I am interested in some opinions. We are getting ready to pull the plug and order a new tandem. We have not had one for a number of years having sold a Gary Fisher a number of years ago. We want a coupled tandem as we travel extensively and like to take our bikes. We currently travel with Bike Friday singles and feel they just don't measure up to what we want. Our normal singles are carbon with full dura ace and nice wheels. We like the carbon ride and want to duplicate that in the tandem. Here are some of our info combined weight about 330 captain(in name only) 5'8" stoker(boss) 5'6" use your imagination as to who weighs what. Consider ourselves avid riders although we live in Alaska and only ride abut 7 months a year except when traveling. the only touring we would do involves a credit card in the jersey pocket, although a small seat bag or rear rack bag for jackets etc may be used occasionally. We seem to be fairly well in sync as far as cadence as my wife recently started pushing bigger gears and spinning a little less so we are now closer. Our last big ride was cycle Oregon and we seldom saw each other as the day progressed as she dropped me on most of the climbs, therefore a tandem to keep us together. It seems the only carbon options are the Calfee tetra and Da Vinci. We like the idea of the ICS on the Da vinci just for the ability to adjust, standup ,clip in etc independently but realize it comes with a weight penalty. I have talked to both companies and am even more confused. They both seem to have rather different opinions on setups wheels etc. Calfee likes the alpha Q fork and Davinci the wound up. I want a rear disc as we ride mostly in the west with long technical descents. Calfee specs a front caliper and Davinci a cantilever. Topolino vs Rolfs although Calfee specced the topos it wouldn't work as they don't seem to make a disc wheel yet so they spec'd a incompatible set up. My impression is the sales person at Calfee really didn't know what he was talking about in regards to tandems. I would appreciate any comments on the shifting of the Da vinci as it seems on paper to have a very wide range with nice close ratios. Calfee specs Dura ace and Da vinci specs Campy. there also appears to be a significant price difference as the Davinci is priced as though you buy one of their lesser models and just buy the carbon frame and don't receive any credit for the original frame because their carbon frame upgrade is the same price Calfee charges for tetra frame. Any help and comments would be greatly appreciated.
masiman
02-20-08, 11:04 AM
The DaVinci is nice/excellent when you have large differences in rider levels. I think they are best suited for parents w/kids and couples with one serious rider and one not serious rider. Since you both are riders, even with your power differences, I would say you would get more for your money on a traditional tandem. DaVinci is expensive relative to other tandems with comparable components. You do get the ICS and the quad crank but for your money at your level you might get more use out of couplers o upgraded components for that kind of money. You could have the Calfee built with Campy if you so choose. I imagine the Calfee would be roughly same price with Chorus vice DA. Calfee has an excellent reputation. I am sure others can point you to a sales rep if you were not satisfied with the one you spoke to. It would be funny if you had spoken to the owner and came away with that impression :). There are a few Calfee owners on here that seem to be very happy with their purchasing choice.
We have a DaVinci and it is perfect for us. I would not trade it for any other tandem except for maybe a triplet or quad. We fit both the kid and disparate couple categories that the DaVinci excels at satisfying. That said, in a few years, with any luck, I want to move to a traditional tandem.
merlinextraligh
02-20-08, 01:31 PM
The DaVinci is nice when you have large differences in rider levels. I think they are best suited for parents w/kids and couples with one serious rider and one not serious rider. Since you both are riders, even with your power differences, I would say you would get more for your money on a traditional tandem. DaVinci is exspensive relative to other tandems with comparable components. You do get the ICS and the quad crank. You could have the Calfee built with Campy if you so choose. I imagine it would be roughly same price with Chorus. Calfee has an excellent reputation. I am sure others can point you to a sales rep if you were not satisfied with the one you spoke to. It would be funny if you had spoken to the owner and came away with that impression :). There are a few Calfee owners on here that seem to be very happy with their purchasing choice.
We have a DaVinci and it is perfect for us. I would not trade it for any other tandem except for maybe a triplet or quad. We fit both the kid and couple categories that the DaVinci excels at satisfying. That said, in a few years, with any luck, I want to move to a traditional tandem.
I think this post makes a lot of sense.
To me a CF Da Vinci doesn't seem to fit with two serious riders. It would seem that the Da Vinci drive would tend to undermine the performance you're trying to get by going CF.
Also are you sure you want to go CF?
A CF tandem may or may not duplicate the ride of your CF single bikes. If what you like about your CF bikes is their stiffness, the Calfee might not duplicate that. Take a look at Tandem Geek's post in the Macchiato thread.
