VC is just natural

[RobertHurst]

Anyway to what Robert wrote about it (either 90deg turn or right and U-turn) perhaps being faster, not in my experience unless one is lucky that the light changes just as you arrive, one needs to wait for the next light cycle.

Merging across lanes of faster traffic is no faster or slower than if there was no traffic, as long as one starts the merge early enough so as not to run out of road length before the turn. I never slow down when making vehicular lefts, if anything sometimes I speed up.




It's not the merging that's necessarily slow, but the turning. If there's really that much traffic, that means the oncoming lanes are packed too. Which means no left turns until at least the yellow,or more llikely, waiting til the green arrow comes around again on the cycle. In contqast, the lowly two-point turner only waits for a half a cycle, if that.

I don't advise people to turn right and do a u-turn across what four? six? lanes of traffic to save a little time. That's an ugly maneuver.

Robert

[noisebeam]

Understood Robert. On the streets I most commonly make left turns this hasn't been a problem finding a small gap to make a left turn across or going on yellow after opposing traffic is clearly stopping.
Al

[genec]

Pointing out there are exceptions with short sight lines does not refute my assertion that good sight lines are the norm. That these special stoplights are "special" and thus not the norm makes my point. Would you be so kind as to concede this point, or explain why not?



But these exceptions exist in a number of places... and increasing the road speed does NOT help, and in fact tends to make these roads less bicycle friendly...

Which is why I am such a stickler for the speed issues...

[genec]

If motorists are ignoring your signals, you need to work on your signals. Whenever I signal either the first or second car yields almost always. Rarely do I have to wait for the 3rd. I don't think I've ever been ignored by 3 drivers in a row.

Remember, they are not obligated to yield to you - they have the right of way - so what you're doing is asking them to yield to you so that you can merge left. It's surprising how important it is to make sure you're not doing a lame signal, but a firm/confident signal: hold your left arm straight out parallel to the ground (make sure it's not tilted down towards the ground at all), open hand, palm forward (the back of your hand should be facing the traffic behind you), fingers stretched out straight and pressed together, thumb up (or pressed down - I haven't discerned a difference either way). Practice that right now at your desk.

Put your left hand on your heart like it's time to do the pledge. The way you have shaped your hand is how it should be when signaling.




Ah yes... the old "since Serge can do it, every one else must be wrong" lecture.

:rolleyes:

[Allister]

Ah yes... the old "since Serge can do it, every one else must be wrong" lecture.

:rolleyes:

At least he wasn't patronising.

[Helmet Head]

It's not the merging that's necessarily slow, but the turning. If there's really that much traffic, that means the oncoming lanes are packed too. Which means no left turns until at least the yellow,or more llikely, waiting til the green arrow comes around again on the cycle. In contqast, the lowly two-point turner only waits for a half a cycle, if that.

I don't advise people to turn right and do a u-turn across what four? six? lanes of traffic to save a little time. That's an ugly maneuver.

Robert
Where I occasionally do the right/U the street I turn right on has only two lanes in my direction that quickly turns to one, and usually has no traffic besides me moving away from the intersection. There may be two lanes of 0-6 cars in each of the lanes on the other side, so I go until I pass them, then U and get behind them. It's simple and elegant.

[Helmet Head]

Ah yes... the old "since HH can do it, every one else must be wrong" lecture.

:rolleyes:
I'm just telling you what works for me without exception. If you have an explanation for why it works for me without exception and doesn't work for you, other than you're doing something differently that you don't think is significant but is, then please let me know.

[randya]

At least he wasn't patronising.

:roflmao:

If you don't do it exactly like Serge, you must be wrong

[Helmet Head]

But these exceptions exist in a number of places... and increasing the road speed does NOT help, and in fact tends to make these roads less bicycle friendly...

Which is why I am such a stickler for the speed issues...
Yes, these EXCEPTIONS exist in a number of places, which supports my point that they are not THE NORM, but are EXCEPTIONS.

