Road Cycling - Countersteering...are you sure?

Given that I'm soon to do a race with a very technical descent, the issue of cornering is on the brain at the moment. I know that most experts recommend countersteering...and that's what I've been practicing. However, I just bought the 2003 tour de france, and noticed that the "best descenders" (as stated by the commentators) don't countersteer. They lean in, sticking their inside knee out, similar to what motorcyclists do - the very opposite of what countersteering is. In fact, I was hard pressed to find any in the peloton countersteering on those sharp steep curves. What gives? Is does countersteering provide theoretical advantages, whereas in real life, the other way is faster? Or is it that stubborn riders, set in their ways don't want to learn a new way to turn?

I have ridden and raced motorcycles for years and I can guarentee you that every motorcyclist on any race track will be using countersteering to iinitiate the turn in on any corner, there is simply no faster way to get a 350lb bike travelling at speeds often in triple digits to turn. Don't confuse lean angle and knee dragging with counter steering.

for the most comprehensive analysis of motorbike steering check out keith codes books, or check out his california superbike school website.

Peter

I take high-speed corners with my inside knee out, a hard lean, and I counter steer. I think you may be confused with what a counter steer is. My quick explanation: while initiating a turn, apply pressure to the side of the handle bar that is on the inside of the turn, essentially turning the opposite way of the turn. This will drop the bike into the turn - keep applying pressure as the radius of the turn decreases. This will force the proper lean angle.

Like Renault78law said; countersteering is not about bike lean, it's about pulling on the opposite (from the direction you want to go) handlebar to initiate the turn. So if you want to turn left, pull gently on the right bar. Or you could push on the left bar, same result. Gently is the keyword, and it takes plenty of practice, practice, practice.

If you go thru the turn at high speed, you (from what I have read) have to counter steer, the physics of a two wheeled machine. For me it is something you do more than think about.

Hrm...ok, maybe I don't know what countersteering really is...perhaps someone can help clear this up? Here is my understanding based on past internet research:
1) Stand.
2) Apply a lot of pressure to the outside pedal which should be down.
3) As you come into the turn, pull with the inside hand.
4) Inside knee should be in, pushing against the frame, not hanging out.
5) The bike should lean into the turn while the rider remains relatively upright.

I think I remember all this stuff from an article that someone posted on this site...
Help?

Countersteering, is pushing on the inside bar, instead of pulling on it. Countersteering is something virtually everyone does subconsciously. As you lean into a turn, it is the natural tendency to push on the inside bar, to support your weight. Some people say to pull on the outside bar, but I find it much more stable to push on the inside one. Once you become good at it, you have alot more control while turning. You can changer your line with very minor movements. ALL motorcycle racers countersteer. It doesnt matter if you put your knee out or not. That has no bearing on the turn. Pro motorcycle racers put their knees out to help judge the lean of the bike. They will actually touch their knees to the road, for extra support. I have actually seen riders touch down elbows in pictures. You wont be leaning far enough on a bicycle to touch a knee down. :)

Given that I'm soon to do a race with a very technical descent, the issue of cornering is on the brain at the moment. I know that most experts recommend countersteering...and that's what I've been practicing. However, I just bought the 2003 tour de france, and noticed that the "best descenders" (as stated by the commentators) don't countersteer. They lean in, sticking their inside knee out, similar to what motorcyclists do - the very opposite of what countersteering is. In fact, I was hard pressed to find any in the peloton countersteering on those sharp steep curves. What gives? Is does countersteering provide theoretical advantages, whereas in real life, the other way is faster? Or is it that stubborn riders, set in their ways don't want to learn a new way to turn?

