"The 33"-Road Bike Racing - Power Meters, Bikesnob, PowerTaps, and SRMs... the conundrum

As Bikesnob pointed out, there's an obsession (http://bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=394442) with PMs these days.

I've been back in the US for a few weeks, and have spotted power meters on every group ride that I've done. So far, I'd say that one of the riders actually merited it, and the rest were window dressing. :shrug:

At risk of joining the BSNYC club of scorn, I've been hemming and hawwing about getting a power meter for years. One of my best friends has been using a SRM for 6 years. This was initially a practical decision on his part: there are no group rides of note where he lives. I've seen first hand how much stronger he's become.

So, the quandary: powertap (used) soon, powertap (new) soonish, SRM sometime in the future.

Here's some snippets from an exchange about PTs and SRMs with my friend:


I would NOT buy a Powertap, just not reliable. I saw the box of spares the <pro team's name removed by me> mechanics have to carry with them. Better to save the money up and buy an SRM when you can afford one, you will not regret it.

New wireless SRM's on their way too, so you may pick up an older version cheaper...Competitive Cyclist were doing a great price.

next email, after i mentioned i'm looking at deals on ebay


USED?

Man, you are crazy.

How do you work guarantee and everything?

You will go through hubs like there is no tomorrow. It is not even a nicely made hub, and you should see the internals....

I did not save up and buy <SO's name removed by me> an SRM because I like shelling out loads of cash....

I'm thinking go cheap, try and find a PT for +/-750 now, and save for an SRM in the next year, or two.

So... fellow RBR, any thoughts on this matter?

I would go with the used ptap for now, save up for the SRM-keep an eye on slowtwitch, and when you get the srm, sell the Ptap.

Think of the consequences man! You wouldn't be able to rip on those with a powermeter if you were part of the fold. First Waterrockets, then you... I mean we all saw Pcad's coming, but, but... What would Bongo say?

I have two PT's and sometimes they do give funny readings or drop out, but this is probably something like one minute or less per hour of riding. As long as it gives me consistent readings and I am fine with it. The sooner you get it the sooner you can train with power. That being said, if I had the cash I would get an SRM. PT's hold their value well though especially if you get a used one. Chances are you could get most of your money back when you move to the SRM.

Used is no problem, in my experience. Saris has excellent customer service.

As I've mentioned before, buying used and selling used has only small net loss. Personally I think I could sell a PT for $100 more than I'd buy it for, but I'm patient on eBay.

Think of the consequences man! You wouldn't be able to rip on those with a powermeter if you were part of the fold. First Waterrockets, then you... I mean we all saw Pcad's coming, but, but... What would Bongo say?

I have no issues with people who have PMs.

My problem is the slew of tedious graphs that bombard the forum. ;)

Just get SRM to begin with. If you don't get PT now you already have ~750 towards SRM.
Just curious who do you think actually "merits" a powermeter?

Used is no problem, in my experience. Saris has excellent customer service.

As I've mentioned before, buying used and selling used has only small net loss. Personally I think I could sell a PT for $100 more than I'd buy it for, but I'm patient on eBay.

ok, therein lies the main question: what happens when the battery dies on a used PT hub?

I have no issues with people who have PMs.

My problem is the slew of tedious graphs that bombard the forum. ;)

I don't really either, but can't even begin to justify the purchase for myself.

ok, therein lies the main question: what happens when the battery dies on a used PT hub?

I take the covers off and put in new batteries, back on the road in 10 minutes or so. Don't know if it's changed on newer PT's.

ok, therein lies the main question: what happens when the battery dies on a used PT hub?

What do you think happens? The elves come and replace it during the night?


You replace the battery!!!

I take the covers off and put in new batteries, back on the road in 10 minutes or so. Don't know if it's changed on newer PT's.

Pretty much the same except you have to use a tool to twist off the cover.

