Mountain Biking - New bike, few shifting problems.

Hey guys, just picked up my new bike. Its a Specialized Hardrock Comp. I have a few questions about the shifting. It doesn't shift easy into the highest cog in the rear or the highest in the front. I can make it shift by hold the shift nob down and putting a little more pressure on it. I want to adjust it so I can shift it on the fly. I know how to adjust the derailleur, but I'm not sure if this is the issue.

Are you cross-chaining?

Hey guys, just picked up my new bike. Its a Specialized Hardrock Comp. I have a few questions about the shifting. It doesn't shift easy into the highest cog in the rear or the highest in the front. I can make it shift by hold the shift nob down and putting a little more pressure on it. I want to adjust it so I can shift it on the fly. I know how to adjust the derailleur, but I'm not sure if this is the issue.

When shifting the front rings it's normal to have to hold the shifter down for a few extra moments.

Are you cross-chaining?
If by cross-chaining you mean being stuck between 2 gears then yes, but only on the front smallest cog, but only when downshifting.
Took it around the block after adjusting the height of the derailleur it self since it was to low. Anyway I found out the the rear will shift by holding the lever down for an extra second. You guys said this is normal. Well after switching through all the gears I noticed the the front wont shift into its low gear unless I stop the bike and turn the pedal slowly with my hand while holding down the trigger.

Time to go singlespeed.. haha

Did you buy this bike from an LBS? Shouldn't they have adjusted it properly?

On the other hand, if you are knowledgeable enough to set the front derailleur height, then I would think you would know enough to do the other geartrain adjustments.

It's common for new bikes to have issues like that.
Maybe try to re-adjust everything yourself,if that doesn't work go to your LBS.

Also, cross chaining is when your trying to ride like this for example, Innermost Front, Outter most Rear.
or vica versa. It doesn't work to well and shifting may be a little sloppy untill the chain is not crossed

Did you buy this bike from an LBS? Shouldn't they have adjusted it properly?

On the other hand, if you are knowledgeable enough to set the front derailleur height, then I would think you would know enough to do the other geartrain adjustments.

Bought it used from someone off craigslist. I just learned how to set the derailleur height and all. I'm still new to mountain bikes.

It's common for new bikes to have issues like that.
Maybe try to re-adjust everything yourself,if that doesn't work go to your LBS.

Also, cross chaining is when your trying to ride like this for example, Innermost Front, Outter most Rear.
or vica versa. It doesn't work to well and shifting may be a little sloppy untill the chain is not crossed

Is it? How many new bikes have you owned?

Bought it used from someone off craigslist. I just learned how to set the derailleur height and all. I'm still new to mountain bikes.

Go to parktool.com, find the bike map, find the derailleur adjustments, and start at the beginning. Do the front and the rear. I think Park has great instructions, and I've used that site many times.

Here's a link (http://www.parktool.com/repair/byregion.asp?catid=53)

Might want to change your cables while you're at it. Unless you know they are somewhat newish.

Is it? How many new bikes have you owned?

Well, Cheeto is right, but not by experience.

All of my bikes have shifting problems until the cables stretch, and my LBS tells me thats normal anyway.

Well, Cheeto is right, but not by experience.

All of my bikes have shifting problems until the cables stretch, and my LBS tells me thats normal anyway.

Are we starting this again?

Are we starting this again?

What? All cables need to stretch and then be readjusted to make up for it.

And what's wrong with listening to my LBS?

Double Post. M'bad.

I may take it to the lbs next week to have them tune it and maybe teach me a few things about doing it myself next time. I read the directions on the park tool site but I'd also like to see it in person with a teacher. Thanks for the help guys, much appreciated.

What? All cables need to stretch and then be readjusted to make up for it.

And what's wrong with listening to my LBS?


Little reading:

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=286346&highlight=cable+stretch

And there was just a recent thread on the topic as well.

Little reading:

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=286346&highlight=cable+stretch

And there was just a recent thread on the topic as well.

