Jeeeze! I did type that backwards! Thanks!

Many apologies, and I didn't catch it. My fubar!

Okay, that's why I asked for the clarification earlier. So it's 4 carbs to 1 protein? Okay that's a lot closer to what I've been doing.

No matter how you do it, if you consume more calories than you burn, you'll gain weight; and if you burn more than you consume, you'll lose weight. A calorie is a calorie, a measure of energy (a food calorie is a kilocalorie...enough energy to raise the temperature of one kilogram of water by one degree celsius), and calories do count. Some of the gimmicks may help you burn more or help you consume less with less discomfort, but it finally comes down to intake vs. use...anything else would be a violation of the laws of thermodynamics.


That is true if you want to just lose weight. If you want to try and lose as much fat as possible and retain muscle than it's simply not true. If the body doens't get enough caloric energy then it will take it from the body itself weather that be fat, muscle, glycogen, etc. I truely believe that the compostion of the calories and when they are conusmed does have an affect on losing fat, versus losing over all body weight via canabalized muscle.

No matter how you do it, if you consume more calories than you burn, you'll gain weight; and if you burn more than you consume, you'll lose weight. A calorie is a calorie, a measure of energy (a food calorie is a kilocalorie...enough energy to raise the temperature of one kilogram of water by one degree celsius), and calories do count. Some of the gimmicks may help you burn more or help you consume less with less discomfort, but it finally comes down to intake vs. use...anything else would be a violation of the laws of thermodynamics.

I kept getting myself in this feedback loop.

On the school of thought where a calorie is a calorie and intake < burn in order to lose weight:

How much do you burn if you don't do anything? You can try one of those calculators but they're not that accurate. Let's say you normally burn 2500 calories in your normal day's activities. If you eat 2500 calories your weight will be stable. Use the analogy of a furnace. If the furnace burns hotter you'll need extra fuel in order to keep it functioning.

The idea about exercising first thing in the morning is that it's a way to raise your metabolism and get your body to burn hotter quicker. This means instead of 2500 calories you usually need you now are burning maybe 3000 or even 3500 calories a day. Even if you skip a day your body will still burn at close to that rate because you've trained it.

On the flip side when you drink alcohol your metabolism slows down. So even if you're taking in 150 calories with a shot of whiskey your overall metabolism may require only require 2200 calories. Just by counting the calories won't inform you what your body is requiring.

It is part 'gimmick' I suppose just like keeping the tire pressure up on your wheels is a gimmick to decrease rolling resistance and keep down the possibility of flats. You can still ride with low pressure but it works better when it's fully inflated ;)

That is true if you want to just lose weight. If you want to try and lose as much fat as possible and retain muscle than it's simply not true. If the body doens't get enough caloric energy then it will take it from the body itself weather that be fat, muscle, glycogen, etc. I truely believe that the compostion of the calories and when they are conusmed does have an affect on losing fat, versus losing over all body weight via canabalized muscle.That's another reason to exercise beyond the simple burning of calories...exercising lets your body know that it should keep the muscles and not just burn them to keep warm.

The idea about exercising first thing in the morning is that it's a way to raise your metabolism and get your body to burn hotter quicker. This means instead of 2500 calories you usually need you now are burning maybe 3000 or even 3500 calories a day. Even if you skip a day your body will still burn at close to that rate because you've trained it. So if it works even if you skip a day, it'll work no matter what time of the day you exercise. You're arguing against yourself.

OK, deraltekluge, I suppose we're going to have to agree to disagree. That's fine with me, by the way. You have your beliefs and I have mine as to diet and exercise and metabolism. No worries :D

I'm in the calories in-calories out school of thought and I think all the myriad theories and weight loss plans are all hooey and it just boils down to that. Also I think that rolling out of bed in the AM and immediately doing strenuous exercise is hard on the heart.

So if it works even if you skip a day, it'll work no matter what time of the day you exercise. You're arguing against yourself.

A day - yes. And again using the tire analogy, you can ride on under inflated tires and it'll get you where you want to go but there's another way that's more effective.

which is why I said to hold it down to cardio levels, as in moderate, and not a race pace. ;) 65-70% Max HR at the highest and limited duration, just to ramp up the metabolism. I am NOT advocating going out and doing High intensity intervals or endurance rides on an empty tank ;) It's simple physiology, a body operating at a higher metabolic rate is going to first take the carbs to restock muscle and liver glycogen and the protein to suppport and rebuild muscle tissue. It won't store to fat. You need to avoid binging afterwards as well, by the way. It's still calories in < Calories out, but you're also using a quirk of physiology to target the fat burn as much as possible.

