Classic & Vintage - Riding without clips or straps on your feet?

Anyone here not into the fancy pedal/shoe thing? I have clips and straps on my main bike and was planning to go clipless this year but then this article made me think:

http://www.rivbike.com/article/clothing/the_shoes_ruse

Anyone here a "pedaling free" convert?

Interesting.

I gave up cycling specific shoes (SPD's) when I got my first folding bike about three years ago. Part of the folding bike thing is that the pedals fold; and nobody makes folding pedals for any type of cleated, click-in shoes. It took a little getting used to. Now I haven't used the SPD's for almost a year, and haven't missed them.

Three issues come to mind: 1, keeping your feet securely on the pedals, 2, using more leg muscles, and 3, bunny hops. Well for 1, keeping your feet on the pedals, fancy pedals helpful if you have long crank arms; but it's easy to keep your feet on the pedals with short crank arms. For 2, though I wish I did, the fact is I don't use more leg muscles when pedaling with clips/clipless, so that's not an issue either. But 3, I do miss the ability to do bunny hops. Oh, well.

On long rides, I much prefer to have toe-clips and straps, any aggressive pedal stroke can cause my feet to slip off without some kind of retention.

To each their own I suppose.

My road bikes (most of them) and fixed gear bikes have old school toe clips and straps while my mtb and winter bikes have BMX half step pedals. I learnt to bunny hop long before clip-less pedals were invented.

I like the fact that I can be well attached to my bike without going clipless, the straps offer some lateral stability, and that I can move my foot around as I ride as it does help a great deal when you are laying down epic mileage.

I also switch bikes from day to day and the change in riding positions is probably beneficial to preventing repetitive stress injuries and am sure it allows me to ride nearly every day with few complaints.

On pedalling - it is also true that experienced riders put almost no downward force on the rising non loaded pedal and only push with one leg at a time because it is more efficient.

One thing I did recently was to get myself a pair of
Avocet touring shoes. I can ride with clips n' straps but not have to
worry about fully clipping in.
I used them when I commuted back in the early 80's, easily walk in them
and grooves for pedals work well.
I got mine on ebay for less than $50. (thanks CdM!)

Marty

On pedalling - it is also true that experienced riders put almost no downward force on the rising non loaded pedal and only push with one leg at a time because it is more efficient.

Well, and also because it's physically impossible to push with both legs at once.

Rivendell expresses a lot of strong opinions on a lot of things, some of which make fairly good sense to me, some of which don't. As for the claim in this article that nearly everyone says you can power through 360 degrees of a pedal stroke with the use of clipless pedals, I've never actually heard that myself. They go on to say that all you stand to gain with clipless is putting less downward force on the pedal, which means you're fighting the other leg less. But then they say you actually can pull up on the pedal while using clipless during very steep climbs, and that this is indeed an advantage. Well, considering that very steep climbs, to me, are where you want all the advantage you can get, I'd say that's significant in itself.

All in all, I'd say the article is really just one person's opinion, written in a way that pretty much ridicules anyone who prefers clipless pedals. This, of course, plays right to the notion that retro-grouchy is almost always best, a Rivendell mainstay. I think this particular article is mostly BS-

For casual riding, I'm sure there's no need for retention, but on longer/harder rides I like to be clipped or strapped in.

On my commuter I use power grips which I consider to be the best of both worlds. You can use any shoe, they are easy to get into and out of and you feel a good connection to the pedal.

I won't say the article is BS, but my experience with shoes has been very different. I've never been comfortable for more than about 5 miles in flimsy-soled shoes. I don't need cycling shoes, but anything
less than good running shoes ends up hurting fairly quickly. This is across a wide variety of pedals.

But then they say you actually can pull up on the pedal while using clipless during very steep climbs, and that this is indeed an advantage. Well, considering that very steep climbs, to me, are where you want all the advantage you can get, I'd say that's significant in itself.


I think not just very steep climbs, but long stretches at relatively tame gradients like 3-6% or so, where you're carrying some speed. When clipped in, you can relieve pressure on your quads by shifting some effort to the pedal that's pulling up. I find this really helps reduce lactic acid burn and allows me to maintain my momentum. I think the Riv. article, while making some valid points, misses that one - though I'm not sure maintaining climbing speed is an issue they're interested in addressing.

I've never had clips or clipless - always BMX platform pedals on all of my bikes.

I've always used toe clips and straps without any complaints.

I tried a pair of clipless pedals some years ago and didn't really feel they solved any problems over clips and straps. I'm about to put a pair of flat, 2-sided Lyotard pedals on one of my bikes, just to be able to hop on and run errands in whatever shoes I'm wearing.

