you're a happy resident of the pain cave you'll have a better handle on what kind of efforts you're actually capable of.

EDIT: For goodness sake - don't use NP from a 20 minute effort to determine your FTP. The only time NP would be viable is if it were a 100% "please kill me now" effort 60 minute race, and even then it'd still probably predict high due to the accelerations.

i am training for a few organized rides this year (...TT's at charlotte, etc).


Doing an actual TT will give you valuable data. Nothing like competition to get the best out of you.

So do your best with the test, correlate that data with your TT data.

And don't worry too much about it. It doesn't have to be all that precise.

Also if you track your data over a number of hard rides, including group rides, you can see on the graphs where your power drops off significany. That's a pretty good estimate of your true FTP.

I think practicing and time will help get rid of the sick feeling. I did 7reps 90sec on:off slightly above LT and after the second one I felt sick but was able to get through it. I know if I had tried doing them before I had more training, I would have felt really nauseous.

EDIT: For goodness sake - don't use NP from a 20 minute effort to determine your FTP. The only time NP would be viable is if it were a 100% "please kill me now" effort 60 minute race, and even then it'd still probably predict high due to the accelerations.

I used NP (and have used) because during my 20min test, both NP & AP were within 2w of each other…guess I'm not learned enough on the terminology/acronyms yet...

Well if you are starting off too hard and dying at the end you arent doing a good job steadily increasing your effort. Since you have 20 minutes you can go "easy" the first few minutes and ramp up a little each passing minute and still end up going your hardest. Its very difficult to start off right at "the hardest you can go for 20 minutes" and maintain that effort when you are still new to this stuff

For a 12-20min CP test the protocol I was given says start at estimated FTP+10%

I used NP (and have used) because during my 20min test, both NP & AP were within 2w of each other…guess I'm not learned enough on the terminology/acronyms yet...

For a flatish 20 minute TT the NP and AP should be close to one another. The reason I say not to use 20 minute NP to determine FTP is that an interval session could totally blow out your 20 minute NP. For example, doing long sprints of 30-90 seconds for 45 minutes to an hour would likely give you a 20 minute NP that would provide a totally unrealistic view of your FTP.

NP is useful for other things...but there are better ways to determine your FTP, especially over short durations.

waterrockets[/I] - the goal you have, the number you are looking for, how do you determine that? Would this be the way: Let’s just say I have a goal of an NP of 210 at the end of the 20min test. I would think that my AP would also be within a couple of watts of NP during a steady 20min. So would I try to keep the minimum power that I might see on the PT to 170 or so and the max be whatever it may be? That way, it would average out to be something close to the goal that I may have.

In my last 20m tests, my AP is only 1-3W below my NP.

To find the number, I started off by doing a test, getting the number, and associating that with my perceived exertion. In my first test, I was really gassed at the end -- to the point that I was worried I would never beat it because I would never be able to suffer like that again.

So, use your current AP from your 20m tests as your baseline for your next test. I track my ability at 5 minutes pretty closely, and when I detect a jump in my 5-minute power, I bump my 20m target by the same %.

I also tend to notice that my SST range becomes easier to hold. The first time I noticed this, I figured I was just getting used to the pain, but then I realized that my fitness had outrun my zones. Now I'm a little quicker to pick up on it.

/hijack (somewhat)

Would I be able to get a general FTP number without a powermeter going by race data? For example, the training race I did this past Sunday lasted right ~45 minutes. I was able to hold onto the pack and stay with it until the last turn. Then I just completely ran out of gas. Given that I have a heart rate monitor and average speed, and could probably get the course profile, would it be possible to come up with a reasonable FTP to use for when I am on my trainer?

Since the trainer of course is calibrated to a reasonable curve so I can tailor my workouts when on it.

/hijack (somewhat)

no. too many variables.

For a flatish 20 minute TT the NP and AP should be close to one another. The reason I say not to use 20 minute NP to determine FTP is that an interval session could totally blow out your 20 minute NP. For example, doing long sprints of 30-90 seconds for 45 minutes to an hour would likely give you a 20 minute NP that would provide a totally unrealistic view of your FTP.

NP is useful for other things...but there are better ways to determine your FTP, especially over short durations.

Yea, I have a fairly flat road I use for my 20min TT out on hwy 222, from hwy 42 to kenly. That's the nice thing about living in the eastern part of the state.

My intervals yesterday were #1: 188/186, #2: 186/185, #3: 189/188 (NP/AP) and 8min in length. So, even if I use the actual NP I got earlier last year (182), I've blown that away with these intervals. I think I just pulled a number outa the little black box and took 5% of that to get my current FTP of 185...

Meh. Looks like the TT in CLT on 4/9 will be a very good test...

Everyone reacts differently to training stress. For some of us the legs just shut down, no major physical trauma (eg puking).

If you are loosing tempo prior to feeling really stressed my guess is leg strength is a limiter. You may really benifit from strength training (weights) and shorter intervals. Just opinion and guess of course.

yea, i'm hitting the gym 2-3x a week and working on the legs. prolly when i do my next test, i will have been going to the gym for 6-8wks and that will hopefully help.

Take your FTP test right after a big, greasy meal. Try a McDonald's breakfast. Hope that helps.

I always find it easier to ride near my limit on a climb. I have a 20min (for me) climb nearby. It's a steady 6to 8% climb. There are few distractions (i.e., traffic, turns to slow down, no traffic lights...etc). However, I have never felt close to puking in a 20min effort. I think 5 x 5min are better at producing the near puking feeling.