Here's the deal. If you are depleted on muscle and liver glycogen, your body will go after protein and fat at about equal ratio to maintain homeostasis, or balance on your blood sugars. If you are eating within the 30-60 minutes after you've ramped up your metabolism, you are going to be in a recovery mode and restocking the glycogen first, with the carbs and the protein will go directly to supporting your muscle mass.

The end result is that while you are burning both fat AND protein to support the cellular metabolism rather than the Kreb Metabolism (or high energy sugar cycle, or citric acid cycle), with the protein support, it becomes a ratio of ~65-70% loss of fatty tissue: 30-35% muscle tissue rather than an ~ 50:50 loss type Protein:Fat. It's not a gimmick, it's just a factor in your metabolism that you can use as a tool to assist you. It's not magic, it's not a trick, it's just plain old fashioned scientific approach to maximize the effectiveness of your effort.

I'm in the calories in-calories out school of thought and I think all the myriad theories and weight loss plans are all hooey and it just boils down to that. Also I think that rolling out of bed in the AM and immediately doing strenuous exercise is hard on the heart.

it's just plain old fashioned scientific approach to maximize the effectiveness of your effort.

And that's all everyone's saying. Will you lose weight by riding everyday after eating? Sure. But there's a way of using your __ amount of time more effectively.

TS - You might be on to something. When I exercise moderately before breakfast, like cycling or hiking or swimming, I do tend to feel good.

Yeah Tom, you might be on to something, maybe you should look into it, so far you've been a bit vague. I wish you would provide some facts instead of all this hocus pocus witchcraft you're advocating. :)

Seriously, thanks for taking the time to write these explanations Tom, they've certainly convinced me. So I'm going to stick with eating after I've cycled to work, the science makes sense to me.

A day - yes. And again using the tire analogy, you can ride on under inflated tires and it'll get you where you want to go but there's another way that's more effective.

Marginally more effective. I think the under-inflated tires analogy doesn't hold air, Air, simply because riding on under-inflated tires increases the chances of a pinch-flat and it's not recommended practice in most cases. I suggest a better analogy is changing pedals to save a few grams of weight. Yes, the bike is going to be a little lighter for doing so, and you might be marginally faster, but is it worth the trouble? Do it if you want to, but it hardly seems important enough to me. It's certainly not worth the extended discussion it's getting here.

mmmmmmmm...... bacon sammiches

Don't forget about the bacon sammiches

I'll equate weight to fat for me. I think that generally is the deal.

I bet if you ride 5 days/week at any time, vs. 4 days/week at an optimum time, you'll lose more weight with 5 days/week. Focus on exercising regularly and how much you eat. You can get more scientific and precise when you are training, as opposed to trying to lose weight. I lost 35 pounds by riding a bike when I felt like it and going however long I wanted to. I did it because it was fun and I enjoyed it. The weight came off steadily over a 1 year period. My daughter, who is a driven triathlete, was amazed at how many miles I did in one year.

Bob

I know everyone has their theorys but there is a lot of factual medical data to support what Tom and I are saying. I wish I had the time to go and dig a bunch of it up, but I don't.

I bet if you ride 5 days/week at any time, vs. 4 days/week at an optimum time, you'll lose more weight with 5 days/week. Focus on exercising regularly and how much you eat. You can get more scientific and precise when you are training, as opposed to trying to lose weight. I lost 35 pounds by riding a bike when I felt like it and going however long I wanted to. I did it because it was fun and I enjoyed it. The weight came off steadily over a 1 year period. My daughter, who is a driven triathlete, was amazed at how many miles I did in one year.

Bob

It would come down to HOW more effective that four days is, if any. It would be interesting to find out. Recently (about a month ago) I started doing 40 minutes of exercise a day (work days) no matter what it was or what time of the day. I walk, bike, jog, etc. but 40 minutes. As you mention consistency is the goal. I chose 40 minutes because that is what I can get in on a slightly extended lunch hour with changing, cleaning up, etc.

I think for me to prove it to myself I'm going to have to ride in the morning for a week or so, then switch to a later time in the day. Not very scientific but maybe I can detect an acceleration in weight loss that is significant enough to convince me. Hell it might be that exercising first thing suppresses my appetite a bit for breakfast and THAT is what does it. No matter, as long as it does the trick.

