Unsafe Bus Drivers

[SpaceNerd]

I've pretty much come to the end of my rope with bus drivers who have no concern for the safety of people riding in the bike lane or even on the road. Is this a big problem in other cities?

I live in Phoenix, AZ and most unfortunatly I'm also located right on a pick up/drop of hub for both the valley metro and the free shuttle system. My problem usually isn't with the valley metro since they seem to be aware of their rearview mirrors in most situations. The free shuttles somehow manage to come close to injuring me on a weekly basis. While riding in the bike lane today, following all road rules, I was approaching the bus stop area where the free shuttles park. As i began to approach one bus pulled out and drove off and the bus behind it started to pull up and positioned itself completly blocking the bike lane and half of the road. At this point I had no where to go. I couldn't veer into the road and go around her because I didn't know if she was going to pull out and force me into traffic not to mention the fact that there was traffic behind me. I couldn't pull to the right into the bus lane because I didn't know if she was going to pull up there either. My only choice was to stop behind this bus and wait for the driver to decide what she was going to do and that is what I did. I pulled up behind her, granted a little closer than I would have liked because i was moving pretty quickly when the bus pulled out in front of me in the first place, and stop. So I'm stopped trying to determine what this bus is doing when a spotter for the driver to the right of me tells her it's okay to back up... Whoa, wait a second... No backup lights and the spotter who can clearly see me is making this judgement? Finally, as I'm trying to decide where to go the spotter yells "Hold on!". Then, in a glorious moment of judgement, decides to yell at me for being in the BIKE LANE. I'm a really calm person but even this one ticked me off because had the driver of the bus looked in her rearview mirror (and these busses have glass doors in back and perfectly functioning mirrors since I could see her in one) once she would probably have noticed me on my white and neon blue bike wearing a bright blue helmet. Traffic behind me stopped so that I could pull around the bus and I just stayed in the road until my turn.

My first beef with this situation is that a spotter shouldn't be needed for a bus that's hardly longer than a pickup and is fully equipped with a multitude of rearview mirrors. My second beef is that these busses are eventually going to kill someone. All the time they wait for me to pull up right next to them before they decide to pull out (and i'm no speed demon either). I ride, very, defensivly and always listen for the engine revving up or any sign of lights changing, anything that might indicate that a bus is going to move before i get to it. It bothers me a lot that they consitently do this to not only me but plenty of other bicyclists, some who've been so close to the bus when it starts to pull out that they've actually reached over and pounded on the windows.

I guess that's the end of my little rant but my question to you Bike Forum Members is: Are the busses this careless in your cities?

[noisebeam]

As you noted I too have zero issue with the metro bus drivers. Always very courteous.

The local orbit buses have never caused me issue. They mostly travel the 25mph back roads and go the speed limit always. Sure they sometimes pull right into pick up passengers but that is expected (especially at marked bus stops) and never caused any surprise. I always pass on left and prepare to do so well in advance (just seeing a bus ahead at stop as you did would have had me merge into vehicular lane.

Al

[SpaceNerd]

It's actually the Orbit's I'm refferring to. They consistently pull out in front of people on this stretch. Granted I'm sure that they probably get so used to doing it that it becomes routine but the Metro busses that have no back windows don't seem to have any trouble checking the lane for traffic before pulling out which just doesn't make sense to me. It's not even just bicycles they pull out in front of cars too. It's just very frustrating when you're trying to follow all of the rules of the road and ride really carefully and you're still getting thrown into dangerous situations by other vehicles.

[noisebeam]

I've never had an issue on many of the roads Earth and Jupiter service.

Perhaps simply send a note to them that the drivers are pulling back into traffic flow without signaling or yielding to traffic with the ROW. Per your last comment it does not sound like a cyclist specific issue.

http://www.tempe.gov/tim/Bus/NeighborhoodCirculatorExpansion.htm

Al

[SpaceNerd]

Thanks for the link noisebeam! I wasn't really sure where I would go for that but I'll probably fill out that survey and mention the typical carelessness on college.