From what I read, everyone agrees that cables stretch. Did I miss something? Checking....

From what I read, everyone agrees that cables stretch. Did I miss something? Checking....

I used to as well. Read a little here, read a little there, and then it makes sense that the forces applied to a cable while shifting aren't enough to cause "stretch" in a steel wire.

I used to as well. Read a little here, read a little there, and then it makes sense that the forces applied to a cable while shifting aren't enough to cause "stretch" in a steel wire.

Well, obviously something is changing in the first month of a new bike. In the first month, everything goes out of wack. From then on it seems relatively stable.

It's more that the cable housings "seat" into the frame, cable housing ends, shifters, etc than it is that they "stretch".


not the inners stretching. it's the outer coating shrinking up a bit... getting pulled around as the cables and bike move. the inner wires are "compressionless" but the outer plastic coating is much less compression resistant.

Did you actually read it?

Did you actually read it?

Yes, but those were not the generally accepted theories in that thread.

Yes, but those were not the generally accepted theories in that thread.

Ok. But think about it. How much force is really being applied to the wire? It doesn't take much to move a derailleur. A cable doesn't stretch. I'm not saying people don't have shifting issues after a little while, but it's not due to the shifter cables stretching.

Originally Posted by LowCel View Post
It's more that the cable housings "seat" into the frame, cable housing ends, shifters, etc than it is that they "stretch".
Originally Posted by scrublover View Post
not the inners stretching. it's the outer coating shrinking up a bit... getting pulled around as the cables and bike move. the inner wires are "compressionless" but the outer plastic coating is much less compression resistant.

Profail-

The above posts quoted by rankin116 are quintessentially correct about what many folks have erroneously termed 'cable stretch' for many years.

My understanding is what Lowcel and scrublover described as posted above.

Ok. But think about it. How much force is really being applied to the wire? It doesn't take much to move a derailleur. A cable doesn't stretch. I'm not saying people don't have shifting issues after a little while, but it's not due to the shifter cables stretching.

Okay.

Do you have any links on this? Not that I don't beleive you, but this is new and fairly interesting, so I'd like to read some more on it to undertsnad better.

Maybe try to re-adjust everything yourself

No.


Thats like telling old women to fix their own cars. If you dont know what youre doing, take it to someone who does.

Okay.

Do you have any links on this? Not that I don't beleive you, but this is new and fairly interesting, so I'd like to read some more on it to undertsnad better.

No, I don't. I've read things on here, and a while ago there was link to a thread on some other forum. I'm sure you could search a little and find some info on the tensile properties of steel, but that's a bit too boring for a even a science geek like me.

No, I don't. I've read things on here, and a while ago there was link to a thread on some other forum. I'm sure you could search a little and find some info on the tensile properties of steel, but that's a bit too boring for a even a science geek like me.

Any hints for Google words? I'm lost here?

Properties of Steel Wire Tensile Compressionless?

Any hints for Google words? I'm lost here?

Properties of Steel Wire Tensile Compressionless?

I originally believed the 'cable stretch' myth. When the myth was dubunked to me a'la scrublover and LowCel, the lightbulb went on and the explanation just made sense. Profail, just use your common sense.

I originally believed the 'cable stretch' myth. When the myth was dubunked to me a'la scrublover and LowCel, the lightbulb went on and the explanation just made sense. Profail, just use your common sense.

I beleive it, I just don't understand exactly why. I'm looking for resources that offer some more insight.

. Profail, just use your common sense.


:roflmao::roflmao::roflmao::roflmao:

Okay, you say it wont shift into the highest gear, and the shifting is erratic? Does it skip gears? If so, adjust the cable tension via barrel adjuster. You can use common sense, I assume this is a top-normal RD, when you tighten the barrel adjuster the RD will be pulled inboard. Loosening = outboard. Try adjusting the b-screw, park's website is ideal for explanation of the terminology, to get "crisper" shifting. But in all fairness, on a used bike if the transmission is stock then don't expect any spectacular shifting. The problem of not being able to get into a gear at the extreme of the range may mean you need to adjust the high or low-limit screw. They're basically to keep your chain from overshifting into the spokes, or into the frame.