On a long ride I'll go with the clips and straps.

I actually like most of what Rivendell has to say; honest anti-hype!

Three observations:

1. I ride straight pedals on my in-town singlespeed, which for the most part is an errand bike, but which I take for the occasional lunchtime workout. I tend to agree with this guys observations.

2. While I'm not sure that being attached to the pedal increases efficiency or power, it does let you get lazy; I find that my foot occasionally slips off of a pedal if I start daydreaming and not paying the attention which I should. It's like trail running versus track running; on the trail, you need to pay attention to balance, cadence, and footfall all the dang time.

3. There IS a benefit to a rigid shoe, at least in my case. I had to give up distance running because of a condition called hallux rigidus, which is essentially a thousand dollar Latin term for arthritic big toe joints. One of the things which I need, all the time, is a rigid shoe. Rigid cycling shoes dispense with the need for carbon fiber splints, which I wear otherwise. I don't know whether a lifetime of rigid shoes helps prevent hallux rigidus, but there you go.

Grant tends to play a little fast and loose with statistics and scientific studies, sometimes, when he gets on a roll. The studies don't say that being clipped in is bad, they just say that we don't pull up when pedaling. There are studies that say we pedal more efficiently clipped in. The extra efficiency is at the bottom of the stroke, where we pull thru, like scraping something off the bottom of your shoe. On the other hand, I have nothing against using flat pedals. I put a pair of Walmart pedals on my bike when it is in the trainer. Members of this forum don't generally race, so we do what we want. Personally, I feel safer with my clipless pedals than with cages. Post this in the Road Forum and watch the stuff hit the fan.

I think not just very steep climbs, but long stretches at relatively tame gradients like 3-6% or so, where you're carrying some speed. When clipped in, you can relieve pressure on your quads by shifting some effort to the pedal that's pulling up. I find this really helps reduce lactic acid burn and allows me to maintain my momentum. I think the Riv. article, while making some valid points, misses that one - though I'm not sure maintaining climbing speed is an issue they're interested in addressing.


Oh I agree. I was just restating an advantage even Rivendell conceded (very steep climbs). Personally, I find advantages with clipless on most any terrain-

It is all personal preference. I ride both ways and do not feel the need to tell others what is best for them. While I like and use a number of things that Rivendell supplies, the "David vs. Goliath " Schtick is starting to wear thin IMHO.

I'd like the author to explain why my wife felt pain in her feet when wearing sneakers and pedaling with platform pedals, but didn't feel pain when she switched to a cycling shoe with cleats and eggbeaters.

I've also seen people riding with non-cycling shoes on platform pedals, and their feet do flex down, so his claim that the foot tenses up and stays stiff on its own is BS.

He may be fine "pedaling free", but I'm perfectly happy with my clipless pedals and cycling shoes.

Ya pays your money and ya makes your choice. I personally prefer flat non-retentive pedals. Grant's an interesting person and has some valid viewpoints. I agree with some and disagree with others although not many. For my longer, 25-40 miles, rides I use my 1958/70 Raleigh Trent Sports with flat rubber block pedals and Performance, $39.95 on sale, semi-rigid soled sport type shoes. I'm not a fast rider and usually spin up the hills. I've found that "riding free" suits me just fine. I have a set of LOOK 396 clipless pedals on the Univega Super Strada but I don't ride it much. I prefer the Raleigh Trent Sports, light roadster or R20 foliding bike for the majority of my riding. PG.

I feel like clipless is for people who take their bicycle riding much more seriously than I do. I've never taken it seriously, I just enjoy it. I've got power grips on all of my bikes, but I'm going back to clips on the Peugeot. I'm tempted to go with rubber blocks on the one I'm building now. I don't think I've ever seen rubber blocks on a Campy record crank.

I love the big giant "gents" platforms on my Raleigh Sports. I occasionally look down at my feet and my natural riding position on this bike has my right foot slanted toward the outer portion of the pedal and my left foot is straight. When I need to quickly take off (I know that "quick" and a "Raliegh Sports" aren't synonomous), I tend to pedal with my arches.

Not being strapped/clipped in works for me.

Although I rarely rode for most of my adult life, when I did, I always used clips & straps. My wife bought me some SPD pedals & shoes for Christmas and I love them. For me, they are much more comfortable than toe clips (these are very casual shoes with a stiff but walkable sole) and Shimano M520 pedals).