Why are you objecting to my claim that THE NORM is good sight lines?

[Helmet Head]

:roflmao:

If you don't do it exactly like HH, you must be wrong
You guys are the ones thinking in terms of right and wrong.

I'm thinking in terms of what works and what doesn't.

I don't know what Gene is doing, but apparently it doesn't work.
I know what I'm doing, and I know it works.
So I offer in detail what I do that works.
Why you would think that that implies doing it exactly like that is required to not be wrong is beyond me. It's just not logical.
There may be other equally or even more effective techniques. All I'm doing is describing in detail the one technique that I happen to know works.

[Bekologist]

ABUNDANTLY proving the point that


VC ISN'T NATURAL!!!!

Thanks, head!!!!! :roflmao:

[randya]

If motorists are ignoring your signals, you need to work on your signals....It's surprising how important it is to make sure you're not doing a lame signal, but a firm/confident signal: hold your left arm straight out parallel to the ground (make sure it's not tilted down towards the ground at all), open hand, palm forward (the back of your hand should be facing the traffic behind you), fingers stretched out straight and pressed together, thumb up (or pressed down - I haven't discerned a difference either way). Practice that right now at your desk.

Put your left hand on your heart like it's time to do the pledge. The way you have shaped your hand is how it should be when signaling.

Why you would think that that implies doing it exactly like that is required to not be wrong is beyond me.

:rolleyes:

:roflmao:

[RobertHurst]

Where I occasionally do the right/U the street I turn right on has only two lanes in my direction that quickly turns to one, and usually has no traffic besides me moving away from the intersection. There may be two lanes of 0-6 cars in each of the lanes on the other side, so I go until I pass them, then U and get behind them. It's simple and elegant.

Maybe, under ideal conditions. The thing about this ponderous maneuver is it's easily thwarted by a variety of changing circumstances. Cars dive around the turn behind you, or other cyclists, complicating or delaying your u-turn. More possible points of conflict and collision arise if other oncoming vehicles arrive inconveniently, blocking your intended path and lengthening the line at the light, suddenly you're having to ride halfway down the block in order to make your u-turn, then when you begin to turn a parked car accelerates away from the opposite curb, its driver fixated only on the rear view mirror and responding to the same gap. Etc. Best laid plans of mice and men. Of course I'm sure you'll tell us you would 'never' do that, that you exhibit perfect vision and anticipation that would allow you to always avoid these complications.

I can't tell you how many times I've pulled up to a light and watched another rider try the right turn/u-turn move while I just sat there. Rarely do they gain any notable advantage, and often they are observed floundering and messing up the program to complete a move that is at best quasi-legal and finally yields no advantage whatsoever, except giving them extra mileage to ride. Elegant is not the word I would use. It is unlikely to be the best option available and certainly unlikely to cause feelings of vehicular brotherhood to rain down upon someone observed doing it.

Robert

[genec]

You guys are the ones thinking in terms of right and wrong.

I'm thinking in terms of what works and what doesn't.

I don't know what Gene is doing, but apparently it doesn't work.
I know what I'm doing, and I know it works.
So I offer in detail what I do that works.
Why you would think that that implies doing it exactly like that is required to not be wrong is beyond me. It's just not logical.
There may be other equally or even more effective techniques. All I'm doing is describing in detail the one technique that I happen to know works.

Of course it never occurs to you that something as simple as speed differential may be the reason that it works or doesn't work...

It doesn't occur to you that perhaps the traffic pattern where I am commuting is slightly different from the ones you face (different light cycles, different traffic density)

It doesn't occur to you that perhaps sight lines (which you acknowledge might just have "exceptions" to your "good sight lines are the norm.")...

