Fifty Plus (50+) - Stem angles, lengths, and other stuff for comfort

Hubby has an old Schwinn steel bike that he loves but it is heavy. He's planning to get a new bike that's lighter and smooths out the road for the sake of his shoulders (one total replacement, one probably replaced in a few years). He's ridden the Roubaix and the Synapse.

On whichever bike he chooses, he wants to sit at the same angle as he does on his Schwinn. On that bike, he looks comfortable and relaxed, and that's the way he likes it. He knows what he likes, and he doesn't want to force his older body into a new position.

At the bike shops, they tell him that he'll relax after a few hundred miles and get used to a longer reach (or lower angle). He doesn't want to! He wants a more upright position -- period. Our LBS has a fitter who is working with us and we're hoping he'll agree to his wishes.

We want lighter bikes so we can do group rides, join a club, and do much longer rides with greater ease. Can't he have both -- the lightweight bump-smoothing, hill-climbing sprinter AND his more upright position?

To what extent can reasonable adjustments be made on a CF stem without compromising the bike's handling and safety? How far up and back can they reasonably and safely get him? He doesn't care about going fast, and he doesn't care how he looks (see 'vanity' thread) -- he wants to ride long... smoothly, safely and comfortably.

We know there are other options -- flat-bar road bikes with bar ends, custom build, recumbent (please don't go there...) but we want to explore all our options with these bikes before we look at others.

Here are 2 of the most well known adjustable stems.

One is the Ritchey adjustable and the other is the Look Ergostem. They get a little pricey but they will give you an idea what can be done with a stem. In many cases people use them when they haven't decided what stem is the proper fit and later they replace them with a lighter conventional stem that fits the dimensions determined with the adjustable.

The Ritchey is much less expensive, but the Look allows equivalent changes in length as well as angle.

Adjustable stems are OK if you are trying to figure out where you want the bars located. They allow you to try different things. But once you know what you want, it is cleaner to get a stem with the correct length and rise to give you the desired location. Stems come in a wide variety of lengths and angles. Just look at where the bars are located now and where you want them to be. Figure out what stem length and angle it will take to get you there. Buy it and install it. If the LBS won't help with that, you are at the wrong LBS.

Adjustable stems are OK if you are trying to figure out where you want the bars located. They allow you to try different things. But once you know what you want, it is cleaner to get a stem with the correct length and rise to give you the desired location. Stems come in a wide variety of lengths and angles. Just look at where the bars are located now and where you want them to be. Figure out what stem length and angle it will take to get you there. Buy it and install it. If the LBS won't help with that, you are at the wrong LBS.

I have to agree with the last part. I find the you'll get used to it after a while idea sort of unappealing. (especially in the 50+ forum)

These aftermarket adjustable stems can be seen in the hundreds on any big tour. In nearly every case they are set as high as they can go because the bike originally had the bars too darn low. And frequently it's because the entire bike's geometry is set up to have the handlebars far below the seat. It's difficult to make things right when you start out from there.

There are lightweight touring bikes out there where the bars start out level with the seat but your bike shop will have to look around for them. Unfortunately the bike manufacturers have specialized bike design to such an extent your choices are either a full on race bike or a bike for pedaling over to the MCL cafeteria on. Bikes for the long distance cyclotourist just aren't in production like they were in the 50's through the 80's.

Explain to the clerk that you are not racing competitively. Some clerks are unaware that there is any other type of riding. Tell him you want a bike designed to have the handlebars level with the seat before any crazy stems are added to it. Explain to him that if you need to get more aerodynamic you'll switch your hands to the bottom part of the bars, a feature he may not be aware of.

Thank you for your suggestions.

The thing is, the bars already are level with the seat on the bikes we've borrowed so far. He wants them closer to him. On his Schwinn, the bars are also level with the seat, but the TT is much shorter than on these bikes, and that's what he wants to achieve on his new bike - the same sitting angle and reach from the seat to his hands.

I wonder if he is a prime candidate for a custom bike, but can good ones be had for under..... say.... $3000?

Hey BD...what is the name of that famous bike company that has the handlebars even with the seat. You have posted on it but I cannot remember the name. They seem like a better solution for Yen's husband.

Hermes: Is it Rivendell?