I bought a used PowerTap (BDCheung's Old One) and it has been flawless. I've went through 1 set of batteries et all (hub, chest strap, computer) and I've been using it for 2800 km's (1700 miles) on top of however many miles BDCheung put on them so they shouldn't be a problem. Batteries were easy to find at a local store and breeze to replace.
For the wheel itself, if you go PowerTap I'd go with a bombproof rim. I have mine on a Velocity Deep-V and have had no truing troubles.
I have gotten the occasional drop out as mentioned, it happens about once, maybe twice a month, and is a 1-2 second blip where no data shows. It's really no big deal for me.

botto, I don't merit a PowerTap for sure, but I did get one as a gift. I'm still working on testing, as my riding has been very sporadic. I see it helping me this year with both my fast group rides and TT's, time will tell.

I bought a new 2.4 wireless, and it as worked flawlessly except one cold ride in the rain where it dropped out for 2/3 miles. While I love a deal, I wanted new for the warranty and the new PT's seem to be performing much better then the pervious versions. I also wanted to support my new LBS, so I paid through the nose.

The final kicker was software, since the Saris software runs on a MAC, I wouldn't need to run windows on my MAC or use an old PC. Saris just announced a new update that really looks good.

Not sure how many sets of wheels you use regularly but the SRM is more accomodating, easily moved between bikes, and based on everything I've heard and read from various users, less quirky and more reliable. Pay the freight and don't give it a second thought.

I've been eying a PM as well. An SRM is way out of my legue for cash flow, the Quarq looks very interesting from the standpoint of open source and developing your own programs for that thing.
The ergomo power meter I find appealing, since it goes into the bottom bracket and can be used with different cranks it seems.
The power tap seems to be the most cost effective solution to get decent training with a power meter.

I'll wait till next year.

What do you think happens? The elves come and replace it during the night?


You replace the battery!!!

Let me rephrase my question: what happens vis-a-vis the PT warranty?

Are they a 'no questions asked' company?

My used Power Tap works fine so far, and that's in the dead of winter with freezing temps, which it doesn't really like. Pcad, however, remains a poseur with a Power Tap laced to a Zipp 404 rim.

Nothing wrong with that boys. After all, Bike Schwag is its own reward. Hell, it's worth it just for that b. Worry about whether you'll actually use the stupid thing later.

They have never asked me if I was the original owner. They have sent me replacement components (computer) with no compensation.

Honestly I've never had better customer service in my life than Saris.

Not sure how many sets of wheels you use regularly but the SRM is more accomodating, easily moved between bikes, and based on everything I've heard and read from various users, less quirky and more reliable. Pay the freight and don't give it a second thought.

How is the SRM more easily moved between bikes?.... Doesn't even seem possible...

As Bikesnob pointed out, there's an obsession (http://bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=394442) with PMs these days.

I've been back in the US for a few weeks, and have spotted power meters on every group ride that I've done. So far, I'd say that one of the riders actually merited it, and the rest were window dressing. :shrug:

At risk of joining the BSNYC club of scorn, I've been hemming and hawwing about getting a power meter for years. One of my best friends has been using a SRM for 6 years. This was initially a practical decision on his part: there are no group rides of note where he lives. I've seen first hand how much stronger he's become.

So, the quandary: powertap (used) soon, powertap (new) soonish, SRM sometime in the future.

Here's some snippets from an exchange about PTs and SRMs with my friend:



next email, after i mentioned i'm looking at deals on ebay



I'm thinking go cheap, try and find a PT for +/-750 now, and save for an SRM in the next year, or two.So... fellow RBR, any thoughts on this matter?

I'm actually speechless. It is if I had just discovered that Klimpt, Close or Johns had begun to believe that painting by numbers was true art. :( I'm sure there is a benefit...but will the world ever be the same. Doesn't the world need hungover Euro cyclist with inherent skills on race day to keep purity in the sport.

Sorry Botto...It sounds so Armstrong. Must be the PBR and American junk food that has you looking at Power Meters. ;)

Let me rephrase my question: what happens vis-a-vis the PT warranty?

Are they a 'no questions asked' company?

No problems. In fact, if you have any trouble with the hub the first thing they usually tell you to do is replace the batteries! No warranty issues or anything like that. The battery compartment is separate from the other electronics so there's no chance to fudge anything.