Nope... blame the cyclist. Typical. :rolleyes:

[noisebeam]

Maybe, under ideal conditions. The thing about this ponderous maneuver is it's easily thwarted by a variety of changing circumstances. Cars dive around the turn behind you, or other cyclists, complicating or delaying your u-turn. More possible points of conflict and collision arise if other oncoming vehicles arrive inconveniently, blocking your intended path and lengthening the line at the light, suddenly you're having to ride halfway down the block in order to make your u-turn, then when you begin to turn a parked car accelerates away from the opposite curb, its driver fixated only on the rear view mirror and responding to the same gap. Etc. Best laid plans of mice and men. Of course I'm sure you'll tell us you would 'never' do that, that you exhibit perfect vision and anticipation that would allow you to always avoid these complications.

I can't tell you how many times I've pulled up to a light and watched another rider try the right turn/u-turn move while I just sat there. Rarely do they gain any notable advantage, and often they are observed floundering and messing up the program to complete a move that is at best quasi-legal and finally yields no advantage whatsoever, except giving them extra mileage to ride. Elegant is not the word I would use. It is unlikely to be the best option available and certainly unlikely to cause feelings of vehicular brotherhood to rain down upon someone observed doing it.

Robert
I agree which is why I so rarely use this turning method. But sometimes it just works fine to do so. For example the last time I did I make a late decision to left turn long after it would have been necessary to begin merging left.
But it is vehicular and not restricted to specific types of vehicles. I've ridden in Taxis in California, Massachusetts and Penang that used this maneuver to avoid having to merge across several lanes of traffic.
It is much preferred to me over the even more awkward so called, but not accurately "pedestrian left turn"
Al

[Helmet Head]

Of course it never occurs to you that something as simple as speed differential may be the reason that it works or doesn't work...

It doesn't occur to you that perhaps the traffic pattern where I am commuting is slightly different from the ones you face (different light cycles, different traffic density)

It doesn't occur to you that perhaps sight lines (which you acknowledge might just have "exceptions" to your "good sight lines are the norm.")...

Nope... blame the cyclist. Typical. :rolleyes:
Of course it's possible that you regularly encounter situations where negotiation is impossible due to speed differentials and particular traffic patterns while I don't ever even though we only live and work a few miles from each other, but it's not very likely. I like to rule out more likely explanations before I jump to a far-fetched conclusion, don't you?

In this case, since I've discovered what a significant difference making subtle and seemingly insignificant changes in how I communicate my desire to merge left when initiating, and during, a negotiation-merge can have on my ability to coax motorists into yielding to me, pardon me for thinking that a difference in how we communicate our desires to merge left is a much more likely explanation.

Once again, please identify the street and intersection at which you regularly are unable to negotiate a left-merge due to high speed differentials and the unwillingness of motorists in that traffic to yield to you.

I would like to add that you have repeatedly made clear that you believe high speed differentials can make negotiation impossible. That, my friend, is the epitome of a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[Helmet Head]

Maybe, under ideal conditions. The thing about this ponderous maneuver is it's easily thwarted by a variety of changing circumstances. Cars dive around the turn behind you, or other cyclists, complicating or delaying your u-turn. More possible points of conflict and collision arise if other oncoming vehicles arrive inconveniently, blocking your intended path and lengthening the line at the light, suddenly you're having to ride halfway down the block in order to make your u-turn, then when you begin to turn a parked car accelerates away from the opposite curb, its driver fixated only on the rear view mirror and responding to the same gap. Etc. Best laid plans of mice and men. Of course I'm sure you'll tell us you would 'never' do that, that you exhibit perfect vision and anticipation that would allow you to always avoid these complications.

I can't tell you how many times I've pulled up to a light and watched another rider try the right turn/u-turn move while I just sat there. Rarely do they gain any notable advantage, and often they are observed floundering and messing up the program to complete a move that is at best quasi-legal and finally yields no advantage whatsoever, except giving them extra mileage to ride. Elegant is not the word I would use. It is unlikely to be the best option available and certainly unlikely to cause feelings of vehicular brotherhood to rain down upon someone observed doing it.

