Singlespeed & Fixed Gear - Installed tubular wheels last night.

Story:

Having recently made the switch to tubulars on my geared bike (aka the coffee shop bike (http://velospace.org/node/6223)) I had been looking to build up a set of tub wheels for my fixed gear. I was nearly ready to order some rims, spokes and hubs to build up a handmade set. (I've been reading Jobst Brandt's wheel theory book (http://www.amazon.com/Bicycle-Wheel-3rd-Jobst-Brandt/dp/0960723668).)

Imagine how stoked I was when I found a new, never glued set of Velocity, DT spoke, Formula fixed/free wheelset on the local Portland Craigslist. Bonus: it was $90! Actually, I drove over the guys house to pick them up and he knocked off another $10 for coming over. $80 for what I estimated to be a $300 set. Ironically, there was a price sticker on the wheels from River City Bike for $300.

Apparently, the dude won these wheels at cross race sponsored by RCB. RCB sponsors the famously popular cross crusade series here in P-town. He didn't want tubulars. I did. Fair trade!

I had been stretching some Conti Sprinter Gatorskins on another wheelset. I mounted those on the back without glue just to take it for a spin. On the front wheel, I mounted Schwalbe Stelvio tires, which was my spare due to a repaired puncture from last week.

I took it for a 30 minute spin around the neighborhood. I rode gently and took the corners nice and easy because again, there was no glue. But, about 30% of the holding power comes from the inflated tire stretching over the rim surface (with the remaining 70% of the grip coming from the glue's adhesion.) So this it totally doable unless you ride like a jackass.

Some observations:

I had been riding cheap Vittoria Zaffiros on my clincher wheelset. They are 25c tires and weigh a ton. When I got on the tub wheelset (same bike of course) the difference was noticeable within a couple of pedal strokes. Spins up faster. Soaks up bumps. Quieter. Best. Upgrade. Ever.

The amazing thing is how the tires make you feel like you are floating over rough roads. Whereas a cheap clincher tires uses thick casing that reduces the flexibility of the casing to deform over the rough stuff, nice tubulars have a more supple casing which allows the tire to deform locally over the imperfections in the road. In other words, tub tires act like suspension to greater degree than cheap clinchers. Caveat: keep in mind that clinchers have really evolved recently and a high quality open tubular constructed clincher (such as Veloflex and Vittoria Open Corsa tires) ride as well as tubulars.

I lost 600 grams of rotation mass with the new wheels and tires. Aside from the obvious benefit of having lighter wheels, tubular tires are rounder in profile so they feel better around the corners. On the other hand, tubular tires are not for the mechanically challenged or the impatient. It takes 3 days to glue, cure and mount tubs the right way. Any less time and the risk of rolling the tire off the rim during a high-speed corner is high. You have to carry a spare tub with you when you ride because a patch kit does not work since there is no access to the inner tube. These are considerations that must be evaluated before leaping to the world of tubular tires but in my experience there has been no greater upgrade than the performance and ride enhancing ride of tubular wheels and tires.

Links:

Jobst Brandt FAQ (http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/index.html)

Park Tools Tubular Mounting Guide (http://www.parktool.com/repair/readhowto.asp?id=101)

i like your observations - they're more precise than most of what i've heard (which usually comes out to, "yeah, i like tubulars.") ... i've been getting tempted to mess with tubs lately.

i've been riding tubulars on my daily commuter/street bike for about a month solid now. i'm glad you're going with the gatorskin tubies. i did the same and i ride how i normally would pretty confidently.

Your description of "floating over the rough stuff" sounds really enticing. I would like to mess with tubulars to see if this floating shock absorbing effect is really all it's cracked up to be. However, you have some high quality tires on there (Gatorskins). I have read that cheap tubulars feel just like cheap clinchers and the price of good tubulars kind of makes them hard to justify for road training rides and especially for tooling-around-on-the-fixed rides.

However I'm still keeping my eyes peeled for a deal on a second hand tubular wheelset at the price range you got (very nice find!).

i don't know much about the tubular world, so how exactly does one handle a flat on the side of the road? how quickly can you be up and running again?

