Classic & Vintage - Quality: how different between Italian vs. Japanese

I'm just curious. I'm new to this vintage stuff - I got hooked on the look of lugged steel, and can't reasonably lay out the cash required for a good condition, ride as is Italian bike. Hence, ended up buying a NOS Miyata off ebay for $400 - Shimano 600 groupo all around, Miyata triple spline tubing and best of all, never ridden by anyone...except maybe test rides from 16 years ago.

Anyway, I also see Colnagos in much worse shape easily go for $1k+, or the really nice ones, close to $2k. I love the look and paint job of Colnagos and I saw a beautiful Tommasini. But the prices are much higher. Even Bianchi frames will go for more than, say a Bridgestone or a Miyata. So...in reality, how different are they? Is there such a huge gap in quality of tubing/workmanship, etc., or is it just the country of origin? And, will there actually be a difference in ride?

My top line Japanese bike is my Nishiki Continental.
The lug work is very good but it is still below my Marinoni.
I can't compare the rides as they are two completely different use bikes.
Here is the lug work.

Nishiki
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b400/fj40/DSC01706.jpg

Marinoni. Notice the filing of the lugs.
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b400/fj40/DSC02164.jpg

Now Italian cars and Japanese cars are a different story........

Miyata was arguably the best of the mass volume manufacturers. The bicycles are well designed and manufactured. Their spined triple butted tubesets are excellent and was manufactured in-house so it could be tailored to the particular model. Shimano 600 is a very good, upper mid-range geoup.

Having said that, it is still only a mass production bicycle, with concessions to hitting a price point. It will be lacking in small, costly and labor intensive features. However, for most people, unless they are competing, the return is very small relative to the extra investment for a more exclusive bicycle. Most would not notice or appreciate any difference beyond a cosmetic level.

I think you have made an excellent choice. Use it as test bed for a year or two and try to develop a feel for the nuances of the ride. Then borrow a more expensive machine and see if you can tell the difference. Even if you can discern the differences, you may not like them. If you can appreciate the difference, then great, you can decide if they are worth the extra dollars. Right now, being a novice, you probably couldn't tell the difference. If you had forked out the extra dough now and still couldn't feel the difference in two years, you'd be kicking yourself.

How we sold them way back...

Price with regard to performance... Japanese, especially components

Ride, European. If the customer could tell, they bought that.

Will work 20 years from now the same as it worked when new, Italian top tier, read: Campagnolo Nuovo Record.

Best derailluer Suntour VGT rear. Not light, (this was before Cyclone) but shifted best, especially wider range cog sets.

So it goes.

That Marioni is absolutely beautiful! I see the difference. Having said that, I'm more buying the vintage as an experience and in some ways, vanity. I like lugs :) But my daily rider will still be my modern bike, comfy carbon with modern brifters. Can't wait to get my NOS Miyata 914SE. Although, I know I will need some work on the chain rings / cassettes. 42 front and granny gear of 23 in the back just doesn't work for a middle aged guy just buying some toys...

That's an interesting question you pose - in general I'd have to agree with what T-Mar says as I often do but I'd like to add another perspective that T-Mar has also pointed out in other posts. In the 60's and 70's many, perhaps most, Italian bikes available in the US were mass produced by large Italian companies and quality varied somewhat. By the 80's the Japanese had conered the market on entry level bikes and even the big Italian companies were only exporting mid-range or better bikes to the US and the hot thing was high end bikes by semi-custom Italian builders. It's kind of an apples and oranges thing. Sort of like asking if a Harley or a Japanese motorcycle is better. It's one of those things that just doesn't matter because you're going to like one or the other for reasons that only you will understand. I personally prefer the look of an Italian bike. I haven't had the opportunity to test ride all the possible different bikes out there and never will so it will always be a choice of what I like the looks of.

I have to agree with ricohman. Here are a couple of shots of my Nishiki Ultimate. The lugs could have been filed a bit better, but it's not bad.

http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/1182/ultimate2lx1.jpg
http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/5271/ultimate5lb6.jpg

I'm curious how the Miyata will compare with the Nishiki's! I remember when the Nishiki Monterey was my dream bike... Now it's a Colnago Master X-Light, a Look 585 Optimum, and a Porsche 911 :D I'm making do with Miyata 914SE, Look 555, and an Acura RSX. Maybe one day...

