Touring - Touring with disc brakes...pros and cons?

Anybody out there tour with disc brakes? What are the benefits? What are the problems? I wonder about the durability and simplicity of disc brakes in such an application. I use cantilevers, and I love them , but I'm curious about alternative lifestyles.

Peace,
BK

As far as I am concerned, the major problems are:

1. Need for a beefier fork to whitstand the braking torque. This is not a major factor weightwise.

2. There is (might be) a conflict between the brakes and the rack and/or panniers.
This is a major point and you should make sure you are able to attach your racks to the bike. Also make sure that the panniers won't hit the brake structure, get rubbed, etc.

Finally, there are a few advantages, mainly that your wheels may be wildly out of true and that your braking won't be affected by water or mud. However, current rim brakes with Kool Stop pads offer very good performance when wet. Some people consider their disc brakes easy to maintain, but I wonder what is the price of parts or their availabiity in remote corners.

Regards,

You wont have to worry about overheating your rims on big descents when heavily loaded

Don't get hydraulic disc brakes if you do, I would go with Avid mechanicals, much easier to maintain.

You dont have to worry about wearing your rims too thin.

Right on,

Thanks for putting up with me as I continue to flog this long dead horse.

mgagnonlv, I am curious if you have encountered the rack fit problem yourself, or if can elaborate somehow. It seems to me that that is a potentially big issue for a touring bike. Disc brake availability problems can be overcome if you have both canti and disc mounts (a la Karate Monkey), provided you settled on a wise brake spec BEFORE setting off on a tour.

And a question to FLYBYU, what does maintenance of Avid Mechanical Discs demand? Can you replace Avid Mech Disc cables with ordinary brake cable or do they require proprietary cables? Are special brake levers needed? I agree that hydraulics are time bombs on touring bikes.

BK

mgagnonlv, I am curious if you have encountered the rack fit problem yourself, or if can elaborate somehow. It seems to me that that is a potentially big issue for a touring bike. Disc brake availability problems can be overcome if you have both canti and disc mounts (a la Karate Monkey), provided you settled on a wise brake spec BEFORE setting off on a tour.

No I haven't. I have looked at the rear end of a friend's bike (unsuspended MTB), and the location of the brake itself just about cleared some rack struts but not all. When it came to panniers, the left pannier needed a wood block to prevent it from interfering with its mechanism. He settled the issue by using his older bike on tour.

I have also read many reports and clues by a few gurus regarding that issue -- namely on the Touring list. See http://search.bikelist.org


Regards,

I recently test rode a Giant touring bike, and I was disappointed how bad the mechanical disc brakes were. The LBS guy said it takes a while for the discs to get seated in. He said the discs should be replaced annually.

The first part is true: discs take a while to get seated in. I'm not sure exactly why, maybe it has to do with the oily skin of people who assemble the parts.

As for replacement, it is the same as for rim brakes: it depends a lot on your riding terrain and style.

I have Hayes mechanicals on all my bikes, but I understand that the Avid's are alot better, they are the same as any other brakes, you don't need special brake cables at all. As for maintence I hardly ever touch mine, occasionally I adjust the barrel adjusters out to adjust for cable stretch/brake pad wear, but you have to do that with any brakes. On my Hayes I've had the same brake pads on the one bike for 2 years now and they still have alot of life left in them. If you want to really improve the performance of you brakes, take the pads out, burn them off with a propane torch, then sand them lightly and reinstall, then wipe the rotor off with rubbing alcohol, they will work like new again. Also when you test ride a bike with disc brakes it will feel like they are crappy, it takes a while for the initial glaze to wear off the pads, then after that you can easily send yourself over the handlebars. I have a rack and panniers on my mountain bike with disc brakes, I took a long 8mm bolt for the disc brake side and added spacers to it so that the rack clears the brake mechanism. As for hydraulic brakes, they are a pain, I find that they get air in the lines and then they drag on the rotor, they need bleeding which is a pain, and I've had seals go in the caliper's, then you get DOT 3 brake fluid coating the whole brake and your fork, which is really hard on your paint and pretty much destroys your brake caliper, then in my case it took 1 month to get my new brake caliper back from Hayes on warrenty, never again.

Remember, while the disk will save your rim or prevent a blowout, the disk does not offer a large increase in braking performance (downhill). Disks tend to fail at 1100W (rotor warping, hydraulics melting off). Most disks can handle around 900W continuous whereas a good set of rim brakes can handle 700-800W continuous.