There's something about the stop-and-smell-the-roses position on the hybrid that I like very much. Among the technical aspects I've observed while riding these borrowed road bikes, I've also noticed that I felt more intense and serious while concentrating on the road. When we return home, I feel like I'm getting off a roller-coaster ride, as opposed to just a leisurely fun day out. Now, I love riding on roller-coasters so that's not a bad thing, but I also like the little kiddie cars that go slow and allow you to smile for pictures and wave to the folks on the side. :) I like both experiences, so if I could combine them into one single road bike, that would be my goal.

Possibly a flatbar road bike with all the performance features of the wheels and tires and weight with a more relaxed upright position. I thought you were getting clost to this with the road bike with bullhorn bars idea.

Hermes: Is it Rivendell?

There's something about the stop-and-smell-the-roses position on the hybrid that I like very much. Among the technical aspects I've observed while riding these borrowed road bikes, I've also noticed that I felt more intense and serious while concentrating on the road. When we return home, I feel like I'm getting off a roller-coaster ride, as opposed to just a leisurely fun day out. Now, I love riding on roller-coasters so that's not a bad thing, but I also like the little kiddie cars that go slow and allow you to smile for pictures and wave to the folks on the side. :) I like both experiences, so if I could combine them into one single road bike, that would be my goal.

Yes. Rivendell. Thanks.

He could build up a Rivendell A. Homer Hilsen for around that price which would probably work well for him. It wouldnt be as light as the plastic wonders, though. But he might really like the smooth ride of a quality steel frame and fork. It should be a lot nicer than his heavy old Schwinn.

If the problem is reach and not height, I would be looking for bikes with shorter top tubes. You could go with a smaller size, but that might lead to a problem with a lower head tube.

Hi,
try the Sequoia just for the heck of it.

I have my bars even with the saddle, and it
took an adjustable stem to get there.

You want old fashioned sport geometry. My 1970 Schwinn Varsity had the bars even with the saddle. One way to get that is to call Schwinn. He lost the family name but is still in the bike biz. But that would be an expensive choice.
http://www.gunnarbikes.com/

My Coda has the Ritchey adjustable stem. It was equipped that way OEM. It is handy, as I definitely fiddled with it when I first got the bike. Curiously enough, it's angled pretty well up, about like in the photo, maybe another degree or two. I lack sufficient motivation to even consider changing it to a rigid stem of the same dimensions, and have to wonder why I would even want to? Are there hidden benefits to a rigid stem that I may have missed?

My Coda has the Ritchey adjustable stem. It was equipped that way OEM. It is handy, as I definitely fiddled with it when I first got the bike. Curiously enough, it's angled pretty well up, about like in the photo, maybe another degree or two. I lack sufficient motivation to even consider changing it to a rigid stem of the same dimensions, and have to wonder why I would even want to? Are there hidden benefits to a rigid stem that I may have missed?

Lower weight and potential failure of adjustment mechanism in the adjustable stem.

The thing is, the bars already are level with the seat on the bikes we've borrowed so far. He wants them closer to him. On his Schwinn, the bars are also level with the seat, but the TT is much shorter than on these bikes, and that's what he wants to achieve on his new bike - the same sitting angle and reach from the seat to his hands.

I wonder if he is a prime candidate for a custom bike, but can good ones be had for under..... say.... $3000?

It seems that if he needs a shorter top tube, he is a candidate for a custom bike. A custom bike under $3000 will probably be steel, not carbon or titanium, not that there's anything wrong with that. I had my bike built by R+E in Seattle (www.rodcycle.com) and they do have bikes for under $3000. If none of their 15 stock sizes fit, they charge $200 extra for custom. Unfortunately, once you go down the hand-built bike route it's too easy to "add this and add that" and end up with a $4000 bike.

I lack sufficient motivation to even consider changing it to a rigid stem of the same dimensions, and have to wonder why I would even want to? Are there hidden benefits to a rigid stem that I may have missed?

It would be slightly lighter. It would be stiffer. It would (imho) look better.

These things may or may not matter to you. It's not the kind of thing that would transform your riding experience or anything like that. All else being equal, I would probably choose a lighter, stiffer, better looking stem. But I might not be in a big hurry to replace the adjustable if it worked well for me.

I have a couple of adjustable stems in different steerer sizes that I use on bikes I'm building up to determine what size I need. Eventually I get the right stem for the project and return the adjustable to storage.

Thank you for your suggestions.

The thing is, the bars already are level with the seat on the bikes we've borrowed so far. He wants them closer to him. On his Schwinn, the bars are also level with the seat, but the TT is much shorter than on these bikes, and that's what he wants to achieve on his new bike - the same sitting angle and reach from the seat to his hands.