I really think it comes down to intangibles. You'll love the Miyata, and for very good reason - they made great bikes with solid component groups at a good value. In general, they'll never turn heads like a vintage Cinelli or Gios with a Super Record Grouppo, but they'll still ride very, very nicely - some might say better than their European counterparts. If you search the forums using terms like "favorite road bike" you'll find threads with people waxing poetic about bikes from various continents.

[QUOTE=OLDYELLR;6263594]I have to agree with ricohman. Here are a couple of shots of my Nishiki Ultimate. The lugs could have been filed a bit better, but it's not bad.

+1. Nice, but nothing special (Nishiki). Although far nicer than my RB-1 (primitive).

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/66/155282720_6789d30400_o.jpg

And then you have fine Japanese Rides like these that will rival anything Italian.

http://www.classicrendezvous.com/Japan/Zunow/Zunow%202.htm


I'm almost through with finding the parts for mine :D

I also forgot about my Sekai 5000

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s48/mixtemike/Japanese%20Bike/SekaiFork.jpg

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s48/mixtemike/Japanese%20Bike/IMG_1539.jpg

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s48/mixtemike/Japanese%20Bike/IMG_1541.jpg

I'm curious how the Miyata will compare with the Nishiki's! I remember when the Nishiki Monterey was my dream bike... Now it's a Colnago Master X-Light, a Look 585 Optimum, and a Porsche 911 :D I'm making do with Miyata 914SE, Look 555, and an Acura RSX. Maybe one day...

Don't you mean a Fuji Monterey? I don't recall a Nishiki by that model name though in Canada, the Nishiki distributor was Norco and they did have a Monterey model. Regardless, both Monterey models were lower, sports/touring models compared to the Miyata. The Miyata would run rings around it.

Don't you mean a Fuji Monterey? I don't recall a Nishiki by that model name though in Canada, the Nishiki distributor was Norco and they did have a Monterey model. Regardless, both Monterey models were lower, sports/touring models compared to the Miyata. The Miyata would run rings around it.


Agreed. Both my Monterey's were far from nimble. Although one was built with Tange #2 double butted tubes.

Fred Deming was an American engineer who was rebuffed by US automakers and took his Quality Control and Statistical Analysis ideas to Japan's auto makers. We all know what it did for them.

It trickled down to the bicycle makers, and they looked at the Italian bikes and determined that they could mass-produce a similar product at far less cost. Not better, but pretty close and similar. They did, and if the yen hadn't shot up against the dollar, there would likely be a lot more Japanese bikes out there. As it is, there are plenty of examples where Japanese makers came close to Euro makers in quality (and generally better in paint) for a fraction of the cost, like the first two pics.

Or, you could always look at what happened when they collaborated... last two pics.

Wow, that's beautiful Robbie... that Zunow is crazy though. Personally I dream of the day I have the $ to get a Kalavinka (hopefully by that point they'll be taking orders again).

I have to agree about paint... I've had three Miyatas over the years and the paint held up on all of them far better than either of my Rossins... those things chip when you look at them.

I think there is also latent racism involved. Think about cars - the Japanese build the best cars according to the marketplace, yet there is practically no collector car market for them when they get old. Lots of people collect European and American cars though.

I think there is also latent racism involved. Think about cars - the Japanese build the best cars according to the marketplace, yet there is practically no collector car market for them when they get old. Lots of people collect European and American cars though.

You forgot about the 1972 Datsun 510!

[QUOTE=RobbieTunes;6273372]Fred Deming was an American engineer who was rebuffed by US automakers and took his Quality Control and Statistical Analysis ideas to Japan's auto makers. We all know what it did for them.

.....Edwards Deming is the correct name............

i don't have anything japanese, but i'm sure there is something that would rival the best italian. zunow are awesome...some of the japanese did learn what was going on by destructing and examining fine italian bikes.
i'll say, my italian bike has a wonderful ride. it is stiff when i put the power down but feels very smooth and comfortable. i think it may have to do with the nice tires, highly butted spokes and shallow box section rims...

