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I'm having some 36-spoke Deep V's built up, and am considering what width tires to put on them. I'm 260, ride in the city, and I hate going out of true or getting flats, so I'm looking for pretty much maintenance free. Is it worthwhile to go to a wider tire (~29) or is this gonna slow me down on my 10-mile commute?
Thanks!
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32mm
Conti Ultra Gatorskins
Schwalbe Marathon+
Panaracer Pasela Tourguard
Panaracer Ruffy Tuffy
Specialized Armadillos
All of the above are high puncture resistance belted tires.
Gran Bois Cypress (favourite of many randonneurs for durability and nice feel)
32mm
Conti Ultra Gatorskins
Schwalbe Marathon+
Panaracer Pasela Tourguard
Panaracer Ruffy Tuffy
Specialized Armadillos
All of the above are high puncture resistance belted tires.
Gran Bois Cypress (favourite of many randonneurs for durability and nice feel)
+1 on those suggestions. I run deep v's with 25mm and 28mm gators. Very nice and very maintenance free.
...Specialized Armadillos...
+1
I've had success with the Michelin Krylion Carbons if you wanna roll a little faster. I'm running the armadillos right now.
I've had success with the Michelin Krylion Carbons if you wanna roll a little faster. I'm running the armadillos right now.
I have a set of Deep V's and the Krylions are a major, major, major, major PIA to get on and off these wheels. I love these tires, but trying to change a tube when I had one of my tires sliced just sucked and took me about 25 from the time I stopped to the getting going again. Typically I can replace a tube and get back on the road in less than 10 mins.
I put the stock tires that came with my CAAD9, Maxxis Fuse and they were easy to get on and off. I have about 250 miles on these tires now and they ride pretty nice. Good grip and roll pretty easy. Once these are done, I am going to try the Maxxis Columbiere’s
Did I mention the Krylions on the Deep V's were a major PIA???
Did I mention the Krylions on the Deep V's were a major PIA???
I agree, it takes some serious elbow grease to get those on and off with a tire lever, but I only had 3 flats in 4000 miles on my first set so it wasn't often that I had to work with them.
I'm having some 36-spoke Deep V's built up, and am considering what width tires to put on them. I'm 260, ride in the city, and I hate going out of true or getting flats, so I'm looking for pretty much maintenance free. Is it worthwhile to go to a wider tire (~29) or is this gonna slow me down on my 10-mile commute?
Thanks!
Out of true: That's the wheel build more than anything else and you should be fine with those (you're light than I am).
Wider tires will pick up more road debris and slow you down. If you're riding in a lot of sand that may be a better option but if it's all on road go with the skinniest you can. I'm running 23mm right now - wow it's a treat going up hills!
Oh yeah - and Gatorskins rock.
I'm having some 36-spoke Deep V's built up, and am considering what width tires to put on them. I'm 260, ride in the city, and I hate going out of true or getting flats, so I'm looking for pretty much maintenance free. Is it worthwhile to go to a wider tire (~29) or is this gonna slow me down on my 10-mile commute?
Thanks!
There are some rules about tires, a narrower tire has less rolling resistance, but needs a higher pressure to hold the same amount of weight, because of a smaller contact patch. The higher the pressure, the harder the tire, therefore the more road vibration that gets transmitted to the frame and rider. To prevent flats, don't run over stuff and/or use a tire that is more puncture resistant. A properly built and tensioned wheel, will take a long time to go out of true, some will wear the rims out from braking before needing truing.
It's not uncommon for touring bikes to run wider tires, some as wide as 40mm, because the lower pressure requirements make for a more comfortable ride. For a 10 mile commute, it probably doesn't make much difference, however some frames, particularly racing and racing like road frames are designed for narrow tires, and you can't fit a wide tire in there. You need to check your frame for width, to make sure there is enough room for a wider tire. If your frame is narrow, that limits your choices.
Gatorskins rock. I ran 700x25's all last season on my Giant, completely trouble free. Just picked up a second pair for my new Bianchi. As long as Conti keeps making them, I'll keep buying them.
