Living Car Free - Snow removal sucks for carfree/carlight people. Discrimination?

Snow removal is almost totally geared for the automobile. Is this a case of discrimination? Is there anything we can do about this? Examples:


I had a cop pull me over because I was walking in the street--a minor residential street--after a snowfall. She said, "You're really supposed to use the sidewalk where one is provided for you." I said, "It isn't really provided because it's so slippery that I feel the street is safer." She said, "Well, I just want you to be safe, and I really think the sidewalk is safer."

A large regional food chain failed all winter to clear the sidewalks in front of their offices and a vacant lot that they own. I went in to complain, left a note requesting that they should "continue to be good corporate citizens" and clear the sidewalks for pedestrians. A PR guy called me back within the hour. He was very respectful and said they'd get on it right away. However, they never did anything.

When walking I default to the streets if a sidewalk isn't shoveled or plowed.

I don't worry about cars - if it's that slick out they're going slow anyway and plenty or time to avoid them.

When walking I default to the streets if a sidewalk isn't shoveled or plowed.

I don't worry about cars - if it's that slick out they're going slow anyway and plenty or time to avoid them.

We had two kids die here in Lansing because they were walking in the streets to avoid snow covered sidewalks. I've been almost hit a couple times while walking. Sometimes you can't avoid cars unless you're fit enough to jump over the big snowbanks thrown up by the plows.

This is a familiar problem to me. I've done snow and ice removal in this level of winter before, and it is brutally hard physical labor. I bought good boots, and can get through most sidewalk conditions safely. I'm thanking my lucky stars that I don't need a walker, wheelchair or anything else to get around tho.

At least around here, I don't think the intent is discrimination. It's sheer exhaustion. Most sidewalks are reasonably clear. I'm not going to blame a homeowner for an icy sidewalk when it hasn't been above 15F all week, since that means the only way to clear it is chipping ice. I do note that most doctors' offices, hospitals, and clinics have the absolute worst snow and ice removal tho... Makes me feel like they view the weather as a way to make sure they have lots of patients.

Technically, in Madison, property owners are required to have their sidewalks free of ice and snow and access to crosswalks cleared. It is a $110-150 fine for each offense. Alas, some people still suck.

I fall to the opposite side of this. I don't think there should be ANY type of snow removal.
Leave it be, let it melt on it's own. If you drive and have an accident, charge all drivers invol ed with failure to control.
Salt is so bad for the enviroment, and the road surface, and plowing requires a large investment in equipment and time, and is bad on the road as well.
So don't clean any of it. Leave it.

I fall to the opposite side of this. I don't think there should be ANY type of snow removal.
Leave it be, let it melt on it's own. If you drive and have an accident, charge all drivers invol ed with failure to control.
Salt is so bad for the enviroment, and the road surface, and plowing requires a large investment in equipment and time, and is bad on the road as well.
So don't clean any of it. Leave it.

I vaguely remember just that occurring in Iowa in the winter around my grandparents farm, they just stuck flags on bamboo poles at the curves and you drove on the packed down snow...don't ever remember snow plows.

Aaron:)

I fall to the opposite side of this. I don't think there should be ANY type of snow removal.
Leave it be, let it melt on it's own. If you drive and have an accident, charge all drivers invol ed with failure to control.
Salt is so bad for the enviroment, and the road surface, and plowing requires a large investment in equipment and time, and is bad on the road as well.
So don't clean any of it. Leave it.

This might work in Lansing, where we get less than 100 inches of snow. But it might not work in Traverse City, where I am right now, with its 200 inches a year. And it sure won't work up in Marquette where they sometimes get 300 inches of snow. And snow in TC and Marquette won't "melt on its own" until at least March, more likely April.

I don't like salt much either. It's bad for bikes, shoes and clothing as well as roads and the environment. They're starting to talk about using sugar beet juice instead of salt to melt ice and snow. Supposedly it's more effective, lasts longer, and is less destructive. It looks pretty sticky, however. I don't know what would happen if it got in your bike's drive train.

Heck with carfree people, I feel bad for people with disabilities. If I can't get onto the bus because there is no path through the hill of snow or get down the sidewalk, how is someone not as able-bodied as myself able to?

I say walk on the slippery sidewalk, then slip, and sue the sidewalk owners for not shoveling and salting their sidewalks.

I fall to the opposite side of this. I don't think there should be ANY type of snow removal.
Leave it be, let it melt on it's own. If you drive and have an accident, charge all drivers invol ed with failure to control.
Salt is so bad for the enviroment, and the road surface, and plowing requires a large investment in equipment and time, and is bad on the road as well.
So don't clean any of it. Leave it.