At speeds low enough that the effects of centrifigal force don't come into play, we turn a motorcycle or bicycle wheel in the direction that we wish to travel. When riding a motorcycle through a parking lot at 5-8 mph, I'm not countersteering. Even at 20mph I can steer in the direction that I wish to go if I also add a little bit of lean. If I tried countersteering at these speeds, I'd fall over. At higher speeds, when centrifigal force becomes a bigger factor, if the wheel is turned in the direction I want to go, I would be thrown from the bike to the outside of the turn. What I do instead is countersteer while leaning to the inside of the turn. Basically, I'm putting the motorcycle into a fall towards the inside of the turn, while centrifigal force is holding it up. The balance of all elements in this case is very important. The grip of the tyre, how much countersteer, how much body lean, and of course how much centrifigal force is generated will determine the maximum speed at which I can get through a corner. At one extreme, the fall angle of the bike and body lean (to the inside of the curve) is so severe that it exceeds the tyre grip and I go down in a lowside slide. The other extreme, is that the centrifical force to the outside of the curve exceeds the fall angle and body lean that I'm using for the curve and the bike and I run off the road to the outside of the curve.

Well... try this. Picture a bicycle moving straight down the road with the rider directly centered on the bike. If the rider steers the tires to the right but does not allow his head to move farther to the right the bike is now leaning left. Countersteering is using the leverage of the tire contact patch to force the bike or motorcycle to lean in the desired direction. Kind of like powersteering for two wheels. If you don't coutersteer, you rely solely on your shifting weight to overcome the gyroscopic effect of the two spinning wheels. On a motorcycle with relatively heavy tire/wheel weight the bike will literally fight you if you don't coutersteer.

With practice you start the lean by countersteering and then catch the amount of lean and hold it by decreasing the counter pressure. Remember, with the light weight of a bicycle these moves are pretty subtle. You don't want to "whip" right and then go left.

Star motorcycle school, has a motorcycle that will not steer with the handle bars. They are locked straight ahead. It is to prove to the riders, that leaning doesnt have the effect on turning, that people think it does. They make you try to turn it with only leaning. It wont. It is to prove the power of countersteering to the students.

Centrifugal force does not exist. It's a name that someone started applying to a bunch of physical forces that come into play with rotational dynamics. Kind of like the word "ain't", though, it's become accepted.

Here's a pic of a near elbow touch. It is a pic of Eric Bostrom. He can ride a bike past its limits better than anyone in the world.

Those guys are incredible. People watch NASCAR for the crashes, I watch superbike for the bike handling. Insane.

Here's a pic of a near elbow touch. It is a pic of Eric Bostrom. He can ride a bike past its limits better than anyone in the world.

Not to get too argumentative, but Eric isn't in the same league as Rossi and a couple of the other GP racers :) The control that Rossi has on bike is beyond incredible.

Peter

Rossi is on the best motorcycle in the world. Eric is (was) riding a 10 year old ZX7rr. He was still winning races, on an outdated machine. Rossi,,,,, is the best rider of our century. He is a once in a lifetime rider. We are lucky to have seen him in his prime. Bostrom,,,, can bleed more out of an inadequate machine. Me thinks, anyway. :)

Centrifugal force does not exist. It's a name that someone started applying to a bunch of physical forces that come into play with rotational dynamics. Kind of like the word "ain't", though, it's become accepted.


It's a layman's term to get people to understand the concept, without having to go into detail above their heads. You can teach young students about centrifugal force, but try explaining it to them as an infinite number of inertial vectors. In nuclear physics, we are taught things up through high school that will be corrected later when we move to the next higher level.

Having done many road races but no crits and having undoubtably countersteered on a number of occasions, I'm confused by some contradictory info on this thread.

Simple question: On a right turn, do you push on the right or left bar?

Having done many road races but no crits and having undoubtably countersteered on a number of occasions, I'm confused by some contradictory info on this thread.

Simple question: On a right turn, do you push on the right or left bar?

On a right turn you push on the right bar or pull on the left (which ever way is easier to copmprehend). You do it without thinking about it any time you have any kind of forward momentum. It's the only way to turn. It's what sets up the lean angle. The harder you push the more severe the lean angle will be. Once leaned over you continue to push on the bar to increase lean angle or push on the other bar to come out of the lean or decrease the lean angle.

Hrm...ok, maybe I don't know what countersteering really is...perhaps someone can help clear this up? Here is my understanding based on past internet research:
1) Stand.
2) Apply a lot of pressure to the outside pedal which should be down.
3) As you come into the turn, pull with the inside hand.
4) Inside knee should be in, pushing against the frame, not hanging out.
5) The bike should lean into the turn while the rider remains relatively upright.


