Singlespeed & Fixed Gear - wheel slippage

so i finally got a fixie and ditched that beater/pos frame i found. i ended up bagging a khs flite 100 at an insane price. (yay college sponsorships!) but i got a flat tire the other day and have been having one hell of a time getting the rear wheel situated properly in the rear dropouts once again. unfortunately i did not help building the bike up, so i have no idea how they did it fine. i don't know if it was slipping before my flat and messing with the rear wheel since i wasn't trying to skid with my toeclips the first few days. but here is what happens:

i try to properly tension the chain with 1/2" slack when i pull up in the center so it does have some play. however, when i go test ride it outside and skid or hop skip, the wheel always seems to end up turning into the left side of the chainstay and not letting me pedal. i alleviated this by tightening the left side all the way before tightening the right side, however, the wheel still seems to slip forward in the dropouts. i've read various posts with suggestions such as finger tightening and then giving the cranks a few hard spins so the wheel aligns and tightening one side first. i don't know if the stock bolts on the bike are what is causing the axle to slip as i do have them tight in the dropouts. they are track bolts but appear to have serragated washer on them.

any suggestions would be greatly appreciated so i can feel safe on it once again. i am throwing armadillos on it soon so i don't have to deal with this again either. once i get it running again i will put the pictures up. but all i can say is, "jeebus! riding fixed is soooooooo much fun." especially honking my shamu horn on my handlebars. maybe we could get a sticky thread with typical maitenance questions what not? i can't seem to find one in the forum.

you might want to invest in an axle tug (or two). the surly tuggnuts are nice, and as an added bonus they double as bottle openers.

your favorite bike shop should be able to order them for you, they aren't that expensive.

if the axle nuts are tight, they should hold the wheel in place...if the front of the read wheel is going toward the left chainstays, you should make sure that the right bolt is tight enough, as that's the one that's probably slipping. one solution would be to sand all the paint off of the dropout where the bolts go on, then rough them up a little bit.

or just get some cheap-o chain tensioners. surly makes some that have a bottle opener on the back of them. you can get some lollipop/BMX style ones for around $5-$10 i think, or the surly ones for a little more...i have one of the BMX ones that i think i'd be willing to part with for a pretty fair price. i have some older JP machined tensioners that are pretty sick as well, but they're not for sale.

BTW, is it one of the newer, yellow KHS flites? or is it an older, orange flite with the sloping top tube? i still covet the orange one, even though i like my current bikes just fine.

P.S. if you'd like me to give you some pointers or whatever on fixed gear whathaveyou, or if you just wanna go for a ride drop me a PM.

that surly chain tensioner just looks f'in cool. on a sidenote, surly updated their website since they last time i've been there too. i liked the older one more since it was easier to navigate and just don't like all flash websites sometimes. i am going to try tightening the right bolt first this time around and see if that does anything. school is killing me and then my fixie has to poop out. :(

onetinsloth,

i have the newer yellow one, but it came with a black fork instead of the yellow one so i love it. at least my 105 black brake matches now minus the fact i don't have a lever or cable going to it. i'd be totally down to ride sometime after this week. as for fixie tips, i have none yet since i'm a 5 day fixie so far. but i can say, "make sure you can get in and out of your toeclips easily so you don't fall over in the middle of the street."

oh yeah. pictures soon too! i have them on my other computer and just have been bogged down with work.

two words on getting in and out of toeclips easily so you don't fall down in the middle of the street: "TRACK. STANDS."

that is all.

at least it was 12 am and no cars where outside of my house. i was skidding and my rear tire has absolutely no traction and skates all over the place. i can do a half-assed track stand at least. so if you see a shamu horn on a yellow khs fixie, be sure to say "hey, your the guy who can't track stand!"

SHAMU??, if that is you in your avatar, you must get a lot bigger below the neck. :D

hey man, i'm not trying to put you down or nothing...i know lots of kids who can't do them. but they make intersections a lot easier.

onetinsloth,

i meant that sarcastically. i should have used my <sarcastic> tag. hell, teasing me will only make me forget i have to write my research paper and then i'll go practice in the parking lot across the street.


rev. chuck,

nah. that's definitely not me. i'm on the right. they are so strong even the governor can't front.

http://www.brandonchalk.com/images/dland.jpg

yo dude, if you do go out tonight, talk at me on instant messenger! i ain't got **** to do, like, ever.

AIM: onetinsloth.

i just went outside to test my rear wheel again and skidding or any locking up of the rear wheel for that matter seems to f it all up. bleh. but i think i am going to look into chain tensioners if this is a chronic problem. but more likely do to me have zilch for fixie knowledge.

onetinsloth,
i can go "practice" thursday after my soccer game if you want to thrash around campus or something. all i can really do is trackstand for 30 seconds or so and cuss my rear wheel out when it gets out of whack. it's fun to watch at least.

stinkyonions...

you're riding fixed or singlespeed?

chain tensioners are for singlespeeds. i've never heard of a chain tensioner that was designed and built to handle the pressures of reverse pedaling, skidding, skiphopping, etc that you get with a fixed gear. i'd be very wary of putting a tensioner on a fixed gear.