Remember, while the disk will save your rim or prevent a blowout, the disk does not offer a large increase in braking performance (downhill). Disks tend to fail at 1100W (rotor warping, hydraulics melting off). Most disks can handle around 900W continuous whereas a good set of rim brakes can handle 700-800W continuous.

Say what?

I don't know if I've ever generated 1100W on a bike, but now I have a target to shoot for.

(just kidding, prestonjb)
BK

Didnt think of it that way...
want to see what happens when a tandem hits 2000W on a carbon wheel and drum brake!!! look at this mess!

http://geocities.com/cyclebikers/July_23_Wed/

ya got to scroll down a bit to see the pic..

Okay Prestonjb,

I see what you mean.

Respect.

I'm curious, did you make any changes to your tandem after that episode?

BK

.... As for hydraulic brakes, they are a pain, I find that they get air in the lines and then they drag on the rotor, they need bleeding which is a pain, and I've had seals go in the caliper's, then you get DOT 3 brake fluid coating the whole brake and your fork, which is really hard on your paint and pretty much destroys your brake caliper, then in my case it took 1 month to get my new brake caliper back from Hayes on warrenty, never again.

Dug up from the dreggs of the archives.

I don't get why cars have been using hydralic disk brakes and hydraulic everything on earthmovers for about 40 years, and motorcycles for 30 years without problem with low and easy maintainence in fact no one would choose mechanical moto breaks for any reason other than cost of manufacture. Yet bicycles have that many problems. The basics of hydralics don't change and the size of motorcycle components is not much different from that of bicycles with the exception of the disk thickness and diameter.

Other than that, good thread it answered much.

I just got back from a 7 day tour from Birmingham, AL to Chicago, IL on my Giant OCR Touring and can say the Avid mechanicals did a superb job. Kentucky had some unbelievable grades I came down, and everytime I reached for them there was plenty of "Whoa" power. I also had 3 days of rain, and in the wet they are head and shoulders over rim brakes. I am a believer in discs, but did have to modify my racks some to get everything to fit properly.

Personally,
I can't see any reason to switch to disc brakes frpm cantilevers, but my bike is set up the way I like it.
As a cyclo-tourist I'm conservative, I am going to use what works until something new has been tried and tested and is demonstrably better. I see a lot of bike shops pushing disc brakes and telling people they have to have them because they are the newest and the greatest. I realize its tough running a bike shop but this kind of thing just discourages people from cycling.

However, just so you know I'm not an old curmudgeon, I am willing to be convinced.

I expect as the technology is refined they will probably become the brake of choice. But not yet.

I would imagine there is no reason to use discs in both wheels of a touring bike. If you want better rain performance etc, would it not be sufficient just to change your front brake? After all, that is the brake you use for stopping, right? At least you would not have to worry about rear pannier & rack setup.

--J

I would imagine there is no reason to use discs in both wheels of a touring bike. If you want better rain performance etc, would it not be sufficient just to change your front brake? After all, that is the brake you use for stopping, right? At least you would not have to worry about rear pannier & rack setup.

--J

I concur. Also, are there issues with grafting a disc brake to an old frame? On the front, you just buy new forks. Does the rear frame need to be changed?

you can buy racks made for discs (they are regular racks that come with longer bolts and spacers) , and disc brakes on bikes are over 10 years old and proven. i have discs all my bikes that i have bought in the last 5 years (that is 5 bikes by the way) i am a bike messenger and i tour regularly, i have never had any problems with discs that is not comparable to rim brakes, i just have them less often, and the ease of pad change and adjustment (both are tool free) makes it my brake of choice as someone who rides about 200 miles a week just at work, and i have to do it in the rain, snow, ice, etc. always fully loaded.

Mechanical disc brakes like the Avid bb7 are very reliable, powerful and easy to maintain. They use standard V-brake levers so reliability is as good as rim brakes. For an extended tour in third world countries all you would need to bring are extra brake pads and extra brake cables and perhaps an extra rotor if you are very unlucky. In most cases you will only have to replace the brake pads after thousands of miles and occasionally adjust the brake slack using the barrel adjusters and/or caliper knobs. As mentioned, your wheels will last much longer without the rim brake wear. Disc technology has been refined and perfected over the last decade making mechanical disc brakes great for any touring bike.

