Northeast - ATTENTION - Mid-Atlantic Forum Discussion

Since the regional forum system was set up, there has been an ongoing discussion about having a Mid-Atlantic forum. The states around the Chesapeake Bay tend to see themselves as a coherent region, with common interests. Distinct from the southeast of Florida, Georgia and the Carolinas, and distinct from the northeast of New Jersey, New York and New England. The current division between northeast and southeast occurs at the Potomac River and splits the Washington, DC area in two. Postings of interest to riders in the region are often posted in one forum (missing the other) or in both (double posting) or for lack of a better home, in one of the non-regional forums (commuting, road, etc.) Talk of having a separate forum has been going on for over a year. The Mid-Atlantic roll-call has grown to nearly two hundred names.

I think it is time that we decide what we want. To keep the structure the same or ask for a change.

The BF administrator has asked that we get a consensus on:
1) if we want a separate Mid-Atlantic forum,
and if yes,
2) what geographic area that forum would cover.

I'd like invite everyone concerned to discuss, express their opinions, say yay or nay. Please keep posts polite and to the topic. Since this proposal affects two existing forums, I'm double posting this in both northeast and southeast. Please join in either or both threads (I'd like to do it all in one thread, but we don't have a forum for it yet :D)

The goal is to discuss and get to some consensus.

I'll throw out the first pitch....

My preference would be a separate forum covering Virginia, DC, Maryland, and Delaware. This would be a clean break along state border lines. Since I live 10 miles as the wheel rolls from the Potomac River, the current split has been more than a little inconvenient. My regular riding range goes from the Shenandoah Valley to Baltimore, Fredericksburg to Gettysburg. I would still visit other forums, particularly northeast and great lakes, but I'd like a forum that I can call home.

Honestly I'd say leave it as it is. I live in MD, and quite frankly given the Washington DC corridor, VA might as well be 3 states away.

Bottom line is that no matter where you draw the lines, someone on the fringes will be unhappy. So I say leave the lines where they are.

-D

Traffic in here seems somewhat light. I expect splitting this off to two regions would reduce traffic further. Not sure if that would actually constitute a problem.

How 'bout adding a poll?

Why even define what the new forum would contain? Let it sort itself out.

Why even define what the new forum would contain? Let it sort itself out.

Before the administrators make any changes they need a proposal. Brian asked us to discuss it and come to a consensus.
That consensus could by yes or no to a new forum.
But if yes, we need to give the administrators a proposed geographic boundary.

Honestly I'd say leave it as it is. I live in MD, and quite frankly given the Washington DC corridor, VA might as well be 3 states away.

Bottom line is that no matter where you draw the lines, someone on the fringes will be unhappy. So I say leave the lines where they are.

-D
I'm curious. Does that mean that you feel that your interests are more in common with New York and New England than with Virginia? Or is it that you feel the forum structure doesn't really matter?

I agree about some people on the borders feeling left out. The border has be somewhere. It's just that under the current division the very large concentration on BF members in the Washington DC area is left out on a border and split between regions. Except for perhaps St Louis, no other major urban area seems to be split that way. And unfortunately DC is left off the list entirely.

Traffic in here seems somewhat light. I expect splitting this off to two regions would reduce traffic further. Not sure if that would actually constitute a problem.

How 'bout adding a poll?
Traffic is a good point. I wonder if the mods could do a traffic analysis of other regional forums.

But you are right - traffic may not be a real issue. I see the purpose of having a regional forum as being to discuss issues and events of interest to particular region. While I often go to NYC to ride, I don't consider it to be the same region as Richmond, DC and Baltimore.

A poll is a good idea. I'll try to set one up in a separate thread.

One possible division is to have:

New England, which according to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_England) includes Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Massachusetts, Rhode Island and Connecticut. And having experioenced some people's attitudes when you lump even New York into New England will instruct you on the error of your ways.

The rest of the current Northeast forum could be the new Mid-Atlantic. Possibly adding in VA and WV.

Although, those south of the Mason-Dixon line may be considered by some to be South, I think to even things out, including a couple of other states under the generic term Mid-Atlantic makes sense.

EDIT: I also think there is at least a small chance that shrinking the regions to a fewer number of states might increase traffic.

If the people in New England feel that a separate forum would serve their interests, I'd like to see them get what they want. There is already some discussion about a separate New York forum.

The status of Pennsylvania would be my question, too. I tend to think of Gettysburg, Harrisburg and Philadelphia as part of the mid-Atlantic region. Perhaps there should be discussion about southeast PA being included.