[-=£em in Pa=-]

Timely thread.
2 weeks a ago a transit bus right hooks me for a stop in the bike lane.
Very close. The beeps to add insult to injury.
Bizarre bus story #2 : Its 6:20 am and a school bus I see regularly and
has 4 stops along the road I ride. I am lit up like a tree, going about 25mph
3' OUTSIDE the bike lane in the car(?) lane. I see its yellows flashing in my
mirror and the kids are lining up for it about 40 yards up the road. It goes
1/2 way into the oncoming lane, right hooks me and starts driving me
dangerously close to the kids queued up for it. They see whats going on
and step back. I look at the driver and ask "what are you doing ?" ...
She beeps and starts yelling stuff back I cant understand. At the red lite
I catch up to the bus and look at her but she wont make eye contact with me.
Very strange.

[SpaceNerd]

That's the thing that bothers me most... I think if they didn't say anything and didn't honk or yell I would be much less bothered by it. It's just very insulting to me when I'm following all of the laws and then I get yelled at. The school bus story is ridiculus... Glad everything came out okay!

[noisebeam]

The drivers are nice folks. Say 'hi' to them and in your first introduction don't even bring up concerns you have.

http://www.azcentral.com/community/tempe/articles/0207tr-jupiter0208.html

""I find if you just are nice and you're interested in what people have to say it makes everything go a lot better," [Orbit driver] Pendleton said. "Almost everybody is very friendly.""

Al

[SpaceNerd]

I never said that they weren't nice. I simply stated that they need to watch the road that they're pulling onto before they do it.

[noisebeam]

I never said that they weren't nice. I simply stated that they need to watch the road that they're pulling onto before they do it.

My point was that if communication is currently not meeting your expectations (they honk and yell for no good reason), to take the initiative to open new and more direct channels of communication. I only said they are nice as an excuse to say hi to them in a positive way.

Al

[Helmet Head]

Yesterday I was riding just outside of the door zone and not quite as alert as one would be ideally when I noticed a city bus approaching from behind (I think I heard it before I saw it in my mirror). He had slowed down quite a bit and was following me for a few seconds when he sped up a little and started to pass me, quite a bit closer than I would like. When about half the bus had passed me a homeless looking guy inside yelled at me through an open window, "get out of the f-in road!"

The whole thing was my fault. Despite being outside of the door zone, I was not far enough left, and so I was still looking like I was trying to share the lane. So the bus driver probably did not notice me right away, and by the time he did, he couldn't change lanes to pass (adjacent lane had traffic) and had to slow way down, losing all his momentum (it's a slight uphill grade too), but eventually started passing me, using all of the lane that I apparently was choosing to share, and erring on the side of taking too much, thus close-passing me. Totally typical and predictable.

This is my regular commute on a 6 lane arterial and I know better. The outside lane is of the awkward width - it looks wide enough to share, but when you take the door zone into account, it's not, especially not with a bus, so a cyclist should be in a centerish lane-controlling position despite the 45 mph speed limit and 50-55+ mph typical traffic.

It's easy to blame the bus driver, but I find that if I manage the situation appropriately, the bus drivers do too. Who am I to judge a bus driver for trying to share a lane with me when I'm in a position that invites him to do that?

[genec]

Yesterday I was riding just outside of the door zone and not quite as alert as one would be ideally when I noticed a city bus approaching from behind (I think I heard it before I saw it in my mirror). He had slowed down quite a bit and was following me for a few seconds when he sped up a little and started to pass me, quite a bit closer than I would like. When about half the bus had passed me a homeless looking guy inside yelled at me through an open window, "get out of the f-in road!"

The whole thing was my fault. Despite being outside of the door zone, I was not far enough left, and so I was still looking like I was trying to share the lane. So the bus driver probably did not notice me right away, and by the time he did, he couldn't change lanes to pass (adjacent lane had traffic) and had to slow way down, losing all his momentum (it's a slight uphill grade too), but eventually started passing me, using all of the lane that I apparently was choosing to share, and erring on the side of taking too much, thus close-passing me. Totally typical and predictable.

