Road Bike Racing - Did WRI today.

That's Water-Rockets-Intervals.

Up until now I've been doing AC (zone 6) workouts straight out of Allen and Coggan's book; if anything, I think they're maybe a little too easy.

So since I was short on time this morning, decided to do the WRI. Started as hard as I could for 15 seconds, sat down, and basically tried to hang on until the PT said one minute.

Set a new one-minute power record on the first one - 591 watts (previous best, August or so last year, 551).

The rest - not so good- came in between 500 and 520 watts. Still need to work on it.

All in all a pretty good quick workout. Thanks WR.

How many sets did you do? And with what rest?

And I am asking because I am curious. I should probably incorporate some of that in my workouts.

With the Quarg open source, Linux driven power meter, I'm thinking we could even incorporate a WRI session, so it would show up as WRI on the display :)

The geek in me wants one so badly, but the rational side (SO, wife, finance minister) asks, with what money?

How many sets did you do? And with what rest?

I did only six, with between 2-3 minutes rest. If I were to design the workout again I'd probably try to do eight to ten with two minutes rest.

EDIT: on second thought, considering the theory behind the workout, You should probably rest more, as WR recommends.

With the Quarg open source, Linux driven power meter, I'm thinking we could even incorporate a WRI session, so it would show up as WRI on the display :)

The geek in me wants one so badly, but the rational side (SO, wife, finance minister) asks, with what money?

I had no idea that the Quarg stuff was going to be (is?) open source. I almost want to buy one so I can write my own software. Do you have any links/details?

First, you guys need to know how to spell it before you can search for it: Quarq

http://www.quarq.us/

First, you guys need to know how to spell it before you can search for it: Quarq

http://www.quarq.us/

ouch. but thanks. I was looking at the post above mine. Error propagation FTW.

ouch. but thanks. I was looking at the post above mine. Error propagation FTW.

My bad... I forgot the ;) smilie.

I'm not worthy of the Quarg, I meant Quarq ;)

With the Quarg open source, Linux driven power meter, I'm thinking we could even incorporate a WRI session, so it would show up as WRI on the display :)

The geek in me wants one so badly, but the rational side (SO, wife, finance minister) asks, with what money?

total thread hijack - just got the March email from them and it has been delayed until late April. a good update, however, including an appearance from Hunter Allen on their blog (http://www.quarq.us/Q-Blog/54-Solvang-Feild-Trip.html)

Up until now I've been doing AC (zone 6) workouts straight out of Allen and Coggan's book; if anything, I think they're maybe a little too easy.



I agree that 1-2 min at level 6 is pretty easy and leaves me feeling like I could do more. However, that is not always - or even usually- a bad thing. The important thing to question is whether or not it is sufficient to induce adaptation… all without creating needless fatigue. Just like doing sub-threshold work (say 0.85-0.95) should increase FTP, zone 6 should train AWC, right?

But I know it can be hard to put faith in the zones when you are feeling really good and want to go harder; but apparently “breakthrough” workouts are highly taxing and should only be done rarely.

I agree that 1-2 min at level 6 is pretty easy and leaves me feeling like I could do more.

Wow, I find this hard to believe since the effort should yield an IF of ~121% of FTP (duration =30s to 3 minutes) according to the CyclingPeaks 411 web page.

I'm talking about the workout prescribed by A&C. From memory I think it's ~140% of FTP (I could be wrong), which puts me at not-very-far above VO2.

Wow, I find this hard to believe since the effort should yield an IF of ~121% of FTP (duration =30s to 3 minutes) according to the CyclingPeaks 411 web page.

Easy is relative.

My zone targets are based off MAP (MAP=388W) not FTP (~280ish)

1: 180
2: 220
3: 250
4: 270
5: 300
6: 370 (FTP based IF=1.32)
7: >500

1min at 370 is a joke, 2min is ok hard, but I can do 400W for 2:15 if I dig into the suitcase of courage.

That's Water-Rockets-Intervals.

Up until now I've been doing AC (zone 6) workouts straight out of Allen and Coggan's book; if anything, I think they're maybe a little too easy.

So since I was short on time this morning, decided to do the WRI. Started as hard as I could for 15 seconds, sat down, and basically tried to hang on until the PT said one minute.

Set a new one-minute power record on the first one - 591 watts (previous best, August or so last year, 551).

The rest - not so good- came in between 500 and 520 watts. Still need to work on it.

All in all a pretty good quick workout. Thanks WR.

:lol: I'm a little late getting into this thread -- I was expecting a race report for some regional race I hadn't heard of!