Hydraulic disc brakes like the Magura Marta are also very reliable and pretty much maintenance free since the system is sealed from the elements. The only problem with hydraulic disc brakes are if you accidentally shear the brake cable holding the brake fluid or damage the master cylinder on the brake lever. Repair would require many parts you're unlikely going to want to carry on any extended tour so sticking with mechanicals is safer even if hydraulics offer better feel, power, and weight benefits.

I guess here in Europe we take the whole disc brake stuff in a less "religious" approach. Fact is that hydraulic disc brakes do a better job than rim brakes, especially in wet conditions. With a loaded touring bike I want the best stopping power available, and as long as I stay in a "highly civilized" part of the world, spare parts are not an issue. However my bike can be equiped with rim brakes just if one day I won't be able to find disc brake parts in the middle of nowhere - high-tech being low-tech compatible ;)

Where to start?

Well, I tour with a bike with disc brakes (Avid road BB7s), with a frame and fork that has specific disc brake mounts (Dawes Sardar, old steel style).

Advantages: better braking modulation, better performance in the wet, no rim warping issues
Disadvantages: usually need disc specific racks, more expensive (need disc hubs as well as the brakes!), relatively more complex, less likely to find parts in far flung places

What it all comes down to is a personal choice: I love mine. However, unless you have enough money and just really want them, I'd recommend sticking with traditional brakes -the difference between performance of good quality discs versus good quality traditional brakes is just not worth the price cost IMHO. Touring has been done with traditional brakes for many years quite adequately. Whether or not you are prepared to pay for that improvement (that you could argue might not be needed anyway!) and its associated disadvantages is another matter. However, since I've paid already, I'll never be taking them off and I do find them to be an improvement.

FWIW, I do find some "anti-disc" arguments to be questionable, namely the old chestnut that they are more complex and less reliable. I've never had a disc fail for touring nor mtbing (arguably a different but certainly tough environment) and I still use "complex" derailleur gears. The argument that you may not be able to fix a broken disc brake also doesn't wash with me -to me the same argument can be made of traditional brakes (if the arm brakes, what are you going to do? That's certainly not fixable!). There might be some merit to the fact you may not want to use disc brakes for touring outer Mongolia, but even then, carrying a spare calipre with pads and disc may well be more than adequate and even overkill. I say "might" because I'm not touring far out places, so again discs are more than suitable for me.




Anybody out there tour with disc brakes? What are the benefits? What are the problems? I wonder about the durability and simplicity of disc brakes in such an application. I use cantilevers, and I love them , but I'm curious about alternative lifestyles.

Peace,
BK

Touring forum must be pretty slow when you have to look for five-year-old threads to embellish.

Anybody out there tour with disc brakes?

I just finished another disk brake touring bike for Interbike.
I will have pictures up on my New Blog in about a week at - brucegordoncycles.blogspot.com

It has Drop Bars and Cable Avids.

There are advantages and disadvantages - a bicycle is a whole series of compromises - one has to decide what is right for themselves.
That is why I build bikes with cantilevers or Disks - with threaded or threadless headsets.
Regards,
Bruce Gordon
www.bgcycles.com

Here is my 2¢.

I have bikes with both mech and hydraulic disk brakes. I love the hydraulics. I have never had any problem. The big advantage to them is how easy they are on my hands. Once you pull them you do not need to continue to add force the the mechanism...you just hold it in place. The maintenance is easy and not frequent. Unfortuntally there are no hydraulic levers for road bikes.

I have mech on my tandem and a mt. bike. The disadvantage to the mech breaks is that they are single piston, the inner pad just rides along the disk and the outter pad squeezes the disk and the pads together. However, on the tandem the breaking is much better then on any rim brake. Maintenance is fairly simple, however you need to keep an eye on the inner pad since it does not actuate; you need to watch the distance between that pad and the disk and adjust it often to prevent the disk from traveling to far and bending a bit to hit the pad to stop the bike.

I was this close to putting disk on my new rando/touring bike; however the disadvantages of rear rack fitting, and the limited choices for disk brakes on a road bike, had me choose cantileavers.

yes i agree it all comes down to preference. i happen to like the tool free pad change and adjustment, the fact that the pads last upwards of 2000 to 3000 miles and work just as well wet, dirty, fully loaded.
and in reply to all who keep saying "what if i am touring in middle earth and cant find bike parts?" if you are gonna tour a "third world" country and are not prepared to carry a back up for every thing that you couldnt do without..... dont go.

