Brooks Flyer Install Issue - Fore / Aft Adjustment

[fthomas]

I took the leap and bought a Brooks Flyer and took off a Selle Anatomic (I think that is the model) on the bike today. I discovered that the fore / aft adjustment on the rails of the Flyer is less than that of the Selle and I'm thinking that I'll end up 1" forward of where I was with the Selle. Not good. I know I can change out the Ritchey Adjustable Stem, but that certainly was not my intention as a new step adds $ 60.00 to the cost.

Any experience with the ability to adjust the fore / aft position of the Brooks verses other saddles? The Flyer is simply the B17 with springs.

[Monoborracho]

Don't change the stem. Rather, change the seatpost if necessary in order to reposition your saddle. Look for one with a more generous setback.

[seeker333]

It's a design shortcoming/compromise in all the Brooks saddles (due to the need to incorporate saddle tensioning screw into rails).

My B17 is the same, you lose 15-20mm of rearward adjustment range compared to most other saddles' rails.

Look at any mounted Brooks picture - all the saddles are pushed fully rearward in seatpost clamps to achieve a centered mounting position.

Edit: I measured a B17 today- rails have 50mm of fore/aft range, vs. 65mm on a avocet touring and 70mm on a SI Flite. It looks like Brooks could have extended the mounting rails a bit without interfering with the saddle skirt, rider's thighs (rub) or the tensioning device. You'd think they would have revised this in the past 20 years or so.

[avmanansala]

Yup, I just bought and mounted my B-17 Narrow today. Swapped out a Terry Fly. The Brooks is forward about an inch more than the Terry. I have a zero setback Thomson. I guess I'm off to the LBS tomorrow to pick up a new offset seatpost.

Still, I love the Brooks. :)

[rodrigaj]

I replaced my Pro with the Swift for the same reason. Since I ride in the drops 50% of the time the narrower scoop is a plus. But the real reason was the set back.

[BSLeVan]

It's a design shortcoming/compromise in all the Brooks saddles.

+1 My Selle Anatomica is just fine on one road bike, but the Brooks Pro requires a rear setback seat post on another road bike with the same geometry.

[fthomas]

I am a bit disappointed that I either ask the right questions or find the right information regarding install and adjustment characteristics of Brooks saddles. Maybe Stapfam can stop by and plant a size 45 shoe with cleats in Brooks saddle contact point. Here is an email that I have sent them. I'll let you know the response I get:

Dear Sirs:

I had been considering a Brooks Saddle for quite some time and reading information on your product on the web and in particular at bikeforums.net. I went to a local shop and purchased a Brooks Flyer. Much to my surprise, when I installed it yesterday I discover that I have lost 1" of aft adjustment. Thus placing the saddle 1" forward of how I have my touring bike set up.

This is not something that I had read on any of the posts at bikeforums.net until I posted in the 50+ forum asking for input. Additionally, I researched information on sites such as Rivendell Bicycles and even Sheldon Brown and I did not find any details regarding fore / aft adjustment limitations on Brooks products. If it is not a design limitation and I am simply accustomed to seat posts and saddles that are more commonly found on high end touring bikes in the United States by all means tell me.

It was a financial stretch for me to purchase the Brooks Flyer and I now am saddled with spending additional money on a seat post with greater setback in order to make up for the design difference between a Brooks and all other "modern" saddles. Guess it will be some time before I am riding the Flyer. Why is this information not clearly communicated either on your web site, that of your dealers or on the forums. I assure you that I will be posting about my experience on a number of bicycle riding forums.

I look forward to your response. I would like recommendations for:


Seat Post with Setback to compensate for the loss of aft adjustment
Proper Saddle Adjustment Fore / Aft for a Brooks Product.

Fred Thomas

[Road Fan]

Fred,

I guess I'm not sure if you're asking us or not, but there are some setback seatposts that allow in the range of 30 mm of setback. Most seatposts have around 15-18 mm setback, such as most Campagnolos, the Thomson Setback, and (I think, less experience here!) the Shimano and Suntour models. The main one I can think of the has 30 mm setback is teh CLB that Wallbike sells. There it's a bit costly, but I have a used one in 27.2 mm, that I will not be using. PM me if you want to talk about it.

In my experience it's really important for a healthy fit to keep your butt where it needs to be relative to the crank and pedals. This doesn't mean KOPS necessarily, but it should usually be the same from bike to bike. Then the stem is adjusted if necessary to dial in the reach from that position.

Road Fan

[Road Fan]

I replaced my Pro with the Swift for the same reason. Since I ride in the drops 50% of the time the narrower scoop is a plus. But the real reason was the set back.