This is my regular commute on a 6 lane arterial and I know better. The outside lane is of the awkward width - it looks wide enough to share, but when you take the door zone into account, it's not, especially not with a bus, so a cyclist should be in a centerish lane-controlling position despite the 45 mph speed limit and 50-55+ mph typical traffic.

It's easy to blame the bus driver, but I find that if I manage the situation appropriately, the bus drivers do too. Who am I to judge a bus driver for trying to share a lane with me when I'm in a position that invites him to do that?

If nothing else this incident does show that cyclists have to maintain a higher level of alertness over that of motorists due simply to the lack of motorists acknowledging our rights to the road. That you have to continually stare at the mirror, and work to define your place on the road is evidence of on ongoing issue with the general motoring public.

Why is it that you cannot simply jump on your bike and ride it with the same impunity that some co-ed drives her car to class?

[SpaceNerd]

If nothing else this incident does show that cyclists have to maintain a higher level of alertness over that of motorists due simply to the lack of motorists acknowledging our rights to the road. That you have to continually stare at the mirror, and work to define your place on the road is evidence of on ongoing issue with the general motoring public.

Why is it that you cannot simply jump on your bike and ride it with the same impunity that some co-ed drives her car to class?

That is exactly my point. I don't mind being hypervigilant when I ride because if nothing else it makes me a better rider. However, when I am doing my absolute best to follow the rules and somebody else (who is an employee of the city no less) regularly endangers my life its an indicator of a problem. People seem to be interpreting this as an attack on bus drivers. This is in no way how i mean it to be taken. Like I said, the valley metro drivers seem to be very competent and rarely do they ever pull out in front of me or cause me potential danger. The drivers in question are the drivers of the Orbit busses (though not all of them). Why are they so much more careless? Are they trained to a lesser extent or do they just assume that because they have smaller busses they are safer? I just don't understand.

[-=£em in Pa=-]

The scales of irony continue to tip......
We need to be triple espresso vigilant while
motorists can multi-task with phones, iPod stuff,
food etc......Carmakers accommodate and tacitly endorse
doing stuff other than paying attention while using thier
products. We suffer accordingly. I have often wondered
if making cars not an extention of the entertainment center
syndrome and with no amenities if people would want to spend so
much time in them ?
Make them Govt. issue, like a Skoda or Trabant :p

[Dahon.Steve]

As i began to approach one bus pulled out and drove off and the bus behind it started to pull up and positioned itself completly blocking the bike lane and half of the road. At this point I had no where to go.

Once the bus comes to a stop, depending on the number of passengers, you have 4 - 6 seconds to make a pass or you'll risk getting hit as it pulls out! Making the pass requires picking up speed and going wide (so the driver can see you) and a Take A Look mirror comes in real handy being able to see the traffic behind.

If you find yourself playing leap frog with the bus after every few blocks, it might be best to stop, take a break and let the bus go. Better yet, find another route.

[SpaceNerd]

It wasn't like a 4-6 second option situation. The bus pulled out blocking me from safely passing him without being too close to the traffic in the oncoming lane. This is a one lane each way road that is a pick up drop off space. The leap frog situation ordinarily wouldn't be a problem as if there is a bike lane I always chose to ride in it. Not that I wish to argue I'm just trying to make it clear that when dangerous drivers do things like this they put you in situations that you have no safe way out of. I guess the actual problem in this situation is that other people aren't having this problem because there don't seem to be a lot of people who are riding on roads that the busses park on for thier rest breaks and then pick up/drop off times. It's really something that's pretty much unavoidable seeing as its the nature of traffic these days. I just think that its getting sad that the small strip of road that I covet so much as a 'safer' zone gets more and more dangerous every day.

[AndrewP]

The thread title is about unsafe buses rather than unsafe drivers. Montreal buses have very large rear view mirrors and recently a pedestrian in the sidewalk was killed by one as the bus approached the stop. It would be much safer of they were spring mounted. Your problem may be poor street design rather than bad drivers, who have a difficult job crossing lanes to get in and out of the traffic flow. I dont have any trouble with the Montreal bus drivers. If one is coming up behind me and there is a stop ahead, I move right out to the outside of the lane so he can come through on my inside.