-DR
I've got deep vs running 28 conti contacts on my fixed, they're cheap @ $20-22, they've got small treads but on the crappy roads here I can't even notice. I do a 20 mile r/t four days a week and like 30-50 on weekends.
I was about to start this same thread here. My 32 spoke sun m13s bang out of true on the regular, with 28s. I do have a lot of brick streets to contend with, and my 220-ish plus a bag full of crap pushed the weight higher. I've heard that Deep-Vs are overkill, but that doesn't take say 240 lbs into account, does it?
Sun rims I've been told from the mech section are fairly soft. If you're riding on bricks I'd go with the Deep Vs - they should take a beating. They'll be about the same price as any other new handbuilt wheel so why not.
There are some rules about tires, a narrower tire has less rolling resistance, but needs a higher pressure to hold the same amount of weight, because of a smaller contact patch. .....
The point of a narrower tire having less rolling resistance has been proven wrong in several tests (just one of them in the German magazine "Tour"). The disadvantages of wider tires are solely the additional weight (the importance of this obviously varies with your cycling style since it is rotating mass) and the possibly the added wind resistance.
Wider tires allow to reduce the air-pressure (more comfort) and still having less rolling resistance than the super narrow ones. AFAIR, the contact patch sizes has no influence on the rolling resistance. The differences are likely caused by the additional deformation work induced in narrower tires using the same pressure.
Info on rolling resistance and more:
http://www.schwalbetires.com/tech_info/rolling_resistance
That and there's less of a target to run over glass.
I was about to start this same thread here. My 32 spoke sun m13s bang out of true on the regular, with 28s. I do have a lot of brick streets to contend with, and my 220-ish plus a bag full of crap pushed the weight higher. I've heard that Deep-Vs are overkill, but that doesn't take say 240 lbs into account, does it?
There's a bunch of different deep section rims to choose from, but the Velocity Deep V is one of the most popular. It's strong, it's reasonably light for it's design, and it comes in a zillion colours.
If the only choice you want is silver or black, then there's the Mavic Cxp22 and Cxp33.
If you want no choices, then there's the Alex DA-28 which I think only comes in black.
Part of the popularity with the Deep V is the drilling pattern, since it's available in everything from a 24 (or maybe a 20) hole, up to a 48 hole drill for touring tandems, and sizes from 20" to 700c. Most others are only the standard choice of 32h or 36h drilled.
That being said, I ride Alex DA-16 32h wheels. I weigh 235 pounds and don't carry a lot of stuff for my commute. I ride 20-30 miles a day on anything from rough debris strewn roads, to clean roads, to an MUP that has root-humps on it that resemble residential speed bumps. :eek: The DA-16 is a double-wall rim so it's a little heavier, but it's strong and sort of a mid-section profile. A well built wheel shouldn't go out of true very often, even on brick streets.
That being said, I ride Alex DA-16 32h wheels. I weigh 235 pounds and don't carry a lot of stuff for my commute. I ride 20-30 miles a day on anything from rough debris strewn roads, to clean roads, to an MUP that has root-humps on it that resemble residential speed bumps. :eek: The DA-16 is a double-wall rim so it's a little heavier, but it's strong and sort of a mid-section profile. A well built wheel shouldn't go out of true very often, even on brick streets.
+1
I've put 3500 miles on my Alex DA-16's with Conti Ultra Gators 700x25's and until last week never had an issue. I rode over several RR tracks on a 45 mile ride and finally broke a spoke on the rear wheel. Took it to the shop had the spoke replaced and retrued and it rides as good as the day I bought it. They are a very durable wheelset.
might check the recommend tire sizes for your rim before you go buy 32mm check the rim. I would hate to purchase a new combination that did not work optimally together.
looking at velcoity's website they have a 19mm external, so ~17internal? http://sheldonbrown.com/tire-sizing.html thus 32 would seem to be smack in the middle of the range.
Eric
The point of a narrower tire having less rolling resistance has been proven wrong in several tests (just one of them in the German magazine "Tour"). The disadvantages of wider tires are solely the additional weight (the importance of this obviously varies with your cycling style since it is rotating mass) and the possibly the added wind resistance.