Rod, the shape of the Swift lets you perch your sit bones farther back from the nose than on a Pro?

Road Fan

[BluesDawg]

I have read discussions about this issue here and on other forums in the past. It is definitely true that the Brooks rails are shorter than on most saddles, so if you were mounting another saddle near the front of its saddle rails, you will not be able to get that position with the same seatpost. Before I switched to a Brooks B17 on my Bridgestone my saddles were positioned about midway of their adjustment range with a typical setback seatpost. With a Brooks, I have it close to but not quite to the front of the saddle rails with about 1/8" potential adjustment remaining if I wanted to slide the saddle back further. I guess it all depends on how your bike fits whether the rails will be a problem or not.

[fthomas]

Road Fan
I am asking for input. I think I know what "conventional wisdom" indicates with regards to the seat fore / aft position and I also discovered what a giant difference it can make on a mountain bike, which I am sure translates to a road bike as well. This appears to be an excellent learning opportunity!

I will PM you. I'll have to check and see what size seat post I have now. It is for a Novara Randonee. I was experiencing some sticker shock when I started looking for another seat post. The CLB is a good looking seat post and is not priced beyond what I had seen. After spending a pretty penny on a flyer and seat cover I was caught off guard by never even considering the fact that it would not be capable of being installed without starting to switch out seat posts. I kind of feel like - STUPID! Where did I miss such critical information.

Had I realized it I am sure that I would not have sprung for a Flyer or any Brooks for that matter.

Then again, maybe I did not have the bike set up properly in the first place and I need to learn something else here.

[BluesDawg]

What kind of seatpost do you have now? Is it a typical seatpost that sets back slightly from the shaft to the clamp or is the clamp straight above the shaft with no setback?

BTW, as you get into swapping parts and modifying bikes, you will find that things like this are not all that uncommon.

[fthomas]

It is a Ritchey Comp V2. I checked the Ritchey web site and could not find any info on set back for this particular model. I guess it means "0"

[Tom Bombadil]

If your Ritchey Comp looks like this one, then it already has 25mm (1") of setback.

http://www.thebackcountry.net/cart/product.php?productid=20987
http://store.nexternal.com/shared/StoreFront/default.asp?CS=reparto&StoreType=BtoC&Count1=553814113&Count2=470954537&ProductID=2878&Target=products.asp

[rodrigaj]

Rod, the shape of the Swift lets you perch your sit bones farther back from the nose than on a Pro?

Road Fan

The narrower scoop allows less interference. Less of a feeling that you are being "pushed forward". Between the pro and the swift this is a quibble. Between the B17 and the swift this is a major change. The pro is a good compromise between the B17 and the Swift. The Pro and the Swift both use thicker leather as well.

[BluesDawg]

It is a Ritchey Comp V2. I checked the Ritchey web site and could not find any info on set back for this particular model. I guess it means "0"

No need for technical info. Does it sweep back at the top like the one Tom B. posted?

[fthomas]

BluesDawg,

It does in deed. I got a PM from Road Fan who helped me get back to fore / aft saddle position 101. So, before I go and change things with regards to the post I am going to check my knee alignment with regards to the center of the pedal shaft with them at the 3 and 9 o'clock positions. I'll then know how far, if any I need to go further back. I actually may not have had the original saddle adjusted properly from the get go.

[Tom Bombadil]

That is the right approach.

The point of my asking if your current Ritchey post was like the one I pictured was that if it was, then you already own a setback seatpost. At 25mm of setback, it already provides more setback than many seat posts marketed as "setback" posts. For example the Thompson Setback posts provide 16mm of setback.

You might find something that has a little bit more setback, I believe I've seen them up to 30mm. Maybe someone knows of one that has more. But that would only be another 5mm.

Sounds to me like your best option is to follow Road Fan's recommendation.

[fthomas]

Tom

Itec makes a seat post that is 50mm of setback, which I hope that I don't have to use. I am going to follow Road Fan's instructions and check it here in a few minutes. Thank you guys for the info and help.

[Tom Bombadil]

I believe you mean Titec. I've never heard of a post offering 50mm. I googled and found dozens of posts on forums saying that one of the Titec Hellbent posts has 50mm of setback, but when I went out to Titec's own web pages, they don't claim that spec on any of their seatposts.

Not saying it isn't out there, but I couldn't find it.

I did find a couple with 40mm. One from Easton and this one from FSA:
http://www.bikewagon.com/Shop/Control/Product/fp/vpid/3919243/vpcsid/0/SFV/32140

[fthomas]

Here are the measurements. (Note Corrected)

Right foot with pedal at 3 o'clock the plumb bob is 25mm forward of the pedal shaft / spindle
Left Foot with pedal at 3 o'clock the plumb bob is close to 24 mm forward of the pedal shaft.