Set the limit screws correctly, then move on to the cable-tension(barrel adjusters), then the b-screw. I highly recommend a book like "Zinn and the art of mountain bike maintenance" or something along those lines, if you want to work on your bike yourself. If this rambling made absolutely no sense, take it the the LBS and ask if you can maybe watch while adjustments are made.

Okay, you say it wont shift into the highest gear, and the shifting is erratic? Does it skip gears? If so, adjust the cable tension via barrel adjuster. You can use common sense, I assume this is a top-normal RD, when you tighten the barrel adjuster the RD will be pulled inboard. Loosening = outboard. Try adjusting the b-screw, park's website is ideal for explanation of the terminology, to get "crisper" shifting. But in all fairness, on a used bike if the transmission is stock then don't expect any spectacular shifting. The problem of not being able to get into a gear at the extreme of the range may mean you need to adjust the high or low-limit screw. They're basically to keep your chain from overshifting into the spokes, or into the frame.

Set the limit screws correctly, then move on to the cable-tension(barrel adjusters), then the b-screw. I highly recommend a book like "Zinn and the art of mountain bike maintenance" or something along those lines, if you want to work on your bike yourself. If this rambling made absolutely no sense, take it the the LBS and ask if you can maybe watch while adjustments are made.

Thanks, I did adjust the barrels this morning and took it for a ride. Seems to be shifting good, but when I'm shifted into the bigger cog on the front gears and the smallest in the back there is some grinding on the chain. The chain actually popped off going towards the frame in the second gear so I need to adjust the L-screw when I get home.

I beleive it, I just don't understand exactly why. I'm looking for resources that offer some more insight.

Perform your own experiment. Take a new cable and measure its length. Then anchor one end and pull on the other as hard as you can. Presumably you will be able to apply at least as much force as a derailleur spring. Remeasure. Report back to us with the results.

Cables stretch proportionally to a given load (a very small one on a bike), while the load is applied.. after the load is released the cable returns to its original length.

In all, I've owned 6 bikes.
2 real bikes
1 real Mountain bike.
But I'm not as dumb as I come across.
It is indeed possible for a cable to become longer. When a strong enough force (not saying a Derail. is this force) is applied to a cable. The little strands that are wound together tighten against each other, which in turn can make a cable stronger. By this reasoning, it is more likely that brake cables would "stretch" more than a derail. cable. For those that disagree, why then, does 95% of the bike shops out there say that "You may need to bring your bike back in about 1-2 months of riding, because the cables will "stretch" and need re-tuned?"


Mcoine, I find it hard that a bike cable is made of memory metal, which is what your saying, because usually normal steel and aluminum don't return to their natural state. When a force is applied to a cable, the cable tightens against it's self and the wound cables get tighter, and the cable in whole, becomes slightly longer....
Take a guitar string, what happens when you tug on it and it starts to unwind? It becomes longer.
Same theory with bike cables, just not to that extent.


Have you ever Used a steel cable to pull something? You can usually tell when your putting a lot of tension on it as it starts to twist, its twisting the opposite way that it is wound, thus making the cable longer.

No matter how long we argue this, there will be those who say the "stretch" and those who say they don't.

Very well said! It get us nowhere fast, but well said.

In all, I've owned 6 bikes.
2 real bikes
1 real Mountain bike.
But I'm not as dumb as I come across.
It is indeed possible for a cable to become longer. When a strong enough force (not saying a Derail. is this force) is applied to a cable. The little strands that are wound together tighten against each other, which in turn can make a cable stronger. By this reasoning, it is more likely that brake cables would "stretch" more than a derail. cable. For those that disagree, why then, does 95% of the bike shops out there say that "You may need to bring your bike back in about 1-2 months of riding, because the cables will "stretch" and need re-tuned?"


