Fifty Plus (50+) - I'm 50+ I don't need the grief.

What is it with bike shops anyway?
Seems after they make a sale, they don't want to deal with you anymore unless it's face to face.
I mean, before we picked up my wife's new FCR 2 W yesterday, they were very helpful and friendly.
So, now I'm think of giving them another $1800 for the OCR C2 but I had some questions.
I sent some email and then I thought, you know, I think I'll just call them.

And, boy howdy, it was pretty obvious, pretty quickly that whoever I had on the phone just didn't want to deal with it. She didn't like my questions. I was being really nice about it, wasn't rude or persnickety... I was just trying to clear up some confusion I had about them having a Giant for sale that Giant doesn't show exists on their website. And it's a GOOD thing because what they do have is a bike set up pretty much exactly as I want it. I asked her if they had this made up as a custom and she started t sound a little annoyed. After I asked about how long of a test ride I can take, I think she was about done at that point. Of course, yesterday I was dealing with the owner and today I wasn't.

Well, hey, I know that I DO have a good bike in the LeMond and if they'd rather I just keep it instead of their making a repeat sale, I can live with that. But man, based on what I saw up to and including yesterday, I didn't expect that. I am so easily disillusioned. Oh well, it was fun while it lasted.

Don't give up now, SaiKaiTai! Do the owner a favor and let him know about this employee. Then ask to work directly with him. That will make you happy, the LBS owner happy, and educate the woman who you got stuck with on the phone. And it will more likely mean N+1. That makes everyone happy! :)

Some people get angry at folks who asks questions they don't know the answers to. Asking this type of person to deal directly with customers is a mistake on the part of the business owner. As Tru suggested, do the boss a favor. Maybe he can train this employee, maybe not. Not your problem.

By all means, don't let a bad employee stand in the way of your plans.

Having dumped many thousands at my LBS I ask for, and get, the owner.

Wage earning employees don't often care about customer service as much as profit earning owners do. I'd talk to the owner to look for answers to your questions and inform him of your experience.

Don't give up now, SaiKaiTai! Do the owner a favor and let him know about this employee. Then ask to work directly with him. That will make you happy, the LBS owner happy, and educate the woman who you got stuck with on the phone.

+1

The owner doesn't have a chance to fix it unless he knows it's broke.
And especially, don't let a bad experience with one employee ruin the otherwise positive experience with this LBS - or keep you from a great bike.

I've seen statistics that suggest that people who get poor service are likely to tell at least 10 people about it, and people who get good service are only likely to tell three. In addition, the percentage of people who actually tell the business or organization that they got poor service is very low, making it very challenging for that enterprise to improve their service when they've made a boo boo.

If you decide in the end that the OCR C2 is the bike you want, then don't let this negative experience persuade you to getting a bike you don't like as well.

OTOH, it doesn't seem like you've tried many bikes out.

How about calling the store again, and this time asking for the owner. Wait as long as you need to, or leave a phone # for him to call you back. Then, you could say that you have some questions about the Giant that you'd like to clear up, and you could casually add that the person you spoke with before didn't give you satisfactory answers so you thought you'd call back and talk directly to the owner. In this way, the focus isn't just complaining about the person; the focus is getting the answers to your questions while casually mentioning the other person. AND, it gives the owner a chance to answer your questions. If the owner's ears are tuned in, he should catch it and perhaps ask YOU some questions, such as the name of the person you spoke with the first time you called.

As others have said, I wouldn't leave a good bike shop that has a bike you want just because of one person who works there and isn't the owner.

The owner is well aware of it by now... or will be once she reads her email.
As I said there in, we've had positive results via email, we've had positive in person and that, maybe, the phone is not the best way to go. I further said that I still have questions with no answers (like was the C2 such an easy climber due to a smaller second chain ring than that on my Reno?) and I am reconsidering whether a bird in hand -my LeMond- is worth two in the bush. I made clear that I will not be dropping $1800 lightly, if at all. It's up to her, now, where this goes.

And no, I haven't tried a lot of bikes out so next might be another "small local bike shop that cares" to try out their Roubaix.