You forgot about the 1972 Datsun 510!

I did forget, but I actually drove one in college for 2 years - that pukey green color. It was great driving car but rotted away beneath me in Try NY.

You know, I've seen a lot of Italian bikes, and they're not all that great. Plenty of off-the-peg Bianchis, Cinellis, Colnagos, etc., came with crappy paintjobs, poor threading, holes undrilled, bent derailer hangers and countless other problems. Most of the stuff we ride was turned out in a day by a couple of workers watching the clock and waiting for the weekend.

I'm confident that the top-end Italian frames can't be touched in quality, but I do think we may romanticize Italian frames too much, sometimes. I'd wager that most were made in conditions and with materials approximately the same as comparable Japanese builders.

oh yeah, here. just took this for you guys. first time i've ever seen lug work quite like this.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3232/2308641769_8b24eaaaa6_o.jpg

Don't you mean a Fuji Monterey? I don't recall a Nishiki by that model name though in Canada, the Nishiki distributor was Norco and they did have a Monterey model. Regardless, both Monterey models were lower, sports/touring models compared to the Miyata. The Miyata would run rings around it.

T-Mar - you're right. I was in Canada (12 years old) and my friend's Norco Monterey - with 14 speeds - was my dream bike. Because I was short, I rode a low end 650c Bianchi. And my "mini-12 speed" was no lightweight - probably really low end steel.

I think there is also latent racism involved. Think about cars - the Japanese build the best cars according to the marketplace, yet there is practically no collector car market for them when they get old. Lots of people collect European and American cars though.


You know, I've seen a lot of Italian bikes, and they're not all that great. Plenty of off-the-peg Bianchis, Cinellis, Colnagos, etc., came with crappy paintjobs, poor threading, holes undrilled, bent derailer hangers and countless other problems. Most of the stuff we ride was turned out in a day by a couple of workers watching the clock and waiting for the weekend.

I'm confident that the top-end Italian frames can't be touched in quality, but I do think we may romanticize Italian frames too much, sometimes. I'd wager that most were made in conditions and with materials approximately the same as comparable Japanese builders.

I think racism, latent or otherwise, might be a bit strong. But almost certainly there is a cultural difference. The Japanese seem to focus on well engineered, well built, economical machines whether that is bicycles, cars, or motorcycles. The Italians have a tendancy to focus on aesthetics whether that be bicycles, cars, motorcycles, men's suits, women's fashions or a host of other things. Practical people who need good reliable transportation often buy Japanese products; hence why the market has shown Japanese products to be more popular. People who collect vintage things are by nature a little eccentric and lean towards things that are unusual and stand out regardless of their practicality. Even entry level Italian bikes in the 70's had flashy paint jobs and lots of chrome, things rarely found on Japanese bikes of the period.

I think the problem for the Japanese is that no engineer, no matter how good he is, can distill that essense that makes the in thing "in". No matter how well engineered, how well made, how economical, you can't copy the essence of an Italian bike or a Harley-Davidson or a Ferrarri or an American muscle car. Some people don't care about that and they are happy to buy the Japanese product. Others do care about it and that will be the guy who says he'd rather push his Harley than ride your Honda.

And yes as you can see from my signature line I am biased. :D

...No matter how well engineered, how well made, how economical, you can't copy the essence of an Italian bike or a Harley-Davidson or a Ferrarri or an American muscle car.
And yes as you can see from my signature line I am biased. :D

American muscle cars hahahaha. All the class and charisma of David Hasselhof. I rest my case. By the way, weren't Harleys re-engineered by Kawasaki in the dark days of the 80s? :D

I think there is also latent racism involved. Think about cars - the Japanese build the best cars according to the marketplace, yet there is practically no collector car market for them when they get old. Lots of people collect European and American cars though.

What about Toyota 2000 GT ? First generation Datsun 240Z ?

Marinoni. Notice the filing of the lugs.
Only just stopped drooling. Lovely. What are the brakes?