As I then had an extra pair of pedals w/ toe clips attached, I put them on my wife's bike (she fought it but I told her I would remove them after 1 ride if she didn't like them). She loved them. That first ride, her average speed increased by 2 mph and she said she felt she was exerting less effort. Not scientific but they seem to make a difference.

This article was mentioned in the commuter forum a couple of months back. For me, clipless is the only way to go. This is for a couple of reasons. I do pull up on the pedals, not often, just to give my quads a break. This really seems to help with fatigue.

The most important reason is because I spin and don't mash. I can't spin with flat platforms. I have arthritis in my left knee, well actually both but the left gives me the most problems. When I ride my one bike that doesn't have clipless system, the next day my knee will be in a lot of pain. If I ride only a short distance, say a mile or so, I am fine. Anything over that and I will be hurting the next day.

I like the idea of using any shoe, but in my case, it really isn't possible. I was thinking about getting some Powergrips. This might help.

My foot has slipped off the pedal in wet conditions a couple of times, once causing me to lose control and wipe out in the middle of a busy street. So I ride with clips now for safety. I also really like being able to draw my foot upwards at a stop and have the pedal go with it. I, for one, don't really care about the supposed speed benefits.

The safety downside is that if I do go down, I'm going with my bike, and it'd be difficult to maneuver away from it. My dad's been in accidents where he and his bike were on the street and he literally rolled over towards the parking lane to avoid getting hit while his bike got caught under a car. But for the type of accident I seem to be prone to, clips make sense.

I love clips and straps, but I really only run them on bikes which I ride purely for fun, and so where I wear cycling specific clothing. I definitely notice the difference in performance in certain places, and I like feeling anchored on the pedals (though I don't tighten them down hard). On the bikes I ride for utility or commuting purposes, however, I would never have clips, cos I need to wear whatever shoes I'm wearing, which might not be sneakers, but work shoes, or boots. I've considered powergrips, but never got there. I tried Look clipless, and I hate them.

All in all, I'd say the article is really just one person's opinion, written in a way that pretty much ridicules anyone who prefers clipless pedals. This, of course, plays right to the notion that retro-grouchy is almost always best, a Rivendell mainstay. I think this particular article is mostly BS-

+1, I ride SPD clipless on the road, MUP, and mountain biking. True I use MTB, softer shoes for all riding, but I did not find that article addressed the two reasons I use clipless. 1, They keep your feet positioned correctly for maximum efficiency. Maybe others have no problem positioning their feet on flats, but I tend to move my foot off the ball of the foot and toward the center of the foot, like I did when I was young. That's less efficient. 2, Now that I use clipless on my MTB, I won't go back. Riding downhill while standing is real dangerous if your feet are not clipped in. I've had my feet slip off too many times when I used flats and I was lucky, I never broke a leg. I'll continue to feed the myth.

I did not find that article addressed the two reasons I use clipless. 1, They keep your feet positioned correctly for maximum efficiency. Maybe others have no problem positioning their feet on flats, but I tend to move my foot off the ball of the foot and toward the center of the foot, like I did when I was young. That's less efficient.

He did address that issue in length:


More efficient muscle use, less chance of repetitive stress injury. Regular cycling shoes may give you some lateral float, but they lock your foot to the pedal (fore-and-aft wise) in one place, and that's not how we use our feet. When you go up stairs or do leg presses at the gym (efforts not unlike pedaling up a hill), you push with the middle of your foot. Not with the ball of your foot, as you've been told is proper for cycling.
When you run fast, you run on your toes (or off the ball of your foot). When you walk, you land on your heel. Middle-distance runners run off their mid-foot. Rock climbers use every part of their foot, depending on the rock and the move.
Your foot is just a foot, but you use it different ways for different kinds of efforts, and click-in cycling shoes don't let you do that.
On long grinding hills, it is absolutely more comfortable to pedal close to your arch. You can't do that if you're clicked in. And on longer rides, it's good to vary your foot's position over the pedal, because doing this calls on certain muscles in your legs, and puts others to rest.

Anyone here not into the fancy pedal/shoe thing? I have clips and straps on my main bike and was planning to go clipless this year but then this article made me think:

http://www.rivbike.com/article/clothing/the_shoes_ruse

Anyone here a "pedaling free" convert?

I was going to say, back for its annual airing...but apparently not quite so long ago.