Wider tires allow to reduce the air-pressure (more comfort) and still having less rolling resistance than the super narrow ones. AFAIR, the contact patch sizes has no influence on the rolling resistance. The differences are likely caused by the additional deformation work induced in narrower tires using the same pressure.
Info on rolling resistance and more:
http://www.schwalbetires.com/tech_info/rolling_resistance
I expect the amount of wind resistance of a 35mm wide tire over a 23mm wide tire, is pretty small, when you have a 70cm (or wider) human sitting above those tires, and I don't expect that the 100g or so, means much when we are dealing with a total weight of over 100kg.
Okay, I hate when this happens, you repeat the old mantra, until someone tells you it's wrong, so you do the math, and find they are right (anyone got a smiley for D'oh!!). Here it goes for the rest of us.....
Say you have a 23mm wide tire, with a 1" x .5" contact patch, and a 200lb load (rider + bike + water + accessories), this means you have a 1/2 square inch contact patch (times 2) that means the gravitational force is 100PSI, now bicycles are not evenly weight distributed, it's more like 35/65 (F/R) so 130PSI is needed in the rear tire to overcome gravitational force, On the 35mm wide tire the contact patch is 1" x 1" we do the same math and get 65PSI needed to overcome gravitational force. If we run that 23mm tire at less then 130PSI, then we increase the deformation and rolling resistance over the wider tire at 65PSI.
For the 125lb rider on the 20lb bicycle (made of pure unobtainium) where the total load requires a pressure far less then the manufacturers maximum pressure rating on the tire, this doesn't make much difference. For larger riders, where the required pressure can be well over the recommended rated maximum, narrow tires can actually offer higher rolling resistance. This also tells us something else, for touring add weight to the front, before adding it to the rear, as you have more pressure room available there. Guess I need to pick up a bar bag for my camera gear now, fortunately the bike show starts tomorrow:D.
Did I hear a smilie request?
http://s35.photobucket.com/albums/d189/dimebar_probably/Smileys/th_DOh.gifhttp://img480.imageshack.us/img480/1662/doh4jw.gif
I'm riding a Deep V that I built on a 32 Ultegra hub 23 tires, 12,000 miles and still perfect!
If the only choice you want is silver or black, then there's the Mavic Cxp22 and Cxp33.
If you want no choices, then there's the Alex DA-28 which I think only comes in black.
But V's are 30 mm high, others are only 24'ish (?, not as deep as the V). Not familiar with the A28.
I'm running 23mm right now - wow it's a treat going up hills!
Oh yeah - and Gatorskins rock.
23mm - me too! I definitely recommend as narrow a tire that you can stand. Gatorskins are an amazingly durable tire.
I have Mavic Aksium Race wheelset and Armadillo tires 700 x 25. I weigh 245 and have not had a flat or problems in 1000 miles. FTW
But V's are 30 mm high, others are only 24'ish (?, not as deep as the V). Not familiar with the A28.
The DA-28 is a 27mm profile. If you want the 30mm height, another option is the DT Swiss RR 1.2, although it's 65gm heavier than the Velocity Deep V
Since this has become a tire discussion I'll ask my questions here. I'm picking up my Lemond Poprad Disc(cyclocross) this Saturday. This will be my commuter. What size tires do you recommend I run? I plan to use either Bontrager race lite hardcase or Specialized Armadillos. I was planning on running either 700x28 or 700x32 but should I go wider ? Another question is does pressure have an effect on wheel stress. What I mean is, it seams to me that running lower pressure the tires would absorb some of the shock from the road.
Armadillos give a harsh ride b/c of the stiff side wall. A 28 Ultra Gatorskin gives a much plusher ride and they wear well. I'm 230 lbs. and I run the rear tire at 100psi and the front at 90.