Robert
I think this is one of those situations where each of us is envisioning something significantly different from what the other is envisioning, but each of us is writing and reading with our own perception in mind. So with respect to what you are envisioning, what I'm saying doesn't make sense and what you're saying does make sense, and vice versa with respect to the intersection/situation I'm envisioning.

Anyway, suffice to say that I use the turn/U technique very rarely, but I never use the so-called pedestrian left turn that requires the awkward 90 degree adjustment of the bike after you cross the street.

[noisebeam]

I think this is one of those situations where each of us is envisioning something significantly different from what the other is envisioning, but each of us is writing and reading with our own perception in mind. So with respect to what you are envisioning, what I'm saying doesn't make sense and what you're saying does make sense, and vice versa with respect to the intersection/situation I'm envisioning.

Anyway, suffice to say that I use the turn/U technique very rarely, but I never use the so-called pedestrian left turn that requires the awkward 90 degree adjustment of the bike after you cross the street.

Yep, there are many variations of the intersection to consider.
Is it a multi lane arterial crossing a single lane residential? Or the reverse? Or two arterials?
Is there a physical median/barrier to prevent timely U-turn?
What is the intersection control? Traffic light or stop signs for thru or cross street?

Like you: Very rarely RT/U-turn, never ped90deg.

Al

[Bekologist]

none of this is related to the original post. chestbeating about your so called traffic skills AGAIN, helmet head? :rolleyes: Needing strokes you can ride with traffic AGAIN, Al?

you are both ABUNDANTLY PROVING VC ISN'T NATURAL!!!

:roflmao:

[Bekologist]

I would like to add that you have repeatedly made clear that you believe high speed differentials can make negotiation impossible.

and I would like to add that john forestor also thinks high speed differentials makes negotiation impossible -what was it, page 311?

bwuahahaha.

[noisebeam]

Actually Bek the majority of my vehicular left turns require no negotiation or merging with other traffic.

Al

[Bekologist]

Yippee!!

:rolleyes:

*sending Al strokes for his abilities and skills riding in traffic*

Al, like the OP, you also like to complain about how no one else you see rides vehicularily enough and are always pulling boneheaded rider stunts- you post videos in Utube about your commute, don't you? And are derisive of those 'other'cyclists you see too far right, etc......


It's funny, for the OP 90 percent of the people aren't natural, and for head, even a guy like genec, - who's had multiple class instruction in EC, isn't doing it right! :roflmao:

[RobertHurst]

Anyway, suffice to say that I use the turn/U technique very rarely, but I never use the so-called pedestrian left turn that requires the awkward 90 degree adjustment of the bike after you cross the street.

The 90-degree 'adjustment' is almost always far less awkward than the 180-degree adjustment, down the block, across traffic. Don't kid yourself.

Robert

[genec]

Of course it's possible that you regularly encounter situations where negotiation is impossible due to speed differentials and particular traffic patterns while I don't ever even though we only live and work a few miles from each other, but it's not very likely. I like to rule out more likely explanations before I jump to a far-fetched conclusion, don't you?

In this case, since I've discovered what a significant difference making subtle and seemingly insignificant changes in how I communicate my desire to merge left when initiating, and during, a negotiation-merge can have on my ability to coax motorists into yielding to me, pardon me for thinking that a difference in how we communicate our desires to merge left is a much more likely explanation.

Once again, please identify the street and intersection at which you regularly are unable to negotiate a left-merge due to high speed differentials and the unwillingness of motorists in that traffic to yield to you.

I would like to add that you have repeatedly made clear that you believe high speed differentials can make negotiation impossible. That, my friend, is the epitome of a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Of course differences occur, in spite of nearly identical locations... that alone is evident on the freeways... where the 5/805 junction is often impacted at rush hour, yet other sections of hiway just a few miles away can be quite open... even across the lane, in the other direction, can be vastly different... location does not guarantee "similarity".