West Virginia is another good issue. I'd like to know how the people in WV feel.

NOVA is more in line with DC and parts of Maryland in Mid-Atlantic, while ROVA (Rest of Virginia) would more likely be considered southeast. When I lived in DC, NOVA, and PG, I met people who had never been to Richmond. Of course, there were plenty of folks in NOVA who were too skeered to go to DC, so go figure.

If a Mid-Atlantic forum is established, I'll visit both it and Southeast.

I live in New York but enjoy riding in New Hampshire and Vermont. I ride on the Crescent Trail in D.C. and have peddled many miles in Middleburg, VA and Poolesville, MD. I for one would keep the North East Forum intact or add to it if necessary. I believe that posts are clearly labeled if they deal with regional specific items but I would miss hearing about the best bike shops in the D.C area etc. I guess I just don’t understand the need for separation.

If anything, it would make sense to split a New-England forum, and leave the Mid-Atlantic from NY to VA IMO. Splitting PA wouldnt make much sense either, since where do you draw that line? The Lehigh Valley? Scranton? I-80? It would be less confusing to either include a complete state than it would cutting it all up. I say leave it as it is- there really isnt enough traffic to the forum to make it hard to read anyway.

As a resident of NE PA, I agree. Don't strip off Philadelphia into a different forum because of some arbitrary line other than a state line.

As a resident of NE PA, I agree. Don't strip off Philadelphia into a different forum because of some arbitrary line other than a state line.
I tend to think of PA south of I-81 / I-78 as being mid-Atlantic, but I'm not particularly in favor of splitting states up either. Do the people in Philadelphia and Pittsburgh think of themselves as being from different regions?

I hadn't thought of the idea of a mid-Atlantic forum from New York to Virginia, but it does make sense.

I tend to think of PA south of I-81 / I-78 as being mid-Atlantic, but I'm not particularly in favor of splitting states up either. Do the people in Philadelphia and Pittsburgh think of themselves as being from different regions?

I hadn't thought of the idea of a mid-Atlantic forum from New York to Virginia, but it does make sense.


And there in lies the difficulty. No matter where you draw the line someone gets left out.

You know you're in trouble when you start citing Wikipedia in order to make a decision. :D

I'm curious. Does that mean that you feel that your interests are more in common with New York and New England than with Virginia? Or is it that you feel the forum structure doesn't really matter?

I guess you could say that in that my interests with NY and New England are about on par with VA. Basically little interest. Given that due to traffic patterns I can get to Philadelphia in about the same time as areas of NoVA I tend to go north more than south.


I agree about some people on the borders feeling left out. The border has be somewhere. It's just that under the current division the very large concentration on BF members in the Washington DC area is left out on a border and split between regions. Except for perhaps St Louis, no other major urban area seems to be split that way. And unfortunately DC is left off the list entirely.


And under your proposed solution what of say, the delaware people. I would think they ride more with the NY, NE PA, NJ folks than VA. They would probably feel as you do now.

And as far as structure, for better or worse it has been the way it is for long enough I think everyone is pretty used to it. And I don't need yet another subforum to keep my eyes on.

-D

I tend to think of PA south of I-81 / I-78 as being mid-Atlantic, but I'm not particularly in favor of splitting states up either. Do the people in Philadelphia and Pittsburgh think of themselves as being from different regions?

I hadn't thought of the idea of a mid-Atlantic forum from New York to Virginia, but it does make sense.

If I-81 was the split, then I would be about 5 miles from the Mid-Atlantic where I live, about a mile where I work, and in the Mid-Atlantic for my favorite rides... :)

I'm even closer if we use the Susquehanna... I can see it out my back window when the water is high, and cross it to get to work.

And as for another person's comment, I only cited Wikipedia because it matches what I have been told by a person from New Hampshire. :)

By the way, I am leaving a lot of messages, but I am really not that passionate about the issue.

Obviously, if we're going to have these regional forums at all, boundaries have to be drawn somewhere, and occasionally people who might naturally group themselves together will find themselves in two different forums. In most situations, these boundaries are set up in a way such that the splits don't affect a whole lot of people. The main problem, it seems to me, is splitting a more or less distinct urban area into different forums, which means that large numbers of people who might otherwise make a community are forced to post in different forums (or to double post, etc.). This means that, e.g., NY-CT-NJ (metro NYC) need to be in the same forum, as do NJ and PA (metro Philly) (though I suppose North Jersey and South Jersey could be split into two forums, as could Eastern and Western PA, etc. if the need arose). Those of us who live in DC may well ride in DC, MD, and VA, and want to communicate with others who do the same. On the other hand, we probably have little connection to riders in, say, Roanoke or Hagerstown (or Wilmington, for that matter), and I don't know that it makes sense to drag those folks out of their more natural regions to join our little forum.