How is the SRM more easily moved between bikes?.... Doesn't even seem possible...

You buy a second harness, move the control unit, unscrew a bolt or two and and move the cranks. After you've done it once it takes all of, oh, roughly...5 minutes.

No problems. In fact, if you have any trouble with the hub the first thing they usually tell you to do is replace the batteries! No warranty issues or anything like that. The battery compartment is separate from the other electronics so there's no chance to fudge anything.

and if there's an electronic issue?

I'm actually speechless. It is if I had just discovered that Klimpt, Close or Johns had begun to believe that painting by numbers was true art. :( I'm sure there is a benefit...but will the world ever be the same. Doesn't the world need hungover Euro cyclist with inherent skills on race day to keep purity in the sport.

Sorry Botto...It sounds so Armstrong. Must be the PBR and American junk food that has you looking at Power Meters. ;)

sorry to disappoint, but i'm a lazy trainer. i need group rides to push, and that's sometimes inconvenient.

besides, i've been using a HRM since 1990, so it's not as if i'm a total luddite, just currently out of touch.

Let me rephrase my question: what happens vis-a-vis the PT warranty?

Are they a 'no questions asked' company?

Funny,
I have two powertaps- check out slowtwitch for a great deal.
I have been on the phone to Saris half a dozen times. I told them up-front, I bought them used, one is an old Ptap standard, and the other is a Ptap pro, about 4 years old.
They spent time on the phone talking me through the firmware upgrade for one of the cpu's.
They also offered to do it for me, gratis, if I wanted to send it in.
I use a Mac, after figuring it out it is very straight forward. I will use it as a cycle computer only, during hilly races, when I want to use my light wheels.
I have no problems with it and find the graphs helpful and easy to read, it is a big help doing LT's with power rather than HR alone.

My used Power Tap works fine so far, and that's in the dead of winter with freezing temps, which it doesn't really like. Pcad, however, remains a poseur with a Power Tap laced to a Zipp 404 rim.

Nothing wrong with that boys. After all, Bike Schwag is its own reward. Hell, it's worth it just for that b. Worry about whether you'll actually use the stupid thing later.

your man Glen sold off a used PT for 729$ on ebay yesterday. i almost made a bid...

sorry to disappoint, but i'm a lazy trainer. i need group rides to push, and that's sometimes inconvenient.

besides, i've been using a HRM since 1990, so it's not as if i'm a total luddite, just currently out of touch.

So you think seeing a low power number will be more motivating than seeing a low HR?

$750 buys a lot of beer and group riding is fun.

They have never asked me if I was the original owner. They have sent me replacement components (computer) with no compensation.

Honestly I've never had better customer service in my life than Saris.

Saris is really the best. Very impressed with the PT overall, with a couple of gripes, but how can you gripe when Saris is so responsive? Very happy with the PT so far, and Saris' response to my emails helps a lot with that. By the way I replaced the batteries in the hub, the head unit and the chest strap, everything works fine. My only real issue is I don't understand why a $1000 + PTap SL has an LCD that loses contrast in sub 45ºF temps, but my $50 bike computers don't. But that's minor, the unit does function and does retain data, even if it's a bit hard to read at times in colder weather. Once things warm up, it's fine, and again, it never loses functionality. It's the real deal, that's why so many pros do use it. Is an SRM better? It should be for double the price. But on the Zipp 404 clincher I can put this PT on several bikes and race it. The clincher rim makes it suitable for training too. I combine it with a Zipp tubie front and I have a Zippified racing setup with a PM.

Let me rephrase my question: what happens vis-a-vis the PT warranty?

Are they a 'no questions asked' company?

I just bought a PT off ebay, and called saris about a bad wiring harness and they are sending me a new one no questions asked except which model.

So you think seeing a low power number will be more motivating than seeing a low HR?

yep.


$750 buys a lot of beer and group riding is fun.

agreed. only problem is that sometimes my schedule does not correlate with the groups.