So, I need to find a seat post with the additional

[BluesDawg]

How far aft of the pedal do you want to be?

[fthomas]

I want the plumb bob from my knee to the center of the pedal spindle. I think I described it wrong.
The Pedal Shaft is 25 mm aft of the plumb bob. I need to move aft 25mm more. The only seat post that I have found is the TITEC El Norte Bent, which is about $ 55.00 plus shipping from Performance. Man is it ugly. I will certainly be a real Fred with this one.

Any other suggestions?

http://titec.com/products/pro3_48.jpg

[BluesDawg]

Well, it's that or get a frame that fits. ;)

[fthomas]

BlueDawg

When all else fails go out to Sheldon Brown's site and I found the following:

The Myth of "KOPS" (http://www.sheldonbrown.com/kops.html)

In particular I find the following two things interesting and a variant to conventional wisdom - knee over pedal spindle.

excerpts written by Keith Bontrager:

Good bike fit has three general parameters: correct saddle height, correct saddle-to-bar distance, and correct fore and aft saddle position. The established methods for finding the correct saddle height (seat tube length) and saddle-to-bar distance (top tube and stem length) seem fairly straightforward. For maximum power, the cyclist's leg should be nearly extended at the bottom of the pedal stroke (This advice is good for your knees, too; the straighter your legs are during the peak power portions of the pedal stroke - usually between 100 to 130 degrees from top dead center - the better it is for your knee joints - D.R.). The reach to the bars should allow the cyclist to assume a comfortable position whether sitting or standing.

..........................................

In general, I believe this new way of approaching the fit problem is physically correct. It ignores the arbitrary knee/pedal relationship of the KOPS method and replaces it with a procedure that tries to minimize the muscular efforts required by the rider to maintain each riding position. So far, I haven't had any complaints from my customers and I've been able to clear up fit problems for riders that were positioned poorly by the KOPS method.

It only makes sense from a geometric standpoint that if I raise the saddle height (it may be to low) that this will bring the knee in relationship to the pedal spindle in-line with the pedal spindle. He also talks about a recumbent rider verses the normal bike rider and states that it really is an issue of comfort and that the angle of things are equal when rotated around the crank hub. I think I may have learned something and will adjust the saddle height to ensure it is properly set and then see how things come together.

Any thoughts?

[stapfam]

I want the plumb bob from my knee to the center of the pedal spindle. I think I described it wrong.
The Pedal Shaft is 25 mm aft of the plumb bob. I need to move aft 25mm more. The only seat post that I have found is the TITEC El Norte Bent, which is about $ 55.00 plus shipping from Performance. Man is it ugly. I will certainly be a real Fred with this one.

Any other suggestions?

http://titec.com/products/pro3_48.jpg

Although that seatpost has a certain amount of lay back- The head is still of the inline type. It will probably not give any extra rearward movement than a normal lay back seat post.

There is a type of seat post- normally found on some downhill mountain bikes- that has the lay back head and also has a bend in the post. This does push the saddle back further- but you are right- They look ugly and do not look right.

Have a look at raising the saddle to see if the saddle does get to the right position-Providing you can still ride the thing. And the other thing is- Have you tried riding the bike yet? I know that I like to have my knee further forward than most people but 1" infront of the pedal shaft may be a new position for you that works.

[rodrigaj]

This is the seatpost I use with my Brooks Pro: FSA SL220:

http://www.bikemagic.com/review/reviewproduct/mps/RGN/5/RCN/114/RPN/31820/v/1/sp/332671698147342300258

[Tom Bombadil]

That is one odd seat post. Had never seen it before. BTW, it's $41 from Universal Cycles.

[Road Fan]

The narrower scoop allows less interference. Less of a feeling that you are being "pushed forward". Between the pro and the swift this is a quibble. Between the B17 and the swift this is a major change. The pro is a good compromise between the B17 and the Swift. The Pro and the Swift both use thicker leather as well.

Thanks, Rod, I might want to look for a Swift. The Pro Ihave usually causes some chafing in addition to other discomforts.