This is an overly long way of saying: hey mods, just give Metro DC its own forum. It won't make up for the lack of congressional representation, but it's a start. ;)

That is pretty much what was suggested as "Mid-Atlantic"

DC, VA, MD, DE... Basically Metro-DC with some stragglers allowed from the parts of the state away from DC. ;)

I did look at the number of threads in each forum, and Northeast has the third most threads, behind only Northern CA and Southern CA... So, if any forum is ripe for splitting, it should be Northeast. We also include the largest number of states.... Admittedly a state out here is nothing compared to the size of west coast states, but even so, We cover from the Permafrost of upper Maine down to where people rarely see snow.

A Mid-Atlantic split would be good, I don't use this forum because it covers way too much geography to see useful to me. I'd vote the following to be included:
MD
PA
DC
VA
DE
WV

I also don't read the form very often because it covers so much that I am not interested in.

I think PA and DE should be together. When I lived in PA I felt closer in spirit to NYC than DC.


A Mid-Atlantic split would be good, I don't use this forum because it covers way too much geography to see useful to me. I'd vote the following to be included:
MD
PA
DC
VA
DE
WV

How about

New England--ME, MA, CT, RI, NH, VT

NY, NJ, PA

DE, MD, DC, VA

As others have said, I don't use this forum as much as I might because it covers too much territory.

I would be interested in a VA, DC, MD, DE, PA group.

I'd support a mid-Atlantic group.

West Virginia might want in on it too, though I don't know if there are many WV folk around.

I'd say DC, MD, VA, DE, WV.

The problem with adding PA is that it would then put a split on Philly for the NJ folk. And if NJ were included, it'd split New York City.

A poll could be put up for the Pennsylvanians to vote their allegiances.

I also don't read the form very often because it covers so much that I am not interested in.
That's one of the reasons I'd like to see the regions split up.


I think PA and DE should be together.
I tend to agree, but I wonder if downstate feels the same as Wilmington.

I guess I am just opposite as I like the large geographic area. I don't get the comments of "I don't check because it covers to large of an area" comments.

I would understand if there was so much traffic that you would miss threads. But the traffic is so low that you could check once or twice a week and not miss anything. I just ignore the threads that don't pertain to me. It's not that hard.

But occassionally it is nice. My wife and I are doing the 5 boroughs ride this year, and so when the thread popped up for that I saw it without having to go look for it. Usually I may not care about NY rides but in this case it was good.

The only thing I probably miss is stuff going on in VA, since they are in a different forum. But regardless of where you split it I would miss something.

There is no perfect solution. Which is why i tend to say leave it. It has been this way for long enough most everyone is used to it. I don't need yet another forum to keep an eye on.

-D

being new on the boards i cannot comment about traffic volume in certain forums, however when i looked for virginia at first i assumed there was nothing for us. then at second glance i realized where it was listed and i was surprised.

personally i am in favor of a mid-atlantic group (since that is what i was looking for). it just seems that splitting the entire east coast into 2 groups is not enough. even if there are not a lot of posts in a specific forum, it still saves the need to sort for relivant information. if i need to know about NC i will go to a south forum, if i want to know about boston i would go to a NE forum and so on...

Vote: mid-atlantic = VA DC MD DE

PA may be difficult. I live in the SE corner of PA, just 5 miles from Maryland and Delaware and consider myself in the Mid-Atlantic region. However, I know some people in Philly that tend to think more of being in the New Jersey, New York region. And western PA seems to have more in common with the Ohio area. Tricky.

I would be interested in a VA, DC, MD, DE, PA group.

I agree with this.

I would split Pa. at the turnpike, though....

I agree with this.

I would split Pa. at the turnpike, though....

I live in Western Maryland....my riding interests range from Lancaster,Pa down to lower Va. and the eastern shore of Maryland.


*sorry, didn't mean to quote myself....meant to use edit....*

Are two weeks worth of threads on the first page of Northeast too difficult to look through? There are 14 threads in the last month and a half that deal with the mid-Atlantic area - why is that enough traffic to need its own section? It's so light that instead of one slow forum you'll have two dead ones. Just start a thread saying, "DC AREA: Looking for ...." in the title and it's easy to find. When you fill up the front page every two or three days with DC threads then I think you'll have a case for a separate section.