I picked up a pair of deep section carbon fiber tubulars (sold by Fetish Cycles.. they're probably rebranded something or others) from Cypress (the BF member). I was planning on being able to convert between a road freehub and fixed gear with a Surly Fixxer so I could use them on my road bike, but they didn't have the right kind of hub for that. Replacement ones were hard to find because few people make 24 hole hubs with the splined interface for freehubs. So I found a cheap 24h track hub with slotted holes (made my job easier because I already had bladed spokes). Currently it's being rebuilt and I can't wait to ride the pair, I think I lost over 700 grams compared to my Deep Vs.

I got some Vittoria Corsa Evo Pave CG tires (yep, the $100 per tire ones that lots of TdF riders use on the Paris-Roubaix stage, although I got them for cheaper) that are 290tpi so they should roll really smoothly. I'm excited.

i don't know much about the tubular world, so how exactly does one handle a flat on the side of the road? how quickly can you be up and running again?

when i ride them i just carry a pre-stretched and glued spare tire in my bag. you can throw a bit of fresh glue on and have it mounted in about the same amount of time it takes to swap out a clincher. the spare takes up a bit more space than a tube, but it's easy and fairly fast.

However, you have some high quality tires on there (Gatorskins). I have read that cheap tubulars feel just like cheap clinchers and the price of good tubulars kind of makes them hard to justify for road training rides and especially for tooling-around-on-the-fixed rides.



True. There are bad tubulars out there. The reason they are bad is

* not round
* lumpy
* heavy
* less puncture protection.

If you compare my Schwalbe Stelvio vs Conti Gatorskins though, the Schwalbe is hands down a better tire. It's just not as puncture resistant because of the thin casing. The very thing that makes the Sprinter Gatorskin different from the Schwalbe (the tough sidewall) is the thing that keeps it from rolling as nice.

**Stelvio = true 300 TPI cotton casing. $$$$
**Sprinter Gatorskin = 3 ply 60 TPI casing to arrive at a fake 180 TPI casing. $$$
Vectran fibers which is not as supple as cotton. Note that this is NOT just a tubular version of the clincher Gatorskin. The casing and construction is fundamentally different.

**By comparison, the baller tires used by Lance Armstrong is Andre Dugast. 350 TPI SILK casing. Baller status at $160 each. $$$$$

I picked up a pair of deep section carbon fiber tubulars (sold by Fetish Cycles.. they're probably rebranded something or others) from Cypress (the BF member). I was planning on being able to convert between a road freehub and fixed gear with a Surly Fixxer so I could use them on my road bike, but they didn't have the right kind of hub for that. Replacement ones were hard to find because few people make 24 hole hubs with the splined interface for freehubs. So I found a cheap 24h track hub with slotted holes (made my job easier because I already had bladed spokes). Currently it's being rebuilt and I can't wait to ride the pair, I think I lost over 700 grams compared to my Deep Vs.

I got some Vittoria Corsa Evo Pave CG tires (yep, the $100 per tire ones that lots of TdF riders use on the Paris-Roubaix stage, although I got them for cheaper) that are 290tpi so they should roll really smoothly. I'm excited.

Those are Planet X wheels which was rebranded to Fetish Cycles. Which was originally speced by Gigantex of Taiwan.

Ironically, my tubular 28-spoke Zipps seem mega stiffer than my new 32-spoke Velocity Escape wheels on the same tires. It's the carbon deep section. (I have Schwalbe/Sprinter Gatorskins FR/RR on both my bikes.)

Darn you! I just got a chris king/eno eccentric wheelset laced up to some mavic rims that I have been dying to try, but I haven't made my tire choice yet and would feel silly using the eno on a bike with track ends.

The difference for me tubulars vs clinchers show in the gearing I run. I run 47-17 on my Velocity Deep V clincher set but on my Araya tubular set I run 47-16. Same effort :)

The difference for me tubulars vs clinchers show in the gearing I run. I run 47-17 on my Velocity Deep V clincher set but on my Araya tubular set I run 47-16. Same effort :)

It's nice to see someone who has the same idea.