What I mean is, it seams to me that running lower pressure the tires would absorb some of the shock from the road.A tire's ability to absorb road imperfections is always going to be a partial effect, at best and far more severe damage can occur to the wheel from the combination of underinflation, a heavier rider and bad roads. The tires perform best at their recommended inflation. Also, thinner tires, as Air said are giving him a better ride up hills; less rolling resistance. If it's comfort you are looking for, I wouldn't look to the times for that; I'd use tires for gripping, durability and easy rolling.
Doc , you might contact this member.
http://www.bikeforums.net/member.php?u=49969 (urbanknight), and in recent conversation with him, he sure seems to understand the needs of a Clyde. He used to build wheels for Clyde racers, among other things. I suspect he'd have some really good feedback for you if nothing else.
I'm trying to build a regional database of wheelbuilders. He's out in Pasadena, Ca, but looks to have an interesting rate on build labor.I'm having some 36-spoke Deep V's built up, and am considering what width tires to put on them. I'm 260, ride in the city, and I hate going out of true or getting flats, so I'm looking for pretty much maintenance free. Is it worthwhile to go to a wider tire (~29) or is this gonna slow me down on my 10-mile commute?
Thanks!
....Also, thinner tires, as Air said are giving him a better ride up hills; less rolling resistance. Not exactly: (e.g http://www.schwalbetires.com/tech_info/rolling_resistance)
Wider tires are more comfortable in any case and the rolling resistance has been discussed in this thread before - it is actually less for wider tires and the rolling resitance is the same uphill, downhill, or flat.
Thinner tires are obvioulsy lighter and this is an advantage if you change the pace a lot and if you climb a lot.
Challenge question for the thinner tires does not equal less rolling resistance people.
Just rode over some wet metal plates and grates for the first time with the 23mm tires. Everytime the bike went crazy, no traction and I did everything I could to keep from dumping. Never happened with the 1 1/4 (same tread), 1.5 (close to the same slick tread), 1.75 (again, a slick) or 1.95 (sorta slick in the middle with about 1" of contact) tires even though they all should have the same resistance.
Why?
The narrower tire has a thinner contact patch, which mens less surface to grip with if lateral traction is needed. Less rolling resistance is a function of reduced footprint and surface friction, partially and there are tradeoffs in a lateral traction situation. ;)
EDIT: I just looked at the Schwalbe site and what they say is correct if both tires are run at identical pressure, say 120 PSI. The wider tire at 120 is going to have less deflection than the narrower one. The tradeoff there is the wider tire is also going to be built a LOT lighter to reduce the rotational mass to match the narrower tire and sacrifice a lot of the toughness assumed in a wider tire. The main advantage to a wider tire is that it can be run at a lower pressure and sustain the same deflection, in which case the rolling resistance is higher with the wider tire and the rotational energy requirements from mass are always going to be higher unless the tire structure is compromised for minimizing mass, as I mentioned above.
Conclusion: Under certain special conditions, a wider tire CAN match the rolling resistance of a narrower high pressure tire, at a compromise to it's durability and reliability as well as negating the smoother ride characteristics.
Challenge question for the thinner tires does not equal less rolling resistance people.
Just rode over some wet metal plates and grates for the first time with the 23mm tires. Everytime the bike went crazy, no traction and I did everything I could to keep from dumping. Never happened with the 1 1/4 (same tread), 1.5 (close to the same slick tread), 1.75 (again, a slick) or 1.95 (sorta slick in the middle with about 1" of contact) tires even though they all should have the same resistance.
Why?
Hi there. Newb alert, just beware ;) I'm looking for a 27"x 1.25" wheel as that is what came with the bike I bought, a Miyata Nimbus. I put a new set of Armadillo's on it last week, but would like to get some performance rims prior to the tour de cure run in May. Any suggestions?
If you are going to change out the wheels, why not convert to 700C? You can have a set built if you have hubs for a reasonable price. The only potential issue would be brake reach, since 700C are about 4MM smaller in radius than 27", or 630 mm rims. Chances are good with that Miyata that you'll have enough brake reach though since it was really designed around a European and Asian market and also marketed here in the US.