Boy, this thread is moving....I doubt it's racism for lack of collecting of Japanese cars. Basically, they're good stuff, but boring. Once in a while, with the cars and the bikes, the Japanese got outside the box, but not often. When they did, it was with great results.

Maybe it's what they were doing when they were NOT working; the cultural differences. Italian designs seemed to indicate a flair and enthusiasm for life, the Japanese a solid conformity. Maybe it's how they felt about women, maybe it's the diet. Celebrate the difference and rejoice when you find a keeper.

American muscle cars have a charisma all their own, but this is a bike forum. I've had a Datson 240z and a '68 Camaro. Chicks dug the Camaro, and I could buy 3 restored z's for the price of a restored Camaro. Guess which one I wish I still had? the V8, hands down.

I'm just curious. I'm new to this vintage stuff - I got hooked on the look of lugged steel, and can't reasonably lay out the cash required for a good condition, ride as is Italian bike. Hence, ended up buying a NOS Miyata off ebay for $400 - Shimano 600 groupo all around, Miyata triple spline tubing and best of all, never ridden by anyone...except maybe test rides from 16 years ago.

Anyway, I also see Colnagos in much worse shape easily go for $1k+, or the really nice ones, close to $2k. I love the look and paint job of Colnagos and I saw a beautiful Tommasini. But the prices are much higher. Even Bianchi frames will go for more than, say a Bridgestone or a Miyata. So...in reality, how different are they? Is there such a huge gap in quality of tubing/workmanship, etc., or is it just the country of origin? And, will there actually be a difference in ride?

Functionally, the Japanese makes were at least as good as the Italian machines. In fact, I would argue that in many cases the Japanese equipment had better performance and reliability.

Much of the Italian mystique was in asthetics - a catagory that the Italians won hands down.

Only just stopped drooling. Lovely. What are the brakes?

Looks like Campagnolo Monoplanar Brakes

More pics here:

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Campagnolo-Chorus-Monoplanar-Brakes-C-Record-Delta-Era_W0QQitemZ290209267326QQihZ019QQcategoryZ42319QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

...you can't copy the essence of an Italian bike or a Harley-Davidson or a Ferrarri or an American muscle car. Some people don't care about that and they are happy to buy the Japanese product. Others do care about it and that will be the guy who says he'd rather push his Harley than ride your Honda.

And yes as you can see from my signature line I am biased. :D

Nicely said. I guess I vote with my feet...

2004 Honda Accord
1985 Panasonic Sport 1000
1984 Miyata Six Ten
1982 Schwinn Super Sport S/P (Panasonic)

I very much like to use French pots and pans. Anything French or Italian with moving parts is an objet d'art, not a machine. Not to mention that no Italians seem to grow to my size, ever--as nothing they make from clothes to cars fits me. 6'3" 250#.

[QUOTE=RobbieTunes;6273372]Fred Deming was an American engineer who was rebuffed by US automakers and took his Quality Control and Statistical Analysis ideas to Japan's auto makers. We all know what it did for them.

.....Edwards Deming is the correct name............


+1, it's Edwards Deming. And let's not forget Joeseph Juran, who was arguably even more influential to the Japanese. Now we're in my real field of expertise...

The Japanese are the people who raised the bar signifigantly on the entry and mid-range bicycless during the early 1970's boom. Before they came along the European and North American models at these levels were widly inconsistent in workmanship, even within a single shipment. With the Japanese it was very consistent. Every bicycle was virtually identical, except for the extremely rare problem. With the Japanese, you did not have to worry about what you were getting and they rightly came to dominate these levels, offering expert value.

But the Japanese could not crack the high end where the European mystique was long ingrained in the cycling community. The entry and mid-range had been relatively easy becuase the most consumers at these price points were realtively new to cycling, ignorant of European reputation and could just plain see that the Jpanese bicycle looked better.

However, the Japanese were frustrated in their attempt to crack the high end. In the mid-1980s many Japanese brands tried to increase Italian content by using Columbus tubing and/or Campagnolo NR/SR components. Some like Centurion, Nishiki and Lotus even resorted to having the bicycles manufactured in Japan. Even this did not seem to work, as the impression was neglible, despite some fine examples. However, it was all soon to be a moot point, as the Japanese superiority was soon to be financially destroyed by the Yen re-evaluation.

