Classic & Vintage - 45cm vintage?

I've been on the lookout (craigslist, ebay, garage sales)
for a vintage steel, lugged roadie, or even just frame for a couple years now.
I have been told by friends and bike shops that
motobecane and others in the eighties made made them down to this size,
but I have never seen one.

I'm surprised I've never even seen a miyata or nishiki turn up

but I'm interested in italian mostly..

Did anyone make steel lugged frames in 45cm (top tube 50cm)
in the seventies or eighties?

I have never found one that small. To be that small, you would be looking at a 'junior' bike, or else one custom made. It's likely that the bike would have 24" wheels, as well.

If they exist, they are very, very rare.

East Hill

I had an eighties Trek (400 series, 531 main tubes) that measured 44.5 cm at one point. IIRC, however the top tube was around 55cm; most smaller bikes have longer top tubes. I believe this has to do with the geometry need to run 700 or 27 wheels. Currently, I've got an Asian made Bianchi at 46cm, but the top tube is likewise longer. I can find the measurements on the Trek TT if you like; I gave it to a friend for his kids to ride in kiddie triathalons; after all four of his kids go thru it, he's returning it to me, if it's still intact.

They are out there and I run into them occasionally - my daughter is 5'1 and I put together a nice vintage 50cm top tub Pinarello, campy eqiped, 700c wheels - even that is a touch big, but it works. Seems like after I got done with the build I came across 3 or 4 48cm frames including a nice Woodrup, but I wasn't interested in building up another bike. Again surprised you haven't found one. MW

I have never found one that small. To be that small, you would be looking at a 'junior' bike, or else one custom made. It's likely that the bike would have 24" wheels, as well.

If they exist, they are very, very rare.

East Hill


yeah
and I saw your sachs ... as unbelivably as gorgious as the story behind it
I have a 46 vitus which fits "ok" I'm 4'10' and male

modern bikes with 650c wheels and sloping top tubes make modern bikes no problem but at 48 years old, I still love the vintage steel

I just keep looking cuz I still am not convinced they are not out there
but don't know if I'm chasing a ghost

Well, there's 48 cms which are relatively easy to find (I've got enough!), but a 45cm is really small.

East Hill

yeah I run into 47cms often enough too..
and I CAN ride them .. I have several bikes and they all
have thier own ride characteristics with how I've fit them to me
and I have NO problem riding them
and I have 700c bikes as well as 650c modern bikes
but there are sooo many schools of thought about how
close to follow fit calculators.
and the aluminum vitus 979, although I love it, doesn't satisfy that
vintage steel itch.

I'd suggest looking for junior racers then. It seems to me that the lads here have found a couple of those for me, and at least one was Italian.

I know all too well what you mean about the vintage steel itch :D .

East Hill

I have never found one that small. To be that small, you would be looking at a 'junior' bike, or else one custom made. It's likely that the bike would have 24" wheels, as well.

If they exist, they are very, very rare.

East Hill

I've got am extremely small roadbike. I think it's an Atami. It uses 24" rims. I havent decided what to do with it yet.......On a slightly related topic. The frame was sitting next to my '90 Dyno bmx and they are pretty darn close. I wonder if the geometry could be made road worthy with a fork change? Probably not but I'll have to do some measuring just for the heck of it. I know it can take a really skinny 24" rim/tire combo. I think it would end up looking like a new rig with "compact" geometry and a sloping top tube.
Eh, maybe I'm just crazy.....Now I'm thinking of my 24' wheeled cruiser with a scythe carbon fork and some gears.....I must resist! Everytime I get on that thing it ends badly. There is usually lots of blood involved. I'm not 16 anymore and have forgotten the finesse necessary for jumping stuff.

I think I remember seeing an ebay auction for either a 45 or 47 sized, red, panasonic which basically had the top tube bent down at the seat tube last summer. It was definately a bike shop that had carried a few classics, I just can't remember their name.

I also remember seeing this.http://cgi.ebay.ca/Junior-Road-Coppi_W0QQitemZ180221868513QQihZ008QQcategoryZ98084QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

I've got am extremely small roadbike. I think it's an Atami. It uses 24" rims. I havent decided what to do with it yet.......On a slightly related topic. The frame was sitting next to my '90 Dyno bmx and they are pretty darn close. I wonder if the geometry could be made road worthy with a fork change? Probably not but I'll have to do some measuring just for the heck of it. I know it can take a really skinny 24" rim/tire combo. I think it would end up looking like a new rig with "compact" geometry and a sloping top tube.
Eh, maybe I'm just crazy.....Now I'm thinking of my 24' wheeled cruiser with a scythe carbon fork and some gears.....I must resist! Everytime I get on that thing it ends badly. There is usually lots of blood involved. I'm not 16 anymore and have forgotten the finesse necessary for jumping stuff.