To some degree I realize that the notion of loyalty is archaic. So, if you don't want me, I have NO problem not wanting you either. My money doesn't much care who's hands it goes into anymore.

But right now, that LeMond is looking just fine to me.

Is it possible you were asking some very detailed questions about the bike, which isn't a current model, and the person you were talking to just didn't know the answers?

Saikaitai

Let me tell you guys about my Whining to Win Program. It has yet to fail me. The other posts saying to let the owner know are right on, but take it a further:

Go to the store and speak with the owner face to face.
Tell him that you appreciated his help with the purchase for your wife.
Let him know that you are and have been considering buying another bike.

Then calmly explain to him your experience. Be specific about what the tone of voice and attitude of the person that you spoke to and calmly explain to him that it made you question if you should have done business with them in the first place.

Then calmly explain to him what would have been more helpful to you and what would have given you a greater sense of confidence in purchasing a bike from him, buying accessories and having your repairs done there.

It will educate him on your experience and how to better counsel / train or get rid of the rude person on the phone.


Don't stop here!

Ask him if he understands what you have shared with him and if he appreciates how important it is for you to have confidence in the shop that you are patronizing.

Now tell him that you would like to consider purchasing the bike you have your eyes on and if there is any room to negotiate on price or additional add ons at no charge.

This way you can whine and both of you win. You leave a satisfied customer, he gets the sale and knows what he needs to do to train his people.

Here is a list of items I have been given free of charge:

$ 350.00 GPS from the CEO of the Manufacturer
Complete Set of Tires including the Spare for my truck
The latest version of the Sprint Treo 755P
A $ 25.00 gift card on the spot

I never once raised my voice or acted nasty or angry. I just passionately pleaded my position. My friends keep telling me to write an e-book and sell it on eBay. I am known to have discussions with the CEO's of some major US Corporations. They appreciate the info and I get what I want - quality service and products.

fthomas -- wow, bravo, excellent!

The owner is well aware of it by now... or will be once she reads her email.
As I said there in, we've had positive results via email, we've had positive in person and that, maybe, the phone is not the best way to go. I further said that I still have questions with no answers (like was the C2 such an easy climber due to a smaller second chain ring than that on my Reno?) and I am reconsidering whether a bird in hand -my LeMond- is worth two in the bush. I made clear that I will not be dropping $1800 lightly, if at all. It's up to her, now, where this goes.

And no, I haven't tried a lot of bikes out so next might be another "small local bike shop that cares" to try out their Roubaix.

To some degree I realize that the notion of loyalty is archaic. So, if you don't want me, I have NO problem not wanting you either. My money doesn't much care who's hands it goes into anymore.

But right now, that LeMond is looking just fine to me.

You care about where your money goes because it indicates who you vote for with your purchases. You deserve the best customer care/service possible.

It is the: One dollar one vote.

If you leave the LBS in your original post then that owner looses big time and you never know. You might turn it around to a valuable benefit in some form to you.

I don't care if it is $ 10.00 or your $ 1,800.00 - You Deserve Excellent Customer Service and should not only demand it (in a constructive way of course) but receive it as well.

As far as the merchant is concerned a customer who comes in for a $ 1.00 purchase and receives poor service might just have been the person who would have bought that $ 8,000.00 super bike sitting on a pedestal for all to admire.

If that owner is willing to risk that then they don't deserve your money and will not be in business long. Look at CompUSA. They couldn't compete in the market place. Why? Value - not lower cost competitors!

fthomas -- wow, bravo, excellent!

Concur. :beer::beer::beer::beer::beer:

You care about where your money goes because it indicates who you vote for with your purchases. You deserve the best customer care/service possible.

It is the: One dollar one vote.

If you leave the LBS in your original post then that owner looses big time and you never know. You might turn it around to a valuable benefit in some form to you.

I don't care if it is $ 10.00 or your $ 1,800.00 - You Deserve Excellent Customer Service and should not only demand it (in a constructive way of course) but receive it as well.