Road Fan

[Road Fan]

BlueDawg

When all else fails go out to Sheldon Brown's site and I found the following:

The Myth of "KOPS" (http://www.sheldonbrown.com/kops.html)

In particular I find the following two things interesting and a variant to conventional wisdom - knee over pedal spindle.

excerpts written by Keith Bontrager:

Good bike fit has three general parameters: correct saddle height, correct saddle-to-bar distance, and correct fore and aft saddle position. The established methods for finding the correct saddle height (seat tube length) and saddle-to-bar distance (top tube and stem length) seem fairly straightforward. For maximum power, the cyclist's leg should be nearly extended at the bottom of the pedal stroke (This advice is good for your knees, too; the straighter your legs are during the peak power portions of the pedal stroke - usually between 100 to 130 degrees from top dead center - the better it is for your knee joints - D.R.). The reach to the bars should allow the cyclist to assume a comfortable position whether sitting or standing.

..........................................

In general, I believe this new way of approaching the fit problem is physically correct. It ignores the arbitrary knee/pedal relationship of the KOPS method and replaces it with a procedure that tries to minimize the muscular efforts required by the rider to maintain each riding position. So far, I haven't had any complaints from my customers and I've been able to clear up fit problems for riders that were positioned poorly by the KOPS method.

It only makes sense from a geometric standpoint that if I raise the saddle height (it may be to low) that this will bring the knee in relationship to the pedal spindle in-line with the pedal spindle. He also talks about a recumbent rider verses the normal bike rider and states that it really is an issue of comfort and that the angle of things are equal when rotated around the crank hub. I think I may have learned something and will adjust the saddle height to ensure it is properly set and then see how things come together.

Any thoughts?

My main thought is that Keith is correct and there's nothing magic about KOPS. It's of value as a starting point and reference point. If you "just know" how it feels when your saddle fore/aft is correct, get yourself fit that way. If like me you don't, it's good to have a reference point and a way to measure to make adjustnents. KOPS offers tha tstarting point, and some fitters think it works. It does work for me. I did say in my PM that the final test is if it works on the road. None of these general recommendations is guaranteed to be right for you or anyone.

you still have to get the saddle heght correct for you. The 109% rule works pretty well for me. If you move your saddle back you should lower it a bit to restore your proper height, and vice versa if you move it forward it should be adjusted up. I measure from the center of the BB to the center top of the saddle.

One caveat: Kieth states above that the straighter your leg is the better it is for your knees. This is true only uip to a point. If your leg gets too straight with a knee angle less that 25 degrees at BDC, you could have pretty serious kneecap problems. I have had this pain, and it ain't good . It also can result in rocking pelvis, which grinds your perineum against the saddle resulting in pain, blood, and weeks off the bike. More bad news.

Road Fan

[Retro Grouch]

Yup, I just bought and mounted my B-17 Narrow today. Swapped out a Terry Fly. The Brooks is forward about an inch more than the Terry. I have a zero setback Thomson. I guess I'm off to the LBS tomorrow to pick up a new offset seatpost.

Still, I love the Brooks. :)

Unfortunately you can almost never change just one part on a bicycle.

[fthomas]

Decision made. I am going to go buy another saddle. The cost and T&I (time and irritation) Factor does not warrant messing around with Brooks. I guess I just made an emotional buy and paid for it.

The Brooks saddles are very attractive compared to their more modern counterpart. I can not help but believe that there are other quality products out there that would serve my purpose as well if not better and with a lot less hassle.

[Ray Dockrey]

In all fairness if you had done a search about brooks saddles you would have seen that there are setback issues with their saddles. Hopefully you can find a seat post within your budget and things will work out for you.

[Tom Bombadil]

I agree one can find that info, and I have seen it before. But it isn't as prominent as it should be. On either Brooks' site or on the various on-line stores selling their saddles.

This problem is compounded in that some stores don't like to take the saddles back.

In Fred's case, his worst "sin" was in applying some treatment to the saddle before checking to see if it could be installed properly. One should never modify something unless they are certain they are not going to want to return it.

[Retro Grouch]

He also talks about a recumbent rider verses the normal bike rider

:) :) :)

[Retro Grouch]

Decision made. I am going to go buy another saddle. The cost and T&I (time and irritation) Factor does not warrant messing around with Brooks. I guess I just made an emotional buy and paid for it.

Does that mean that your Brooks saddle is on the block? Any idea what kind of bike stuff you'd trade it for?

[Tom Bombadil]

What color is it?

I've actually been thinking of buying a Flyer.

[fthomas]

Ray, I had done a number of searches, but never one looking for "setback". Doing a search with "brooks setback" I did pull up threads that I had not seen before.

From what I read they were mostly people in the same position as I am. After the fact and discovering they need another seat post.

Maybe that is why Brooks Saddles all look so new. They just get passed from one person to the next and spend more time in transit than on a bike.

[fthomas]

What color is it?

I've actually been thinking of buying a Flyer.