It should be 126MM hubs if it has 27" wheels, by the way, unless it's from the 1970's, in which case it might have 120MM. Make sure though before you order hubs......;)
I'm having some 36-spoke Deep V's built up, and am considering what width tires to put on them. I'm 260, ride in the city, and I hate going out of true or getting flats, so I'm looking for pretty much maintenance free. Is it worthwhile to go to a wider tire (~29) or is this gonna slow me down on my 10-mile commute?
Thanks!
I have a set of 700x23 Specialized Armadillos on deep v 36 spoke rims and have ridden this bike now for over a year on the rough streets of NYC. Started riding the configuration when I got down to 325 pounds. I am now 278 (down from 360) and have not bent any rims, and have not gotten any flats while riding. I did do a bike tour and wound up with a flat the next morning once.
Matty in Brooklyn
Hi there. Newb alert, just beware ;) I'm looking for a 27"x 1.25" wheel as that is what came with the bike I bought, a Miyata Nimbus. I put a new set of Armadillo's on it last week, but would like to get some performance rims prior to the tour de cure run in May. Any suggestions?
As an FYI you probably have 27" by 1 1/4. Though you'd think it was true (I did) 1/4 does not equal .25. Check it out (http://sheldonbrown.com/tire-sizing.html):
Brown's Law Of Tire Sizing:
If two tires are marked with sizes that are mathematically equal,
but one is expressed as a decimal and the other as a fraction,
these two tires will not be interchangeable.
I have a set of 700x23 Specialized Armadillos on deep v 36 spoke rims and have ridden this bike now for over a year on the rough streets of NYC. Started riding the configuration when I got down to 325 pounds. I am now 278 (down from 360) and have not bent any rims, and have not gotten any flats while riding. I did do a bike tour and wound up with a flat the next morning once.
Matty in Brooklyn
MATTY!!!!! How are you doing my friend!
278 - that's phenomenal! You're lighter than I am now - that mean you'll start to kick my arse on our weekly rides? ;)
MATTY!!!!! How are you doing my friend!
278 - that's phenomenal! You're lighter than I am now - that mean you'll start to kick my arse on our weekly rides? ;)
I dunno, the last real "ride of substance" was with you last year, so you have been much more "bike-active" then I.
But I have been doing the stationary bike for an hour a day at 90 rpms in the local gym.
Cant wait to see what happens on our rides
Matty in Brooklyn
I dunno, the last real "ride of substance" was with you last year, so you have been much more "bike-active" then I.
But I have been doing the stationary bike for an hour a day at 90 rpms in the local gym.
Cant wait to see what happens on our rides
Matty in Brooklyn
sorry for the thread-jack, but...
http://www.laughlin.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/web/070912-F-5667C-001.jpg
take Matty's advice, he plows the way for us...
Wow! Now I feel special!
Thanks Steve
I'm having some 36-spoke Deep V's built up, and am considering what width tires to put on them. I'm 260, ride in the city, and I hate going out of true or getting flats, so I'm looking for pretty much maintenance free. Is it worthwhile to go to a wider tire (~29) or is this gonna slow me down on my 10-mile commute?
Thanks!
If your weather is like it is here, how about snow tires :mad::cry::cry::cry:
Wow! Now I feel special!
Thanks Steve
don't get overconfident now; I will still kick yer butt :D
as for the OP, I still recommend the Conti Gatorskins, as thin as possible...
I have Schwalbe Marathon Racers on my bike. They are a long lasting 28c tire. They also strike me as what you are looking for.
http://www.schwalbetires.com/marathon_racer
They are listed as 30c on the website... but when you pull them out of the box it says 28c on the sidewall; and that's what they are.
As an FYI you probably have 27" by 1 1/4. Though you'd think it was true (I did) 1/4 does not equal .25. Check it out (http://sheldonbrown.com/tire-sizing.html):
Interesting. Yes, it is 27 x 1 and 1/4.
The reasons for the better (i.e. decreased) rolling resistance of wider tires are perhaps best summarized in this blog: http://rouesartisanales.over-blog.com/article-1503651.html; which has also been discussed in this thread previously http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=312227&page=2.