Well I'm completely baffled by this; but I have a personal, close interest having decked myself earlier this year in a crit whilst cornering.

1. I've never seen anyone corner standing out of the saddle.
2. Assuming a left turn: If you apply pressure to the right pedal this causes the bike to move to the right, i.e. to become more upright; the body must lean into the corner (to the left in this case) to counterbalance. This seems reasonable to me.
3. No comment
4. The opposite of what I do.
5 The opposite again, and counter to what (2) does.

I have never seen a picture of a *road* cyclist cornering at high speed with the body relatively more upright than the bike as point (5) says; can anyone post one? All the pros seem to so is (sometimes) stick their knees out into the corner and keep the bike and body in line. Smoothness seems to be the watchword - they don't look like they're going fast (!!). Note that in the (wonderful) motorcyle pic earlier the rider is leaning into the corner, is less upright than the bike, which is what I would expect for our slow ones too.

The best tubular tyres for cornering?

I think the question that Renault is trying to ask is – “Do you point your inside knee down/out while counter-steering?” Most all sources (for cycling - not motorcycles!) recommend putting your inside knee up against the top-tube while counter-steering in an effort to stabilize and feel the bike through the turn. This is the "new school" approach. This position feels odd to me, and I still point my knee out/down. However, I’d like to try what the experts are preaching.

Does anyone counter-steer with their inside knee against the top-tube. If so, what are your impressions???

ThanX!

... 2003 tour de france, and noticed that the "best descenders" ... don't countersteer. They lean in, sticking their inside knee out, similar to what motorcyclists do - the very opposite of what countersteering is. In fact, I was hard pressed to find any in the peloton countersteering on those sharp steep curves.

Maybe the pros don't read the same books we do? :)
I'm with you, I've *never* seen countersteering - maybe the effect is so subtle it can't be seen?
Have you a URL you can post describing countersteering, maybe with some pix?

I'm sorry, but the only way you can get a bike to turn at anything other than a low speed is to countersteer. If you try to turn the bars right to turn right at anyspeed above walking pace, you'll end up falling off or going left.

When the pros are turning left they initially push on the left bar which enhances the lean.

If you've ever tried to turn a motorbike with squared off tyres you'll know that countersteering is essential (and you have to push hard)

On a push bike the effect is subtle, but if you read Richards bicycle book, he advocates a rapid countersteer to drop the bike into a steep turn to avoid accidents

Roy: I had the same thoughts while reading the 5 points that Renault posted. The image of a rider standing while maintaining an upright position in a corner struck me as odd also.

1) Stand. - No. A lower center of gravity is preferable. Which is why you'll see a lot of riders hunch down even further while cornering.

2) Apply a lot of pressure to the outside pedal which should be down. - I don't know why you'd apply any pressure to the a pedal in a turn. Also, to prevent the pedal from hitting the ground, the inside pedal should be up.

3) As you come into the turn, pull with the inside hand. - no comment

4) Inside knee should be in, pushing against the frame, not hanging out. ?

5) The bike should lean into the turn while the rider remains relatively upright. - rider and bike should be parallel.

To turn well, you need to initiate the turn with countersteering, and lean. Once the motorcycle is off center, the turn is automatic because of the smaller diameter of the outside edge of the tire. It is not necessary to put your knee out or down. It is best to shift your body weight to the inside of the turn. This keeps your weight from fighting the automatic geometry of the motorcycle. Without countersteering and lean, a motorcycle will automatically correct itself to a straight track. Mike Hailwood was one example of a great road racer, that did not put a knee down. He did use body weight to turn, though. Here is a picture of his style. There is only one way to turn a motorcycle at fast speeds, and that is by countersteering. Some people use different braking techniques to corner quicker, but they all turn the same way.

I think some are confusing counter steering with what seems more like a form of counter balanceing.

Maybe the pros don't read the same books we do? :)
I'm with you, I've *never* seen countersteering - maybe the effect is so subtle it can't be seen?