As for the cars, I'm out of my field here, but isn't the lack of collectibility in the early model due to their poor survival rate? If I recall correctly, the one thing they had not accounted for was our climate and most of them rusted away, much like the Opel GT. Consequently, most of them have not survived in sufficient condition to warrant a restoration.

There is a form of racism/prejudice in both camps when it comes to evaluating quality of Japanese products. On the buyers' side, it can be due to ignorance, personal prejudice, or public perception pressures. On the sellers' side, it can be prejudice, finite resources, and elitism. Japan is an island nation, and for the better part of its history, isolation and the feeling of cultural superiority has been their philosophy. What gets imported out of Japan or Japanese manufacturers, are products targeted to maximize profit in that market. Often, it isn't their best. They reserve their best for domestic consumption. State of the Art products are released domestically usually 1 year before imported. Or brands and models are only for domestic market. I'm talking cars, watches, electronics, cameras, motorcycles, jewelry, cutting instruments. I wouldn't be surprised if frames are also in that group. We are comparing apples and oranges with examples of Miyata vs. Colnago. Factory output vs. small operation of limited capacity. Compare Miyata and Gitane or Peugeot perhaps.
Japanese culture plays a big part, as Robbietunes first mentioned. For good or bad.

In a way, American made bikes and frames are also deemed less desirable than their European counterparts. But in ways, many American builders rival the Continent in quality and engineering. A lot of innovation comes out of North America (USA and Canada), but that hasn't lofted us to equal footing either.

It is impossible to accurately generalize on this subject. For example, I recently received a taiwanese carbon fork in immaculate condition in terms of finish and alignment, however, years ago, I received a mail order ferrari-red derosa with a drippy paint job and flaking chrome.

We are comparing apples and oranges with examples of Miyata vs. Colnago. Factory output vs. small operation of limited capacity.

i agree completely.
try colnago vs. 3rensho or nagasawa...i'd love to own any.

maybe something like bianchi or faggin vs. miyata or whatever....

You know, there is a lot of fetishism for Japanese bikes, and their quality is considered world class. The number of people out there buying NJS bikes and components right now likely dwarfs the entire field of "classic and vintage" bike people.

Maybe there is racism a generation removed from mine, but for those of us in our 20s, who grew up with totally normal Japanese-US relations, and Japanese everything in our homes, we don't ever stop and think about it.

It's true, it depends on a certain amount of what age group you are in. 40+ generations mostly harbor this inferiority opinion of Japanese, and Taiwanese products. Depends on your exposure. I'm sure the current buyers will remember the 'made in China' bashing. Even though Chinese production includes some very high quality products.


I personally, have no prejudices. Well engineered is just that, quality can come from anyone.

Only just stopped drooling. Lovely. What are the brakes?

1st generation Chorus.

American muscle cars hahahaha. All the class and charisma of David Hasselhof. I rest my case. By the way, weren't Harleys re-engineered by Kawasaki in the dark days of the 80s? :D


David Hasselhof and Kit (if that's what it was called, I never watched the show) were a generation too late for the muscle car era. The last real WS6 T/A 400 Trans Am rolled off the assembly line in early 1979. It was on life support after that. I don't ride a Harley but I don't recall anything about Kawasaki re-engineering anything. Maybe someone can correct me on that one. The new engines were engineered in cooperation with Porsche.

David Hasselhof and Kit (if that's what it was called, I never watched the show) were a generation too late for the muscle car era. The last real WS6 T/A 400 Trans Am rolled off the assembly line in early 1979. It was on life support after that. I don't ride a Harley but I don't recall anything about Kawasaki re-engineering anything. Maybe someone can correct me on that one. The new engines were engineered in cooperation with Porsche.

heh, i think the musclecar era was pretty much dead after about 1971 or maybe 1972...

Kawasaki never engineered ant Harley motors. Ever.