I bet if you ride 5 days/week at any time, vs. 4 days/week at an optimum time, you'll lose more weight with 5 days/week. Focus on exercising regularly and how much you eat. You can get more scientific and precise when you are training, as opposed to trying to lose weight. I lost 35 pounds by riding a bike when I felt like it and going however long I wanted to. I did it because it was fun and I enjoyed it. The weight came off steadily over a 1 year period. My daughter, who is a driven triathlete, was amazed at how many miles I did in one year.

Bob

To agree again..... being consistent and enjoying my time on the bike will help accomplish my goal. Any lost efficiencies due to timing of the ride will be offset by the fact I'm staying with it and so on.

I know everyone has their theorys but there is a lot of factual medical data to support what Tom and I are saying. I wish I had the time to go and dig a bunch of it up, but I don't.

Like here?


http://bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=323463 - Fat burning
http://bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=296070 - Heart Rates in training
http://bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=295670 - Riding and weight loss
http://bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=263236 - Losing weight, exercising vs food
http://bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=231543 - Muscle Mass

Like here?

I'll read through those. Thanks for the link.

Like here?

Lots of good reading for everyone. Thanks for posting them.

Anytime - I added this one to the section too.

Now if only I could follow all this great advice...

And related for the calories counters:
http://bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=231402

That's fine, and you're right for the most part.....

Don't sweat it if you follow your own path. We all have to do what WE feel comfortable with. If you're losing weight safely and not suffering any dietary deficiencies, you aren't doing anything wrong ;) You might be able to optimize your loss a bit more, but if you're happy, I'm happy. :D

To agree again..... being consistent and enjoying my time on the bike will help accomplish my goal. Any lost efficiencies due to timing of the ride will be offset by the fact I'm staying with it and so on.

Why?
yeah, why?
DR Stormcrowe used enough big words to convince me. It also confirms what my doctor said. I don't see why it's stupid, it's not like I'm running a marathon, I've just doing 30 minutes exercise before I eat anything.

While we're on the subject, what's the best post ride breakfast? DR Stormcrowe mentions a mix of protein and carbohydrates, well bread is carbohydrates right? and bacon is protein no? So...:sigh:
Diet is 90% of any kind of training, fat loss, weight loss, etc, that's all you need to know to answer your "why?"

So what about the other 10%, or whatever percentage? Wouldn't you like to do "the best that you can" with it? If timing your rides got you an additional 5% benefit I would think you would want to do it if you had the option.

And a :sigh: assumes I'm an idiot and "all I need to know" is very simplistic. If that was all people needed to know then that is all athletes would need to do. And it isn't. And there are reasons for it. If that is all YOU want to know, they good for you.

Damn you all - I want bacon now! :(

Jeeeze! I did type that backwards! Thanks!

Many apologies, and I didn't catch it. My fubar!

I'm glad this was caught. I was trying to think of really big eggs or very tiny bagels:eek:

I'm in the calories in-calories out school of thought and I think all the myriad theories and weight loss plans are all hooey and it just boils down to that. Also I think that rolling out of bed in the AM and immediately doing strenuous exercise is hard on the heart.

There is indeed much avalable in literature on this topic. As I read it, a "calorie in - calorie out" method is pure math applied to phisiology and is in fact true and valid. I believe it also true that there is a good deal of difference between taking in sugar, fat or protien and an equally differentiated effect of burning fat, carbs or protien. It must also be different when burning nutrients just taken in versus those stored by the body as either fat, glycogen or muscle.

Ideally, I think, one would want to initiate activity using glycogen and/or recently ingested carbs, and then burn converted fat from storage in the body. Use of muscle tissue, while effective in maintaining energy output seems contraindicated for long term fitness and health.

I believe taking in nourishment as needed, in the amounts necessary to sustain actual activity is probably the healthiest and most efficient, assuming an ideal weight. It seems intuitively inefficient to exercise vigorously after fasting, or to eat voraciously prior to idleness. It seems innefficient to store large quantities of excess calories on the body as fat to be called on for energy over time rahter than using it as it comes in.

The practical approach seems to be as active as one can be given life's circumstance, and eat only as much as is necessary to keep one comfortable with some regard for variety of intake.