I wonder if he is a prime candidate for a custom bike, but can good ones be had for under..... say.... $3000?

A women's specific frame may be the answer. They have shorter top tubes. Have him try the Ruby instead of the Roubaix.

When I bought my Litespeed the steerer tube had been cut off quite short by the original owner. I switched the stem to one with a steep angle to get the bars up but did not like that it also brought them back. Last week I put a Delta stem raiser on it and put the original stem back on. I was worried about how it would look, but once I put it on it has been great. My bars are much more comfortable than before. I can not tell any difference in the handleing and I don't think it really could change the steering. http://www.deltacycle.com/product.php?g=9m I think if you bought a new bike and did not cut the stem off, the 3" you could get with a stem raiser would do wonders. I would still recommend a bike that is made for the fit he wants, but if he was dead set on a CF smooth rider this might be an option.

At the bike shops, they tell him that he'll relax after a few hundred miles and get used to a longer reach (or lower angle). He doesn't want to! He wants a more upright position -- period. Our LBS has a fitter who is working with us and we're hoping he'll agree to his wishes.

I identify with your hubby's concerns, and felt the same way when I was riding my Trek 3900 mtb but thinking of maybe getting a road bike and drop bars. I didn't think I could handle the change in position and certainly didn't want to go hundreds of miles to find out if I could make the adjustment.

Then I got the Roubaix, and there was almost NO adjustment period. It took me a while to get used to the brifters, but in terms of my own comfort on the bike it was almost instant. Maybe one or two rides or so.

So I guess I'm saying there might be some truth in what the LBS guy says, and that it might not take as long. And I'm a guy who had terrible back problems years ago.

I wonder if he is a prime candidate for a custom bike, but can good ones be had for under..... say.... $3000?


Yen,

Here's an idea: Rodriguez. I don't own a Rodriguez, but they are great people. Read carefully what they say about blending comfort and performance (under the section marked, "Our philosophy.")

I've watched them fitting people and they are very meticulous -- they have a full wall of stems in every shape and angle, for example, and swap them out until they find the right one.

If you're not shopping somewhere w/that philosophy, go elsewhere.

They have a number of great models starting at around $2600, complete.

www.rodcycle.com (http://www.rodcycle.com)

(edit - I just noticed someone else suggested the same thing.)

I believe that *lots* of people who buy custom don't really need it, but they give up in frustration because they can't find a LBS who will listen to their needs and be patient with them. Sending a customer our the door with an ill-fitting bike that the customer is supposed to "get used to" is a terrible business practice, in my view. The good news for me is this: there are lots of great used bikes around that have never really been ridden because their original owners never got through the break-in period!

Has anyone actually used the Ergostem or the Ritchey adjustable? I've been thinking about getting one, but they are so pricey I'd hate to shell out the money if they didn't really help.

Also, how long should you ride before you conclude that your position just isn't going to work? My LBS keeps telling me to "give it some more time". Is 6-700 miles enough?

Also, how long should you ride before you conclude that your position just isn't going to work? My LBS keeps telling me to "give it some more time". Is 6-700 miles enough?

I Know I keep on about it- But the OCR was the first road bike I bought. It was just to see if I liked road riding or not but that bike taught me a lot. First thing was that I do not like riding with my head between my knees. The back would not take it- and the neck and the shoulders. Analysed it a bit and I got a stem with a steep rise to bring the bars level with the saddle. On the comfort stakes- This was all I needed. Attachments are of the Bike as new from the shop- up against the bike shed- And the one up against the garage is how it is with the high rise stem.

But all that has changed- Different bike- Different Geometry and Boreas has the bars 3" below the saddle and that is comfortable and efficient.

While I was sorting the Bars on the OCR- My LBS suggested borrowing an adjustable stem to find out where I want the bars. Didn't try it- But that is what I would use an adjustable stem for. To find out where I want the bars to be- And then get a rigid stem to those dimensions.


And I knew after a month that the stem had to be changed. That would have been about 2-300 miles.

Has anyone actually used the Ergostem or the Ritchey adjustable? I've been thinking about getting one, but they are so pricey I'd hate to shell out the money if they didn't really help.



I have the Ritchey on my Coda. It works just fine for me. Cannot imagine it ever failing, the adjustable parts are splined and held in place with substantial fasteners. You have to completely disassemble it to change the angle. The aesthetics and potentially weight seem to be the only real differences in that one and one that is rigid.

Also, how long should you ride before you conclude that your position just isn't going to work? My LBS keeps telling me to "give it some more time". Is 6-700 miles enough?