Pretty crazy looking at the power profile from one of those, huh? It's like cliff followed by a ski slope for me.

They're pretty tough. A friend decided to do these with me last week, and it was his first time ever doing a 1-minute interval. After his fourth one, he started cramping so badly that he couldn't race this weekend due to a calf pull :eek:

So, yeah, be careful with these. If you're used to the effort, you'll avoid injury, but I only do these every two weeks at this point (I used to do them weekly - just not productive).

Regarding the Quarq, I plan to write some code for it using an emulator. I'll probably never buy one, but it's too attractive to not write code for it. I guess that means I might start off writing an emulator. I'll have to see how the free time goes. At the very least, it would be nice to have the TrainingPeaks numbers in there (TSS, IF, NP). Distance matching power pacing would be cool too (last time on this hill, at this point, you were 10W lower).

I wonder if the Quarq could have audio :) I could see some yelling during a WRI set being useful as it detects that power drop-off.

Easy is relative.

My zones targets are based off MAP (MAP=388W) not FTP (~280ish)

1: 180
2: 220
3: 250
4: 270
5: 300
6: 370 (FTP based IF=1.32)
7: >500

1min at 370 is a joke, 2min is ok hard, but I can do 400W for 2:15 if dig into the suitcase of courage.

Yeah, basing these anaerobic zones off of FTP is just silly for an NP-Buster type like myself. My WKO AC zone is 406W+, but my 1m power is 740W. Come. On.

I wonder if the Quarq could have audio :) I could see some yelling during a WRI set being useful as it detects that power drop-off.

:lol:

/me starts sketching out an ANT+Sport protocol audio adapter. This device could be too much fun for a geek. Less cycling, more developing is probably not good for training.

*Go faster you lazy ******! You bought me for such a lame workout? I'll show you what real PAIN means, Private Pile!*

I will unscrew your head and **** down your neck!

Choke yourself!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8Nf1MK7lts

I could see some yelling during a WRI set being useful as it detects that power drop-off.

My HRM from ~1999 does this. OK, it's beeping, not yelling, but why don't PT's do this?

My HRM from ~1999 does this. OK, it's beeping, not yelling, but why don't PT's do this?

I think I did all of one workout before I turned that annoying feature off.

You architects ;) should design something useful; like a wireless rectal thermometer, or a saddle that delivers electric shocks to the taint...

http://www.comics.com/comics/dilbert/archive/images/dilbert20122245080304.gif

Set a new one-minute power record on the first one - 591 watts (previous best, August or so last year, 551).

I'm not doing 1min intervals yet, but I when I was last year my experience went like this:

- seated - 500w
- WRI-style (explode standing then fight the fade) - 550w
- up a local 8% hill standing all the way - 600w

So while WR's technique gave me about 50 more watts, doing them uphill gave me 100 more. (These numbers were my goals for 8 repetitions -- a single all-out effort was about 100w higher in each case). My (uninformed) hypothesis was that standing all they way freed more lactate into the bloodstream, as it got my arms and upper body into the action, which therefore gave me a bigger AWC.

WR - ever tried doing the efforts on a significant incline? I just happen to have a climb up from a local reservoir that takes me just about exactly a minute.

I'm not doing 1min intervals yet, but I when I was last year my experience went like this:

- seated - 500w
- WRI-style (explode standing then fight the fade) - 550w
- up a local 8% hill standing all the way - 600w

So while WR's technique gave me about 50 more watts, doing them uphill gave me 100 more. (These numbers were my goals for 8 repetitions -- a single all-out effort was about 100w higher in each case). My (uninformed) hypothesis was that standing all they way freed more lactate into the bloodstream, as it got my arms and upper body into the action, which therefore gave me a bigger AWC.

WR - ever tried doing the efforts on a significant incline? I just happen to have a climb up from a local reservoir that takes me just about exactly a minute.

I do 90% of these on a hill. My 1m record is on a 17% hill.

I attempted some of these today. Ended up doing only 5. Have no powermeter so I don't have wattage. I also was only able to hold the pace at a most of 45seconds. I think I just was putting out too much early and dieing at the end.

Gotta try it to get better at it. Gotta learn what my body can do.

Easy is relative.

My zone targets are based off MAP (MAP=388W) not FTP (~280ish)

1: 180
2: 220
3: 250
4: 270
5: 300
6: 370 (FTP based IF=1.32)
7: >500

1min at 370 is a joke, 2min is ok hard, but I can do 400W for 2:15 if I dig into the suitcase of courage.