I am actually interested in that point where "someone actually merits it" vs "window dressing". I was shopping a set of carbon wheels last week and after finding the range of what I wanted was 1400 -2100, I took a step back, and thought "putting the cart before the horse a bit, aren't we?"

I now have a couple mileposts in mind before that type of outlay.

So, where in the training/racing continuum would you say-Now you need a PM - without looking like a window dresser?

botto - get a new PT and when you're ready to trade up to SRM, I'll take it off your hands.

EVERYONE can benefit from a power meter. You can be you're own coach. Read a book or two, then come on here and read. Then come on here and brag.

If you have the means...

I just bought a PT off ebay, and called saris about a bad wiring harness and they are sending me a new one no questions asked except which model.

Damn, I just paid $70 for one.

I am actually interested in that point where "someone actually merits it" vs "window dressing". I was shopping a set of carbon wheels last week and after finding the range of what I wanted was 1400 -2100, I took a step back, and thought "putting the cart before the horse a bit, aren't we?"

I now have a couple mileposts in mind before that type of outlay.

So, where in the training/racing continuum would you say-Now you need a PM - without looking like a window dresser?

botto - get a new PT and when you're ready to trade up to SRM, I'll take it off your hands.

it seemed to me that the guy who struggled in a paceline that was only riding at 35 kph, should spend more time training, and less money on schwag.

just sayin'

Saris is really the best. Very impressed with the PT overall, with a couple of gripes, but how can you gripe when Saris is so responsive? Very happy with the PT so far, and Saris' response to my emails helps a lot with that. By the way I replaced the batteries in the hub, the head unit and the chest strap, everything works fine. My only real issue is I don't understand why a $1000 + PTap SL has an LCD that loses contrast in sub 45ºF temps, but my $50 bike computers don't. But that's minor, the unit does function and does retain data, even if it's a bit hard to read at times in colder weather. Once things warm up, it's fine, and again, it never loses functionality. It's the real deal, that's why so many pros do use it. Is an SRM better? It should be for double the price. But on the Zipp 404 clincher I can put this PT on several bikes and race it. The clincher rim makes it suitable for training too. I combine it with a Zipp tubie front and I have a Zippified racing setup with a PM.

p' "I left my glasses in the car" cad
http://www.bouldervision.com/blury-chart.gif

I am currently in day 2 of a week long PT rental and my eyes have been opened. It's amazing to see effort that I am actually putting in (or not putting in) on a ride. Percieved effort is way off compared to actual watts produced. I was cruising allong at a pretty good clip thinking I was working hard and I looked down at the meter and I was only producing 200 watts. A little tail wind and a smooth road can be very deceiving as to the speed vs power perception. I can see this as an extremely efficient training tool. I am not sure I can justify the expense right now but if I start taking the racing thing a little more seriously I might. I can't wait for my group ride on Friday morning.

My girlfriend and I both have PTs on our bikes, and both have been great. I raced with mine all last season and it still works perfectly. Did a stomp test on it and the torque registered with less than 1% error. Sure, we've (I've) changed at least our fair share of batteries, but that just means we're doing a lot of riding, right? The one weakness in the PT is the insulation on the harness wire. If you use zip ties around the wire, and pull them tight enough to even slightly crimp the insulation, you'll almost certainly -- eventually -- cut through one of the four tiny wires inside. I've done this twice; now the wires for both PTs are attached to the bikes only with tape.

By the way, I've gotten pretty good at splicing broken PT cables. On that note: If anyone has a broken shark-fin wiring harness, I'll buy it off you (cheap). PM me.

sorry to disappoint, but i'm a lazy trainer. i need group rides to push, and that's sometimes inconvenient.

besides, i've been using a HRM since 1990, so it's not as if i'm a total luddite, just currently out of touch.

I prefer effete snob, myself.

If I were going to go the power route, I would go used powertap myself as a new SRM cost more than my current bike...

You can find deals on used SRM's too...their customer service is quite good, though I've never had to use it. Multiple wheelsets...