And to the testament of how much traffic NE gets this was discussed just three pages ago (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=376818).

Are two weeks worth of threads on the first page of Northeast too difficult to look through? The traffic is so light that instead of one light forum you'll have two dead ones.

This was discussed only three pages ago (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=376818) as well.

I think this is the key. It isn't the physical geographic size that matters but the traffic. From what I have seen here as well as other forums, you need a certain minimum level of traffic on a forum to keep it "alive" too little traffic and people stop coming to check. Too much traffic and people miss posts if they don't check often enough.

-D

Do the people in Philadelphia and Pittsburgh think of themselves as being from different regions?

Yes. And they often don't like each other. :D

I think this is the key. It isn't the physical geographic size that matters but the traffic. From what I have seen here as well as other forums, you need a certain minimum level of traffic on a forum to keep it "alive" too little traffic and people stop coming to check. Too much traffic and people miss posts if they don't check often enough.

-D

+1

"If it aint broke, don't fix it" And IMHO, it ain't broke. I enjoy reading about rides and cycling news that are happening in other areas.

Let's end this discussion. All those in favor say "AYE".

"If it aint broke, don't fix it"

I vote Aye.

+10

I vote it's broke, so fix it.

It ain't broke - Aye.

Aye. Leave PA out of this! I for one like being a Nor-Easter! What kind of cool nickname you going to come up with for Mid-Atlantic. As I said in the Southeast forum, Mi-Lantic sounds too much like a fiber supplement. So those of us in PA unite, and please vote Nay on this.

I vote it's broke, so fix it.
Agreed. The DC area is broken between two forums. The effect of the current regional split is that the DC area, with it's several hundred members, doesn't have a home forum to address out interests. Creating a separate DC thread in one of the current forums wouldn't really help, since we would still need to double post in two forums to cover the region.
The fix is to rejoin the DC area. Whether that happens by incorporating the whole area into the one of the forums, or by creating a new forum, .... but the current arrangement doesn't work very well down here.

I think this is the key. It isn't the physical geographic size that matters but the traffic. From what I have seen here as well as other forums, you need a certain minimum level of traffic on a forum to keep it "alive" too little traffic and people stop coming to check. Too much traffic and people miss posts if they don't check often enough.

-D
If traffic is the issue, why not move DC and Maryland into the Southeast forum. That would help even out the traffic.
But I disagree with you. I think that regional forums should be based on regional interests. If the regions are not drawn properly, they lose their common interest.

Agreed. The DC area is broken between two forums. The effect of the current regional split is that the DC area, with it's several hundred members, doesn't have a home forum to address out interests. Creating a separate DC thread in one of the current forums wouldn't really help, since we would still need to double post in two forums to cover the region.
The fix is to rejoin the DC area. Whether that happens by incorporating the whole area into the one of the forums, or by creating a new forum, .... but the current arrangement doesn't work very well down here.

You're absolutely right that the main problem is that Metro DC is split into 2 forums. This needs to be fixed. However, as some have pointed out, creating a mid-atlantic forum creates some new problems (e.g. splitting off DE from PA, or including PA, but then splitting off PA from NJ, etc.). Which is why I'll again say: instead of a mid-atlantic forum, create a metro DC forum. There are enough of us to support it. Let the folks in the far MD/VA 'burbs decide for themselves if they are part of the metro area or part of NE/SE.

If traffic is the issue, why not move DC and Maryland into the Southeast forum. That would help even out the traffic.
But I disagree with you. I think that regional forums should be based on regional interests. If the regions are not drawn properly, they lose their common interest.

Then I will feel just like you. I live in MD, 25min away from Baltimore. But I am also 30-40min from Hanover PA. 45min from Gettysburg. I do more rides in PA than VA.

So the split you propose here will put me in the exact same position you are now. Anywhere you draw the line someone is gonna have this situation.

So is your complaint about being on the border somehow more valid than mine?

-D

Please don’t shoot the messenger but to cc_rider’s point, if the problem is that you feel that the D.C. area is split between the southeast and the northeast forums I agree that you should decide to choose just one forum to post in. It seems that creating a Mid-Atlantic forum may create more problems than it solves. If you run a search for “DC” or “D.C.” you will see that most members when referring to “DC” post in the northeast forum. There were approximately 490 northeast DC posts as compared to 90 southeast DC posts. I am not suggesting that DC members post in any particular forum but it seems evident that a decision would need to be made which forum to post in IMHO.