[SpaceNerd]

Let me explain how the road works since this is a sticking point. There are bus pullouts located on either side of the road so the layout is the same going either direction. In order the Road goes Bus pullout>bike lane>Traffic lane>Oncoming traffic lane>bike lane>bus pullout. Maybe that better explains how i was stuck. I guess the thread is a moot point now anyway. The moral of the story is that bus vs bicyclist will always result in the bus winning. I was mostly curious about the problems that other people have with buses in their cities. It seems that most cities mentioned so far have drivers who are careful about where they're pulling out.

[atbman]

Yesterday I was riding just outside of the door zone and not quite as alert as one would be ideally when I noticed a city bus approaching from behind (I think I heard it before I saw it in my mirror). He had slowed down quite a bit and was following me for a few seconds when he sped up a little and started to pass me, quite a bit closer than I would like.
The whole thing was my fault. Despite being outside of the door zone, I was not far enough left, and so I was still looking like I was trying to share the lane. So the bus driver probably did not notice me right away, and by the time he did, he couldn't change lanes to pass (adjacent lane had traffic) and had to slow way down, losing all his momentum (it's a slight uphill grade too), but eventually started passing me, using all of the lane that I apparently was choosing to share, and erring on the side of taking too much, thus close-passing me. Totally typical and predictable.

It's easy to blame the bus driver, but I find that if I manage the situation appropriately, the bus drivers do too. Who am I to judge a bus driver for trying to share a lane with me when I'm in a position that invites him to do that?

HH I'm all in favour of riding assertively and taking other road users possible inadequacies into account, but you weren't in the wrong, the driver was. He had clearly either seen you too late (wearing your brightly coloured cloak of invisibility again?), in which case he wasn't looking far enough ahead (in which case he might well have not seen you in your preferred lane-taking position and driven straight into you), or had seen you and not thought far enough ahead.

As for the lane sharing argument, all drivers should give riders (vulnerable road users) at least 3' of room, so he shouldn't have overtaken until it was safe for hime to move partly into the oncoming lane to overtake you.

I leave it up to you to decide if you made a less than advisable positional decision, but it's easy to blame the bus driver because he was to blame. He is, after all, a professional in charge of a bus full of passengers who rely on his skills and judgement.

[-=£em in Pa=-]

HH has to martyr himself occasionally in his quest to prove the cyclist is
always 100% in the wrong when citing undesirable situations that
arise.

[Helmet Head]

If nothing else this incident does show that cyclists have to maintain a higher level of alertness over that of motorists due simply to the lack of motorists acknowledging our rights to the road. That you have to continually stare at the mirror, and work to define your place on the road is evidence of on ongoing issue with the general motoring public.

Why is it that you cannot simply jump on your bike and ride it with the same impunity that some co-ed drives her car to class?
Well, I was on La Jolla Village Drive, which, as you know, has 45 mph speed limit but 3 lanes (each way) of 50-55+ mph traffic. So yeah, there, bicycling does probably require a higher level of alertness than car driving. But, then, motorcycling and bus driving also demand more than normal car driving.

[Helmet Head]

HH I'm all in favour of riding assertively and taking other road users possible inadequacies into account, but you weren't in the wrong, the driver was. He had clearly either seen you too late (wearing your brightly coloured cloak of invisibility again?), in which case he wasn't looking far enough ahead (in which case he might well have not seen you in your preferred lane-taking position and driven straight into you), or had seen you and not thought far enough ahead.

As for the lane sharing argument, all drivers should give riders (vulnerable road users) at least 3' of room, so he shouldn't have overtaken until it was safe for hime to move partly into the oncoming lane to overtake you.

