Commuting - BROOKS B17 Imperial – Looking for Testers

Brooks England Ltd. is looking for about 10 people to test a prototype saddle called the B17 Imperial. It’s a saddle with cut out, meant to solve the problems of those who can’t sit comfortably on a traditional Brooks Saddle because they feel too much pressure at the front.
-Why is Brooks doing this?- You may comment…
Nowadays most saddle manufacturers are offering a range of “anatomical” saddles, claiming that they were the first to find this solution or that their invention works best. We recently discovered that John Boultbee Brooks is the inventor of the saddle with cutting. In many pages of the BROOKS 1890 catalogue you can read that the Imperial, Long Distance, Climax and many more saddles have “registered cutting that is a certain preventive to all perineal pressure”.
I would like to have some feedback on the idea of reintroducing the original Brooks cut out design on the B17 and, maybe, on other models like the Team Pro in their men’s and women’s versions.
As I’ve read many posts on “modified saddles”, I’d also like you to share your experiences if you have ridden a Brooks saddle with self made cut out.
Why did you cut it? Why do you like the cut out? Why don’t you?
I hope to see many posts on this subject.
If you are INTERESTED IN TESTING A SAMPLE I will be able to have about 10 pieces in about a month. Please send me a PM if you’d like to get one of the samples. Shouldn’t I be able to send samples to all those who ask for it, I’ll choose among those who give the best inputs on this thread.
Thanks

Private message sent.

The lack of cut-out available in Brooks is the reason that i've been so uneasy about spending the money to buy one lately. I have been looking for a while, and the B-17 seems like the proper design to choose from - but saddle numbness is a problem for me and i'd been trying to find a solution that had both the fit of leather and the "anatomic groove"

Its for that reason that I was starting to consider a Selle An-Atomica, but news of Brooks with a possible cut out is pretty interesting too.

Why don’t you?

I have a Brooks B17, which I've had for just over a year. It took about 1000 miles to really break-in, but with about 6500 miles is now really comfortable. I have looked at what others have done with cutting theirs, but I'm afraid I would cut wrong or cut too much and mess it up. After all the miles I have invested, I'd hate to take the risk. Now if Brooks believes they know just how to cut them, I would be willing to give one a try. But I better get to keep it after I've broken it in. Besides, it will be form fitted for my butt.

Walter

PM sent

Great news!! I would love to try a Brooks with a cut out. I actually went from a B-17 to a Selle Anatomica on the commuter because I wanted something with a cut out to ensure I didn't do any damage in that most important area. Keep us up to date on the status of the Imperial samples and most definitely put me down on the list to try and evaluate one. I do a 16 mile RT commute each day and would be willing to provide any type of feedback needed.

I would like to try one. I currently have gel/foam saddle with a groove. Have been considering leather on, would love to compare the two.

PM sent.

I'm very interested in a B.17 with a cutout. I love my Champion Std., but I do find that on rides over 50 miles I end up standing up more often than I'd like to keep my bits from going numb.

To kick it off with some feedback: Perineal pressure has only been part of my problem. The fleshy tissue between my cheeks is also a problem. The B17 has solved some of it, but to be at a position of equlibrium I have to have the nose pointed sky high, which indeed puts pressure back on the perineum.

It's funny, I've actually come to know that I am centered on my B17 when my perinum is resting on the nose. My commute is a short 18 miles one way, so I usually don't get numbness but just a hint of all the time pain is definitely there. I wish I could drop the nose, but when I do I slide all over. On my road bike I don't seem to fit any other Brooks, but the B17 puts WAY to much pressure on the perineum due to the severity of the drop.

Why I stay with the Brooks is because of my sciatica. I have tried so many saddles it makes my head spin, and found the WTB SST series to fit alright, but it still puts pressure in the between the cheeks area I mentioned above. My sciatica still acts up using the SST saddles because they're just a hair not wide enough, but the B17 is wide enough that I'm no longer pinching my sciatic nerve! Having ridden most of my life this sciatica has become a real nuisance, so the B17 is a godsend.

Now if I could just get rid of the perineal pain!

I have not cut my B17 just yet, and will give it more time before I do. Folks say as they break in they also lower the nose. Mine will have to go down quite a distance before I'm pain free, but I'm going to give it 1500 miles before I start hacking.