I think a lot of this thread is based on a really inadequate awareness of the tradition of handbuilt bicycles in Japan. I'm honestly rather astonished to see so few top Japanese builders come to light in a discussion this long. At the top end, Japanese handbuilt bikes are every bit the equal of Italian ones - and arguably superior in terms of finish quality. But comparing them is apples and oranges. The tradition of framebuilding in Italy revolves around racing bikes at the top end. In Japan, it revolves around touring bikes, and most of the models are French. The Japanese interest in French culture and the productions thereof is pretty well documented. I believe it was in the early 1960's that the Japanese first encountered the bikes of Rene Herse (followed by Singer, Daudon, etc.). At the time, the Japanese economy was in a post-WWII funk, and very few Japanese could afford such bikes, so they became an an object of longing and symbol of seemingly far-off prosperity. Japanese framebuilders, however, were able to take those bikes as models and in many cases match (some would say surpass) the originals. Thus, TOEI, Hirose, Watanabe, Cherubim, Alps, and others became sought after in Japan. The cultural, languange, and other barriers mean most in the US are unfamiliar with these builders (not true at all of US framebuilders, BTW).
Check out just a few examples here:

http://www.popdan.com/hmbs05/?builder=toei

These bikes are beginning to become better known in the US thanks to places like Velo Orange, where they are appreciated and discussed. More and more folks in the US are appreciating handbuilt bikes in general, as the success of NAHBS attests to, and are considering non-racing-style bikes -- i.e. camping, touring, randonneuring, and pass hunting -- as objects of desire. The best Japanese builders excell at making these types of bikes, and invented pass hunting. An Alps pass hunter is on my personal short list of bikes to own some day, though it will have to be second-hand as Alps is ceasing production. It's a shame that the fascination with NJS this and NJS that has obscured some of the very best examples of constructeur-style Japanese craftsmanship, which surely deserve admiration for sharing the pinnacle of handbuilt bicycles, even if they are too seldom seen in the US and difficult to obtain.

A few more examples:

http://members.aol.com/satorumas/mybike/mybike.html

My 1990 RB-1 has held up as good -if not better- than my 1989 Merckx. AND I put a lot more miles on the Bridgestone which I originally bought as a beater, or rain bike. RB-1 is Ishiwata 022, the Merckx is Columbus SLX. THe lugs on the RB-1 are a bit smaller with slightly sharper points -looks very cool in a purely functional way. Both frames weigh about the same. The paint quality is similar, that is to say stellar, but the decals have held up MUCH better on the RB-1. They look almost new. I am in the process of re-doing the Bridgestone with NOS parts (some campy, mavic shimano etc.) I think will post before and after shots in C+V.

The RB-1 had an eccentric mix of Japanese and American parts, and the Merckx has full Croce D'aune. I am leaving the Merckx alone. It is now the bike I like to look at, not ride...

heh, i think the musclecar era was pretty much dead after about 1971 or maybe 1972...

Muscle car era dead, in a coffin, with the introduction of the the Mustang II....my vote for worse car ever.

it is interesting to note that many of todays cars have a ton more HP than the classic muscle cars.

and if i recall right a 74 civic was actually faster in the quarter than a 74 base mustang.

but to the OP......I have a ''89 Miyata 1400......bought new, it is a great bike, well builte, great tubing (spline triple butted) I am upgrading to Ultegra 9 speed triple....... but perhaps irrationaly I lust for a red and chrome italian bike with alloy campy..... and maybe that is the difference....not real or practical, but simply desire.....formed by the mystiqe of Italian bikes....but many of them some how have a look that is special. It's like wanting a ferrari....not practical or better transportation....but it is red and italian. :D

My top line Japanese bike is my Nishiki Continental.
The lug work is very good but it is still below my Marinoni.
I can't compare the rides as they are two completely different use bikes.
Here is the lug work.

Marinoni. Notice the filing of the lugs.
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b400/fj40/DSC02164.jpg



Unless I'm missing something (someone correct me if I am), those are investment cast lugs, and there's not a whole lot of hand filing involved.
Very few IC lugged bikes constitute good examples of hand workmanship for comparison purposes. That's one of the main points of using them: they're major labor-savers.