I Know I keep on about it- But the OCR was the first road bike I bought. It was just to see if I liked road riding or not but that bike taught me a lot. First thing was that I do not like riding with my head between my knees. The back would not take it- and the neck and the shoulders. Analysed it a bit and I got a stem with a steep rise to bring the bars level with the saddle. On the comfort stakes- This was all I needed. Attachments are of the Bike as new from the shop- up against the bike shed- And the one up against the garage is how it is with the high rise stem.

But all that has changed- Different bike- Different Geometry and Boreas has the bars 3" below the saddle and that is comfortable and efficient.

While I was sorting the Bars on the OCR- My LBS suggested borrowing an adjustable stem to find out where I want the bars. Didn't try it- But that is what I would use an adjustable stem for. To find out where I want the bars to be- And then get a rigid stem to those dimensions.

Edit- Sorry about the double posting but it will not delete and I am experiencing a few problems at present on the Computer.

While I have never ridden one there is always the option of a ........recumbent.

My shoulders need some work and I'm trying to find a 'Bent' to ride to see if it will help with my problems. My assumption is that there would be little, if any, pressure on the shoulders.

Good luck.


****Just re-read your post and saw the 'Don't go there' about Bents......Sorry.

Whew! Thank you for all your suggestions, comments, and links we'll look at together later.

We just returned from running an errand and while we were in the neighborhood we dropped in to an LBS where we've shopped before. The guys in there are super helpful and, though very young, we NEVER feel like they're talking to a couple of old fogies. One of them completely understands and agrees with Hubby's philosophy about the next size bigger bike being better for him, since he is all legs and it will give him a taller head tube that more than makes up for the longer TT.

At the shop, he rode a 60cm C'dale Synapse on which they put a 100mm 45-degree stem. He felt very good with that, and doesn't care that the stem is angled up that much. With narrower, compact bars, that will bring him a tad further up and back. He's going to insist on that size or whatever is compatible in the Roubaix or whatever bike he chooses to buy. We'll ask for that at the LBS tomorrow when we return the borrowed C'dales.

Given his height (6 feet) and very long legs, there isn't a WSD bike big enough to accommodate his legs.

Thanks again.... your answers are so helpful.

I identify with your hubby's concerns, and felt the same way when I was riding my Trek 3900 mtb but thinking of maybe getting a road bike and drop bars. I didn't think I could handle the change in position and certainly didn't want to go hundreds of miles to find out if I could make the adjustment.

Then I got the Roubaix, and there was almost NO adjustment period. It took me a while to get used to the brifters, but in terms of my own comfort on the bike it was almost instant. Maybe one or two rides or so.

So I guess I'm saying there might be some truth in what the LBS guy says, and that it might not take as long. And I'm a guy who had terrible back problems years ago.

DG, glad that worked for you. Unfortunately, after 2 long rides he knows he's too stretched out. He wants to be leaning as much as he does on his Schwinn, and no more. His artificial shoulder -- and the other one that's almost at that point -- and his neck between them were just too painful. Discomfort or feeling stretched out is one thing (which is my case)... pain is another.

I would have thought anyone selling a Roubaix would be on board with exactly what you are describing. Similarly, the Trek Pilot is a performance bike that will accommodate any riding position in total comfort; and, if Hubby is a tall guy, the Pilot comes in a large 63c frame size (that probably is the size that Hubby will fit best--the size "L" can accommodate even taller riders and since it has a down-sloping top tube, standover height probably would not be an issue for a 6-footer).

http://www.trekbikes.com/us/en/bikes/2008/road/pilot/pilot50/

http://www.trekbikes.com/images/bikes/2008/medium/pilot50_whitered.jpg

The Pilot has a hand position that's 15mm higher than, e.g., a Madone, because the Pilot has a longer headtube, which is a good starting point if Hubby will need a stem with greater rise for better fit and comfort.

www.rodcycle.com (http://www.rodcycle.com)


I've been at the site and reading their philosophy this evening, and it has piqued my interest.

The only thing I can't find at their site is how to get their fitting from out-of-state, and once the bike arrives, if something needs adjusting, is it then shipped back, and then returned again?

... Hubby's philosophy about the next size bigger bike being better for him, since he is all legs and it will give him a taller head tube that more than makes up for the longer TT.