I'm at about 345 miles right now. At 150 a week I should be there in just less than 8 more weeks...faster if I do some weekend rides with the wife and kiddo. I'll definitely post up before it goes to the knife!

I think the Imperial is a great idea. The only reason I went B17 and not Selle Anatomica is price. Were the Selle Anatomica as cheap as my B17 ($50 for me) then that is most certainly the route I would have gone. If the Imperial had been a choice then who knows?!

Andrea, I know everyone would love to try one of these, and I want the folks who will give you the best assessment and feedback to get one. Of course I would like to think I am the best candidate, but I'm certain this thread will show us who really is and we'll get to hear feedback on a really cool new saddle!

Thanks for deciding to do this, a very cool move on Brooks part indeed. Impressive considering the continuing big-boxization of our culture.

The lack of cut-out available in Brooks is the reason that i've been so uneasy about spending the money to buy one lately. I have been looking for a while, and the B-17 seems like the proper design to choose from - but saddle numbness is a problem for me and i'd been trying to find a solution that had both the fit of leather and the "anatomic groove"

Its for that reason that I was starting to consider a Selle An-Atomica, but news of Brooks with a possible cut out is pretty interesting too.

I agree with that statement. I've had previous saddles that did not have a cutout that caused numbness within 3 miles of riding. Now that I ride just about every day (as long as the snow isn't too bad) I need to ensure that I have a comfortable saddle. The OEM Bontrager saddle that came on my Garry Fisher Nirvanna is not bad, but on longer rides I can realy feel it. Around 10 to 15 miles my posterior realy feels tha saddle. By the 20th mile I must be going slightly numb because the pain becomes less.

I have also been looking and getting a Brooks, but have been a bit hesitant. My Mom still uses her Brooks 66 that came on her 1960's Raleigh. When I was growing up in The Netherlands that was her only source source of transportation, and was used to ferry my sister and I to and from school, and do all the shopping. The fact that the saddle has lasted this long and is still in excellent working order is a testiment to the quality of the Brooks. A brooks with an anotomical cutout would seem like a perfect solution.

Happy riding,
André

Dear Andrea, PM sent

Interested in testing your new Brooks Imperial. I've ridden Brooks for a number of years (B17) (have a brownie and a blackie) and it's my only long distance saddle I use... I wouldn't leave home without it.
I do have to tilt the nose ever so slightly to relieve pressure....but I haven't had any ill effects to name.
Would love to test this new cut out. I have a full slate of randonneuring events scheduled in the USA.
I start with a 200K March 29th in Ohio a 300K in Kentucky the following week. A 400K and 600K are also
scheduled.
I'm doing a 12hr event on May 3th and a 1200K in Virginia in June... Your seat will get a good workout.
I also commute 14 miles to work...
I can forward you my address if you want...anticipating hearing from you.

Seeing how there have been now 10 replies, it is too late for me :-(... oh well.

As long as I have been cycling, have not ever used a Brooks saddle, and from these forums and others I have been looking into them. Since I usually commute 25km a day, and tour from time to time I have been considering one for quite a while. I have been oscillating between a B17 and Team Pro, but don't know which would fit my style best...

Anyway, if you decide to send one I'm, just across the channel in Brittany!

I'd like to test the Brooks Climax because it's called the Climax. If you need testers for that, I'm in!

i have never owned a brooks before was planing of adding a brooks to my commuter this spring. the reason for the switch is my current nonbrooks saddle causes a lot of numbness pretty quickly. i have heard good thing about brooks and i would be very excited a new saddle with a cutout. pm sent with more details about me.

Hello,

I purchased a B17 Champion but quickly found perineal pressure to be my only problem with this saddle. I've since gotten a Selle An-Atomica as a present and am using that on my main bike.

My problems with saddles in general has been perineal pressure combined with pressure and irritation due to ill-suited to the purpose plastic saddles. I'm a big fan of leather saddles at this point and would be greatly interested in a Brooks saddle with a cut out.

I'm beginning training for a tour of Europe in the summer of 09 so I'll be testing both the Selle An-Atomica and the Brooks Champion (didn't want to give up on such a great saddle so quickly) to see which will be the most comfortable for the long haul. Adding the B17 Imperial to this would be a very good test indeed! I can honestly say that I think a Brooks saddle with cut out would be the best of both the more supportive less stretchy Brooks saddle leather and the pressure relieving cut out.