Really? If you don't want those wheels, I could try them on the Sachs...what tyre size is on them?

East Hill

I see those 24 inch wheel junior racers on ebay too...

some pretty nice and not expensive

then that macho 48 year old ego kicks in...

damn that macho ego stuff!!! :**

I also remember seeing this.http://cgi.ebay.ca/Junior-Road-Coppi_W0QQitemZ180221868513QQihZ008QQcategoryZ98084QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Yes, I think this would be the way to go for those really tiny bikes.

East Hill

I see those 24 inch wheel junior racers on ebay too...

some pretty nice and not expensive

then that macho 48 year old ego kicks in...

damn that macho ego stuff!!! :**

Yeah, but you know, when you're looking for nice Italian steel, you're actually at an advantage!

East Hill

Really? If you don't want those wheels, I could try them on the Sachs...what tyre size is on them?

East Hill


Sorry EH......They went to the scrapper along time ago. They were steel and fugly at that! There are other options though......

part of it is ... like that coppi..

my theoretical fit takes me to a 45c with a 50c top tube
so the juniors are going to have to be "built up" with longer stems
as opposed to shortening a 46 or 47 by using a shorter stem and having 700c wheels
and I get hesitant becuase I think parts will be a problem..

I haven't even seen a 24 junior in my area to test ride to see how it feels.
and I'm one of those craigslist and ebay trolls

part of it is ... like that coppi..

my theoretical fit takes me to a 45c with a 50c top tube
so the juniors are going to have to be "built up" with longer stems
as opposed to shortening a 46 or 47 by using a shorter stem and having 700c wheels
and I get hesitant becuase I think parts will be a problem..

I haven't even seen a 24 junior in my area to test ride to see how it feels.
and I'm one of those craigslist and ebay trolls

Where are you located?


Sorry EH......They went to the scrapper along time ago. They were steel and fugly at that! There are other options though......

Well, when I come back from California with Mrs. Stringbreaker's mixte frame, stringbreaker, me, you, caterham, and whoever else is in the neighbourhood are having a mini BF meet and greet. Yes, the Sachs will be with me :) .

East Hill

Well, when I come back from California with Mrs. Stringbreaker's mixte frame, stringbreaker, me, you, caterham, and whoever else is in the neighbourhood are having a mini BF meet and greet. Yes, the Sachs will be with me :) .

East Hill[/QUOTE]

Sounds good to me!

I'm in Sacramento Ca.
and who wouldn't love to see that Sachs?
there is a bike shop in Davis here that has an authentic
Serrota built Huffy 7-11 that probably is a 47. A lady who
acutally rode it in THEE TOUR traded it in and the store displays it
(not for sale, I tried) they even had the serial number traced.
I thru my leg over it and fell in love.
something to appreciate if your in the area

I'm in Sacramento Ca.
and who wouldn't love to see that Sachs?
there is a bike shop in Davis here that has an authentic
Serrota built Huffy 7-11 that probably is a 47. A lady who
acutally rode it in THEE TOUR traded it in and the store displays it
(not for sale, I tried) they even had the serial number traced.
I thru my leg over it and fell in love.
something to appreciate if your in the area

I'll be in California from around April 1 through April 7th...I'll be riding in the Cinderella Classic. We're going to have a few meet and greets, if you'd like to join us?

East Hill

I just checked that out.. Alemeda right?
ladies only ride?
Thats about 100 miles from here.
I'll it on the calendar to ponder and see if
I can scare up a posse

I got a handbuilt 45 cm vintage Reynolds TALBOT frame. (top tube 50cm)
it's beautiful yellow colour complete with lugs and Suntour dropouts.

And surprisingly, it takes 700C front and rear wheels. (with no significant toe overlap)

It came with Superbe bb and cranks and pedals, vintage Cinelli stem and bars, and Campy Inter Brev. brakes and levers. All for $100!!!

/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\

lol okay that was just cruel!!! :)

/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\

lol okay that was just cruel!!! :)

Sounds as if we need to make a deal here :p ! What will it take for special k to part with the Talbot? Hmmm, BC is not that far from me, I'm heading down to the Bay Area soon.......