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?p=5463850#poststop
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?p=5289108#poststop

Funny how he is the lone self proclaimed expert who feels that way. Yet all the other "...experts, riders, and the media []... [c]oaches, trainers, people we're supposed to listen to. Statesmen and Pillars of the Community. Even the Girl Next Door..." think otherwise. Oh yeah, exactly how many of those experts, riders, coaches, trainers, etc. have a financial stake in pushing clipless pedals and shoes? How about Grant? Oh yeah, he is selling platform pedals. If you believe what he is selling, then I have some tropical ocean front property in Siberia for you.

Anyone who advocates wearing sandals and socks is a fool in my book!:D
I have clipless pedals on my road bike, I like being locked in and it's not really pulling up on the backstroke that I do, more like pushing forward on the top of the pedals troke and pulling back on the bottom, you can't do this effeciently or effectively without being secured to the pedals. my forefoot is wide and flat toe clips and straps hurt my feet and did for years before I got clipless pedals and shoes.

On my mountain bike I have clipless pedals and hard soled sidi shoes. These serve a few purposes that aren't mentioned in the article, or mindless rant as it sounded to me (not that there's anything wrong with that).
1) foot protection. the bottom of my shoes have tons of deep scrapes where I have hit rocks, branches, trees whatever very hard while riding downhill. lets see a teva dirt hippie sandal, take a heel strike on a rock at 25-35mph! You, your heel and your bike would wish it was only a mere raccoon carcus, even if you were wearing wool socks.

2) control. I too learned to bunny hop and ride my bikes without any kind of foot retention device, but I move my bike around a lot with my feet, side to side, unweighting my inside foot when cornering, and a little more lift is always nice when an emergency air time is required.

This said, I do like riding without clips, all my vintage bikes have flat pedals, old raleigh or schwinn rubber blocks are my favorite, and I do wear sandals, never teva's and never with socks, but my riding on my vintage bikes is mostly cruising. cruising to work, cruising to the store, cruising to the pub (my favorite). but for serious cycling I'm locked in. no doubt.

Sorry, I'm a newbie!


I was going to say, back for its annual airing...but apparently not quite so long ago.

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?p=5463850#poststop
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?p=5289108#poststop

Funny how he is the lone self proclaimed expert who feels that way. Yet all the other "...experts, riders, and the media []... [c]oaches, trainers, people we're supposed to listen to. Statesmen and Pillars of the Community. Even the Girl Next Door..." think otherwise. Oh yeah, exactly how many of those experts, riders, coaches, trainers, etc. have a financial stake in pushing clipless pedals and shoes? How about Grant? Oh yeah, he is selling platform pedals. If you believe what he is selling, then I have some tropical ocean front property in Siberia for you.

I think not just very steep climbs, but long stretches at relatively tame gradients like 3-6% or so, where you're carrying some speed. When clipped in, you can relieve pressure on your quads by shifting some effort to the pedal that's pulling up. I find this really helps reduce lactic acid burn and allows me to maintain my momentum. I think the Riv. article, while making some valid points, misses that one - though I'm not sure maintaining climbing speed is an issue they're interested in addressing.

+1

The pedals on my Superbe and J.A. Holland are free (haven't found toe clips that will mount on the Holland's pedals).

When I'm riding pedals with clips and straps, I make sure I can slide my feet out without having to reach down. I find it helps to keep my feet in the right position on the pedals, and I can use the up-stroke to add a little bit of power.

Most of my bikes have clipless pedals mounted on them though. The positive is that they help improve performance (such as mine is), allow me to use other muscles and delay fatigue, and they make a huge difference keeping cadence up on slight - moderate inclines. The downside is that on longer rides, they do contribute to getting hot spots. This can be mitigated by making minute adjustments to seat height, but there's no eliminating it entirely with LOOK style pedals and cleats.

Sorry, I'm a newbie!

No, it's okay, don't worry.

Platform pedals are okay for just riding around town and whatnot; but when you start to turn the screws so to speak, some sort of shoe to pedal retention is best. Now IMHO clipless with float is way better than straps for any performance road riding, but there are arguments to be made by those who espouse clips and straps too. I guess my point (you have to read the other threads, as they beat this topic to death.) is that Grant Peterson speaks in absolutes, that clipless are never needed, it's a lie and a myth, as he says. For one, he is just plain wrong, and two he has no credibility on the subject as he is attempting to sell a low end pedal system for high end prices, that no one in the know would want otherwise.
And that is my opinion with an equal amount of riding experience and no financial stake.

I'm not giving up clips/straps anytime soon, I am just starting to get halfway decent at not falling over when mounting.