On both my fixed geared bikes I run 44X16 for my tubular wheels and 44X17 for my clinchers. On my Nishiki I use Campy Record hubs 32h laced 3X for both wheelsets and for my Waterford I run high flange Phils 32h laced 3X onto Open Pros and my sew-up wheels are DA high flange laced the same way to Mavic Reflexs. I favor Veloflex Criteriums for the tubulars and Veloflex Paves (open tubulars) for my clincher tires When I am just tooling around or when the roads are wet or just bad I run the clinchers.
When I want to really fly I run the tubulars with their higher gearing.

Yes you can really feel the difference. Min is dead on coorect on the superior comfort and awesome cornering capabilities of tubulars (although you need to be on a road bike to really get a serious lean into a turn; esp when you countersteer and then dive into a sharp turn.

I've been thinking about doing the tub thing on my new road build but I want to finish the damn thing and ride it for awhile first.

For those who have tried both, how does tape stack up against gluing?

I have clincher Stelvios and they're bumming me out. Fast, light, and fun, but not very puncture-resistant. Maybe the tubs are better but I'm not going to spend the money to find out.

^^^ I only use Miyata tape. Clean, fast, and easy.

i don't know much about the tubular world, so how exactly does one handle a flat on the side of the road? how quickly can you be up and running again?

Not all tubulars can be fixed and that usually includes everything made byTufo. I have been riding tubulars on my road bike for more than 10 years now and I think it does not really cost more than clinchers.

You need to get a tire with a removable valve head -- that would be Conti sprinters and up (price wise) and all tufos. Apply Stans or the tufo sealant and something like the Gatorskin or vectran/black chili should be good enough to last a season of commuting. If it works in New Mexico or the southwest, should work everywhere else.

Apply Stans every 3 months.

I actually have a tubular repair kit on my saddle bag. You need a seam ripper, regular patch and a curve leather needle and nylon thread plus a regular patch kit. These items will fit in the patch kit. Although it is much easier to bring a pre stretched tire with Stan's, if you know how to sew, you can repair a tire with regular tubes (Conti sprinters) I think a latex tube is harder to repair but I think they sell a tubular repair kit as well.

Someone is selling Mavic Reflex SUP rims with formula hubs on ebay all the time for 139. These weigh 1700 grams I think or maybe a bit more but Deep V's are like 2500 grams. Another 100 for a Conti gatorskin sprinters pair should set you up nicely.

Another nice tubular wheelset is the Crane Creek Volos track.

True. There are bad tubulars out there. The reason they are bad is

* not round
* lumpy
* heavy
* less puncture protection.

They are no different than the poor quality bontrager tires that came with my trek,You could see the lumpiness and they have a tire hump in them.

MarqueeM--

I have been VERY happy with the Miyata tape. Super fast, clean, easy to use. and it doesn't stink like glue (but maybe that is your thing). It feels really secure to me, but I don't really feel like I do extremely heavy cornering (like on long descents, etc) since I am solely a city rider these days.

Sorry to spoil the tubular tire love-in, but they idea that you're somehow floating on air if you ride tubulars is kind of BS. It's pretty well documented the quality clinchers have as good or better rolling resistance than tubular tires, they're no more or less likely to get pinch flats, and they typically only add a few grams more to a bike (though that few grams could matter to you, I'm not taking that away). I used and enjoyed tubulars for fifteen or so years, on and off, and I have no particular grudge against them, but this fawning praise should be tempered with some counter-arguments.

Sorry to spoil the tubular tire love-in, but they idea that you're somehow floating on air if you ride tubulars is kind of BS. It's pretty well documented the quality clinchers have as good or better rolling resistance than tubular tires, they're no more or less likely to get pinch flats, and they typically only add a few grams more to a bike (though that few grams could matter to you, I'm not taking that away). I used and enjoyed tubulars for fifteen or so years, on and off, and I have no particular grudge against them, but this fawning praise should be tempered with some counter-arguments.

I clearly stated that caveat.

I clearly stated that caveat.

...And?

I concede your point.

Touché

. . .