I'd be very interested to test the B17 Imperial. I've never owned a Brooks, though a randonneuring friend has given it a strong recommendation. Mostly I have been using relatively cheap ($30 Canadian or less) gel seats with cutouts. They do the job, but my communte is only about 8 km a day round trip, plus maybe a couple km more on a typical day.

I'm planning on a serious tour in a couple months' time (down the Pacific Coast Bicycle Trail) and would really like to have a saddle I can count on for that.

--JB

Andrea, is there a .pdf version of the original 1890s catalogue? I would love to read about the history a bit more and especially see what the original cutout saddle looked like!

+1 on the 1890s catalog PDF :)

I'm pretty excited to see that Brooks is looking at rolling out a saddle with a cutout... that shows me that the folks at Brooks actually look at what their customers are doing once they get their hands on the product.

I live in the southeastern USA, and my Brooks saddles are probably the single most important piece of gear that makes it possible for me to ride daily in the brutally hot and humid Georgia summers. As a commuter and longer distance cyclist, I fought chafing, bruising, soreness, and excessive sweat in the shorts until I tried my first Brooks...

I'd love to try out one of these saddles to see how it compares to my trusty B17's. Especially since I have the Bike Ride Across Georgia (BRAG) coming up in June. I always end up preaching "the gospel of Brooks" to all of those riders suffering from saddle sores while I run around without pain!

I love my B-17, but still breaking it in. At times I feel that the top of the saddle digs in a bit more into my crotch. I find myself trying to slide back more into the saddle to relieve the pressure. It's a bit annoying, and would be interesting to see if a cut out would alleviate this problem.

This is wonderful news! I sent you a PM about testing a sample. Last year I had a bout of prostatitis that made any kind of perineal pressure uncomfortable. I was able to ride for an hour or so, but all-day rides were out of the question. I considered ordering a Selle-Anatomica (who makes a Brooks-like leather saddle with a cut-out), but I ended up taking time off the bike while we packed and moved across the country.

I am concerned that this problem will return as my mileage increases over the next several months, so a cut-out saddle is something I am planning to purchase and try out. Outside of those bad months last year, I have always found my B17 to be extremely comfortable. I also ride my wife's bicycle with the sprung version of this saddle, and I have used many other saddles including a leather Lepper Voyager.

If I don't end up being in the test group, I would like to read more technical details so I can figure out how it compares to the Selle-Anatomica.

Sean

Great news I'm looking forward to it...PM sent..

I think one thing to consider might be that the An-Atomica is made of a different sort of leather than the Brooks, softer and more water resistant, but tending to need more tensioning and adjustment.

Do you think that the current leather used on the B-17 would still provide good results? I would like the appeal of not having to tension and tweak the saddle as much, so if so, that might be good.

I think one thing to consider might be that the An-Atomica is made of a different sort of leather than the Brooks, softer and more water resistant, but tending to need more tensioning and adjustment.

Do you think that the current leather used on the B-17 would still provide good results? I would like the appeal of not having to tension and tweak the saddle as much, so if so, that might be good.


The adjustment notion is a good one. While I haven't had to tweak mine yet I see it coming because my B17 already has more flex in it than when new. Right now I can push down on it with my hand and get some flexing outwards of the skirt.

At 200 lbs. and riding every single day at least 36 miles I can't imagine I'm easy on a saddle. It makes me think that the Selle Anatomica would perhaps NOT be a good choice for me, though...

Andrea, what do you think the Imperial would retail for compared to the B17? That is also a consideration...as I said in my first post what got me to buy the B17 was the price...no matter how people complain that Brooks is expensive a B17 is relatively similar in price to comparably good saddles. However, the Selle is WAY too expensive unless it really is just that good. If the Imperial is similar in price I think you'll have a winner even without thorough BF.NET testing and input!

It sounds like a great idea. I love my B-17 and commute on it daily 25 miles rt. I traded a terry cut-out saddle for it. The way the B-17 has molded to my body over the last 2 years makes it a really comfortable saddle, but combining with the cut-out could make for great ride. I've recommended Brooks saddles to many other cyclists and often the response I get has to do with skepticism about their perineum. I think this could bridge the gap to those customers and I would love to find out myself.