At the shop, he rode a 60cm C'dale Synapse on which they put a 100mm 45-degree stem. He felt very good with that, and doesn't care that the stem is angled up that much. With narrower, compact bars, that will bring him a tad further up and back. He's going to insist on that size or whatever is compatible in the Roubaix or whatever bike he chooses to buy. We'll ask for that at the LBS tomorrow when we return the borrowed C'dales.

Given his height (6 feet) and very long legs, ...

I'm still trying to figure out what seems like a contradiction here. I understand why he wants a taller head tube and that a taller handlebar position effectively shortens the top tube. But with legs long for his height and thus a short torso, it seems the longer top tube of the larger size bike would still make the reach too long, especially with all you've said about how he doesn't want to be too stretched out. Maybe I'm just not understanding something.

I'm still trying to figure out what seems like a contradiction here. I understand why he wants a taller head tube and that a taller handlebar position effectively shortens the top tube. But with legs long for his height and thus a short torso, it seems the longer top tube of the larger size bike would still make the reach too long, especially with all you've said about how he doesn't want to be too stretched out. Maybe I'm just not understanding something.

It doesn't make any sense to me either. The only thing I can figure out is that the taller head tube, and ability to lower the saddle a bit on a taller bike, more than makes up for the difference in TT length. If I didn't notice it myself by sitting on the larger Madone vs. the one that I thought was my size, I wouldn't believe it either.

Keep in mind that most manufacturers don't like more than 4cm's of exposed carbon steer tube under those spacers between headset and bottom of the stem. Kind of makes you wish for those old one inch threaded headsets into which you could insert your Nitto long quill stem and ride as upright as you liked.

Your hub might consider a titanium Habanero for $800 the stock frame, but for $1200 Mark Hickey the owner will custom you a frame in whatever geometry you need. Check it out: http://www.habcycles.com/ A complete custom bike can come in around $2500.

A lot of people have had very good experiences with HabCycles. I've corresponded with Mark and am seriously considering...take a look.

That's it! Habanero! I was searching for that name today, racking my brain trying to remember the name after seeing the photo of this gorgeous bike (http://www.sheldonbrown.com/images/haba-classic-big.jpeg) about a month ago.

Thank you. This is another data point to give to Hubby to float around in his head with all the others......

A pleasure to help, Yen......payback for all your posts I've enjoyed. Your poor Hubster-- avalanched with data-points. Few things can match the stress of buying a new bike....well, sorta.

A pleasure to help, Yen......payback for all your posts I've enjoyed. Your poor Hubster-- avalanched with data-points. Few things can match the stress of buying a new bike....well, sorta.

Thanks. :o

Honesty, I feel like just picking something and getting this over with. Every day that we're out driving from one LBS to another, is a day we're not out riding. I loved the ride on the Roubaix.... and I love the idea of custom.... and I hate the idea of spending that much money.... but I want to get as much bike as I can afford and for it to last for many years..... but I don't want "too much bike" (to quote my pal TruF)....... :cry:

Have you considered taking the bike that he likes along when you are bike shopping? That would seem to me a big help to the folks that are trying to help you find something that he is comfortable with.

Have you considered taking the bike that he likes along when you are bike shopping? That would seem to me a big help to the folks that are trying to help you find something that he is comfortable with.

We took the bike once, but he didn't specifically say "make it fit exactly like this one"..... he just said "I like the way I fit on this bike". That's in our very short-term plans.

Thanks. :o

Honesty, I feel like just picking something and getting this over with. Every day that we're out driving from one LBS to another, is a day we're not out riding. I loved the ride on the Roubaix.... and I love the idea of custom.... and I hate the idea of spending that much money.... but I want to get as much bike as I can afford and for it to last for many years..... but I don't want "too much bike" (to quote my pal TruF)....... :cry:

Hey Yen! Glad to see you back in the forum. I figured you needed a break from all the advice we so freely like to offer round these parts. I may have been worried about getting too much bike a while back, but as you know I got it anyway and really, really, REALLY enjoy it. Today I went to the LBS to try out shoes and pedals and got "too much shoe!" That darn bike shop owner was pretty smart. The first pair he had me try were a pair of Sidi's. They felt delicious until I saw the price. I said "no-no" and tried on about three other pairs of shoes. You can guess what happened.

Life is short. If you can afford it and you really like it, exactly whose are those voices telling you that it's "too much bike?" ;)

Too much bike? As Grant P. says, a good bike won't make you better, but then, it won't hold you back either. I think a bike you consider to be a "good" one (and that's relative for many of us) is one that asks us to do a little more than your old bike did and, strange to say, somehow gets more out of us. Maybe its just mental-- or maybe there is some magic about growing up into a good bike. And then, there's just simple pride in a fine, graceful instrument.