It takes 3 days to glue, cure and mount tubs the right way. Any less time and the risk of rolling the tire off the rim during a high-speed corner is high.

You have to carry a spare tub with you when you ride because a patch kit does not work since there is no access to the inner tube.

I'm having trouble reconciling these two statements. Does it take 3 days to fix it? Do you carry a tent too?

Regarding the 2nd statement, I thought you could comfortably (relative) ride a few miles on a blown tubular.

I'm having trouble reconciling these two statements. Does it take 3 days to fix it? Do you carry a tent too?

Regarding the 2nd statement, I thought you could comfortably (relative) ride a few miles on a blown tubular.

You can ride on a flat tubular forever. And man, if hipsters start rocking totally impractical tubular wheelsets on the road because of this thread, i'm going to kill something.


Sorry to spoil the tubular tire love-in, but they idea that you're somehow floating on air if you ride tubulars is kind of BS. It's pretty well documented the quality clinchers have as good or better rolling resistance than tubular tires, they're no more or less likely to get pinch flats, and they typically only add a few grams more to a bike (though that few grams could matter to you, I'm not taking that away). I used and enjoyed tubulars for fifteen or so years, on and off, and I have no particular grudge against them, but this fawning praise should be tempered with some counter-arguments.

Arguments like 99.9% of this forum would be ill-served by buying a tubular wheelset.

how can you fall in love at such a crawl? i don't know if i like anything until i've sped things up a bit.

OT: MIN your Lemond is awesome.

Realities on tubulars:

First off, I've been riding them since 1971, and still swear by them. I also have a couple of sets of 700c clincher wheels (can't see any advantage, and a few disadvantages changing tubes on the road), plus 26" and 27" clinchers on my long haul touring baggers. If I'm not riding a loaded bike, I gravitate to tubulars naturally.

The trick of living with tubulars is have a spare wheel or old spare rim(s) hanging around the shop. You always pre-stretch your tyre, and store the spare ones on the rim at full (or close to full) pressure. This way, they install easily. If I'm mounting new tyres for a day's ride, I normally mount them the afternoon or evening before, pump them up full, and let the bike sit. They're always ready to go the following morning. I currently keep five spare tyres dry mounted and hanging on the wall - I tend to buy a few every winter and use them up as the season progresses.

Tubulars ARE pressure critical. I pump mine up before the day's ride every day. Run an under inflated tubular, and you're begging for a flat.

Road repairs - I normally carry a spare tubular strapped to my seat rail, and a plastic bag with a tube of rim cement, pressure gauge and CO2 inflator in my jersey pocket. I'd previously put a very thin layer of cement on the spare tyre and let it dry. It makes the tyre a little tacky, but nothing you can't deal with. If you're naturally clumsy or now to this, throw a set of skintight disposable rubber gloves in with the patch kit. It'll make up for the fumbling. And after a couple of times you won't need them anymore.

On the rare occasion I get a puncture (I'm averaging one a year), I'm off the road, pull the wheel, pull off the tyre, new layer of cement, put on the tyre, inflate, check pressure and remount wheel. Five minutes, max. I wait another five minutes to let the glue set, and take it easy through the curves for the first couple of miles. Using this method, I've never had a tyre roll off while in flight.

By the way, my preferred tyre is a Vittoria Rallye 23mm. Easy to get (Performance Bike carries them on the shelf), I like the ride, and, well . . . . I can't ***** about one puncture a year.

Just put tubular wheels on my newest fixie, based on a 1964 Raleigh Gran Sport frame.

One big warning: If you insist on riding without brakes and skid stopping, tubulars are NOT for you. Stay with the heavy clinchers. This is why I never worry about the urban hipster crowd going to tubulars. I ride a fixie like a regular road bike, front and rear brakes, so they work find in my instance.

The biggest things about getting comfortable with tubulars is learning some (to you) new and somewhat different skills and/or habits. Stick with it, it's worth the effort.

Great write up, but why all the trouble? You don't mention why you prefer them.

Do you ever ride clinchers? It'd be nice to get your perspective on ride difference.

If you only have one bike or use your bike as basic transportation then clinchers are BY FAR the logical choice!