I leave it up to you to decide if you made a less than advisable positional decision, but it's easy to blame the bus driver because he was to blame. He is, after all, a professional in charge of a bus full of passengers who rely on his skills and judgement.
Legally, yeah, he was in the wrong.
But practically speaking, what he did was very normal and predictable. In particular, when a cyclist is off to the side up ahead it's normal to assume you can squeeze in next to him - that's the basis for "cyclists must keep as far right as practicable" laws, and the underlying assumptions of that basis are understandably ingrained in the thinking of drivers. It is incumbent on the cyclist to be aware of this, and ride accordingly. In particular, if the lane is not wide enough to be safely shared, don't ride off to the side as if it is. The cyclist is, or should be, a much better judge of whether a given lane is safely shareable or not than is a typical motorist, even a "professional" bus driver, because drivers typically suck at that.

[atbman]

HH has to martyr himself occasionally in his quest to prove the cyclist is
always 100% in the wrong when citing undesirable situations that
arise.

It seems to me that HH looks at what cyclists could have done, in a particular situation, to have avoided the danger/collision, rather than say that they were responsible.

From the viewpoint of reducing risks to the minimum, it's the most efficient method, since, as there's little one can do to force or educate drivers to improve their own behaviour, the best way is always to look at what one might have done differently.

In this instance, (it seems to me) he takes into account the fallibility of the driver and asks what he could have done to prevent him from overtaking in a hazardous manner. Conclusion: he wrongly failed to take the lane. If he had done that, the driver could not, because of oncoming traffic, have overtaken him leaving so little room.

It is better to switch on an led than to curse the darkness, grasshopper

[atbman]

Just read HH's last post - it would seem that the youngster does take the view I've just described. Obviously an intelligent young man :)

[Tude]

While I'm a commuter - I do ride the bus when there's a significant amount of snow falling, piles of snow (reduces road space) or ice (which we've received a lot of this year).

And there are good bus drivers and bad bus drivers, ok - let's just label them Snots.

Good guys allow for things to happen, and pause for drivers, bicyclists or walkers. The Snots hang on the horn and buzz the snot out of whomever is in the BUS lane (as designated within city limits - after that it's the right most lane where cars can park too).

I hate playing grab-arse with a bus when I'm riding on the small section of main street (after a few years now I've eliminated as much busy city riding as possible and have taken to more alleys, side streets and actually cutting across parking lots/sets of steps, etc to avoid the traffic that is getting onto the expressway - sucks during business hours) - since I know the bus schedule - I even wait a few moments to head out home to avoid the bus - but I always seem to hit it.

And most of them do not care where I am in relation to the parked cars on the right of me and them (bus) to the left of me and really don't care when they cut me off so they can ditch a sharp right to the bus stop sign to let someone off or pick up. Those are the Snots. And it's rather interesting to ride the bus when I recognize one of those Snots in action. Unhappy sots.

The good guys I talk to - shoot - they wave to me and talk to me when I do ride the bus - asking me about my bicycling, etc - and those guys are cool with bicyclists, etc. Maybe me talking to them about bicycling helps, who knows. They make the world of difference versus those other bus drivers, aka Snots.

[SpaceNerd]

I guess that's pretty much what it comes down to: some bus drivers are good some bus drivers are bad. I just thought it was interesting the large number of seemingly bad bus drivers for the free shuttles but for now I'm going to chock it up to poor training. The really funny thing is that from the beginning of this thread to the end I've been maintaing that the valley metro bus drivers seem really nice and usually a lot more careful. Saturday I was standing at a crosswalk waiting to cross as there was a metro bus coming my way. He was the only vehicle on the road at that point (pretty early i guess) and he very easily could have just gone since I was waiting for him to pass before I crossed. He came to a complete stop for me to cross the road even though I was clearly waiting for him. I thought that was pretty cool and just confirmed the idea to me that the valley metro drivers are usually much nicer and more careful.

[aubinmg]

Timely thread.
2 weeks a ago a transit bus right hooks me for a stop in the bike lane.
Very close. The beeps to add insult to injury.
Bizarre bus story #2 : Its 6:20 am and a school bus I see regularly and
has 4 stops along the road I ride. I am lit up like a tree, going about 25mph
3' OUTSIDE the bike lane in the car(?) lane. I see its yellows flashing in my
mirror and the kids are lining up for it about 40 yards up the road. It goes
1/2 way into the oncoming lane, right hooks me and starts driving me
dangerously close to the kids queued up for it. They see whats going on
and step back. I look at the driver and ask "what are you doing ?" ...
She beeps and starts yelling stuff back I cant understand. At the red lite
I catch up to the bus and look at her but she wont make eye contact with me.
Very strange.