Or, you can spend the money on new subflooring for the bathroom. Your choice.

I have Dimension adjustables on my 3 bikes, they work great and I can dial in all my bikes to feel pretty much the same fit. 2 bikes 60cm 1 bike 58cm. I kind of like the way they look too.

Today I went to the LBS to try out shoes and pedals and got "too much shoe!" That darn bike shop owner was pretty smart. The first pair he had me try were a pair of Sidi's. They felt delicious until I saw the price. I said "no-no" and tried on about three other pairs of shoes. You can guess what happened.

Life is short. If you can afford it and you really like it, exactly whose are those voices telling you that it's "too much bike?" ;)

Part of the learning curve. I always start cheaper than I intend to spend and then go up till something feels right. Helmets are where I learn't this. Start cheap and keep trying till one feels comfortable and only 30% above your limit. Starting with Sidi's and seeing if anything else feels as good is a clever selling technique.

Hey Yen! Glad to see you back in the forum. I figured you needed a break from all the advice we so freely like to offer round these parts. I may have been worried about getting too much bike a while back, but as you know I got it anyway and really, really, REALLY enjoy it. Today I went to the LBS to try out shoes and pedals and got "too much shoe!" That darn bike shop owner was pretty smart. The first pair he had me try were a pair of Sidi's. They felt delicious until I saw the price. I said "no-no" and tried on about three other pairs of shoes. You can guess what happened.

Life is short. If you can afford it and you really like it, exactly whose are those voices telling you that it's "too much bike?" ;)

Yep, I think that's what this LBS owner is doing... loaning bikes not just our size, but with full Ultegra or, in this week's case on the C'dales, DA. :cry:

So what kind of pedals did you get, Truf?

Yep, I think that's what this LBS owner is doing... loaning bikes not just our size, but with full Ultegra or, in this week's case on the C'dales, DA. :cry:

So what kind of pedals did you get, Truf?

Yes, clever LBS owner. And I think I also fell victim to a touch of guilt. This LBS isn't the place I bought my bike. He doesn't carried Specialized and has a small selection of other kinds of bikes. But we consider it our numero uno LBS because it is located on a bike trail that we use frequently, so we are always stopping in, chatting, using their bathroom, etc. They are always helpful and knowledgeable. Always lots of people there. We are all on first name basis and want to support this shop any way we can.

Didn't get pedals yet. Like I said, this is a small shop and he didn't have much of a selection. So he's ordering a couple different kinds for me to try, including Look and Frog. So stay tuned!

If our LBS always tried this tactic with me, I would lose my trust in him and stop shopping there. Are you feeling like your shop is manipulating you toward bikes that are really not what you want? Could he have the impression that you are looking for high-end components and is trying to show you bikes that have those? I know that sometimes I inadvertently set the tone by what I ask about. For example, when I was shopping for my bike, I told the shoe guy that I had just tried a Ruby Expert and really liked it. So he started steering me to comparable bikes immediately.

Hang in there, Yen! And if you are feeling overwhelmed by all this, maybe it's time to take a break? I know that I don't make good decisions when I'm feeling like that.

...If our LBS always tried this tactic with me, I would lose my trust in him and stop shopping there. Are you feeling like your shop is manipulating you toward bikes that are really not what you want? Could he have the impression that you are looking for high-end components and is trying to show you bikes that have those? I know that sometimes I inadvertently set the tone by what I ask about. For example, when I was shopping for my bike, I told the shoe guy that I had just tried a Ruby Expert and really liked it. So he started steering me to comparable bikes immediately.

Hang in there, Yen! And if you are feeling overwhelmed by all this, maybe it's time to take a break? I know that I don't make good decisions when I'm feeling like that.

I think is more of the latter. This shop is family-owned and very customer-service oriented with free lifetime maintenance on any bike purchased there, and the owner even offered to take our bikes himself to the shop if they ever need service (he doesn't live too far from us). I think Hubby went in on the first day and told him that I was trying to find a Roubaix Comp or Expert, and he found me both, but said that after riding the Expert I wouldn't want to look back. He took a lot of time to be sure I was fitted on the bikes, changed the bars, etc. before we took them home, and even stopped at the house to make an adjustment after I called about a concern. That's service WAY beyond my expectations. So, he gives a lot, and I'm willing to give in return, but not above my budget -- which I still need to determine.