I agree about the salt. But many cities don't use it anymore. The problem with not plowing a street - as proved by my city's crummy response to a blizzard in '06, is that cars pack down the snow, which refreezes to ice and then creates deep ruts in the street which are horrible for cars and impossible for biking. Think of when you almost get caught in a train track or some other street groove. Not fun.

These layers of ice take weeks and weeks to melt, especially on side streets where the sun doesn't hit well.

I agree about the salt. But many cities don't use it anymore. The problem with not plowing a street - as proved by my city's crummy response to a blizzard in '06, is that cars pack down the snow, which refreezes to ice and then creates deep ruts in the street which are horrible for cars and impossible for biking. Think of when you almost get caught in a train track or some other street groove. Not fun.

These layers of ice take weeks and weeks to melt, especially on side streets where the sun doesn't hit well.
This is a perfect description of my city right now. I haven't ridden on a side street for weeks. Only the main streets are passable for a bike. I don't mind riding on them, but I know a lot of cyclists won't do it. a car can pass on any street. There's that unfairness again!

Then there's the potholes on those main streets. I've gone beyond the point of worrying if they'll crack my rims. I'm at the point of worrying that the pot holes will swallow up my entire bike--and me with it.

OTLS: I was just reading something Sheldon Brown said about potholes: "The should call the little ones pot holes, the bigger ones coke holes, and the really huge ones smack holes."

:lol:

i live in texas now. remind me again, what is this stuff you call "snow"? :D

i live in texas now. remind me again, what is this stuff you call "snow"? :D

It's amazingly beautiful white crystals that fall out of the sky. It falls where you want it, it falls where you don't want it, and therein lies a problem. We northerners spend half the year trying to move it away from where we don't want it. And sometimes we spend almost as much time arguing about where we do want it and how to get it there.

Anyway, it gives us something to talk about much of the time. I hope it's entertaining for y'all southerners to eavesdrop on our arguments sometimes. What do you guys do with all the free time you have from not dealing with snow?

Snow removal is almost totally geared for the automobile. Is this a case of discrimination? Is there anything we can do about this? Examples:


I had a cop pull me over because I was walking in the street--a minor residential street--after a snowfall. She said, "You're really supposed to use the sidewalk where one is provided for you." I said, "It isn't really provided because it's so slippery that I feel the street is safer." She said, "Well, I just want you to be safe, and I really think the sidewalk is safer."

A large regional food chain failed all winter to clear the sidewalks in front of their offices and a vacant lot that they own. I went in to complain, left a note requesting that they should "continue to be good corporate citizens" and clear the sidewalks for pedestrians. A PR guy called me back within the hour. He was very respectful and said they'd get on it right away. However, they never did anything.



Not sure if this is the case in every state, but in many the law says landowners must clear the sidewalk in front of their property of snow.

Not sure if this is the case in every state, but in many the law says landowners must clear the sidewalk in front of their property of snow.

Here it goes by the city. We have an ordinance requiring sidewalk shoveling within 24 hours of a storm. But it's only a $100 fine, which, for the company I mentioned, is probably less than the cost of removing the snow. Besides, the law isn't really enforced. The little girl who got killed by a car last year was walking by city property, so they don't even obey the law they're supposed to be upholding.

Columbus does this for side streets. Well, more precisely, they don't plow the side streets in the poor neighborhoods. They just let nature take its course. It works out quit nicely actually, people drive slower, the street looks alot nicer with white snow and ice rather than brown slush, and usually it melts within a week or two on its own. Saves the city a bundle I suspect, although I wish they'd apply the concept a little more evenly across the city.

Sidewalks are the province of the property owner. I have an elderly neighbor who walks in front of my house to the bus stop so i make it a point to have my sidewalk in prestine condition before I leave for work in the morning. I wish more of my neighbors felt the same way.

The city plows the MUP which is the awesomest thing ever. It is typically cleared before some of the main streets are.




I fall to the opposite side of this. I don't think there should be ANY type of snow removal.
Leave it be, let it melt on it's own. If you drive and have an accident, charge all drivers invol ed with failure to control.
Salt is so bad for the enviroment, and the road surface, and plowing requires a large investment in equipment and time, and is bad on the road as well.
So don't clean any of it. Leave it.

What do you guys do with all the free time you have from not dealing with snow?

We have uncomfortable rides in 30 to 40 degree rain.

We have uncomfortable rides in 30 to 40 degree rain.

Fun! We only get to do that in the months of March, April, May, October and November.

It's amazingly beautiful white crystals that fall out of the sky. It falls where you want it, it falls where you don't want it, and therein lies a problem. We northerners spend half the year trying to move it away from where we don't want it. And sometimes we spend almost as much time arguing about where we do want it and how to get it there.

Anyway, it gives us something to talk about much of the time. I hope it's entertaining for y'all southerners to eavesdrop on our arguments sometimes. What do you guys do with all the free time you have from not dealing with snow?