As far as the merchant is concerned a customer who comes in for a $ 1.00 purchase and receives poor service might just have been the person who would have bought that $ 8,000.00 super bike sitting on a pedestal for all to admire.

If that owner is willing to risk that then they don't deserve your money and will not be in business long. Look at CompUSA. They couldn't compete in the market place. Why? Value - not lower cost competitors!

What I like about fthomas' technique is that it's so constructive. The owner of the business would much rather have direct feedback and the chance to remedy the situation as opposed to an unhappy customer out there who may be giving bad press to the shop. What's that old adage about having 100 ways to make a new customer happy but having few ways of making an unhappy customer happy? Something like that.

Honesty requires me to admit that I am a much better salesman face to face than I am on the phone with about eighty million other things on my mind. That's just reality for a lot of people. If the owner is good, deal with him and don't try to ruin the other person's life over a bad phone call.

Signed,

The new, kinder Terrierman



The one the guys that work for me don't know...

No doubt, this person on the phone was not in her comfort zone.
That's fine, we've all been there, I'm sure.
But the moment she realized I was over her head, it's time to call in the reinforcements.
As I say, let's see where it goes. There's more for the shop to lose than for me to lose.
I don't need the bike and -honestly- a time out to think about it is not a bad thing.

Oh, and for the record, the owner is not a him as you all assumed, tsk tsk.

OK, I think I got my questions answered after a LOT of digging through the Giant archives.
It's NOT a 2007 OCR C2... it appears to be a 2006 (http://archive.giant-bicycles.com/us/030.000.000/030.000.006.asp?year=2006&model=11262) - everything matches, except the Giant site says the FD is 105 amd the LBS said it's all Ultegra. Hmm.. got the year wrong and got the FD wrong (unless they swapped it out)? Other than that, it's a perfect match. Now, I'm not so sure that $1800 is such a good price for a 2 year old bike. Granted, I don't Giant has changed the frame any and the components are good but it's still a 2 year old bike.

Ask him if he understands what you have shared with him and if he appreciates how important it is for you to have confidence in the shop that you are patronizing.

I agree with you about needing to have confidence in the relationship you are building. And, that's just what it is... a relationship. Personally, I think with good customer service it would not be necessary to ask if they understand. They should offer their understanding of the problem and how it affects you without being asked. Then they should ask how they can make things right. Anything short of that tells me they are not really interested in a long term relationship. And, in a bike shop, the owner (or in some cases manager) is the person I want the relationship with.

In terms of using the phone and basing decisions on those interactions, I try not to put too much into phone conversations. If I can't read body language I don't want to jump to the conclusion that what I "hear" as a poor attitude is a poor attitude. Some folks using the same words and tone of voice come across in a completely different way when you can see their body language.

Excellent advice, fthomas. I've always tried to use a similar approach when dealing with a bad product or service.

One such experience resulted in 5 new tires and a check to cover the damages to my car when not one, but two of their tires exploded on the highway. I was lucky as the people who got caught in the recall a few months later didn't fare as well.

...Oh, and for the record, the owner is not a him as you all assumed, tsk tsk.

No. Not all. And you used the fact that the owner was a she in Post #10 already.

No. Not all. And you used the fact that the owner was a she in Post #10 already.

And I've seen a lot of "him"s since Post #10...
No big deal; just want to give credit where credit's due in this sexist world of ours ;)

Meanwhile, I have heard back from the owner and let's just say we're back on track.
Faith restored.

When I've negotiated for services or goods, my goal is just get what I think is fair to me. I never scream or yell, not my style. And I never make idle threats - if I say I'm going to walk away and never come back there again, I mean it. And I've done it.

But I also don't try to get anything beyond what I feel is owed me. I've been offered free stuff, have accepted it when I thought I deserved it, but have turned it down a few times when I thought they were overcompensating me. That always shocks them - they expect everyone to try to take them for every penny they can get. All I want is a fair deal.

I have been let down by many vendors lately.