If you ride you FG bike for fun and training (like Syke and I do) and you have extra wheelsets or several bikes then tubular wheels will be a revelation once you are over the steepest part of the learning curve.

I have never used tape so can't comment on them but gluing is easy if the tire is pre-stretched.

I too have a revolving supply of sew-ups as I buy them when they are at insanely low prices ($100 tires for $30-50 and stretch them on old tubular rims.''I do the same thing as Sykes except that I omit the part about adding glue to my spare roadside. The pre-glued spare and the residual glue on the rim is good enough.

Lastly I never have needed to use the sealant as that stuff is messy, heavy and I suspect that it will destroy that famous tubualr ride quality. (Did I mention that it was heavy and at the circumference of the wheel?) If I am going on a long ride like a century I just carry 2 spares but have never needed both. (Two spares are also heavy but having it in my rear jersey pocket does nothing to my ride quality.)

Someone posted that the rolling resistance argument to refute the superior ride quality of sew-ups. They have nothing to do with each other. If you use cheap tubulars you will not feel the difference from clinchers.

I admit this story is unscientific but on a short steep hill near my house I have done several coastdown contests with a riding buddy. When I am on my sew-ups I am 3-4 bike lenghts ahead of him at the bottom but when we are using the same clinchers (Verstistein Fortezza SE from Performance) we are dead even. I realize that this is a datum point of 1 (and unverified at that).

I would like to know how the tubular tires were secured to the rim in the oft-quoted RR test as tape or a heavy layer of glue will allow for more hysterisis and thus increased RR.

Just my rabid $0.02 worth.

Gerry

Someone posted that the rolling resistance argument to refute the superior ride quality of sew-ups. They have nothing to do with each other. If you use cheap tubulars you will not feel the difference from clinchers.

Gerry

I don't quite know what you mean by this. The claim that tubulars ride "faster" than clinchers is one concerning rolling resistance. The tests show various high end clinchers having a lower rolling resistance than high end tubular tires. Assuming that the tests are true, this is a successful refutation of that claim.

Shants: Ride "quality" refers to the comfort of the tire and not it's rolling resistance. Tubular wheels are more comforatable and grip better b/c the profile of the tire is round and there is a greater lenght of sidewall to deflect and to absorb road imperfections. Good sew-up tires have much higher TPI than clinchers, except for "open" tubulars (but these tires still don't have a ideal profile).

The 2 vertical metal sides of the clincher rim impart a radial or vertical stiffness to the wheel and thus to the ride. Tubular rims have more radial compliance so it is a combination of the rims and the tires which create the legendary sew-up "ride". This is a separate issue from rolling resistance.

My personal experience with each tire type leads me to believe that tubulars roll farther for a given amount of energy but I have no hard evidence to support this claim:)

Great write up, but why all the trouble? You don't mention why you prefer them.

Do you ever ride clinchers? It'd be nice to get your perspective on ride difference.

I've got a set of modern Bontragers, running Hutchinson 700-23's - I swap them back and forth on my Fuji Finest with a set of Ultegra hub tubular wheels. They're nice, and I've got to admit that they're in the same ballpark. I definitely believe in the '99% as good' theory, the 1% difference in my riding is either general comfort or really rears it's head when I hit that nail. The bike does feel just a little better to me on tubulars, although I'm hardly enough of a performance rider to be able to dissect that statement with any better accuracy. It just feels better, and I tend to do a few more miles in the day riding them as opposed to the clinchers. I find tubulars a lot more convenient, and the supposed negatives (stretching ,storage, inflation, etc.) are such old ingrained habits that I don't notice.

Just to keep things in historical perspective, I've also got two vintage bikes running 27x1-1/4. World of difference, which is why I got onto tubs 38 years ago.

I notice that I'm gathering the parts to put double sets of wheels on my other two "racing" (as opposed to "touring" and/or "cruising") bikes besides the Fuji, so I can switch back and forth whenever I feel like it. No, I don't race, I call them my "racing" bikes because that's what I haul out when I'm doing group rides with a fast bunch on serious modern iron, er, carbon.