I believe ~135% FTP is the suggestion for 2' intervals. Try about 6 of those @ ~380 w.

I attempted some of these today. Ended up doing only 5. Have no powermeter so I don't have wattage. I also was only able to hold the pace at a most of 45seconds. I think I just was putting out too much early and dieing at the end.

Gotta try it to get better at it. Gotta learn what my body can do.

That failure at 45s is a result of going out too hard, and it's a good thing. If you think you're going out too hard, go out harder next time. Try to break something, and completely ignore the other 50 seconds of your interval. You bury yourself completely, as fast as you can, then just keep pulling teeth until the minute is up. It's horrible, but it has really worked for me.

Sometimes I only get 5 of these in, and I've never gotten more than 7. Six is most common, but the 6th is sometimes a joke.

i do all my interval work that's supposed to be at wattages above CP20 on a hill. It is much easier to attain/hold the power you're shooting for. That and i know how fast 400w will get me up a hill (fast)

That failure at 45s is a result of going out too hard, and it's a good thing. If you think you're going out too hard, go out harder next time. Try to break something, and completely ignore the other 50 seconds of your interval. You bury yourself completely, as fast as you can, then just keep pulling teeth until the minute is up. It's horrible, but it has really worked for me.

Sometimes I only get 5 of these in, and I've never gotten more than 7. Six is most common, but the 6th is sometimes a joke.

Well, I won't be getting outside anytime soon to test things out (more snow), so, a few questions:

Has this method also improved your sustainable 1' power (i.e. steady paced)? Also, how does your speed for the minute compare between the two types of efforts?

And, finally, are these done standing or seated or both?

That failure at 45s is a result of going out too hard, and it's a good thing. If you think you're going out too hard, go out harder next time. Try to break something, and completely ignore the other 50 seconds of your interval. You bury yourself completely, as fast as you can, then just keep pulling teeth until the minute is up. It's horrible, but it has really worked for me.

Sometimes I only get 5 of these in, and I've never gotten more than 7. Six is most common, but the 6th is sometimes a joke.

Ok that is good to hear. So basically the point is to inflict as much pain as quickly as possible and keep holding the pain for the minute even if it means going 10mph.

Gotta work that part of my curve.

Well, I won't be getting outside anytime soon to test things out (more snow), so, a few questions:

Has this method also improved your sustainable 1' power (i.e. steady paced)? Also, how does your speed for the minute compare between the two types of efforts?

And, finally, are these done standing or seated or both?

Good questions. My sustainable 1m power almost certainly has improved, but I can't say that it was WRI that did it. I haven't done any sustained 1m efforts to test it out, but my sustained power at every other interval has gone up from 10-15%. Again, I can't credit WRI alone for that. I really can't even make any claims about stress and adaptation improvements with WRI. They are fun though, and they make it very easy to track AC improvements.

I start off standing, hands in the drops. Just a standard sprint. If it's a really steep hill, hands on hoods. When I'm done accelerating, I sit and grind it out. In the last 10s, I stand again and take one last shot at breaking something.

Speed is faster with WRIs than sustained. The two intervals below are on exactly the same course (start line), with the same wind conditions both days (~10mph headwind). It's an uphill interval, probably a 2-3% grade or so? Not steep.

The sustained interval was during my first 1m interval workout with the PowerTap. It was the same course I had been using for over a year. I became very frustrated that I could not sustain anywhere near my 650W target, knowing I should have really high 1m power. Later in that same workout, I tried one without any pacing (my first WRI ;)), and it was much stronger. The next week I came back to do just WRIs and had much stronger intervals.

Sustained:

http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/4096/postdt5.png



Interval 2:
Duration: 1:00
Work: 35 kJ
TSS: 4.7 (intensity factor 1.676)
Distance: 0.371 mi
Min Max Avg
Power: 416 784 571 watts
Cadence: 58 95 89 rpm
Speed: 14.5 23.4 22.0 mph



WRI:

http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/3134/postam2.png



Interval 2:
Duration: 0:59
Work: 39 kJ
TSS: 6.1 (intensity factor 1.925)
Distance: 0.418 mi
Min Max Avg
Power: 334 1314 665 watts
Heart Rate: 0 179 137 bpm
Cadence: 60 100 91 rpm
Speed: 14.7 28 25.4 mph

So your heart stopped beating for 10 seconds doing the WRI? COOL!

Yeah but he didn't even have a heartrate for the sustained interval!

So your heart stopped beating for 10 seconds doing the WRI? COOL!