TandemGeek
02-20-08, 03:10 PM
I have talked to both companies and am even more confused. They both seem to have rather different opinions on setups wheels etc. Calfee likes the alpha Q fork and Davinci the wound up... Calfee specs a front caliper and Davinci a cantilever. Topolino vs Rolfs although Calfee specced the topos it wouldn't work as they don't seem to make a disc wheel yet so they spec'd a incompatible set up. My impression is the sales person at Calfee really didn't know what he was talking about in regards to tandems.
Both companies have completely different philosophies when it comes to tandems, remembering that Calfee started out building single bikes that were raced in the Tour de France and only started to build tandems because existing clients wanted a tandem that exhibited the same qualities as their Calfee single bikes. So, at it's core -- and aside from some of its niche products like the recumbents and bamboo bikes -- Calfee has traditionally focused on the performance end of the spectrum where every gram counts. They also have formed a strong alliance with Topolino, as their philosophies, products, and market segments are complimentary. They also have a strong alliance with Shimano which allows them to offer very attractive pricing on fully built-up, Shimano-equipped bikes and tandems.
daVinci, on the other hand, is a bit more pragmatic. They have always been a tandem-speciality builder who produced only 26" wheeled road and off-road tandems. They only recently added single bikes and 700c tandems to their line up, the latter running counter to their original philosophy on wheelsize. They've also started to offer an entry-level model with a frame produced by a third-party to meet customer demand for a lower-cost point model... again, something that runs counter to their original philosophy but that serves to meet the market's expectation. So, what you have is a builder who has some strong opinions about what works best, but who responds to market trends, and who isn't necessarily focused on road racing and performance. Therefore, they design their tandems to be robust and will add grams where it makes sense. For example, while the Wound-Up fork is a bit heavier than the Alpha Q X2, the Wound-Up is stiffer, more easily accommodates larger diameter tires, and is offered in both 700c & 26" caliper and cantilever versions, consistent with their product line offerings. Rolf's tandem wheels are the default, high-performance 145mm tandem wheelset... pretty much what you'll find on Co-Motion's higher-end racing tandems as well as a lot of Calfees and other 145mm rear spaced performance tandems where racing wheels were spec'd. It's worth noting that Rolf uses a proprietary hub made by White Industries and therein lies another daVinci connection... White is also one of daVinci's suppliers. Of course, neither of these wheelsets make much sense for the type of riding you have described since field repairs are difficult and parts are not redily available. I would think you would instead be looking for a good set of conventionally built wheels for daily use and touring, and would only look to something like the Rolf's (or Topolino's) for special events. As for cantilever vs. caliper, caliper brakes tend to limit your tire size to 25mm or perhaps 28mm, with little to no improvement in brake power. Cantilever brakes therefore are a better choice for a non-racing tandem where a larger tire or mud guards might be desireable. As for components, daVinci has always spec'd Campy because the left-hand STI lever does not support daVinci's ICS shifting system with its four chain rings. If you're going to spec. Campy levers, the rest of the Campy group is a no brainer since it can be used with either standard Campy cassette spacing OR Shimano's. Again, builders will tend to default to their preferences and if there wasn't a need to have variable index front derailleur shifter at daVinci then Campy may or may not have become their default.
I want a rear disc as we ride mostly in the west with long technical descents. Although Calfee specced the topos it wouldn't work as they don't seem to make a disc wheel yet so they spec'd a incompatible set up. My impression is the sales person at Calfee really didn't know what he was talking about in regards to tandems.
Again, I'm not sure who you may have been talking to at Calfee. Tandems are a very small part of their business and the better tandem dealers who represent Calfee can provide added-value to the purchase of a Calfee tandem if you need guidance in sorting out your requirements and specifications. If a disc is a hard and fast requirement then, as you have discovered, Topolino's are a non-player. If the sales rep at Calfee was only talking in generalities about what the options were and what they -- Calfee -- would recommend to most clients, then a Calfee fitted with Topolino's, an Alpha Q X2 carbon fork, and a DuraAce grouppo is most likely what they'd pitch: that's the lightest configuration they offer... especially if you opt for the Dragonfly instead of the Tetra tandem frame.
Again, for the types of touring and riding that you describe I'd be more inclined to steer you towards a conventional set of 36h wheels with your rear disc and whatever components trip your trigger. Unfortunately, all of those things would add weight to a Calfee tandem and, well, at Calfee adding weight is not what they will usually suggest UNLESS it's needed to meet some hard and fast requirements. Remember, this is the same company that built a one-off 40lb all-carbon tandem trike for a client and a one-off 26" hardtail MTB tandem for another client... which clearly demonstrates that Calfee will accommodate a buyer's needs and desires once they understand what they are.
there also appears to be a significant price difference as the Davinci is priced as though you buy one of their lesser models and just buy the carbon frame and don't receive any credit for the original frame because their carbon frame upgrade is the same price Calfee charges for tetra frame.