You can find deals on used SRM's too...their customer service is quite good, though I've never had to use it. Multiple wheelsets...

my buddy has gone through a few SRMs (the older cold forged cranks tended to break). they took care of him in style. maybe that's why he has 3 of them (1 pro, 1 DA, and 1 DA compact) on various bikes, and bought another for his GF.

if i had ample amounts of expendable cash, i'd get the SRM. no doubt.

I bought one to max my training in the time that I had available....Last year business was sort of slow and I had a lot of time to ride. This year is a bit different. I will need to do more training in less time on the bike. I hope to not loose the guys I ride with in the process..we will see.

I don't think I fall in to the ornament PT user....BUT I am sure my bike is a few steps above what I deserve or need....lol

I got a powertap in January. I am, in the first week of march, already stronger than I was at any point last year WITH a very good coach and already racing cat 2/semi-pro. The high-end is obviously not as finely tuned, but my FTP is at the same level it was last august, at my last test of the summer.

If you want to be faster, get one. If you want to have another piece of cool schwag, get one. Whatever your justification, and I'm sure you can think up many, just get one. Powertap, SRM, ergomo, it doesn't matter.

my buddy has gone through a few SRMs (the older cold forged cranks tended to break). they took care of him in style. maybe that's why he has 3 of them (1 pro, 1 DA, and 1 DA compact) on various bikes, and bought another for his GF.

if i had ample amounts of expendable cash, i'd get the SRM. no doubt.

but think about the application as well, botto. if this is for belgium, well, it's pretty flat. except for a few bumps some really good riders are going over in about a month. anyway, if your riding over there is such that you can train and race on the same set of wheels, a PT is a good cost-effective option. if you plan on doing more than flatland riding, or you have training wheels and race wheels, i think the SRM option would be better, even if it means you have to wait a few extra months. why buy something knowing that you're already planning on replacing it? if you have multiple wheelsets and can get the SRM by waiting just a short while longer, i think that's the smart move

From everything I've ever heard, I'd save your pennies and get a used SRM off of Slowtwitch or something. As of late, the prices seem to have gone down second hand. You might even be able to find a used amateur model sub-$1000.

I was really nervous about the reliability when I got mine. Mine had been serviced in March of 2007. Ok, that's good, I guess, but that means that it needed service in March of 2007. Ugh.

Well, I got over that hurdle, and have found it to be quite reliable. Now, I've gotten so much value out of it, that I wouldn't think twice about paying the $200 standard service charge when something finally does go wrong. It really is worth some extra cost -- and I'm quite frugal, if you hadn't figured that out from my 8-year-old race bike and the 5-bolt TT bike conversion kit.

I don't see myself going for an SRM. Just too much money, even used. My PT SL was $680 shipped, it works awesome, and I don't use multiple wheelsets.

[edit] I just read UT_Dude's SRM price update there... that's pretty cool. Still, another $320 over what I paid...

My first powertap had some issues with the signal dropping out for extended periods. They fixed the problem no questions asked. I think I had to pay for the shipping to get it to Saris. It took maybe 2 weeks and I don't know what they did, but I got a new freehub body also.

Short Version: PT's may or may not be reliable, but their customer service has been outstanding for me.

B.

can't use ksyrium rear with pt botto as you prob know. can someone who rides in cold wet for 3/4 of the year (Pac NW) chime in on reliability as that is what this unit will see.

I'd say save your money for now and wait. When quarq 1.1 comes out there'll be some options in the ANT+SPORT arena (SRM/QUARQ/GARMIN) that'll be worth looking at.

And pciddy, I said 1.1, not 1.0.

i think if buying an SRM isnt an easy thing for you to do you should just go with the "cheaper" option of the power tap. SRM is a lot of money for something you havent tried out yet and as shown on this thread PTs are always selling on ebay pretty easily. I think the ideal thing to do is buy a PT and if you want an SRM later you can easily sell the PT and put the money towards it.

Why go through the trouble of saving all that money up for an SRM when there is the chance it may not really do anything for you? You could find out a lot sooner if you just go with the PT.