Time factor also can mean huge difference... the same road on Saturday for instance is nearly empty... yet 4:45 on a Friday it can be a parking lot.

Regarding high speed differentials... well let's recall the quoted words of John Forester... (chapter and verse) surely he must have noticed "something" similar too... I am not after all pulling this out of my *$$... Others have obviously noticed it too... so much for your self fulfilling prophecy.

[genec]

Once again, please identify the street and intersection at which you regularly are unable to negotiate a left-merge due to high speed differentials and the unwillingness of motorists in that traffic to yield to you.



Two locations at which this occurs... the top of Nobel at Luna, moving south making a left onto Luna.

Top of Genesee at Decoro, making a left at Decoro while heading west.

Always at rush hour. Not "parking lot conditions" but when it is crowded and moving fast. (parking lot conditions" are actually easy to handle)

about 50% of the time in either location it can be quite difficult to make that left.

[nun]

I saw a fantastic bit of non VC cycling today at a busy junction where 4 lanes split into 2x2 lanes.
A cyclist was far to the left and went to the front of the line. He was going straight, ran the red light
just as it was turning green and got caught crossing the cars in the lanes that were turning right. Of course lots of car horns etc. He got across the lanes, but now found himself in the far left of the outside lane
of the cars going straight. He wobbled and stopped in the middle of the road with cars passing him
in both directions. Eventually he made it across the the right of the lanes, but it was scary. I use VC to navigate this junction regularly and as I position myself correctly going into the junction and merge with traffic I come out of it on the right hand side.

VC may not be natural, but it is sensible and safe

[Bekologist]

those miscreant cyclists!!! :roflmao:

giving you such trouble out on the roads, nun......

[Helmet Head]

Two locations at which this occurs... the top of Nobel at Luna, moving south making a left onto Luna.

Top of Genesee at Decoro, making a left at Decoro while heading west.

Always at rush hour. Not "parking lot conditions" but when it is crowded and moving fast. (parking lot conditions" are actually easy to handle)

about 50% of the time in either location it can be quite difficult to make that left.
When you say "Nobel at Luna" (???), I assume you mean "S/B Regents Rd turning left onto Luna", which is the intersection I've been assuming you're thinking of, because you've mentioned it before. The trick there is to move left early, while still on the long/straight climb with long/clear sight lines, before you get to the blind curve. Offhand I can't recall if the leftmost lane is wide enough to be safely shared if you ride next to the median, or whether you have to control it up the remainder of the climb and through the curve, which is what I have to do (control the leftmost lane while climbing amongst high speed traffic) to turn left onto Torrey Pines Rd. from w/b La Jolla Village Drive.

I know the left onto Decoro from Genesee better. The problem there is that the solid bike lane stripe goes dashed at a point where you should already be in the left turn lane, and the time to start negotiating is about where the wide median narrows to make room for the right only lanes, perhaps a few seconds before reaching that point.

In both cases you only have to get across two lanes. One of these days I'm going to rig my bike with video equipment so that I can film these techniques.

[Bekologist]

all this discussion on learning how to correctly negotiate a road with only two lanes further reiterates the reality that


"VC isn't natural.

[Bekologist]

oh, al, i didn't mean in this thread, i meant generally. we all have our MO in bike forums, with the original poster its complaining about the non-vehicularity of all the miscreant cyclists.

It seems you are always, consistently, posting videos of your (very ho-hum) commute and griping about how other bicyclists don't ride correctly when you observe them. Maybe it's my impression. you post A LOT of videos to try to prove some 'vehicular best practices' or something.

the more you guys attempt to explain all the nuances about HOW to ride certain scenarios proves the point that VC ISN'T NATURAL! I'm getting a big chuckle about that

[Helmet Head]

Al, you don't post any videos here, much less "A LOT" of videos.
You post links to videos that are posted on youtube, and members are free to click on them or not.