One must also consider the type of activity in all this. For example burning 600 calories running stairs will not have the same end effect as burning 600 calories riding a bike. The body has to recover from the activity and that recovery is significant. I know some want to cut it down to "Here is one sentence, that is all you need to know about it" but it's far more then that.

The practical approach seems to be as active as one can be given life's circumstance, and eat only as much as is necessary to keep one comfortable with some regard for variety of intake.

I agree but since my circumstances allow me to choose, I want to choose what is more efficient.

I'll say this.

At this point of my health it won't work for me. I'm fat because I over eat, I over eat because I don't have a switch that tells me I'm full. I'm always hungry, the few times I'm not are after Thanksgiving, Christmas, and Easter dinners.

If I come back hungry there will be no amount of food that will stop that hunger - my friends have seen this and I now give warning bells (I need to eat in 45 mins or else). Until I get my hunger under control I won't be able to leave on an empty stomach and expect to come back to a light meal.

But one day I hope to!

I'll say this.

At this point of my health it won't work for me. I'm fat because I over eat, I over eat because I don't have a switch that tells me I'm full. I'm always hungry, the few times I'm not are after Thanksgiving, Christmas, and Easter dinners.

If I come back hungry there will be no amount of food that will stop that hunger - my friends have seen this and I now give warning bells (I need to eat in 45 mins or else). Until I get my hunger under control I won't be able to leave on an empty stomach and expect to come back to a light meal.

But one day I hope to!

That certainly sucks! Is there something the medical community can do to help on this? For me it's similar except I know when I'm not hungry anymore, it's just that I love to eat. I'm a pig! So sort of like you, I know why I'm overweight.

I'll say this.

At this point of my health it won't work for me. I'm fat because I over eat, I over eat because I don't have a switch that tells me I'm full. I'm always hungry, the few times I'm not are after Thanksgiving, Christmas, and Easter dinners.

If I come back hungry there will be no amount of food that will stop that hunger - my friends have seen this and I now give warning bells (I need to eat in 45 mins or else). Until I get my hunger under control I won't be able to leave on an empty stomach and expect to come back to a light meal.

But one day I hope to!

If I can do it, anyone can. I was just like you, well actually I still am. I eat non stop, at least 8-9 times a day. I've still lost a huge amount of weight by changing what I eat and when I eat it. Believe me brother, it is possible.

That certainly sucks! Is there something the medical community can do to help on this? For me it's similar except I know when I'm not hungry anymore, it's just that I love to eat. I'm a pig! So sort of like you, I know why I'm overweight.

Grapefruit seed oil helps to keep my appetite down but I also am pretty against anything that you need to keep taking even if it's just some oil. I can control my appetite and I can eat balanced after riding if I start off with something but if I start off hungry or get hungry I probably won't stop eating till the next day. Having healthy ready to go options are useful (big bowl of whole wheat pasta with turkey) so at least I have have a lot and still not blow my days allowance of calories.

If I can do it, anyone can. I was just like you, well actually I still am. I eat non stop, at least 8-9 times a day. I've still lost a huge amount of weight by changing what I eat and when I eat it. Believe me brother, it is possible.

Have a meeting with a nutritionist in a few weeks - I have a long list of questions that will hopefully be answered :)

Usually if I want to start constricting my caloric intake I'll fast for a few days to shrink my stomach which will help with the hunger. Gotta be another way though. And I'm not saying it's impossible - just that like this morning after reading this last night I thought about going for a ride on an empty stomach but was so hungry I knew it was just going to be a bad idea. I had healthy food all day and want to ride but I know as soon as I do anything my hunger is going to sky rocket. So I'll have something sustainable then ride for a few hours so I won't come back starving with the shakes.

So I'll have something sustainable then ride for a few hours so I won't come back starving with the shakes.

"The shakes" is just cellular level aerobics, so think of the benefits!

Well sure - and the dizziness is like having a few shots without the calories! http://www.yehoodi.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/icon_spineyes.gif

Now about the burning when I urinate....

:sigh:
Diet is 90% of any kind of training, fat loss, weight loss, etc, that's all you need to know to answer your "why?"

That came over as quite condescending knucks, I don't know if that was intentional.

I'm afraid "diet is 90% of any kind of training..." is not all I need to know to answer why cycling to work is stupid when doctors and medical science suggest it makes sense.