Black

[Ranger63]

When I put the venerable swallow on the Paramount back in 95 I wound up having to get the LBS to special order a seatpost which had the mount offset enough to make up the difference the tighter frame made over the touring frame I'd orig. had the saddle on.
The Flyer (B66?)is basiclly for upright riding positions. Upright roadster touring bars. This may alter the riding position. I haven't been able to get my LeTour Tourist roadster with the B66 out on the road yet to check it.
I'd definitely look around for a seatpost offering the most rearword offset (aluminum preferably I'd be concerned about CF with a huge offset)
Or; and I'm sure to wreak havoc with this statement, put the B66 on e-Bay and go with a saddle that works for you. Being comfortable equals longer periods in the saddle and that's what cycoing is all about.

[Tom Bombadil]

Okay, black is good.

Now, you said you "treated" the saddle. Exactly what did you do to it?

[fthomas]

As a footnote:

I really am disappointed that this turned into such a production. I believe that Brooks should indicate the adjustment range issue and recommend an appropriate seat post for their saddles. It should be well documented in their literature and their web site - nothing is documented about it by Brooks that I could find.

Why? They wouldn't sell any saddles. Dishonesty by not telling the whole story in my opinion. Brooks England, owned by Selle, are obviously going to continue to mislead the cycling community and profit from their failure to present the facts as they really are. I have to question the integrity of the organizations and the people involved. I also believe that they, Brooks England, is struggling to maintain a place in the market selling "146 Years of Business" and delivering far less than the price of their product in the form of quality information and responsiveness.

I am not saying that a Brooks Saddle is not a good looking piece of equipment - It is. However, not unlike Range Rover and many other British made motor vehicles that all lacked in the quality area until purchased by larger automotive companies. They still do not provide the value for the dollar that comes from Japan.

Anyone know of a Nitto Saddle?

[fthomas]

Okay, black is good.

Now, you said you "treated" the saddle. Exactly what did you do to it?

A single coat on the top and underside (where it could be reached) with Obenauf's Saddle Goop (http://www.rivbike.com/products/list/saddles_and_seat_posts#product=none) that I purchased from Rivendell Bicycles here in California.

It still looks brand new and hasn't been out for a ride, but was installed as I attempted to adjust it.

[freeranger]

Decision made. I am going to go buy another saddle. The cost and T&I (time and irritation) Factor does not warrant messing around with Brooks. I guess I just made an emotional buy and paid for it.

The Brooks saddles are very attractive compared to their more modern counterpart. I can not help but believe that there are other quality products out there that would serve my purpose as well if not better and with a lot less hassle.

I was wondering why you took off the Selle Anatomica and put the Brooks on. I've heard excellent reviews of the SA, as a saddle, and for their customer service. They are both leather, but I've heard the SA doesn't require the break-in period of a Brooks before it is comfortable. Just wondering why you took off the SA, especially since I'm considering buying one this spring.

[fthomas]

I was wondering why you took off the Selle Anatomica and put the Brooks on. I've heard excellent reviews of the SA, as a saddle, and for their customer service. They are both leather, but I've heard the SA doesn't require the break-in period of a Brooks before it is comfortable. Just wondering why you took off the SA, especially since I'm considering buying one this spring.

ok, I'll admit:

I Joined A Cult

Bumms for Brooks

It is a very shady, dark organization lurking in the back of our minds that screams Buy Brooks, Buy Brooks, Buy Brooks.

Honestly freeranger I wanted something with some spring and had a thing going that I thought I needed a Brooks. Can't blame it on the Brooks Cult, just a poor decision on my part.

[rodrigaj]

Night of the living dead: They smell used Brooks' for sale.

FThomas: Beware they are coming for you.

[fthomas]

I replaced my stock Townie seat with a Schwinn no pressure seat and a backrest from Belizebike.com. Probably too padded for you, but perfect for me.
http://tsa.imageg.net/graphics/product_images/p3704683th.gifhttp://goshopping.thestar.com/ss/media/7864000/7864603.jpg
http://www.belizebike.com/images/backrest.jpg

Posted on the Townie bash. Now I have a solution to the Brooks Flyer Fit and I can add a back rest!

YEAH!

[ad6mj]

Posted on the Townie bash. Now I have a solution to the Brooks Flyer Fit and I can add a back rest!

YEAH!

Did you notice the seatpost?

[fthomas]

ad6mi

Sure! Do you like it?
Actually Brooks England suggested that I get a post such as this and use a similar clamp, which I had to reject as unacceptable.

[Road Fan]

ad6mi

Sure! Do you like it?
Actually Brooks England suggested that I get a post such as this and use a similar clamp, which I had to reject as unacceptable.


I don't see much setback in that clamp, even if you turn it the rignt way.

Road Fan