[Helmet Head]

oh, al, i didn't mean in this thread, i meant generally. we all have our MO in bike forums, with the original poster its complaining about the non-vehicularity of all the miscreant cyclists.

It seems you are always, consistently, posting videos of your (very ho-hum) commute and griping about how other bicyclists don't ride correctly when you observe them. Maybe it's my impression. you post A LOT of videos to try to prove some 'vehicular best practices' or something.

the more you guys attempt to explain all the nuances about HOW to ride certain scenarios proves the point that VC ISN'T NATURAL! I'm getting a big chuckle about that
Perhaps this personal banter would best be handled by PM?
Yes, I know I engage in this type of stuff too, and am arguably right now.
My question stands.

[Bekologist]

whatever.


it's all anxillary to the conversation anyway. shame on you boys for consistently steering threads off topic- isn't that a violation of the forum guidelines, helemt ehead?? ;)

this thread is about if vc is natural. prattling on for PAGES about your techniques which are purportedly superior to others is off topic, and a violation of forum guidelines.

just stay on topic, eh?

[noisebeam]

this thread is about if vc is natural. prattling on for PAGES about your techniques which are purportedly superior to others is off topic, and a violation of forum guidelines.

just stay on topic, eh?

On topic would just be a Yes or No.
Additional words are needed to explain and that explanation may require discussions of how and why.

What do you envision as on topic discussion in this thread?

[Bekologist]

vc isn't natural. helemth head, al, and the original poster have abundantly proven it.

[genec]

When you say "Nobel at Luna" (???), I assume you mean "S/B Regents Rd turning left onto Luna", which is the intersection I've been assuming you're thinking of, because you've mentioned it before. The trick there is to move left early, while still on the long/straight climb with long/clear sight lines, before you get to the blind curve. Offhand I can't recall if the leftmost lane is wide enough to be safely shared if you ride next to the median, or whether you have to control it up the remainder of the climb and through the curve, which is what I have to do (control the leftmost lane while climbing amongst high speed traffic) to turn left onto Torrey Pines Rd. from w/b La Jolla Village Drive.

I know the left onto Decoro from Genesee better. The problem there is that the solid bike lane stripe goes dashed at a point where you should already be in the left turn lane, and the time to start negotiating is about where the wide median narrows to make room for the right only lanes, perhaps a few seconds before reaching that point.

In both cases you only have to get across two lanes. One of these days I'm going to rig my bike with video equipment so that I can film these techniques.

Regents... yeah that is the spot. (Regents... Nobel... you know, all college stuff... ;) ) About half the time there is no traffic there... the other half is when the lights are just right and it is full of traffic that I cannot see approaching until I am well left. So on approach, I look back, see no traffic, but as I am trying to cross... a wave of 50+MPH motorists will suddenly show up and they can't see me either until the last minute. The street actually has a 35MPH marking back about a 1/4 mile for motorists to slow down prior to actually getting to the corner... Not that any motorist heeds that. So in reality the traffic engineers recognize the problem, but drivers do not.

Decoro is also quite similar, but here the issue is steady heavy traffic, that just doesn't see me until it is too late for them to decide to give way to my request for a turn... so often they just ignore it... so I end up usually doing a quick U on Decoro. (BTW the dashed part of the BL hardly matters... I move to the left when I can, although I want to be reasonable about it and not move too much before the LTL. And FYI I take Decoro to avoid the huge collection of driveways at UTC and the financial towers... where far too many motorists are on the phone instead of the driver's seat.

My point in both these cases is that speed and density is the issue... as I am moving at about 8 MPH, drivers are moving at 50MPH+. My other point is that while I can cite these two examples, I am sure others exist all over this town... thus are hardly "exceptions."

Other areas with long sight lines and 50MPH traffic are no problem. I can cross Del Mar Heights with a glance and quick signal, and get all three lanes... It is not technique that is the issue. It is the particular circumstances.