Yeah, that's one thing I should mention. Never start a new exercise program without first consulting your physician. That, and the heart stopping are both in my standard disclaimer below ;)
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I agree that 1-2 min at level 6 is pretty easy and leaves me feeling like I could do more. However, that is not always - or even usually- a bad thing. The important thing to question is whether or not it is sufficient to induce adaptation… all without creating needless fatigue. Just like doing sub-threshold work (say 0.85-0.95) should increase FTP, zone 6 should train AWC, right?

But I know it can be hard to put faith in the zones when you are feeling really good and want to go harder; but apparently “breakthrough” workouts are highly taxing and should only be done rarely.


Been thinking about this a bit lately, and it is definitely a balancing act.

One thing - this point in the year I'm not doing much zone 6. In fact, zone 6 and 7 is tough for me to do very often as I have the knees of a lactose-intolerant 93 year old woman. So when I do the workouts, I need to make them count.

Does that mean doing them with less intensity a little more often? More intensity less often? Obviously there's no 'perfect' answer...

Been thinking about this a bit lately, and it is definitely a balancing act.

One thing - this point in the year I'm not doing much zone 6. In fact, zone 6 and 7 is tough for me to do very often as I have the knees of a lactose-intolerant 93 year old woman. So when I do the workouts, I need to make them count.

Does that mean doing them with less intensity a little more often? More intensity less often? Obviously there's no 'perfect' answer...

That's one plus-side of these WRIs -- they can double for some zone 7 over-stress because of the start.

Yeah, basing these anaerobic zones off of FTP is just silly for an NP-Buster type like myself. My WKO AC zone is 406W+, but my 1m power is 740W.

Isn't 740 W > 406 W? Has Coggan ever placed an upper limit on level 6? Hasn't he always said that "......the primary reference, therefore, is not to the system itself, but to the athlete's own unique (and current) ability."? :p

P.S. Your WRI intervals^TM are infringing upon my copyright for "go hard, puke, go home^TM" intervals. ;-)

Regarding the Quarq, I plan to write some code for it using an emulator. I'll probably never buy one, but it's too attractive to not write code for it. I guess that means I might start off writing an emulator. I'll have to see how the free time goes. At the very least, it would be nice to have the TrainingPeaks numbers in there (TSS, IF, NP).

Those are supposed to be in there from the git-go (which is why I'm hoping to be a beta tester...I figure that since I'm not getting anything else for the use of my ideas, at least I can score some schwag <g>).

:roflmao: given our dealings in the past, I'll grant you unlimited license to use the terms WRI™ and "Waterrockets Intervals™" in any future publications. That's assuming my brand manager, ElJamoquio, approves the license.

Cool to know the Qranium will sport these values real-time. Good luck with the beta :)

Rest intervals? how long?

3-5 minutes most times. One 8-10 minute rest in the middle sometime is nice.

Been thinking about this a bit lately, and it is definitely a balancing act.

One thing - this point in the year I'm not doing much zone 6. In fact, zone 6 and 7 is tough for me to do very often as I have the knees of a lactose-intolerant 93 year old woman. So when I do the workouts, I need to make them count.

Does that mean doing them with less intensity a little more often? More intensity less often? Obviously there's no 'perfect' answer...

Good question –as usual- and I don’t know the answer.

If I had to take a stab at it I would say that you would first want to determine what limitation you are addressing and accept that your most strenuous workouts will be done towards that end – even if it reduces the quality of other lower priority workouts. Would your knee health be as big a limiter towards AWC workouts if you had cut a VO2 interval or two?

As for frequency and intensity, I feel, you need to maximize former and minimize the later with the restrictions that you recover nearly fully between workouts (as above) and that the intensity is high enough to induce adaptation. For someone who is very fit like yourself -and who also has high P at VO2 max- it may take a very intense interval to fully engage your anaerobic system, as your aerobic system is so strong. Yet, if your knee is buggered your ability to recover quickly is hampered and frequency might have to be quite low.

It’s not easy to determine what the minimal required training stimulus is. An iterative process involving fitness testing, planning and implementation is required. Too much strain is much easier to see (pain, illness, chronically fatigued)

Test – plan – implement – retest – evaluate – plan - …..

Maybe A Coggan can help us figure out how to design a “perfect” AWC workout? For example I know that for aerobic intervals a suggested “perfect” routine is to determine power at VO2max and sustainable duration at PVO2max and then do intervals at PVO2max for 60%SD PVO2max. Anything like that for AWC? Maybe determine CP3min then do intervals at CP3min for 60% of 3min (1.8min)? Thoughts?