"what if i am touring in middle earth and cant find bike parts?" if you are gonna tour a "third world" country and are not prepared to carry a back up for every thing that you couldnt do without..... dont go.

That line of logic always slays me.....what if your frame cracks...what if both wheels break....etc

I guess here in Europe we take the whole disc brake stuff in a less "religious" approach. Fact is that hydraulic disc brakes do a better job than rim brakes, especially in wet conditions.

The tests I've seen - from the invaluable German "Touring" magazine if I remember correctly - show that modern wet weather brake pads like Kool Stop Salmons pay hardly any braking penalty at all in the wet.

Points about discs to at consider -

- They do impose more spoke strain

- Discs wheels are as deeply dished and are therefore weaker

- Most disc mounts on forks are placed in such a way that the disk brake is trying to pull itself out while it is being operated. I think there has been at least one successful lawsuit over this. Cotic have a "reversed" design on the Roadrat where the brake forces itself in instead.

I'm not saying that discs aren't an improvement, but they certainly aren't an unalloyed one. For some people they may be worse.

In response:

-I've cycled with some great Koolstop setups and Avid BB discs. The Avids win hands down in wet braking performance and predictability.

-disc brakes do create more spoke tension, but I consider this more a theoretical than a practical issue. Can anyone who uses disc brakes with a decent wheel build relate *first hand* a failure due to this? I cannot.

-disc wheels are dished more. Again, I consider this to be more theoretical than practical. A well built disc wheel set is fine. I do not know of any disc wheel failures while touring (or mtbing for that matter, though admittedly I'm just an XCer and not a hardcore enthusiast.) Along similar lines, a wheel that has a cassette or freewheel is dished more than one without -would you not use a cassette or freewheel for touring based on this?

-disc tabs are placed in an illogical place. But again, theoretical over real life? For all those people who have ridden disc brakes with securely fastened quick releases, does anyone have first hand experience of a wheel being forced out? I haven't. Something to consider: once a disc wheel is in place, the brake is ready to work. But how many people have had accidents with traditional brakes since they forgot to hook up the cable with the arms? Just a thought.....

I still think it's a case of whatever you want to use, if you get a decent well setup example of a disc/v/canti brake, you should be fine, though discs are much more expensive and offer less value.

FYI: I did a quick google on "bicycle disc tab lawsuit" and couldn't find anything. If anyone can supply a link that would be interesting.



The tests I've seen - from the invaluable German "Touring" magazine if I remember correctly - show that modern wet weather brake pads like Kool Stop Salmons pay hardly any braking penalty at all in the wet.

Points about discs to at consider -

- They do impose more spoke strain

- Discs wheels are as deeply dished and are therefore weaker

- Most disc mounts on forks are placed in such a way that the disk brake is trying to pull itself out while it is being operated. I think there has been at least one successful lawsuit over this. Cotic have a "reversed" design on the Roadrat where the brake forces itself in instead.

I'm not saying that discs aren't an improvement, but they certainly aren't an unalloyed one. For some people they may be worse.

-I've cycled with some great Koolstop setups and Avid BB discs. The Avids win hands down in wet braking performance and predictability.

Agree with this. I use Kool Stop salmon pads on all of my bikes with rim brakes. They work well in the wet, but it still seems to take time to squeeze the water off the rim and get any real stopping power. My Avid BB7 mechanical disc brakes always seem more immediate and predictable.


-disc wheels are dished more. Again, I consider this to be more theoretical than practical. A well built disc wheel set is fine. I do not know of any disc wheel failures while touring (or mtbing for that matter, though admittedly I'm just an XCer and not a hardcore enthusiast.) Along similar lines, a wheel that has a cassette or freewheel is dished more than one without -would you not use a cassette or freewheel for touring based on this?

If anyone is concerned about this, and given the number of mountain bikes successfully equipped with disc brakes I wouldn't be, you can build a wheel using a rim with off-center drilling. The OC rim leads to much more even tension between the drive and non-drive side spokes when the wheels are dished. I just built a set of wheels using Velocity's Synergy OC rim and was very impressed with the even tension between drive and non-drive side spokes, both on the disc-equipped front wheel and the non-disc rear wheel; much better than what you'd get with a standard rim.