Anyway, it would be great to meet as many members as I can, especially with my special bike!

East Hill

andre bertin junior racer ( est vintage @ approx 1982/83 )
http://www.bike123.com/used_bikes/used_bikes_IMAGE_bv.php?ID=1651
http://www.bike123.com/used_bikes/used_bikesview.php?ID=1651


then there's this motobecane that would be too small even for east hill-

\http://www.bike123.com/used_bikes/used_bikes_IMAGE_bv.php?ID=1822

^^^
That Bertin is SWEET!

Look at how low the derailleur is on the Moto :eek: .

East Hill

Here's the TALBOT frame I was talking about.
(sorry the pic is pretty bad; I don't have my camera on me)

It's just about complete, I'll post pic when I'm finished.

Miyata made a 45cm 610 touring bike (50cm top tube) in 1986, as well as a 49cm 610 with a 52cm top tube--I know because I have both bikes! Terry also made a lugged steel Symmetry in the early nineties in a 45cm, with a an even shorter top tube of 48cm! Like Easthill, I am vertically-challenged in leg length, so I'm looking for the 'little' rides!

nice,
I would love to see that complete
that's kinda been my vision, don't know how practical or realistic
it is,
I've talked to a couple custom builders, one local and I even talked to
Seven about building a bike, and they all had differrent points of
view about 650 vs 700 wheels and what it does to riding performance.
One builder practically refused to build it unless it was 650 wheels.

But that's a different subject as to ever finding a vintage lugged bike.
It will be interesting to get your feedback on how it handles and how it will look.
we always see these bikes that have been compromised for fit.. ie a 63cm frame
or bikes for short people, or even long legged people,
then you see a 55cm bike for a 5'10" guy fitting and handling PERFECTLY like they are one.

and maybe I'm chasing an ideal that doesn't exist

.... at least the chase is fun

Here's some pics of a vintage 45 cm bike I had for a while. It was made with 700c wheels which look a bit strange on such a small frame, also, it had some toe overlap with the front wheel. I believe its still somewhere in the Seattle area. Don

thank god when clipless came out
I had an all aluminum Motiv roadie with 700c wheels and metal toeclips
in around '85 .. it was almost dangerous
I think that is beautiful and would be fun too ride
and the proportions aren't that bad at all....
until you are in the middle of a group and the differences get exagerated

thank god when clipless came out
I had an all aluminum Motiv roadie with 700c wheels and metal toeclips
in around '85 .. it was almost dangerous
I think that is beautiful and would be fun too ride
and the proportions aren't that bad at all....
until you are in the middle of a group and the differences get exagerated

If you'd like to see my bikes, by the way, just click on the Vintage Bicycle Liberation Front link in my signature.

I should include the story of the Sachs though :o .

East Hill

I see a pink centurian in the background
how do I get to pics???
do I need to create a log in?
hmmm I may not get any work done today..
I'd love to see your stable
as of now I have a 2003 TCR composite (44cm 525 tube with a 50 cm stem)
a 2002 Allez (47cm, 50cm top tube and 60 stem)
a 2003 Felt f65 (47cm, 49 tob tube 70cm stem, and 650 wheels)
a 85 Vitus (46cm, 50cm toptube and 700cm wheels, Dura ace and 600)
and other mountian bikes and countless stems, seats and handlebars
I usaully try and keep it down to this many at a time..
all of them have 165 cranks, (including the Vitus, 7410's)

see ... no lugged steel

Just go to the individual forum--most of them are in the United States forum, although there's a Woodrup frame in the UK forum.

http://meandmybicycles.proboards50.com/index.cgi?board=idusa

You don't need an account to see the photos. I don't own all of these anymore, but they have all passed through my hands.

East Hill

wow love the photos
thanks
that took me back to an old steel bianchi I had with the wheel setup like that
VERY heavy bike
so compared to the bikes youv'e ridden
how do you like the ride and frame compostion (with the 24's) of that Sach's?
how do you like the fit and ride with the different wheels?
(I'm trying to ignore the fact that it's a Sach's and the story)

44cm Fuji on eBay (http://cgi.ebay.com/Fuji-Road-bike-youth-size-44-small_W0QQitemZ320229006511QQihZ011QQcategoryZ98084QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)

St. Louis CL: Schwinn Varsity frame: red 45cm (http://stlouis.craigslist.org/bik/605196345.html)