-alex

i am riding fixed. onetinsloth suggested the surly chain tug which looks like it might hold my wheel in place better in the dropouts so it doesnt go forward. i think the dropouts might need to be sanded a bit as also suggested so the nut has something better to grab than paint. i could also just have too much tension in my chain which causes the wheel to slip when i skid and lock the rear wheel up.

my understanding is that a chaintug is just a tensioner for horizontal dropouts... but it's still a tensioner that i'd be wary of using on a fixed gear. maybe i'm just too timid. ;)

first thing i'd do is make sure you have real track nuts (http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/fixed.html#bolts) so they grip properly...

from sheldon's site, it looks like the stock nuts on the khs are track nuts but with a serrated attached washer. but it seems like a serrated edge against the frame would have better grip rather than just a straight flat washer. i am probably wrong though. does anyone happen to know of a good picture or diagram showing proper chain tension? the best page i have found yet is:http://www.parktool.com/repair_help/chaintension.shtml. i think i will just probably not do skids or any harsh backpedaling on it for the next few days and then swings buy a store on friday to check it out better. i would really like to start a comprehensive sticky thread if enough people can contribute to help maintain basic newbie questions like the one's i am asking.

i think that park tutorial is tensioning for ss freewheel & coaster-brake bikes. i don't know of anything with pics, but i think if you follow that guide you're going to end up with too much slack.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/fixed.html#tension
http://www.63xc.com/wakem/wakedriv.htm

i found one guide to riding fixed (http://www.63xc.com/mikeb/mikeb.htm) seems to suggest that using chain tugs on a fix is no big deal. anyone skidded/skiphopped on a bike with tugs? any problems?

hth,
alex

stinkyonions:
i can give you some mechanical help, as i'm pretty handy with a wrench, and have been working on my own fixies for a few years now....i also have a USA Cycling Mechanics' liscence...and i'll do it for free!

i think flat washers are a little better just because there is more surface to surface contact between the dropout and the nut. i've used both and never really had any problems with either though. the key is to just really tighten them down, not just snug, but TIGHT.

i've never had any problems with using chain tensioners (the axle kind) and i've used them off and on since i started riding, and i know tons of kids who use them. they have a screw that tightens against the dropout and basically holds the wheel in place. the heavier duty ones have thicker threads so they're a little sturdier, but even the ones with thinner threads still hold up...as long as the axle nuts are tight they will hold.

chain tension is tricky, and different people like different amounts. the way i set up my bikes is i have the chain tight enough so there is no flop over bumps, but not tight enough so that it slows my rear wheel down. it takes a while to figure out just how much you like, and you should spend some time riding it around (duh) to really get in tune with the bike.

it's unavoidable that there will be tight spots and loose spots in the chain, so i try to make sure to find the tightest spot on the chain, and make that my starting point for tensioning. i usually tighten the non-drive side nut, then push or pull the rim toward the drive side then tighten the drive side nut, then loosen the non-drive nut and straighten out the wheel. repeat if necessary.

also, (this may seem obvious to everyone but,) NEVER, EVER put your fingers (or any other body part) anywhere NEAR the sprocket or cog while the chain is in motion, or when someone else is working on the bike, because you never know if that person is going to either move the bike or spin the cranks suddenly. IF YOU GET A BODY PART STUCK IN THERE, IT WILL BE SEVERED!!!

also, roll up your pant legs and tuck in your shoe laces while riding, so they don't get sucked in.

Get yourself a pai of tracknuts, and torque the bejeezus out of them! And get used to the problems of tightening them straight-they are all like that.

My original fixed wheels are quick release (and sewups), they went thru my learning period and I skipped, often unintentionally, all the time. They never loosened, so you should be able to get them tight. Now I run flat washers and nuts with no troubles.
When I tension a chain, I hold the wheel at the BB and push against the BB with my thumb while holding the wheel between my fingers and palm. This way I can keep the chain tight and wheel centered. I snug the nuts up gradually, swapping back and forth to keep them from trying to turn the axle.

stinkyonions:
IF YOU GET A BODY PART STUCK IN THERE, IT WILL BE SEVERED!!!

also, roll up your pant legs and tuck in your shoe laces while riding, so they don't get sucked in.

Learned that one the hard way I did, but I managed to get away with a crushed thumbnail. Honestly, OneTin, you're creeping me out! I'm going to have the heebee jeebees all week now on my fixie.

BK

As far as the tensioners or whatever you want to call them, the ones for fixies are not the same as the ones that push on the chain with a little cog. These ones just keep the wheel pulled back, no problem using them on fixed..

As the others said, tighten those nuts. The drive side one is the important one to get tight. A rule of thumb I use is that if the wheel is pulling forward then they aren't tight enough. :D

-Jason

well, i *think* i have them tight enough. i know the ganky adjustable wrench we have here is broken now since i torqued them so good the adjustor wheel had bits break of. i will be swinging by the lbs and using loaner tools on friday to try once again with all the new suggestions. right now i get to worry about my paper that is 11 pages and needs to be 10 pages.

school < * < riding fixed (all the math a humanities major needs to know)

get yerself a 15mm peanut butter wrench. shouldn't be more than 15 bucks at your lbs.

Just go to the bottom of the tenth page and write "... The End"

in honor of rev. chuck.

THA END!

i'm posting pictures in the picture thread in a few.