[Helmet Head]

Regents... yeah that is the spot. (Regents... Nobel... you know, all college stuff... ;) ) About half the time there is no traffic there... the other half is when the lights are just right and it is full of traffic that I cannot see approaching until I am well left. So on approach, I look back, see no traffic, but as I am trying to cross... a wave of 50+MPH motorists will suddenly show up and they can't see me either until the last minute. The street actually has a 35MPH marking back about a 1/4 mile for motorists to slow down prior to actually getting to the corner... Not that any motorist heeds that. So in reality the traffic engineers recognize the problem, but drivers do not.

The bolded part above makes it sound to me like you don't start moving left until you're into the blind curve. I think the trick there is to be all the way left in the leftmost lane before you get to the blind curve. Yes, that means being all the way over left well before there is a left turn only lane. If I can find the video clip of Dan and Brian moving left two blocks before their left turn on a high speed arterial, I'll post the link.

[Bekologist]

can you people PLEASE KEEP IT ON TOPIC!!!!

Repeated steering of threads off topic is in violation of forum guidelines.

Head. Heed your own advice and follow the forum guidelines.

[Helmet Head]

can you people PLEASE KEEP IT ON TOPIC!!!!

Repeated steering of threads off topic is in violation of forum guidelines.

Head. Heed your own advice and follow the forum guidelines.
I think there is consensus that at least in a culture where VC is not predominant, for most people VC is not "natural", but that once you learn it, it does feel natural (and unnatural to not ride that way).

To me it's like using chopsticks - which did not feel natural when I was learning, but now it would feel unnatural to eat kung pau chicken with a fork.

I'm not sure what else there is to say on the topic, Bek, so naturally tangents have developed. There is no intent, at least not on my part, to use these side discussions to disrupt the topic or steer the discussion away from the focus of this forum. By the way, not to imply anything in particular, but disingenuous accusations of disruptive behavior are arguably disruptive and contrary to the guidelines themselves.

Anyway, one of the most challenging aspects of vc is the vehicular left turn in high/speed busy traffic that Gene and I have been discussing. Even the guru himself says it's "impossible" to use negotiation in such conditions due to the high speed differentials. But, again, now that I've learned how to do it safely and comfortably, it feels natural to me. Just like using chopsticks to eat hot braised green beans feels natural to me.

[Bekologist]

Head, you are describing learned behaviors. not natural techniques. give it a rest, eh?


Repeated steering of threads off topic with discussions of YOUR riding techniques being superior to others is OFF TOPIC and A VIOLATION OF FORUM GUIDELINES.

[Helmet Head]

Head, you are describing learned behaviors. not natural techniques. give it a rest, eh?


Repeated steering of threads off topic with discussions of YOUR riding techniques being superior to others is OFF TOPIC and A VIOLATION OF FORUM GUIDELINES.
By that criteria, riding a bike, swimming, using forks and chopsticks, and arguably even walking (I know someone who hadn't learned to walk at age 4 yet because she was in a Russian orphanage and still crawling at that age) are learned behaviors too, not natural techniques like blinking, suckling, crying, crawling and eating with your hands. So what?

What topic do you want to discuss in this thread? Here's the OP:

I only heard of John Forester recently and read about VC, but I realize that its how I've been riding a bike since I was 10 years old. It seems a perfectly sensible, safe and natural way to ride. Maybe that's because in 1970 I took the UK's Cycling Proficiency Test which emphasized following the Highway Code as a bike is a vehicle on the road and lane positioning strategies similar to VC.

Okay, so to a guy who grew up in the UK VC seems natural, and 16 (70%) of the 23 poll respondents say VC comes naturally to them. What is there to say?

[Bekologist]

so, riding VC is a learned behavior, not a natural one? very well, conceded.

but some of respondents in bike forums (NOT the op, who now realizes VC ISN'T natural) think it's natural.

but head, you do not. you think you need to learn it, and somehow Gene hasn't learned how to do it correctly.

you disprove the point you are trying to make- vc is not natural, it is a learned technique that demands nuance to execute properly.