FYI: I did a quick google on "bicycle disc tab lawsuit" and couldn't find anything. If anyone can supply a link that would be interesting.

I believe you're thinking James Annan's claims about the problems associated with disc brakes and quick release skewers (http://www.ne.jp/asahi/julesandjames/home/disk_and_quick_release/).

i actually have to agree. i have an old cross bike with nokon housings and kool stop pads and that set up has served me well, zero housing compression = awsome stopping power. but there is that 1 second when they are wet that i have to wait while the pad pushes the water out of the way. but i still prefer disc brakes.

In response:

-I've cycled with some great Koolstop setups and Avid BB discs. The Avids win hands down in wet braking performance and predictability.



That's very valuable - thanks.



-disc brakes do create more spoke tension, but I consider this more a theoretical than a practical issue. Can anyone who uses disc brakes with a decent wheel build relate *first hand* a failure due to this? I cannot.

-disc wheels are dished more. Again, I consider this to be more theoretical than practical. A well built disc wheel set is fine. I do not know of any disc wheel failures while touring (or mtbing for that matter, though admittedly I'm just an XCer and not a hardcore enthusiast.) Along similar lines, a wheel that has a cassette or freewheel is dished more than one without -would you not use a cassette or freewheel for touring based on this?


Again, good points.



FYI: I did a quick google on "bicycle disc tab lawsuit" and couldn't find anything. If anyone can supply a link that would be interesting.

I remember reading that a case had been settled out of court - in the UK I think.

Again for the sake of completeness, there's a point against rim brakes that I don't think has been mentioned:



http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/forum/board/?o=3Tzut&board_id=381&v=1g&page=12

I had a brake heat induced front tire blow off trying to descend "The Beast" in the Santa Cruz Mountains. During an earlier wet tour in the Appalachian Mountains, my brake pads wore right down to the point I had to drag my shoes to make a STOP sign stop at the bottom of one descent.

With the former, it was not the 18% grade per se, but the blind corner switchbacks on a narrow road with no place to get off the road if need be. So I had to keep my speed down fighting the strong downhill pull. Now this was with a 20" wheel, a 26" should be less affected and a 700c less still.


However:



Anyway, after The Beast crash, I replaced my front fork with one with a disc brake mount and added a mechanical front disc brake. I then tried The Beast again, but The Beast still won. I did get further down the mountain but the disc got so hot it discolored and I could smell the pads. Since this was just a test, I turned around and headed back. Perhaps with dual disc brakes it could be tamed.

I believe you're thinking James Annan's claims about the problems associated with disc brakes and quick release skewers (http://www.ne.jp/asahi/julesandjames/home/disk_and_quick_release/).

That was interesting reading -though it actually didn't refer to a case specifically. I'm definitely open to this point of view as it does make sense that a downward force is applied when braking -but I'm just not convinced that given an appropriately secured front wheel with functional quick releases that it is a problem. Given the prevalence of disc brakes in MTBing and the sudden braking and jarring that occurs even when you go "gentle" XC, I just find it surprizing it has not been reported more. Completely unscientific I know, but that leads me to believe that there probably isn't a real problem here.

Still having said that, I would think the best place for disc calipres is at the front of the fork, and not at the rear. I wonder why manufacturers have not done this yet -does anybody know of a reason? I can't imagine it would be retooling costs as many forks are redesigned -would it be purely down to disc brake manufacturers (as the disc calipre would have to be put on backwards if the disc tabs were at the front side of the fork)?

edit: something else (and really, I am not a disc brake evengelist here either) to consider is that with traditional brakes you were effectively eroding away the rims you are riding on -not a pleasant thought! I'd expect you could see when your rim wall is getting thin though.

There's a good, simple description of the problem here:

http://www.on-one-shop.co.uk/?page_id=669

Back to the general question - I think my BB7 disks are fantastic. I took them on a 5 week tour of very dusty parts of India, along with half-a-dozen spare sets of pads (those pads are tiny and very light), but never needed to replace them once. In fact, a year later, I'm still using the first set of pads on that bike, and I'm a big bloke who doesn't do much bike maintenance.

It *was* a bit of a footer to get my Tubus Logo rear rack to fit without impeding the movement of the BB7's radius arm, but that's mostly because I was using a frame with a sliding dropout and no braze-ons for rack etc. A pair of 1cm spacers and a couple of longer bolts should be all that's required for most situations.