It certainly does appear to be a very expensive upgrade... but, then again, it's a custom Calfee frame not a standard model so you'd need to price the Calfee accordingly for the cost of integrating the additional bottom bracket and mast for daVinci's ICS. In other words, using the $3,999 base price for a Calfee Tetra isn't the correct starting point as it understates the actual cost of modifying a Calfee Tetra into the daVinci configuration.
zonatandem
02-20-08, 04:35 PM
Have riden daVinci and have ridden Calfee. Both are excellent tandems. Both builders will build custom.
If you like the c/f ride on singles, you'll like on tandem too. Easy to get spoiled.
You claim to be fairly well in sync as far as ability/cadence is soncerned so why do you want/need ICS? Is ICS more important than the carbon ride factor?
Both brands can be built with S&S . . . you tell 'em what wheels/brakes you want and go from there.
Custom sounds like the way to go . . . in the long run it's cheaper than upgrading.
Been riding a Zona c/f tandem for over 17,000 miles . . . do we like it"
Naaaah! We love it!
djedgar
02-21-08, 09:46 AM
... We like the carbon ride and want to duplicate that in the tandem. ... It seems the only carbon options are the Calfee tetra and Da Vinci. ...
Have you considered the Santana Beyond with couplers? Comes with rear disc brake and seems to meet all your needs. We love ours.
TandemGeek
02-21-08, 11:30 AM
... We like the carbon ride and want to duplicate that in the tandem. ... It seems the only carbon options are the Calfee tetra and Da Vinci. ...
Have you considered the Santana Beyond with couplers? Comes with rear disc brake and seems to meet all your needs. We love ours.
I suspect the OP was framing the question with respect to all-carbon framesets, and may or may not have intended to preclude the hybrid titanium / isogrid Beyond.
There are actually a few other builders who will construct an all-carbon tandem frame:
Rue Sports: http://www.ruesports.com/
CAS ZXT: http://www.cas-bikes.com/page9.html
LUST: http://www.lustracing.com/tandem.htm
However, I'm pretty sure that Calfee has built more of them (240+ by now) than all others combined.
robmitchell
02-22-08, 02:42 PM
Hi,
second attempt at this post, my first post did not appear, I must have clicked wrong...
We were on Cycle Oregon on our Calfee tandem.
Another couple was on a similar color Davinci carbon tandem and I asked the stoker a few questions.
She indicated it was a joint venture between Calfee and Davinci? Are they working together?
She also indicated the sales person told them they needed the 26 inch wheels, although they did not appear to heavy to me. I was confused by this statement.
Question-
Does the independent pedaling mean both people can spin different cadence at the same time or just that the stoker can coast when needed.
She led me to believe it was for coasting only? I thought different prior to talking with her.
Rob
TandemGeek
02-22-08, 02:58 PM
She indicated it was a joint venture between Calfee and Davinci? Are they working together?
Yes, it's a collaboration whereby Calfee produces the frames for daVinci who applies the daVinci brand to the final product. I believe Greg Lemond owns the prototype. In fact, Lemond has had three Calfee-made tandems: one of the first ones (uncoupled), and then a coupled model, followed by the current coupled model with daVinci's ICS. Others will correct me if I've gotten the history buggered up, but it's pretty close.
She also indicated the sales person told them they needed the 26 inch wheels, although they did not appear to heavy to me. I was confused by this statement.
Hard to know what the scoop was here. I suspect it was a recommendation that the folks at daVinci and Calfee came up with as they looked at that particular frame's design and the team's size and intended use. To the best of my knowledge, the Calfee-made daVinci Joint Venture is available as either a 26" model or a 700c model. The folks at daVinci only began offering 700c models back in 2005 because, well, that's what consumers kept asking for. daVinci remains a proponent of 26" wheels for tandems and there ARE a lot of good reasons for that. Unfortunately, everyone tends to want to ride what the road racers ride and 700c has become the defacto wheel size for road tandems. As noted in some other discussions, the pros and cons of 26 vs. 700c are more or less academic: the fastest bikes and tandems are the ones ridden by the strongest and most skilled riders. Different wheel size, aero rims, different top end gearing, etc... are all things that can be addressed to shave seconds off the clock, perhaps a minute or two off of a century ride for the average cyclist. The only real down side to 26" is, because it is not as prevalent as 700c, the fork, tire and wheel options are somewhat limited. However, the products that are available -- Wound Up carbon forks, Velocity Deep-V rims, etc.. -- are excellent. It's somewhat analogous to owning an Apple computer: there's not a lot of software out there, but what is available is top shelf.