[Helmet Head]

Beck, I'll be happy to discuss this with you as long as you define what you think "natural" means in the context of the issue here. For example, please identifywhich of the following you consider natural in the sense that you think VC isn't natural.

blinking
crawling
walking
adding
multiplying
calculus
riding a bike
popping a wheelie
riding a wheelie
driving a car
driving a car in traffic
riding a motorcycle in traffic
swimming
talking
writing
watching TV
using chop sticks
using turn signals
Also, why does it matter to you whether VC is "natural" or not? What difference does the answer to that question make?

[Bekologist]

what a waste of time.

vc ain't natural if even trained cyclists aren't doing it properly, according to head.

The original poster has realized that perhaps his original assertion was incorrect: perhpas for nun, since 90 percent of the bicyclists aren't doing it properly, it's hardly natural.

but head is right, once you learn a technique, and repeat things enough times, over and over again, things start to seem 'natural.' :roflmao:

[noisebeam]

The rules of the road generally come from natural behaviors, so following them is natural

[Bekologist]

why does red mean stop in a light but only caution on a triangular sign, but a red octagonal sign is different still?

what is the natural side of the road to ride on?

what does a flashing arrow mean, and is it naturally discernable from a solid lit arrow? what is the difference if the arrow is yellow or green? and how natural are those hand signals to 'naturally' signal slowing and turns?

HARDLY natural behavior. learned, controlled environment with a series of regiment and rules developed over decades of group, proletariat era road movements.

[noisebeam]

You are now bringing up cultural conventions and symbols and the process of learning them.

What I mean is it is natural for a society to develop a convention for which side of the pathway to travel on. Learning which side is done thru either education or more likely observation and experience.

It is natural to destination position as well. When I watch folks walking in crowded areas they go to the right side of the walkway before turning right and the left before turning left.

Same with the symbols, signs and their meanings. It is natural to slow and look before crossing another road. It is natural to slow less if the path you are crossing more minor than the one you are on or is not busy. It is natural to nearly stop if the path you are crossing is major to the one being traveled on and busy. Adding signs and symbols clarifies the natural behavior and assists with codifying it.

Al

[Bekologist]

following the conventions of a transportation network does not denote natural behavior, it is learned behavior.

oh, in herd animals, ants, and termites, faster moving 'traffic' is generally to the outsides of the group, al, with more vulnerable and slower moving individuals at the inside.

what's natural again? traffic cycling sure isn't.

[nun]

what a waste of time.

vc ain't natural if even trained cyclists aren't doing it properly, according to head.

The original poster has realized that perhaps his original assertion was incorrect: perhpas for nun, since 90 percent of the bicyclists aren't doing it properly, it's hardly natural.

but head is right, once you learn a technique, and repeat things enough times, over and over again, things start to seem 'natural.' :roflmao:

I think this sums it up quite well, VC seems natural to me as I learned it so long ago that I can't remember riding a bike any other way, heck I never even knew I was doing VC until I stumbled on this forum.

Still the real question should be is VC the best learned way to ride a bike. I'd say yes, I won't wait around for the replies. I have a life to lead and a bike to ride.....VC of course!!

[genec]

I think this sums it up quite well, VC seems natural to me as I learned it so long ago that I can't remember riding a bike any other way, heck I never even knew I was doing VC until I stumbled on this forum.

Still the real question should be is VC the best learned way to ride a bike. I'd say yes, I won't wait around for the replies. I have a life to lead and a bike to ride.....VC of course!!

The thing is that while riding to the right and watching for other traffic is somewhat natural (as Bek pointed out "riding to the outside of the herd..." ), the other conventions that seem to be attached to the VC political agenda are well beyond "natural."

For instance other animals in nature seek quiet paths... yet there are those here of "the VC herd" that somehow seek the company of large fast moving behemoths.