Speaking of bicycles for the petite rider, I pulled a NZ (built under licence by Morrison) Raleigh out of the scrap recycling pile at the rubbish tip this morning. It has a 3 speed shimano hub and rolls on 24 inch wheels. The frame is just 16inches (40cm) tall between the centre of the bottom bracket and the top of the seatpost lug.
My word it's a little cutie; - it was originally silver before the surface rust got to it and the mudguards are blue. To my great surprise I even found an old NZ Transport Dept inspection sticker on the frame dating from the 1970's. The precise date is too faded to read unfortunately.
Yes it's true, once upon a time the traffic cops would go around the schools and inspect everyones' bicycles to make sure they were safe to ride. Doesn't happen these days sad to say, but then on the other hand hardly any children ride a bike to school anymore. When I was going to school on any typical day the bike racks would be full to capacity with bikes. In those days you could even see adults out on the roads bicycling to work :eek:
I'm not sure what I'll do with this wee Raleigh just yet, but it would be very nice to bring it back to its former glory. It's waaaay too small for me to ride, but it would look very nice hanging from my bedroom ceiling; - it could keep my old 'Wearwell' Club fixed gear bicycle company :D

I know East Hill is never going to let me get away without a picture. My aged digital camera broke so I can't take an instant photo, but this is a catalogue illustration which is identical except for the style of chainguard and it has a plain rear rack instead of the cool leather saddlebag.

http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/8234/dl54boys24qc4.jpg

Mine has got a 3 speed hub and front and rear caliper brakes too, as well as Morrison's lugged version of a Raleigh front fork.

Isn't it a little cutie :D

wow love the photos
thanks
that took me back to an old steel bianchi I had with the wheel setup like that
VERY heavy bike
so compared to the bikes youv'e ridden
how do you like the ride and frame compostion (with the 24's) of that Sach's?
how do you like the fit and ride with the different wheels?
(I'm trying to ignore the fact that it's a Sach's and the story)

The Sachs is very light, very agile. I haven't been able to take it out nearly as much as I would like, because it keeps raining here, and I really don't want to get it wet :p .

I was also having a problem with the rear derailleur not being as sharp as I'd like, which cleared up when I cleaned it up :) .

It's not as twitchy as the Ironman and the Prestige, too. Those two are very fast little bikes, and it takes me a few minutes to get used to them if I have not ridden them in a while.

East Hill

Speaking of bicycles for the petite rider, I pulled a NZ (built under licence by Morrison) Raleigh out of the scrap recycling pile at the rubbish tip this morning. It has a 3 speed shimano hub and rolls on 24 inch wheels. The frame is just 16inches (40cm) tall between the centre of the bottom bracket and the top of the seatpost lug.
My word it's a little cutie; - it was originally silver before the surface rust got to it and the mudguards are blue. To my great surprise I even found an old NZ Transport Dept inspection sticker on the frame dating from the 1970's. The precise date is too faded to read unfortunately.
Yes it's true, once upon a time the traffic cops would go around the schools and inspect everyones' bicycles to make sure they were safe to ride. Doesn't happen these days sad to say, but then on the other hand hardly any children ride a bike to school anymore. When I was going to school on any typical day the bike racks would be full to capacity with bikes. In those days you could even see adults out on the roads bicycling to work :eek:
I'm not sure what I'll do with this wee Raleigh just yet, but it would be very nice to bring it back to its former glory. It's waaaay too small for me to ride, but it would look very nice hanging from my bedroom ceiling; - it could keep my old 'Wearwell' Club fixed gear bicycle company :D

I know East Hill is never going to let me get away without a picture. My aged digital camera broke so I can't take an instant photo, but this is a catalogue illustration which is identical except for the style of chainguard and it has a plain rear rack instead of the cool leather saddlebag.

http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/8234/dl54boys24qc4.jpg

Mine has got a 3 speed hub and front and rear caliper brakes too, as well as Morrison's lugged version of a Raleigh front fork.

Isn't it a little cutie :D

Well, if I ever make it to NZ, you can lend it to me as a rider for my visit!

East Hill

Well, if I ever make it to NZ, you can lend it to me as a rider for my visit!

East Hill

Consider it reserved for you EH ;):)

thanks,

I go through a small adjustment when changing bikes too..

and I can't imagine EVER not factoring in the "Sach's factor"

44cm NOS Fuji Supreme (http://cgi.ebay.com/NOS-Fuji-Supreme-touring-Trekking-Suntour-XC-Nitto_W0QQitemZ220214764059QQihZ012QQcategoryZ98084QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)