I always find it easier to ride near my limit on a climb. I have a 20min (for me) climb nearby. It's a steady 6to 8% climb. There are few distractions (i.e., traffic, turns to slow down, no traffic lights...etc). However, I have never felt close to puking in a 20min effort. I think 5 x 5min are better at producing the near puking feeling.

no, those 3x3min in zone 5 intervals i did last friday bout made me sick! first time ever doing them and i nailed them. thought my mentor was trying to kill me with those things! but, damn, i sure did like doing them:)

Take your FTP test right after a big, greasy meal. Try a McDonald's breakfast. Hope that helps.

hehe. i think i've given up my quest for puking:rolleyes:. doesn't appear to be necessary.

My intervals yesterday were #1: 188/186, #2: 186/185, #3: 189/188 (NP/AP) and 8min in length. So, even if I use the actual NP I got earlier last year (182), I've blown that away with these intervals. I think I just pulled a number outa the little black box and took 5% of that to get my current FTP of 185...

Meh. Looks like the TT in CLT on 4/9 will be a very good test...

You can't really use those numbers because you should be able to blow your FTP away with only 8' intervals. FTP is what you can sustain for 60'. The upcoming TT would be a good test. That way you can really push yourself.

I'm at work, so I can't DL it, but try the Monod's Critical Power Calculator for an estimate and adjust from there after the TT.

yea, i understand that...posted that right before lunch and thought about it over lunch...should be able to blow ftp away in those short intervals.

yea, i'm hitting the gym 2-3x a week and working on the legs. prolly when i do my next test, i will have been going to the gym for 6-8wks and that will hopefully help.

Ok, this is a whole nother thread. When you say you're working on your legs in the gym, I'm assuming you mean weight lifting.

I think there would be a very strong consensus that weight lifting for your legs is going to do nothing for your FTP, and may actually hurt it, if it takes time and energy away from training on the bike.

If you feel like you really need to stregthen your legs, try some on the bike resistence training such as muscle tensions, and stomps.

You can't really use those numbers because you should be able to blow your FTP away with only 8' intervals. FTP is what you can sustain for 60'. The upcoming TT would be a good test. That way you can really push yourself.

I'm at work, so I can't DL it, but try the Monod's Critical Power Calculator for an estimate and adjust from there after the TT.

By the CTS forumla FTP is 92% of the average for 2 8 minute intervals. Obviously there's going to be some variability by individual, but for me 92% correlates almost exactly with lab results.

the gym - yes - here's what i've been doing: squats, single-leg squats, leg extensions/curls, adductors. then core stuff and a bit of upper body. so, i shouldn't be doing all of that?

oh man, merlin*, let's not even go to the stomps...that's a whole 'nother thread in the mechanic forum about my chain coming off the big ring when i try those. i think it's been determined that my fuji has a really flexy frame:(. (i'll be saving up for a new bike to bring home next year...maybe an R3 or a tarmac pro)

I'm at work, so I can't DL it, but try the Monod's Critical Power Calculator for an estimate and adjust from there after the TT.

This (http://norcalic3.googlegroups.com/web/MonodCP.xls?gda=jhr0bjwAAADnvMGIc56dwy-_IF1ldWlAcvxEt1jXhs1tDRNVznYtN2G1qiJ7UbTIup-M2XPURDS8nnuaL-ISTwXQktd6-3po)is the version I use. I use three tests: 5m, 20m, and either a 3m or 10m (depending on what I feel like testing)

By the CTS forumla FTP is 92% of the average for 2 8 minute intervals. Obviously there's going to be some variability by individual, but for me 92% correlates almost exactly with lab results.

Oh, I know that protocol. I was just correcting her in the fact that just because her 8' numbers were higher than her estimated FTP, doesn't mean that here estimated FTP was wrong. She should be able to have an AP for 8' well above FTP.

the gym - yes - here's what i've been doing: squats, single-leg squats, leg extensions/curls, adductors. then core stuff and a bit of upper body. so, i shouldn't be doing all of that?

oh man, merlin*, let's not even go to the stomps...that's a whole 'nother thread in the mechanic forum about my chain coming off the big ring when i try those. i think it's been determined that my fuji has a really flexy frame:(. (i'll be saving up for a new bike to bring home next year...maybe an R3 or a tarmac pro)

Lower your front derailleur so it's 1-2mm from the big ring, and make sure your limit screws aren't allowing the FD to sit too far out. FD adjustments can be a real pain...

Ok, this is a whole nother thread. When you say you're working on your legs in the gym, I'm assuming you mean weight lifting.

I think there would be a very strong consensus that weight lifting for your legs is going to do nothing for your FTP, and may actually hurt it, if it takes time and energy away from training on the bike.

If you feel like you really need to stregthen your legs, try some on the bike resistence training such as muscle tensions, and stomps.

I agree, unless you're a sprint track rider. Spend the time on the bike instead.

Anyways, how do you push yourself so hard during this FTP test that you just about or do puke? What do you do to make yourself keep going when your legs/lungs are on fire, but you’ve still got more time left to complete your test? If you feel like you’re going to puke, does this mean you are at or very near your FTP? My next FTP test will probably be around the 3rd week in March.
Easy: Eat the wrong combination of foods before the effort. Seriously, you don't puke from the effort alone. It's a combination of blood sugar, what's in your stomach, etc. Don't use puking as the only inidicator of how hard you went. Otherwise, there would be a waste basket right after the finish line of every race and time trial.