These Imperials would be great. When you lace an older saddle, it stiffens the most right where the pressure problem lies. It will also help to get the saddle adjustment perfect from the first time out of the box. On my new Flyer, I had to tilt further back than was comfortable to prevent sliding off the front.

I'd love to try outout this saddle. My LBS owner is very anti-brooks, as he feels technology has made an old leather saddle obsolete. I'm not so sure, as many people seem to love them. he'd probably have a stroke seeing me bring in my new Brodie Romax with Spinergy wheels, Rival brifters, and an "old" leather saddle on it!

PM sent, since you haven't mentioned yet that you're overloaded. I know Brooks saddles are supposed to solve seat problems without a cutout, so this should be interesting to see one way or another.

I'd love to try outout this saddle. My LBS owner is very anti-brooks, as he feels technology has made an old leather saddle obsolete. I'm not so sure, as many people seem to love them. he'd probably have a stroke seeing me bring in my new Brodie Romax with Spinergy wheels, Rival brifters, and an "old" leather saddle on it!


That's funny. I would ask him how he feels about his kitchen table. If he says it works just fine then tell him that's "old" technology, man, been around since before Christ!

So many things we use are the same design and even materials as they have been for centuries. A Brooks is "new" leather, just a tried and true design that came around at the end of the 19th century.

Have him ride one for a few miles, see what he thinks then...

I have had “comfort” problems while cycling long distances and especially on tours. During my last long tour of 5 months I had some serious numbing and tingling in the stem of my penis and other “performance problems” when with a female friend. I have seen leather saddles that were cut out and I wondered where they came from and if they worked. Last year I bought a Serfas RX saddle for my touring bike but it didn’t work for me as I found it uncomfortable and “hot” so I stopped using it and put the Team Pro back on I am wondering if other male riders have had “performance problem” after excessive long distance cycling.

Regards,
Gordon

I have had “comfort” problems while cycling long distances and especially on tours. During my last long tour of 5 months I had some serious numbing and tingling in the stem of my penis and other “performance problems” when with a female friend. I have seen leather saddles that were cut out and I wondered where they came from and if they worked. Last year I bought a Serfas RX saddle for my touring bike but it didn’t work for me as I found it uncomfortable and “hot” so I stopped using it and put the Team Pro back on I am wondering if other male riders have had “performance problem” after excessive long distance cycling.

Regards,
Gordon


Gordon, I have not. However, I am not a serious ultra-long distance rider. I do a few centuries a season, some longer family tours and tons of commuting. I have done some serious time in the saddle on backcountry mountain bike tours (talking 8 hours a day of Colorado singletrack) and will be getting back into that soon enough, but mountain biking forces you out of the saddle much more.

I've only had problems with pain, esp. my sciatica and other nerve related problems. Sometimes I think some of my knee problems are actually saddle related.

I have a friend, Mike Creed, who is a pro rider for TIAA Cref. He has complained about some issues, maybe performance related, but he doesn't use a Brooks of course.

I wonder if there might be better solutions for you than a cutout. It is pretty serious when the pressure on your perineum causes such issues.

PM sent, although it appears you have plenty of volunteers. I have 2 B17s, both barely broken in. Overall they are quite comfortable, although on long rides, periods of extended climbing, and longer trainer sessions I still have issues that a cut out might help with.

PM sent, hope there's still room. I sure miss the Brooks B17 I had years ago on an older Raleigh.

Andrea, is there a .pdf version of the original 1890s catalogue? I would love to read about the history a bit more and especially see what the original cutout saddle looked like!

We have the original 1890 catalogue and it is available as PDF, but I guess it is too heavy to upload on the forum. In the catalogue most of the saddles are with cut out and have different names: CLIMAX, LONG DISTANCE, IMPERIAL, etc.
As the response on this project is big, I will find out how to make this material available to those interested in knowing more.

If it would be easy enough you could e-mail me the catalog. It's no big deal if you don't feel like doing this. I did include my e-mail address in my pm to you.

I find it very intriguing that most of the 1890 catalog saddles had the cutout instead of not. Do you have any insight into why they stopped offering the cutout version?