Rolling15 - Thank you for checking into it.
I think that what you say is what is happening. But there is still a lot of confusion. Just today two Virginia threads were started in NE and had to be double posted into SE. The current arrangement is very clumsy, but it could work if there was a way the mods could link the threads but still let it appear in both forums.

You bring up two other possible solutions
1) put Virginia in the northeast forum.
2) split Virginia, moving northern Virginia into northeast and leaving the rest in southeast.
In general I don't want to see states split but it is a possibility.

CC rider

Please don't take this the wrong way. I am not trying to be difficult, but you still haven't answered my question.

I can understand that by being on the border area between 2 forums makes it difficult for you and others in that area. But how is redrawing the lines going to help. Sure it may make your life easier, but it will make others more difficult.

Take for instance you drop PA, as you mention above. Now someone like me is on a border area. In this case you made your life better and mine worse. How does that really fix anything?

Take also for example the Lancaster covered bridge ride. This is a ride that has been organized the last 2 years in a row on the NE forum. Would it then have to be double posted in NE and mid atlantic? How is that any less clumsy than the VA post you mention above?

This is why I say leave it. Neither the NE or SE forums get that much traffic. You can check them maybe once or twice a week and not miss anything. Personally, if anything they should combine the 2 to make an "eastern seaboard" forum and it would still work. Just ignore the posts you don't care about.

-D

Do the people in Philadelphia and Pittsburgh think of themselves as being from different regions?

Of course! We say "soda" and they "pop." We say "youse" and they say "yins." Oh, there's a world of difference! But not nearly as much as there is between Philly and Pittsburgh (together) and the rest of the state. Remember what James Carville said :D.

Then I will feel just like you. I live in MD, 25min away from Baltimore. But I am also 30-40min from Hanover PA. 45min from Gettysburg. I do more rides in PA than VA.

So the split you propose here will put me in the exact same position you are now. Anywhere you draw the line someone is gonna have this situation.

So is your complaint about being on the border somehow more valid than mine?

-D

With the greatest degree of civility intended: yes, it is. It's a question of quantity, not quality. Obviously, it sucks just as much for any one person stuck on the split as for any other. Thus, the goal should be to minimize the number of people stuck w/this problem. There simply are far more people affected by the current DC-MD/VA split than would be affected if Metro DC had its own forum (or if there were some sort of Mid-Atlantic forum). The same way that, e.g., Philly and Cherry Hill, NJ should not be in different forums, DC and e.g. Arlington or Alexandria should not be in different forums b/c it's an inconvenience to a relatively large (and otherwise cohesive) number of people.

derath

I don't think you're being difficult. If any of the proposed changes were to happen you would be directly affected. Certainly much more so than people in South Carolina or New York. That makes your voice an important on.

The border needs to be drawn somewhere, and everyone acknowledges that it can create difficulties for those living near the border. Nick stated the case well. Ideally, the border should be drawn between major population centers, not through the middle of them. There are a large number of members, probably several hundred, affected by the current split. I'm sure that some of them don't care, but there are many of us who see the current arrangement as clumsy and not very useful.

Events near the borders should be double posted in adjoining regions. You cite one event, the Lancaster Bridge ride (which would like to try someday). The DC area generates dozens of events and announcements, sometimes dozens a month.

The BF administrator asked us to discuss the issue and come up with a proposal. I'm still hoping for some consensus on this issue. I don't want to see anyone get steamrolled over this, but there is a problem that some of us see as needing fixing. Keeping it "as is" doesn't acknowledge or address that problem at all. If you have a proposal other than "shut up and live with it" (paraphrase of what some others on these boards have expressed) I'd like to hear it.

I think everyone has made their point and we are starting to repeat ideas. Although some members would like a new forum for a better regional identity, the major problem seems to be one of double posting in the SE and NE forums. From looking back at the posts it seems that the members in Virginia and D.C. seem to have the most difficult decisions on where to post. If you create a Mid-Atlantic or D.C. Regional Forum you will just create new geographic separations to replace the old ones or trade one set of problems for a new set. As I mentioned in a previous post most D.C. related material goes in the NE Forum. In addition, of the 207 posts relating to Virginia, 128 were posted in the NE forum and 79 in the SE. How many of these threads were posted in both I don’t know.
I may be wrong (and I’m sure we will hear about it if I am) but to end the difficulty of double posting how about creating a regional forum called the Upper East Coast. (I didn’t create this regional moniker.) It would consist of all the states presently in the NE forum with the addition of D.C. and the entire state of Virginia. Just a thought.