It just makes me homesick. I don't mind a few train service disruptions, Metro north wouldn't/couldn't run most of it's fleet in the snow, or having to shovel when I woke up. If it was bad enough my old boss just had everyone stay home as it wasn't worth it. if I had a job I had to get to it might not have been all rosy.
Unfortunately for me what I do with my free time not dealing with the snow is mostly make up for the sleep I missed due to house shaking thunderstorms and tornado sirens oh wait uhm "Severe Weather Alarms" is what they call them. Three twisters within a few miles since moving here is a little too much for this transplant :( Bailing out the water from flood rains and cleaning up after all the high winds is always fun too ;)

Columbus does this for side streets. Well, more precisely, they don't plow the side streets in the poor neighborhoods. They just let nature take its course. It works out quit nicely actually, people drive slower, the street looks alot nicer with white snow and ice rather than brown slush, and usually it melts within a week or two on its own. Saves the city a bundle I suspect, although I wish they'd apply the concept a little more evenly across the city.

Sidewalks are the province of the property owner. I have an elderly neighbor who walks in front of my house to the bus stop so i make it a point to have my sidewalk in prestine condition before I leave for work in the morning. I wish more of my neighbors felt the same way.

The city plows the MUP which is the awesomest thing ever. It is typically cleared before some of the main streets are.

I don't who's fault that is...when I was growing up we always looked out for our neighbors, especially the elderly and the single parent families, seems to be a thing of the past. Now, no class scum prey on the elderly. I spent many a cold morning shoveling driveways for some of our elderly neighbors at the direction of my parents and never was paid or expected to be paid for it (at least monetary compensation) but received many wonderful gifts over the years.

Aaron:)

Good points about negligent business owners, but I have to say the streets you describe CAN BE BIKED. You just have to have the proper equipment. My winter bike rides over ice and deep ruts with no problems. Only deep snow or slush will stop it. Get a good mountain bike or cruiser and equip it with nokian studs and you should be good to go.

Good points about negligent business owners, but I have to say the streets you describe CAN BE BIKED. You just have to have the proper equipment. My winter bike rides over ice and deep ruts with no problems. Only deep snow or slush will stop it. Get a good mountain bike or cruiser and equip it with nokian studs and you should be good to go.

I haven't had much trouble biking in the winter. But walking is for the fit and strong only. The bus is difficult for everybody because the stops are all plowed in. You know how you usually have to step UP to get on a bus? Well, in the winter you sometimes step DOWN! And when it starts to melt....oh boy!

The point is, all the streets are plowed for the CARS, along with parking lots. But almost nothing is done to help the PEOPLE. It always seems like we cater to our machines.

As far as sidewalk cleaning here. We are recommended NOT to clean them at all. If we clean them and there is a fall, we are liable because we did not do a good job. If we don't clean them, it is walk at your own risk.

As far as the snow being packed on the streets until April if you don't plow, so what, Don't drive, don't bike. Walk. Snowmobile. Sled dogs, I can see a whole new industry breeding, boarding, selling sled dogs,and building sleds. Sounds like more jobs to me.

I fall to the opposite side of this. I don't think there should be ANY type of snow removal.
Leave it be, let it melt on it's own. If you drive and have an accident, charge all drivers invol ed with failure to control.
Salt is so bad for the enviroment, and the road surface, and plowing requires a large investment in equipment and time, and is bad on the road as well.
So don't clean any of it. Leave it.

This solution might work if you're in an area where the snow melts in a couple of days on its own, but it does not work if you're in an area that gets long and cold winters with a lot of snow. There are places where the snow can come in October and last until May. In those areas, streets are ploughed regularly and a sand mixture — not salt — is used. The goal is to provide traction, not to melt the snow. In spring, once the snow has melted, the leftover sand is swept up and hauled away.

It's kind of funny, because last time I was in Minneapolis I rode my bike to the local shop right after a pretty large snow and the streets and sidewalks were a complete mess, but when I got to the greenways, the bike paths were perfectly cleared. Smooth sailing. I was happy.

As far as the snow being packed on the streets until April if you don't plow, so what, Don't drive, don't bike. Walk. Snowmobile. Sled dogs, I can see a whole new industry breeding, boarding, selling sled dogs,and building sleds. Sounds like more jobs to me.

Walking doesn't really solve anything unless everything you need is within a mile or so, even in the summer. Plus, I think you must have missed the part where he mentioned the areas that get 300+ inches of snow. You're not going to walk in that, the snow on the ground can be over your head in parts. I'm sure snowmobiles are horribly inefficient compared to cars, and pollute quite a bit more. Dog sleds, you have to house and feed a pack of dogs. What are the environmental impacts of everyone owning ~10 dogs that need to eat a crazy amount of food, mostly in the form of raw meat?