At some point, when it gets really, really bad, I just tell my contact person, "OK. I know this is not your fault. But I'm going to vent for a minute." Then I tell them how I feel. The I say, "I'm done now. I really feel that because of all the trouble I've been through that you guys should offer me something to make it right." And they always say yes. And it's always been more than enough....

except almost this last time with my carpeting. I ordered a Berber, and it was installed with bad carpet. They had a supervisor come out and verify it before a third party evaluator came out, to save me money. See, if impartial evaluator determined it was indeed bad carpet, then they would owe me new carpet. If it was not* bad carpet, then I would have to pay the $125 for the inspection!

Anyway, this took a week, and then new carpet was ordered for me, but I had to go to Kansas. When I came back, we installed the new carpet. I told everyone I could to check the carpet on the roll, but apparently the flaws don't show up until the first vacuum. Ends up the new carpet was flawed exactly like the first.

Had to go through the inspector thing again.

I didn't want that same carpet again, as I now distrusted the company--which was a well known department store. So I chose a different carpet (made of corn--send me a PM and I'll tell you about this miracle stuff!) but it was more expensive than the berber was on sale. It also took 3 months to get installed, because of some paperwork thing on their end. All this time, my house is looking like a war zone, since I had emptied my basement for this carpet. At first I put it in the adjacent garage, but then it snowed, and I needed my garage for the cars because I have a guy plow in the middle of the night for me. Anyway, it is huge aggravation.

At some point, a salesperson had let on that the rule was if the client switched carpet because of their mistake, you could get any carpet you wanted as a replacement, within reason.

Well, I asked for this specifically when my contact didn't bring it up. I did my "venting " thing and she surprised me the next time we talked by telling me I could get any carpet I wanted.

I don't have a tantrum when I vent. I just let them know exactly* how hard the situation has been for me and why, and I tell them my feelings at the moment, too. I'm pretty calm when I do it, but I let it all out in one big story.

I think it works because we as people don't often stop and really consider the full beginning-to-end story of people who are not close to us. We retain information which is important to us, but we don't really think of things like, "Wow....with all her stuff out of the rec room, she's watching TV in the kitchen for the last 6 months!!!" Empathy is a good thing to cultivate for yourself and sometimes to push onto others!

When I've negotiated for services or goods, my goal is just get what I think is fair to me. I never scream or yell, not my style. And I never make idle threats - if I say I'm going to walk away and never come back there again, I mean it. And I've done it.

But I also don't try to get anything beyond what I feel is owed me. I've been offered free stuff, have accepted it when I thought I deserved it, but have turned it down a few times when I thought they were overcompensating me. That always shocks them - they expect everyone to try to take them for every penny they can get. All I want is a fair deal.

+1000

Before we actually touch the flame to the mound of sticks around whoever answered the phone, I'd ask myself this question: How much is this person getting paid? How qualified a person can the owner get to answer his phones for that amount of money? The answer, I believe, is "Pretty low," for both questions. Given that, I'd have some compassion. Are we going to punish her because she is not some one else; someone who could get a better job and therefore wouldn't be on the phone with you in the first place? To most objections to this line of thought, I'd say "Should, should, should!" The situation is as it is, the person is who she is. The idea that she should be someone else is the kind of thinking crazy people do. My 2c

SKT-

Think you were unfortunate to get the wrong person on the phone. The Guv'nor should be the one to contact. Just point out that you can't get the details from his staff as they are a bit technical and ask the questions you want answered.


Found the Blue OCR-C2 and it is blue-And it did have a 105 front mech----but specs are not set in stone (Or Pigs) This could have changed at any time. But if it is a blue OCR C2- then it would be an 06. Doesn't matter though as the frames- and the rest of the specs- did not change in 07. But should be worth a haggle for a further discount.

I ain't torching anybody... I've very, very careful to couch my criticisms in the most circumspect language

Stapfam - In talking to the owner about this, *she* said that what Giant says/shows and what they do are two different things. For a couple of years, they shipped bikes without model years on their invoices.
She also said that they were notorious for changing/upgrading/downgrading components throughout the year to maintain interest in their lines. True? I don't know. But I, too, figure the difference(s) between 2006 and 2007 to be minimal and 2006 -if that's what it is- works out better for me.