Mcoine, I find it hard that a bike cable is made of memory metal, which is what your saying, because usually normal steel and aluminum don't return to their natural state. When a force is applied to a cable, the cable tightens against it's self and the wound cables get tighter, and the cable in whole, becomes slightly longer....
Take a guitar string, what happens when you tug on it and it starts to unwind? It becomes longer.
Same theory with bike cables, just not to that extent.


Have you ever Used a steel cable to pull something? You can usually tell when your putting a lot of tension on it as it starts to twist, its twisting the opposite way that it is wound, thus making the cable longer.

No matter how long we argue this, there will be those who say the "stretch" and those who say they don't.


You should put this much effort into all of your posts.

It is indeed possible for a cable to become longer. When a strong enough force (not saying a Derail. is this force) is applied to a cable. The little strands that are wound together tighten against each other, which in turn can make a cable stronger. By this reasoning, it is more likely that brake cables would "stretch" more than a derail. cable. For those that disagree, why then, does 95% of the bike shops out there say that "You may need to bring your bike back in about 1-2 months of riding, because the cables will "stretch" and need re-tuned?"


Mcoine, I find it hard that a bike cable is made of memory metal, which is what your saying, because usually normal steel and aluminum don't return to their natural state. When a force is applied to a cable, the cable tightens against it's self and the wound cables get tighter, and the cable in whole, becomes slightly longer....
Take a guitar string, what happens when you tug on it and it starts to unwind? It becomes longer.
Same theory with bike cables, just not to that extent.


Have you ever Used a steel cable to pull something? You can usually tell when your putting a lot of tension on it as it starts to twist, its twisting the opposite way that it is wound, thus making the cable longer.

No matter how long we argue this, there will be those who say the "stretch" and those who say they don't.


So, did the Golden Gate Bridge have to be "adjusted" after a month or so because the cables stretched? Guitar strings are not wound the same as derailleur/brakes cables, and in general, different materials.

So, did the Golden Gate Bridge have to be "adjusted" after a month or so because the cables stretched? Guitar strings are not wound the same as derailleur/brakes cables, and in general, different materials.

What kind of strings are talking about here? GHS,Black Diamond(coated),Elixir(nano or polyweb) Ernie Ball.Flatwound or roundwound,we need to know to figue this out.

What kind of strings are talking about here? GHS,Black Diamond(coated),Elixir(nano or polyweb) Ernie Ball.Flatwound or roundwound,we need to know to figue this out.

If I'm following you right, I think you're proving my point. Derailleur/brake cables are tightly wound, like twisting a group of cable with a fixed end until tight. Guitar strings are more loosely wrapped, like a noose knot, for example. The wrap material could be bronze, brass, nickel plated steel, and I'm sure a variety of other materials as well.

Yes, I was just using anything that came to mind. I was trying to find a video of a cable getting stretched.
The Golden Gate bridge, I' sure has to be adjusted, actually, I think they do adjust the tension on the cables if I remember correctly, from a show I watched. Those cables are of a lot higher strength and have been build to withstand extreme forces.

Another example is steel fishing leader. It's wound steel wires to form a cable. If I take one that has swivels on both ends, and take two pairs of pliers and pull on either side with enough force the cable begins to spin which you can clearly see because of the swivels, This spinning action is the cable tightening up, and becoming slightly longer due to that.
I'm a fan of Myth Busters, and E_mailed them to have them possibly test this myth for us.

So does a cable really stretch?
Like a bungee cord-No.
Does it elongate due to forces- Yes. This is were the term "stretch" seems to come in.

I'm a fan of Myth Busters, and E_mailed them to have them possibly test this myth for us.
I'm referring to the standard round steel cables that most bikes come with stock.

Mcoine, I find it hard that a bike cable is made of memory metal, which is what your saying, because usually normal steel and aluminum don't return to their natural state. When a force is applied to a cable, the cable tightens against it's self and the wound cables get tighter, and the cable in whole, becomes slightly longer....