Thanks Andrea.

Speaking of heavy, how much do each of these saddles weigh?

I'm pretty sure that you'd find lots of volunteers to host the file on the C&V forum. The owner of the RetroRaleighs site, Cudak888 would be a likely suspect.

Feel free to e-mail me the file at bforums AT bikemandan DOT com and I can host it on my site



I'd love to test out a cut out B17 sample too. PM sent.

I have a friend, Mike Creed, who is a pro rider for TIAA Cref. He has complained about some issues, maybe performance related, but he doesn't use a Brooks of course.

I wonder if there might be better solutions for you than a cutout. It is pretty serious when the pressure on your perineum causes such issues.

Hi climbhoser, it was during a 5 month cycling trip that I had serious problems and like others in this post I adjusted my saddle many different ways until it was better but not perfect. I do believe it was the extended period of time in the saddle and the wrong fit of the bike that may have caused the problem. But I still have problems once in a while mainly because I am only riding for short periods of time.

I haven’t toured for long periods of times since and I am worried that it might happen again on my next tour which will be about 3 months. Last summer I started to fine tune my touring bike and so far I have bought a new seat post that has a micro adjuster and tried the Sefras RX saddle.

Gordon

Hi climbhoser, it was during a 5 month cycling trip that I had serious problems and like others in this post I adjusted my saddle many different ways until it was better but not perfect. I do believe it was the extended period of time in the saddle and the wrong fit of the bike that may have caused the problem. But I still have problems once in a while mainly because I am only riding for short periods of time.

I haven’t toured for long periods of times since and I am worried that it might happen again on my next tour which will be about 3 months. Last summer I started to fine tune my touring bike and so far I have bought a new seat post that has a micro adjuster and tried the Sefras RX saddle.

Gordon

Good to hear you're on your way to a solution!

Mike was obviously in the saddle for ridiculous amounts of time, and still is for that matter. I think he's alright, but it makes me wonder how many pro cyclists have issues. I know they say Lance's testicular cancer had nothing to do with cycling, but, again, it makes you wonder, eh?

My sciatica was mostly caused by very, very long backcountry tours on my mountain bike. In highschool and college I would wake up in the summer, get a liesurely start and ride singletrack for a cool 6-8 hours solid, 3-5 days a week. Next thing I know I get weird pains in one leg coming from my back, and my rear feels funny on the left side. Been with me ever since!

The B17 is the best thing I've found for alleviating it. A buddy of mine in the NE has the same problem, and he says a B17 cured him.

Anyhoo, this is a bit of a digression, but I think it'll be interesting to see if a saddle like the Imperial could improve your situation.

Pm sent. I've been wanting to try a Brooks but have been concerned about pressure on the taint, that I've had on other saddles without a cutout when riding longer distances.

I have now put a couple of thousand Km on my B17 commuting and touring, and have found it fantastic on longer rides particularly in the hot Australian summer.

One of the things that is not ideal is that I need to tilt the saddle up a little for a comfortable position, with the result that there is some perineal pressure particularly when leaning forward to get more aero on longer rides.

I've been considering giving the saddle a cutout to see if it helps this problem, otherwise I would try a narrower saddle. I would be keen to test the Imperial saddle to see if it helps this issue with the standard B17.

Lack of a cutout is the main reason I have not tried a Brooks, aside from price. PMing in the event you are still considering candidates.

Speaking of heavy, how much do each of these saddles weigh?

According the Brooks website: A B17 Standard weighs 525g, B17 Special (Champion) weighs 540g. The Titanium rail version weighs in at 410g. The Brooks Swallow and Swift models are a bit lighter, while the heavy duty saddles with the springs weigh a bit more.

So Brooks aren't the lightest saddles in the world, but I don't see that as very important. This is the commuting forum after all! I definitely subscribe to the philosophy that the only cyclists who should be terribly concerned about bicycle weight are racers with very little body fat. Besides, a comfortable saddle is going to help me pedal harder and faster than a lighter saddle that isn't as comfortable.

Sean

According the Brooks website: A B17 Standard weighs 525g, B17 Special (Champion) weighs 540g. The Titanium rail version weighs in at 410g. The Brooks Swallow and Swift models are a bit lighter, while the heavy duty saddles with the springs weigh a bit more.