I ain't torching anybody... I've very, very careful to couch my criticisms in the most circumspect language

Stapfam - In talking to the owner about this, *she* said that what Giant says/shows and what they do are two different things. For a couple of years, they shipped bikes without model years on their invoices.
She also said that they were notorious for changing/upgrading/downgrading components throughout the year to maintain interest in their lines. True? I don't know. But I, too, figure the difference(s) between 2006 and 2007 to be minimal and 2006 -if that's what it is- works out better for me.

Giant are not as bad as some others in changing specs on their bikes but when I bought the TCR-I could not even find my colour frame in the specs- books or archives. Remember this is Europe and differences do occur. Made no difference as it came through with different spec on a lot of items- but I changed several others in any case.

One thing to watch out for- These are a compact frame and as such-will suit several stand over heights. (not that that matters much) I am at the top end of an XS frame and bottom of the S frame. I had to fit a longer stem on the XS (The OCR)and may be fitting a shorter stem on the S.(The TCR) Leg length and saddle position are correct on both frames. And something that did surprise me- The standard saddle was OK from the word Go. I still changed the TCR over to my San Marco "Aero" though.

Standover seems OK... The OCR I rode was a medium and the fit seemed OK for the short toodling I did on Sunday, lehs felt fine, elbows felt nice and relaxed. A more comprehensive ride is coming this Saturday. I'm a small shade over 5' 10" and, per the Giant spec, a medium should be fine. They show a 55" frame (which is what my Reno is) mapping out to a Medium.

I agree with you about needing to have confidence in the relationship you are building. And, that's just what it is... a relationship. Personally, I think with good customer service it would not be necessary to ask if they understand. They should offer their understanding of the problem and how it affects you without being asked. Then they should ask how they can make things right. Anything short of that tells me they are not really interested in a long term relationship. And, in a bike shop, the owner (or in some cases manager) is the person I want the relationship with.


I agree. If I was asked if I "understand" something from a customer, my defenses are going up. I would be less likely to give a discount. It's not that I'd blow it off, it's just that I'd be ready for the next put down that would be coming my way.
Hey, I got Chrylser to reimburse $650 out of $750 in repairs in a way out of warranty van just by asking questions last month.

If it is a large LBS, then they could have "misfits" from Giant. Companies always make some bikes that are cobbled together out of the parts bin, with out of spec components. Sometimes better, sometimes worse. As I'm located close to Trek, I see a number of odd-spec Treks at a couple of the local LBS's. These LBS's willingly gobbled up the odd bikes, I assume at good prices.

Large LBS??? No, it is definitely not a large LBS by any stretch.

And I've seen a lot of "him"s since Post #10...
No big deal; just want to give credit where credit's due in this sexist world of ours ;)

Meanwhile, I have heard back from the owner and let's just say we're back on track.
Faith restored.

Point taken. :)

I bought a 2005 OCR C2. Changed out the tires to Gatorskins, and put a Giant computer on it. The stem swap was free. I walked oout of the shop $2,300 lighter. I'd say $1,800 for a new bike that is in new inventory is still a good price.
If your Lemond has steel chainstays, you will definitely notice a difference in climbing. I went from an all steel Lemond Zurich to the Giant, and could really tell the difference going up Edgewood road to Canada road.

If your Lemond has steel chainstays, you will definitely notice a difference in climbing. I went from an all steel Lemond Zurich to the Giant, and could really tell the difference going up Edgewood road to Canada road.

One thing I can say about the C.F. Giants- They climb very well. No idea why- but I was very pleased with the Boreas on climbing ability. The TCR is better.

And as an example- I went out in the week to try a standard Crankset- 52/39 as opposed to the 50/34 I normally use. Took a hill that is 7.5% for a mile. I was in the lowest gear far sooner but when it got tough-I put on a bit of speed and held that speed for the rest of the hill. Cadence stayed the same at 85 to 90 but with the higher gear of 39/27 (Compact would be 34/27) I did not notice a difference in effort.

Did up the next hill though of 12% where I definitely needed a lower gear. I'm staying with the compact.