The cables are stretched by the manufacturer to "bed down" the individual strands.. this releaves the "permanent stretch" of the cable. In use, the cable is experiencing "elastic stretch". Of course.. just like all things.. there is a load that will in fact permanently distort and eventually break the cable.. but we're not dealing with these forces.

http://www.s3i.co.uk/wiretehnical.php

Yes, I was just using anything that came to mind. I was trying to find a video of a cable getting stretched.
The Golden Gate bridge, I' sure has to be adjusted, actually, I think they do adjust the tension on the cables if I remember correctly, from a show I watched. Those cables are of a lot higher strength and have been build to withstand extreme forces.

Another example is steel fishing leader. It's wound steel wires to form a cable. If I take one that has swivels on both ends, and take two pairs of pliers and pull on either side with enough force the cable begins to spin which you can clearly see because of the swivels, This spinning action is the cable tightening up, and becoming slightly longer due to that.
I'm a fan of Myth Busters, and E_mailed them to have them possibly test this myth for us.

So does a cable really stretch?
Like a bungee cord-No.
Does it elongate due to forces- Yes. This is were the term "stretch" seems to come in.

I'm a fan of Myth Busters, and E_mailed them to have them possibly test this myth for us.
I'm referring to the standard round steel cables that most bikes come with stock.

I do understand what you're saying, and I used the GGate bridge as an extreme example as well. A steel cable, with enough force, will stretch then snap, but the forces shifting gears on a bike are not enough to cause that. By taking two pliers and pulling on a wound cable like you said, you are already putting much more force into that cable than it takes to move a derailleur.

^^ Tensile strength figures I found for 1.5mm stainless cable is 200kg or about 440 lbs. That's a whole lot of force before you'd see stretch.

If I'm following you right, I think you're proving my point. Derailleur/brake cables are tightly wound, like twisting a group of cable with a fixed end until tight. Guitar strings are more loosely wrapped, like a noose knot, for example. The wrap material could be bronze, brass, nickel plated steel, and I'm sure a variety of other materials as well.

Welll.......I was just goofing around not making any kind of point. Hey, if it gives you something you can work with go for it.

The brake cable is more prone to stretching before the derail. is. But a stretching can possibley occur when you shift more gears than supposed to as that puts a little more stress on them.

So if the cables don't stretch under the normal use of a bike, then why do they get slack after the first 1-2 times adjusting them.

The housing doesn't seem to have to much effect, as not a whole lot of the cable is covered by it, at least not on my bike. If it got longer, then the cable should be more taught, not get looser.

The brake cable is more prone to stretching before the derail. is.


False.


But a stretching can possibley occur when you shift more gears than supposed to as that puts a little more stress on them.


False.


So if the cables don't stretch under the normal use of a bike, then why do they get slack after the first 1-2 times adjusting them.


Educate yourself here (or "hear" if that's easier for you to understand):

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/browse_thread/thread/a03b9daa52f6c261/

Pay attention to the posts authored by Jobst for the real deal.

The housing doesn't seem to have to much effect, as not a whole lot of the cable is covered by it, at least not on my bike. If it got longer, then the cable should be more taught, not get looser.

The housing doesn't get longer, it actually seats into everything...it gets shorter and therefore the cable ends up being too long for the system.

False.




False.



Educate yourself here (or "hear" if that's easier for you to understand):

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/browse_thread/thread/a03b9daa52f6c261/

Pay attention to the posts authored by Jobst for the real deal.



Ok don't insult my intelligence of the English language. I can understand the two different words just fine.

You say that a brake cable is not more prone to "stretching." So your telling me that a brake cable does not get more force than a derail. cable? What about those of us using V brakes, when we need to stop, we usually have to pull a tad harder.


So if we don't exert enough force on a cable for it to "stretch" or get tighter, then explain to me then why brake cables sometimes snap? My BMX bike went through 3 brake cables.

I'm sticking to my earlier statements saying that the cable, as it is steel, doesn't stretch like a bungee cord, but it tightens up and becomes slightly longer.

Extended use can also have it's effect on steel cables, which could cause them to become longer.