My experiences interacting with the city of Ottawa bus drivers has always been very good. Generally the professionals (bus, large truck, etc.) are courteous and aware of their surroundings. For me, in Ottawa, the worst drivers on the road are driving our kids to school. Followed by Mr. & Mrs. Minivan. I see that the problem appears to be universal. Further proof that only we are responsible for our safety.

[Helmet Head]

It seems to me that HH looks at what cyclists could have done, in a particular situation, to have avoided the danger/collision, rather than say that they were responsible.

From the viewpoint of reducing risks to the minimum, it's the most efficient method, since, as there's little one can do to force or educate drivers to improve their own behaviour, the best way is always to look at what one might have done differently.

In this instance, (it seems to me) he takes into account the fallibility of the driver and asks what he could have done to prevent him from overtaking in a hazardous manner. Conclusion: he wrongly failed to take the lane. If he had done that, the driver could not, because of oncoming traffic, have overtaken him leaving so little room.

It is better to switch on an led than to curse the darkness, grasshopper
Exactly.

[Helmet Head]

I guess that's pretty much what it comes down to: some bus drivers are good some bus drivers are bad. I just thought it was interesting the large number of seemingly bad bus drivers for the free shuttles but for now I'm going to chock it up to poor training. The really funny thing is that from the beginning of this thread to the end I've been maintaing that the valley metro bus drivers seem really nice and usually a lot more careful. Saturday I was standing at a crosswalk waiting to cross as there was a metro bus coming my way. He was the only vehicle on the road at that point (pretty early i guess) and he very easily could have just gone since I was waiting for him to pass before I crossed. He came to a complete stop for me to cross the road even though I was clearly waiting for him. I thought that was pretty cool and just confirmed the idea to me that the valley metro drivers are usually much nicer and more careful.
It is surely true that some bus drivers are better than others, but I don't think you can assess any driver on the good-bad scale based on his behavior in one incident. If you keep running into the same driver repeatedly demonstrating bad behavior, that's different.

What is also true is that most drivers are pretty good most of the time, and that all drivers do something bad or stupid some of the time, and bus drivers are no different. Some drivers may do bad/stupid stuff more often than others, but, again, that's impossible to assess based on one incident. Nor does it matter.

Just know that all drivers do bad/stupid stuff sooner or later, and ride accordingly. When you encounter it, don't be surprised. Prepare and plan for it, and ride in a manner that mitigates your chances of falling victim to it. That's what safe traffic cycling (and driving) is all about.

[noisebeam]

I thought I'd share a short clip of video of one of these Orbit busses so others can see what is involved. These are a bit unlike metro busses many are familiar with as they are smaller, they can stop anywhere (when on a road posted less than 35mph) and travel 90% of their route on residential 25mph roads.

This clip is not intended to be illustrative of any specific good or bad behavior of me or the bus. I roll up behind the bus while it is stopped waiting to cross a 40mph arterial. I stay behind the bus and make sure I am visible in the drivers rear side mirror. I avoid riding up on the right of the bus (where cyclists are instructed to go to press the "Bicycle Crossing" button. I know this bus will not turn right here due to its route, but I also know that I want to be on the left side of the bus most visible to opposing left turners and that the bus may stop on the opposite side of the intersection.

When the light turns green I stay behind, moving right preparing to be visible in right side bus mirror, waiting to see if the driver will continue or stop, they start to pull over to stop and I pass on left.

Such bus drivers are more predicable than other motorists. They stick to a route, they pull over and pull out of stop and generally obey traffic law much better than the general public (they stop fully at stop signs and I have never found one traveling over the SL, most often they travel 2-3mph below) Since as a cyclist you know they will be pulling over and pulling out there should never be a surprise when the bus does. Plan ahead.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKMArWOuzdU
(45sec clip: 30sec of waiting behind bus, 15sec of moving forward)

Al