If you only have one bike or use your bike as basic transportation then clinchers are BY FAR the logical choice!

Ghod yes. For urban riding, I only use clinchers. I'll go a step further, for urban riding I only use my bikes with either 26x2 or 27x1-3/8 clinchers, or the 700-38's on my hybrid I keep at work.

It's not the type of tyre, it's the diameter, weight, thickness, damage resistance. Even the cheapest road tubulars I've seen for sale are in a performance class with mass market 700-21's and 700-23 clinchers, not heavy urban tyres and Richmond's city streets are not a nice place for a light, fine, bicycle wheel. I'm too busy watching traffic to worry about the quality of pavement ten feet in front of me.

No doubt you can say the same for the city you live in. Fortunately, I live out in the country, where the roads aren't beaten to death, and you can ride whatever looks good to you at the moment.

I'm having trouble reconciling these two statements. Does it take 3 days to fix it? Do you carry a tent too?

Regarding the 2nd statement, I thought you could comfortably (relative) ride a few miles on a blown tubular.

3 days to do it proper without risk of rolling the tire off on a corner. (Base layer of glue, cure. Second layer of glue, cure. Mount tire after another thin coat. Wait 12-24 hours depending on the glue.) If you flat on a ride then you pry off the old tub and then peel it off. Then you use a pre-glued, pre-stretched tire to replace it and ride home gently. The normal guidance is to reglue the tire when you get home. Like I mentioned, there's ample holding power to ride even an unglued tire. The only trouble when you are cornering.

@Others -

I can't speak for everyone on this forum but I ride my fixed gear for training. I put on lots of miles, especially as the weather gets nicer. That's why I use tubulars and run $70/ea Veloflex clinchers. I appreciate a nice ride and I am willing to be patient and also pay for it. It's not for everyone. I don't have tubular agenda for the BFFGSS forum. Just stating my feelings for those individuals who might see eye to eye with me.

Anecdote: Today I did the first epic ride of the season: I rode 135 miles (~7 hours) on my Lemond with a few buddies. We rode through some nasty, gravelly, pockmarked country roads. I am slightly sore but I have no numbness or the stiffness in my body that I had on my clincher-equipped bike from last season. I really appreciated the ride.

Min: I don't know why it is taking you 3 days to glue your tires. Most folks are making this process out to be so arcane or difficult. There are even some folks who pay their LBS to do this. I would not trust anyone else to do this for me and it's just not that hard.

I've been doing it for 34 years and it just take me a little over an hour to glue 2 wheels and then I let it cure overnight before riding. I spread a thin even layer on the rim; same for the basetape on the tire (it helps to inflate the tire to 40 psi to evert the basetape). Once both layers are tacky which takes about 20 mins., I put a thin (2-3mm bead along the middle of the rim and then mount the tire and inflate to 35 psi and place the wheel on a truing stand to center the tread in order to remove the wobbles. The thin bead allows you to rotate the tire longitudinally. I feel this step is critical to keeping the rolling resistance low. The higher end tires like the Veloflex or Vittorias Corsas are easy to center and are not lumpy but the Vittoria Ralleys and Contis, even the Competition models are difficult to center, not round and fairly lumpy.

The only time I ever rolled a tire was when I was in grad school and had not done it in several years (college and grad school left little time for riding) I put too small a bead of glue so as not to make a mess rolled a front tire at the bottom of a steep downhill hairpin turn.

i got two new sprinters and they centered very easily and are not lumpy.
i'm going to try out some of the vittoria evo corsa's. i was told that htey are almost as nice veloflex criteriums.

gluing, all my rims have a coat of glue on them already. so, basecoat on a new tire, while letting dry put a thin film on the rim. let dry for a bit. after the basecoat is not tacky anymore on the tire i spread another thin coat on it. let it dry for about 15 minutes and then mount the tire.

if i have a brand new rim i would do the couple of basecoats and let them dry overnight just to be sure the tires glue up good.

i spread glue over the whole surface of the basetape. i go a little thin in a one inch area opposite the valvestem so that it is easier to get a lever under the tire. getting a tire off is pretty tough when you lgue it up well.