I think the confusion comes about because you can't see countersteering. All it is is pushing on the side of bar that is on the inside of the turn. It's not some radical manuver that riders make.

Here's what confused me: If you standing over your bike and not moving, pushing on the right side of the bar causes the wheel to turn left. However, when moving this 'causes the bike to move to the right. So it's contrary to what one thinks would happen. Countersteering to me isn't really steering counter to the way you're turning, but rather turning the front wheel in the opposite direction of the turn which in reality causes you to turn in the direction you need.

So, if you're turning right, you push on the right side of the bar which cuases the wheel to turn left but really turns you to the right in a much better manner.

I'm sorry, but the only way you can get a bike to turn at anything other than a low speed is to countersteer. If you try to turn the bars right to turn right at anyspeed above walking pace, you'll end up falling off or going left.


OK I have to take your word for it; I have been riding crits for years, on my best day able to follow some of the good guys, and I've never known I've been countersteering. However, I do know that once you've started a corner, it's not possible to change your line by steering. I shan't try it again.... :)

When the pros are turning left they initially push on the left bar which enhances the lean.


http://www.kissena.info/davescorner/4.html

Thus creating the effect labeled as countersteering in this link?

1) Stand. - No. A lower center of gravity is preferable. Which is why you'll see a lot of riders hunch down even further while cornering.

2) Apply a lot of pressure to the outside pedal which should be down. - I don't know why you'd apply any pressure to the a pedal in a turn. Also, to prevent the pedal from hitting the ground, the inside pedal should be up.

3) As you come into the turn, pull with the inside hand. - no comment

4) Inside knee should be in, pushing against the frame, not hanging out. ?

5) The bike should lean into the turn while the rider remains relatively upright. - rider and bike should be parallel.

1. Absolutely, lower is better.

2.

http://www.kissena.info/davescorner/4.html

Pushing on the outside lifts the bike, creating the effect labelled 'steering' above (not as severe as that, I guess, but the bike is more upright than the rider). It seems to be more stable to me. And is the opposite of the push-on-the-bars being discussed.

5. This would be my instinct (I have been trying the push-on-the-outside) and it seems to me to be what the pros actually do.

To be a little non-technical, descending has been described to me as a mental process. Completely mental; you connect your eyes directly to your balls, disconnecting your brain.

http://www.kissena.info/davescorner/4.html

Thus creating the effect labeled as countersteering in this link?

Yes, but I can't think I ever initiate a turn by leaning, because it seems virtually impossible to lean without initiating it by a countersteer.

Try it on a straight road, if you could lean the bike while keeping the steering straight I don't think you would turn. However when you lean a bike with the steering not fixed, the castor action of the front wheel causes a turn. if you could fix the wheels in a straight line, lean the bike, I'm sure it would still go straight.

To try to lean without initiating by even a small countersteer is very difficult if not impossible. i think it's instinctive..

http://www.kissena.info/davescorner/4.html

If you lean a bike without any steering, you will fall over. I was teaching someone to ride a bike a few years back and if someone starts to lean, say to the right, to remain upright, one must steer to the right. We do this without thinking about it, but we do it (shift our weight and slightly steer) in very small amounts and very quickly to stay upright.

So when we lean, there is some steering. Countersteering is leaning more which means we would need to understeer to stay upright.

In watching the pros as well as others that decent really fast, they lean and countersteer when it gets tight. This seems to be the most natural. They set up their line though the turn to set up for the next turn, and use up most of the lane, so it helps to know the roads. The fastest decenters tend to be really smooth and confident. I know that when I practice and feel confident I can really lean into a corner and develop a rhythum. I think it is very important to steer by keeping the bike as upright as possible, this is counterintuitive but if you watch some motorcyclist get off the seat to hang into the turn, they're trying to keep the bike as upright as possible. As stated on the by david sommerville on the kissena site, steering is the best way to stay upright when slippy and wet, sandy, etc. I don't think it's slower for the bike, but it is slower because it is not natural to the rider...so practice, practice, practice.

I taugt motorcycle safety classes for roughly a decade, and there is lots of confusion there on this issue.

For a two-wheeled vehicle to turn, it needs to lean. A lean is simply described as moving center of gravity to one side of the track of the vehicle.