If it's genuinely stupid and you have a sensible reason why then I'd be interested to know; I don't want to cycle if you know of a secret reason why it's stupid, that my doctor doesn't know about.

Tom and others have posted lots of good scientific information about diet, and about how what you eat and when you eat it affects your body. It sounds sensible that eating after I've cycled to work could be more benefitial than before.

Medical science puts over a much more convincing argument that it's not stupid than you just stating it's stupid because diet is important.

That came over as quite condescending knucks, I don't know if that was intentional.

I'm afraid "diet is 90% of any kind of training..." is not all I need to know to answer why cycling to work is stupid when doctors and medical science suggest it makes sense.

If it's genuinely stupid and you have a sensible reason why then I'd be interested to know; I don't want to cycle if you know of a secret reason why it's stupid, that my doctor doesn't know about.

Tom and others have posted lots of good scientific information about diet, and about how what you eat and when you eat it affects your body. It sounds sensible that eating after I've cycled to work could be more benefitial than before.

Medical science puts over a much more convincing argument that it's not stupid than you just stating it's stupid because diet is important.
No you misunderstood me. I am by no means saying cycling to work is stupid. I'm saying it is stupid to do any type of activity on an empty stomach. Breakfast is the most important meal of the day, why would you begin physical activity WITHOUT it?

why would you begin physical activity WITHOUT it?
For the scientific reasons described in lots of the posts in this thread.

I think we're going round in circles. Have a nice weekend.:)

Anytime

All right, I'll try this again:

You do some MODERATE exercise to ramp up your metabolism before you eat, so you can make the most efficient use of the nutrients instead of storing them away. You supplement the protein to concentrate the burn in the fat to specifically target fat loss and protect the muscle mass. You start out the moderate exercise in a glycogen depleted state to activate the anaerobic metabolism to target the 50:50 protein:fat burn to power your body.

When you restock, the carbs get processed directly to glycogen storage for replenishment rather than storing them to fat....as long as you are still in that magic window of 30-60 minutes post exercise and the metabolism is still ramped up. The protein goes to rebuilding muscle tissue as well in the ramped period and the burned fatty tissue doesn't get replaced as quickly as if eaten after a sedentary period. It's a win/win situation. Genetically, we're hunter/gatherers and this is reflected in how our metabolism stays ramped for maximum efficiency "after the hunt", as well as the tendency to store to fat if sedentary, like it would be in bad weather/winter if we were still hunter gatherers.

Breakfast is STILL the most important meal, this just allows you to make use of it in the most efficient manner possible, metabolically speaking.

No you misunderstood me. I am by no means saying cycling to work is stupid. I'm saying it is stupid to do any type of activity on an empty stomach. Breakfast is the most important meal of the day, why would you begin physical activity WITHOUT it?

All right, I'll try this again:

You do some MODERATE exercise to ramp up your metabolism before you eat,

I think that's the part that keeps getting missed. No body is saying that people should be doing high intesity exercise on an empty tank.

I think people read just enough to fly off to the response they want to make. It's been stated clearly several times.

This I would believe. I only keep restating to hopefully get over the noise level enough to get the info to someone that is actually interested in using it. ;)

I think people read just enough to fly off to the response they want to make. It's been stated clearly several times.

I think that's the part that keeps getting missed. No body is saying that people should be doing high intesity exercise on an empty tank.

That's certainly the part I missed at first.

I hope to start bicycle commuting to work soon. It's 26 miles round trip, and uphill both ways -- no, really, it is. I live on a hill, my office is on a hill, and there's a valley in between.

I can't imagine doing this ride on an empty stomach. I can imagine doing 30 minutes of other exercise at home, eating breakfast, digesting a while, then biking to work.

Good to know!

That's certainly the part I missed at first.

I hope to start bicycle commuting to work soon. It's 26 miles round trip, and uphill both ways -- no, really, it is. I live on a hill, my office is on a hill, and there's a valley in between.

I can't imagine doing this ride on an empty stomach. I can imagine doing 30 minutes of other exercise at home, eating breakfast, digesting a while, then biking to work.

Good to know!

My goal is to ride to work as well and with a few weeks of riding at lunch I'll be ready with my distance. I'll probably start out by eating a very small meal like an apple or something. I've never had a problem if I didn't get my breakfast in

Well sure - and the dizziness is like having a few shots without the calories! http://www.yehoodi.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/icon_spineyes.gif

I can do without dizziness. :D

Anytime

+1.