I completely recommend the Avid BB7s. Top kit.

the tout terrain silkroad gets it right. forward facing fork dropouts, beefed up fork and rear triangle. Pricey though.

That was interesting reading -though it actually didn't refer to a case specifically. I'm definitely open to this point of view as it does make sense that a downward force is applied when braking -but I'm just not convinced that given an appropriately secured front wheel with functional quick releases that it is a problem. Given the prevalence of disc brakes in MTBing and the sudden braking and jarring that occurs even when you go "gentle" XC, I just find it surprizing it has not been reported more. Completely unscientific I know, but that leads me to believe that there probably isn't a real problem here.

I agree with you. It seems logical that applying a front disc brake will generate some amount of downward force. With gravity and the rider's weight helping to keep the wheel in place I'm not sure how it could escape the fork... unless the front drop-outs were angled rearward? In looking at my mountain bikes, I can't see any evidence that braking is trying to pull the wheel out of the fork and those bikes see a lot more aggressive riding/braking than my disc-equipped touring bike ever will...


Still having said that, I would think the best place for disc calipres is at the front of the fork, and not at the rear. I wonder why manufacturers have not done this yet -does anybody know of a reason?

I can think of several reasons:

1) James Annan is wrong and there isn't a prevalent problem with disc brakes pulling wheels out of the fork
2) Mounting the caliper to the front of the fork leg makes it more vulnerable to damage during a crash
3) Moving the mounting location would require cooperation from frame builders, fork builders, and caliper manufacturers. Getting all of these people to cooperate on a new standard may be difficult at best.
4) The MTB industry has already solved this problem using captive-axle designs like Maxle and 15mm QR.

There's a good, simple description of the problem here:

http://www.on-one-shop.co.uk/?page_id=669

........

I completely recommend the Avid BB7s. Top kit.


I second this. I used the BB7 road disc brakes on a 3 week China tour. 900 miles on those pads and lots of life yet left. It is great to have bb7s for long steep descents -- in my opinion much easier on the hands than calipers would be. I carry an extra set of pads for when they do wear out.

I am a guitarist, dont need any RSI like damage to the hands - I like discs on a tourer.

My tour bike (Dawes Sardar) has road STI levers and canti brakes and I really wish it had disks ;) The cantis with road levers are awful.

swap the fork and you could fit a disk on the front, sti levers don't mean you can't have disks.

The frame and fork have disk mounts as well as canti bosses but it would be an expensive upgrade needing new wheels/brakes. A cheaper improvement would be swapping to a trekking bar and mtb levers with v brakes but being poor I am sticking to the cantis for the moment.

I have the old steel Sardar with BB7 road discs and Cane Creek road levers (due to the fact the Cane Creeks pull more than the Shimano levers -not by much, but just enough to make it better for me). It really is a terrific touring setup. What's nice is that in an emergency and assuming you don't use disc specific rims, you can retro fit traditional brakes if necessary -though to be honest since I find discs to be very reliable, I've even removed the old bosses just for the sake of cleaner lines. Of all my bikes, the Sardar has become by far and away my favourite.

Just a pity that they stopped making the old style Sardar. I love the fact it has disc and traditional mounts so you can choose which brake system you wish to install.



The frame and fork have disk mounts as well as canti bosses but it would be an expensive upgrade needing new wheels/brakes. A cheaper improvement would be swapping to a trekking bar and mtb levers with v brakes but being poor I am sticking to the cantis for the moment.

Nigeyy, Mine is the 631 framed one too. I put some pictures of it on the loaded bikes thread.

http://www.bikeforums.net/showpost.php?p=9111807&postcount=1310

I bought it second hand without knowing anything about it other than it was a touring bike. Since looking on the net it seems that they have a good reputation. I quite like it but do find it a bit low at the headset. Mine is the small and the medium would definitely be a better height but I suspect would be too long. I have added a stem raiser which helps but despite the bars being slightly higher than the saddle I still feel that I have too much weight on my hands.

I have only done one 3-day tour so far and had major problems at the start with steering at low speed when loaded with front panniers and barbag (light). It felt like flex in the steering leading to overcorrection and was so bad I almost turned back after 50 yards as I didn't fell I could control the bike. I quickly got used to it and could cope but it was always there at low speed. As the speed increased it got more stable.