So Brooks aren't the lightest saddles in the world, but I don't see that as very important. This is the commuting forum after all! I definitely subscribe to the philosophy that the only cyclists who should be terribly concerned about bicycle weight are racers with very little body fat. Besides, a comfortable saddle is going to help me pedal harder and faster than a lighter saddle that isn't as comfortable.

Sean

I'll take 200g over sore riding conditions anyday, this saddle on my Rocky Mountain might be light, but its misery. 200g is very little to suffer when your bike is already 50lbs sans cargo anyways :D

My summer bike has a Brooks B17N, my winter bike has a no-name el-cheapo plastic thingy. Why?

I find I prefer to have Brooks installed with nose tipped upward a bit. It takes some trial and error to find the correct position. A touch too much and I'll certainly feel the pressure down there. Too little, and I slide forward, putting pressure on my hands. I'm very happy the way my summer bike feels now. I have about 9000 kms on Brooks, mostly commuting. That's with two different B17's, as the first one got stolen. :crash:

So I'm all set with the summer bike, but winter bike is tricky. Part of it is just different geometry, but part seems to be related to layered clothing one wears in winter. This bike gets kilometreage only if there's snow/ice on streets (it has Nokian studded tyres permanently on). Usually that means temperatures well below 0C. It feels like several layers of clothing make sliding around on saddle more of an issue. Maybe also the fact I ride platform pedals in winter. I haven't found a comfortable position for Brooks there.

I'd be interested to see if a factory-cut Brooks does a better job. PM sent. If you want to have it tested in real winter conditions, send one to me. Save in postage, too!

--J

Me here! Female touring, mtb and commuter (first and foremost) too. Test subject up for duty sir (slushy/snow duty tonite - ugh)! (PM sent)

My summer bike has a Brooks B17N, my winter bike has a no-name el-cheapo plastic thingy. Why?

I find I prefer to have Brooks installed with nose tipped upward a bit. It takes some trial and error to find the correct position. A touch too much and I'll certainly feel the pressure down there. Too little, and I slide forward, putting pressure on my hands. I'm very happy the way my summer bike feels now. I have about 9000 kms on Brooks, mostly commuting. That's with two different B17's, as the first one got stolen. :crash:

So I'm all set with the summer bike, but winter bike is tricky. Part of it is just different geometry, but part seems to be related to layered clothing one wears in winter. This bike gets kilometreage only if there's snow/ice on streets (it has Nokian studded tyres permanently on). Usually that means temperatures well below 0C. It feels like several layers of clothing make sliding around on saddle more of an issue. Maybe also the fact I ride platform pedals in winter. I haven't found a comfortable position for Brooks there.

I'd be interested to see if a factory-cut Brooks does a better job. PM sent. If you want to have it tested in real winter conditions, send one to me. Save in postage, too!

--J
Interesting. I use B-17 saddles on all my bikes, including my dedicated winter commuter with platform pedals and haven't noticed a single difference in comfort between the winter and summer saddles, although I do know what you mean about sliding a bit when wearing rain trousers as they tend to by made from slick Nylon.

Thanks to everybody for your messages, but please STOP SENDING SAMPLE REQUESTS, as the response to my posts on different secions of the forums was far beyond my expectations, receiving over 200 sample requests in less than 1 day.

It is therefore quite difficult to respond to all of you with a personal message. I apologize for this, but promise that I will ask to craft 30 or 40 samples instead of just 10, so you might have a higher chance to be included in the focus group.

Those who sent me a PM will receive a reply soon, but I beg for your understanding if it is not possible to write a personal response to all of you.

If you still want to share your opinions on this topic, please feel free to do it, and I'll try to read them all. The attached picture shows me on the left (I am a man!) and Eric on the right while crafting the first samples in November 2007. The other image shows one of the pages of the 1890 Brooks cataloge, where the Imperial, Climax, Long Distance and many more saddles with "registered cutting" are featured.

It is great to take part to these forums!

Neat pictures,

Are you going to try different designs of the cut out? The original Long Distance has a serrated cut out and the one in the picture looks oval. Do you think that there might be problems of "sharp" edges? or does the leather on the inside turn down (ie: have a smooth edge)?