Kawasaki never engineered ant Harley motors. Ever.

This is the way I understand it. It may go deeper. In the 80's Harley was bought by AMF who then decided to "fix" what they percieved to be a problem. A tiny hole in the Harley engine that would periodically leak a tiny bit of oil. With the hole no longer there the new AMF Harley engins ran like excrement. When Harley bought themselves back they put the hole back in and performance improved.

I see and work on more old bikes than most and have to say that among mass produced bikes, no company ever built a better product than Miyata, all things considered.

Even their entry level bikes like my 1986 215ST was an exceptionally well made bicycle with a very good parts spec and a well manufactured and well finished frame...if there is a fault it's that they could have improved their paint finishes just a little.

The bike lived as an SS for a little while and I ended up restoring it's gearing and gave it to a friend that needed a bike for light touring and riding in our river valley.

I miss this bike but do get to visit it from time to time.

http://www.ravingbikefiend.com/bikepics/miyata215b.jpg

I am also most fond of Kuwahara and both their Apollo and Kuwahara road bicycles and their mountain bikes. Their build quality was second to none, they used very good parts throughout, and their paint finishes are nothing short of amazing.

They might very well be a better bike than their Miyata counterparts.

This 1982 Apollo came into the shop on Saturday and the picture does not do it justice... I will take more after I'm done polishing her up and really think I might have to sell a bike or two to make some room. This is one of my favourite colours and I missed out on buying a nearly mint '82 Apollo Cascade mtb in this same colour.

http://www.ravingbikefiend.com/bikepics/Apollo1.jpg

I have two 1987 Kuwahara Cascade mountain / touring bicycles and both were built with Ishiwata quad butted tubing, were fully lugged, and came with the best parts money could buy as this was their top model. They retailed for $900.00 Cdn when they were new.

This Cascade is now set up as a fixed gear and is one of my all time favourite bikes... when it was a geared bike I took it off roading and my friends and their full susssers were often hard pressed to keep up with me, especially in climbs where this bike excels.

It has longer rear stays, pump mounts, and a spoke holder on the chainstay...the slack geometry and Ishiwata frame really makes this bike one of the most comfortable bikes I have ever ridden. I was thiking of using use it for some long distance rides this summer.

http://www.ravingbikefiend.com/bikepics/yardobikes/kuwiefix.jpg

heh, i think the musclecar era was pretty much dead after about 1971 or maybe 1972...

No argument there really for most cars - but the Trans Am was somewhat unique and I think you could stretch the Trans Am's "golden era" until the last T/A 400 Pontiac motors went out the door. Sort of a KOF for cars. While power was down significantly, the 73-74 SD-455 and even later run of the mill 455 and 400 Trans Ams were still very much in the muscle car tradition (well, pony car, but that's kind of hair splitting). No way in hates though that the 4.9l Turbo or those 80's Trans Ams like the one in that show would qualify. On the other hand, nothing I recall coming out of Japan or Europe during that era was doing any better. It was a bad time for cars in general.

Apologies to the OP for hi-jacking the thread :o

Apologies to the OP for hi-jacking the thread :o

No apologies needed. Very interesting posts - in fact, I just got home from work, looking forward to see what people post.

It's obvious that most people posting are guys; bikes, cars...only thing missing comparison is Japanese women to Italian women :D Guess this is supposed to be a bike forum after all. Dying to see my Miyata. I'm hoping to receive it this week, but I think it may not arrive until next week.

So here's another question. The bike I bought, as mentioned before (I think) is a NOS 1991 Miyata 914SE. It has Ultegra 600 7 speed grouppo, and the gear ratios on the bike (53/42 front, 13-23 back) simply won't work for me. With internet research, I found that Shimano doesn't recommend > 13 teeth difference on crank.
1) Does anyone have experience running 53/39 (i.e. 14 teeth difference) on 7 speed Ultegra 600?
2) Will the rear be freewheel or cassette? I'd like to just purchase the 13-28 7 speed cassette (HG 70 mind you) available at JensonUSA, but don't want to buy something that won't work.

Thanks to all the knowledgable folks out there!