Does the independent pedaling mean both people can spin different cadence at the same time or just that the stoker can coast when needed.
The daVinci ICS uses a jack shaft and what are essentially two BMX hubs to connect the captain and stoker's cranks to the main drive spindle. This allows the captain or the stoker to coast, independent of one another. It also means that if one rider is significantly stronger than the other that the stronger cyclist will not be pushing the other rider's feet around... instead, the weaker rider essentially soft pedals. There are some teams we know who ride daVincis and who find that they tend to ride in-sync on the flats and go out of phase on climbs. It's really a neat system that needs to be played around with to appreciate. It's not necessarily something that will click with every team, but there are other teams that probably wouldn't be riding as often or as well together if it wasn't for daVinci's ICS.
colotandem
02-22-08, 10:01 PM
As an owner of both a DaVinci (Joint Venture - coupled) and a Calfee (Dragonfly), I must say they are both great! We don't have a tremendous amount of miles on the Calfee yet, but so far we love it. The gearing options on the DaVinci are provide an incredible range - especially if you live in mountainous regions or ever decide to do loaded touring. The tire selections on 26" wheels are a bit limited, but this is not a big deal.
Both our Davinci and Calfee are spec'd with with a rear disc brake (I would not feel comfortable riding the Colorado mountains without the disc brake). Both are campy equipped. The DaVinci coupled and the Calfee Dragonfly not. DaVinci V22 wheels built on White Industry hubs have been flawless. Rolf's so far so good...
Regarding the ICS, it does give you the ability to have either rider coast while the other continues to pedal. As for cadence, if one rider is riding at a slower cadence, they are not contributing (think of when you spin out of your big gear going down a hill, your legs are turning, but there is no resistance). Having a 3rd bottom bracket adds a small amount of weight, but who's counting? Todd and Brian at DaVinci are fantastic to work with and they build a great bike!
If you choose either one of these two tandems, you will not be short on people admiring and asking about your bike. Good luck with your new tandem purchase.
zonatandem
02-22-08, 10:03 PM
TGs explanation of how the Calfee/daVinci (Calvinci?) came about is correct. Craif Calfee has had a long association with Greg Lemond that goes back to his TdF days.
Beginner teams seem to be the most likely candidates of ICS system, however many experienced duos swear it.
Rode one of the early daVinci prototypes about a dozen years ago and was impressed by quality of the build and the super-smooth front shifting over the 4 front cogs (chainrings) and huge gear selection. It was then only available in 26" wheels, and typical Todd Schusterman, he was not happy with what was out on the market, so he designed his own rims. The daVinci folks are quite innovative and the 'Calvinci' seems like a natural progression and cooperative effort.
Being long time tandem riders we were less impressed with ICS but can easily understand where it would suit many tandem duos.
The 'Calvinci' is a combination of good ideas that may suit folks like akexpress.
Just our take . . .
Pedal on TWOgether!
Rudy and Kay/zonatandm
zonatandem
02-23-08, 07:21 PM
Todd Shusterman (yup, without the 'c'!) actually built an off-road tandem with an alu skidplate under the boomtube . . . but hey, PVC is a quick solution and quickly removable if you'll not be doing wild offroad gigs.
As for our last name Mark . . . never gets confused with Smith or Jones!
Pedal on TWOgether!
Rudy and Kay/zonatandem
joe@vwvortex
02-26-08, 07:33 AM
Hi,
second attempt at this post, my first post did not appear, I must have clicked wrong...
We were on Cycle Oregon on our Calfee tandem.
Another couple was on a similar color Davinci carbon tandem and I asked the stoker a few questions.
She indicated it was a joint venture between Calfee and Davinci? Are they working together?
She also indicated the sales person told them they needed the 26 inch wheels, although they did not appear to heavy to me. I was confused by this statement.
Question-
Does the independent pedaling mean both people can spin different cadence at the same time or just that the stoker can coast when needed.
She led me to believe it was for coasting only? I thought different prior to talking with her.
Rob
That's our friends bike. It's a beautiful tandem. They chose 26" wheels because of all the gearing that the DaVinci system provides - plenty of high and low gears. With their combined weight - the smaller wheels are supposedly a bit stronger. Due to their size and weight - it also has some extra large tubing in it as well.
akexpress
03-07-08, 05:51 PM
thanks for all the input on the forum and through PMs We have placed our order for a conventional Calfee ti coupled Tetra with a rear disc and Dura Ace components. the Da vinci looked great also but decided the simplicity and slightly lighter weight of the conventional won out. Now for the long wait.