There are two ways to do this. One can either shift the mass of the vehicle towards the inside, or one can move the track of the vehicle towards the outside.

The first is often termed "body-steering". The effectiveness of body steering depends upon how much weight you can move, and how far you can move it. On a bicycle, the rider's weight is much higher than the bike, but you really can't move you're weight much to the inside, so you can't get a lot of effect there. For motorcycles, if you're willing to hang off, you can get your body over a fair bit, but most riders are light compared to the bike, so this isn't really that effective. It *is* tremendously effective to a) allow you to corner tighter before you run into ground-clearance problems and b) keep track of how far you're leaned over, which is why motorcyclings do it.

The second way of establishing lean is counter-steering. If you look at a vehicle from the rear, if you want to turn to the right, you need to get the bike leaning that direction. You do this by steering the front wheel to the left, which drives the track out to the left, and the whole vehicle rotates to the right around the center of mass (mostly around the rider on a light vehicle like a bicycle). I think of it as "steering the wheels out from under the vehicle".

At reasonable speeds, it's pretty clear what happens, since the gyroscopic action keeps the wheels from deflecting much at all. At low speeds, it's a bit more complicated - a countersteer to the side is needed to initiate the lean, and then a steering back in the direction of the turn (since otherwise you'd fall over).

There is also a tiny contribution of precession to turning in two-wheeled vehicles, but it's not a significant effect.

Yes, but I can't think I ever initiate a turn by leaning, because it seems virtually impossible to lean without initiating it by a countersteer.
...
To try to lean without initiating by even a small countersteer is very difficult if not impossible. i think it's instinctive..

Instinctive... Well I think it must be. I have always *thought* that I took corners by turning the handlebars into the corner - albeit slightly - and at the same time leaning the bike also into the corner. Slight speed improvements gained by (a) sticking my knee out into the corner (b) leaning my body into the corner, holding the bike more upright. Everything on this thread about countersteer has been counterintuitive - indeed, how did I ever get round a corner before :) ??

If everyone looks at the picture on page 1, I'll see if I can explain this. First, I'm no expert, I wasnt aware of countersteering before I read this post, but here it goes.

Look at the front wheel of the motorcycle. Now imagine a line going from the outside of the track, throught the contact patch of the tire then to the inside of the curve. The forces applied to the front wheel follow this line but the forces go to the inside of the curve NOT THE OUTSIDE. This is the key. If you look closely there is some turning of the wheel. The wheel must turn in order to change direction. The forces going to inside of the turn want to turn the wheel further without rider input. Imagine riding down the street and turning your wheel very quickly without leaning. You'll flip over!!! This same thing will happen to the leaning rider, you'll wash out or flip over from the wheel turning under. The only way to prevent this is to push back on the bar with your inside hand to counter the forces trying to turn the wheel under.

The amount of rake, headtube angle, and other steering dimensions will determine how much countersteering is needed. i'd imagine bikes with lots of rack and mellow headtube angle need more countersteering.

A way to better understand this is to go around a corner with one hand on the bar.....try it..

The reason we hang off the motorcycle is to increase traction and/or change direction by moving the center of gravity around. The more you lean, the more upright the bike can be, and an upright bike has more rubber on the road. By hanging off in a corner, you can turn a tighter line than without. For example..

take a look at the first photo below, the Rider in the foreground is riding in the same line as the guy in front of him, not the line that the tires are pointing in. It looks like the bike is about to shoot off the side of the photo, but in reality, he will end up where the guy in front of him currently is, and he is looking up the track where he is headed.


The second photos shows more of the same, and its another bad ass photo of Eric Bostrom. You can see the tire marks on the track indicating the racing line, and you can see by the angle of his head that its a left hand corner


OK.... Back to the counter steer, yes it is used, often unknowingly to get the bike leaning for a turn. You can simply stand over your bicycle and turn the bars to the right, which side does the frame fall to? Now turn them to the left, which side does the frame fall to?

OK last photo... Its Miguel Duhamel, he is obviously turning to his right, but notice the front wheel? Its turned slightly to his left.