The data from the rouesartisanales blog post are likely from an older test in the german magazine "tour" . The same magazine did an extensive test already in 1994 where they showed the discussed advantages in more detail (I could not find a PDF or similar websource for this test); newer test are available (please see below) but they did no repeat the wide<>narrow tire comparisons because of redundancy.
The easier rolling of wider tires could be especially interesting for us heavier cyclists since we are likely to use higher pressures anyhow and perhaps cycle a bit slower than the pros on average. I do not suggest that I would be able to feel the differences between tire of the same make in different sizes ( I believe one is much more likely to experience the slower acceleration).
The newest "tour" test is available here (German only, sorry). It shows that many clincher tires have a better rolling resistance than the best tubular tires, which are nevertheless chosen by the pros (ability to use 200 psi pressures ?; availability of superlight carbon rims for tubulars ).
http://www.conti-online.com/generator/www/de/de/continental/fahrrad/allgemein/news/download/tourtest_de.pdf
Tom's arguments seem to circumvent some important factors.
There does not have to be anything wrong with running wider tires at the same pressure as your narrow tires - and one would still have the wide tire advantages. For example the Ultra Gatorskins come in 23mm, 25mm, and 28 mm with the same max . pressure and without any noticeable built differences (other than size; I have not heard of any reduced toughness of the 28mm version nor have I encountered it). Running the 28mm's at the same pressure at the 23mm's at exactly the same pressure one could enjoy the lower rolling resistance and increased comfort already because of the larger diameter of the tire and the larger volume.
Thus I find Toms conclusion a bit misleading.
.....Conclusion: Under certain special conditions, a wider tire CAN match the rolling resistance of a narrower high pressure tire, at a compromise to it's durability and reliability as well as negating the smoother ride characteristics.
The "certain special conditions" are the ones worth discussing because there are good experimental data ( and apparently theoretical calculations) available to make a discussion meaningful. And the available data do not show that the wider tires "can match" narrower tires. Other factors being equal they show some sizable advantages in rolling resistance. I have no clue why the durability or reliability of the 28mm Gatorskin should be compromised as compared to the 23 mm version.
Regarding Air's challenge question:
....
Just rode over some wet metal plates and grates for the first time with the 23mm tires. Everytime the bike went crazy, no traction and I did everything I could to keep from dumping. Never happened with the 1 1/4 (same tread), 1.5 (close to the same slick tread), 1.75 (again, a slick) or 1.95 (sorta slick in the middle with about 1" of contact) tires even though they all should have the same resistance.
Why?
Your observation might not be relevant to the problem of rolling resistance. The rolling resistance is, according to the articles I have seen not (or only very, very little) caused by the rubber interacting with the street surface (and gripping it?). The rolling resistance seems to be mostly caused by the necessary deformations inside the tire itself.
In the end, a bit more or less, rolling resistance will certainly not make or break the cycling experience; I can attest to the increased comfort of 28 mm tires, however. *And the randonneur riders using even wider tires for very long distances might not be averse to efficiency either.* * ;-)
The narrower tire has a thinner contact patch, which mens less surface to grip with if lateral traction is needed. Less rolling resistance is a function of reduced footprint and surface friction, partially and there are tradeoffs in a lateral traction situation. ;)
EDIT: I just looked at the Schwalbe site and what they say is correct if both tires are run at identical pressure, say 120 PSI. The wider tire at 120 is going to have less deflection than the narrower one. The tradeoff there is the wider tire is also going to be built a LOT lighter to reduce the rotational mass to match the narrower tire and sacrifice a lot of the toughness assumed in a wider tire. The main advantage to a wider tire is that it can be run at a lower pressure and sustain the same deflection, in which case the rolling resistance is higher with the wider tire and the rotational energy requirements from mass are always going to be higher unless the tire structure is compromised for minimizing mass, as I mentioned above.
Conclusion: Under certain special conditions, a wider tire CAN match the rolling resistance of a narrower high pressure tire, at a compromise to it's durability and reliability as well as negating the smoother ride characteristics.
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