If being strapped in produced better pedal strokes than being clipped in, the pros would still be strapping in, as wins=money

About this bunny hopping, I'm not good at it, using clipless pedals, but can do it a bit. A few months ago I watched a young teenager on a BMX, wearing plain old sneakers, ride parallel to an eight inch curb, and then casually hop sideways up onto it. Wow! How did he do that! I wouldn't have dreamed of doing that when I was a boy.

Anyone here not into the fancy pedal/shoe thing?

I'm not, but it's because I'm a klutz and I'm afraid of anything that offers the chance to tangle myself up with the bike more than I already do. (Seriously. I've donethe falling-over-at-a-stop-sign thing more than once, with platform pedals...)

Also, I am poor (student), and I can't fork out for special shoes and pedals.

About this bunny hopping, I'm not good at it, using clipless pedals, but can do it a bit. A few months ago I watched a young teenager on a BMX, wearing plain old sneakers, ride parallel to an eight inch curb, and then casually hop sideways up onto it. Wow! How did he do that! I wouldn't have dreamed of doing that when I was a boy.

What's fun is to bunny hop on a lightweight full suspension mountain bike. Compress the suspension as much as you can, then explode upwards. It's amazing what you can hop over. Clipless pedals are part of the equation in getting the most height possible.

Tried power grips for a couple of thousand miles. Ok.

Then for two thousand miles on SPD's. Foot numbness always ensued after ten miles or so--but never enough to keep me from my twenty, eased by moving to the correctly proportioned wider brooks saddle (I'm a 48 xLong XXL sized person).

This winter I too perused Mr. Peterson's missive in favor of just say no to clipless.

On my winter build, I mounted my MKS Sylvan Touring pedals. No Power Grips. Wonder of wonders--no more foot numbness, even with very soft soled sneakers.

Do I miss SPD's? You bet. The thing is, they feel so much better than platforms. But are they? Well, I dunno. I have them mounted now on my 'B' bike, my backup bike. I'm still too enthralled with my winter build (seriously customized Miyata Six Ten '84--which the guys at the LBS called 'the quietest bike they ever rode') to go back and consider the SPD's.

Also, it took me so many tries to get the clips positioned somewhat correctly on my hard to find Lake MX101 WIDE shoes that I am loathe to remove them so I can test their hard soles with the platforms.

But ask me again next year. I'll probably have a different yet well reasoned as ever opinion.

Is being strapped to pedals, or clipped in required to ride? Of course not. Not all kinds of rides are desirable to be attached. I have Look, SPD, clips/straps, and standard pedals on my bikes. And like most here, don't have just a single bike. I don't take out a time trial bike with aero suit and helmet to go for a park ride with the kiddies. :D
But to say attaching to your pedals is a waste, is like someone stating 5-point safety harnesses aren't required when a 3-point seatbelt is available and widely used. Tour cycling isn't the standard of all cycling. When racing, training, 'sport' riding is the goal, then it's equipment that'll increase your enjoyment and safety. I like clipless over clips/straps for the safety advantage. I don't need to reach down to the straps. And attaching oneself DOES promote more efficient pedaling.

I like options, so my pedal of choice on several bikes is the Shimano PD-M324: cage on the one side and SPD mount on the other. They're not lightweight, and they don't look particularly vintage (nor do eggbeaters for that matter!), but for my very wide feet, they work well. I've never been comfortable with toe clips, though I rode with them for years. My wide feet would develop hot spots like crazy. That said, I probably have MKS touring pedals with no retention on more of my bikes than any other pedal. I'm thinking about putting Power Grips on one of those, but that means riding with narrower shoes than I usually use. This wide-feet thing is definitely a limiting factor.

Neal

What's fun is to bunny hop on a lightweight full suspension mountain bike. Compress the suspension as much as you can, then explode upwards. It's amazing what you can hop over. Clipless pedals are part of the equation in getting the most height possible.

You should take that over the BMX forum or talk to the guys who do urban trick riding... they don't use clipless or clips and I don't know of any people who can launch a bike higher than they do.

i pull up on one pedal while pushing down on the other (especially when climbing or sprinting or riding fixed gear) so this wouldn't work for me.

You should take that over the BMX forum or talk to the guys who do urban trick riding... they don't use clipless or clips and I don't know of any people who can launch a bike higher than they do.


Okay, I bow to the BMX guys when it comes to that stuff. But I still say it's a lot of fun to hop over things on a mountain bike, and clipless pedals do help-

Test show Lance improved less than 1% when attached to the pedals. It seems that riding rough or dirt they would help if for no other reason than to keep your foot on the pedal. Unless you are better than Lance I doubt they improve your pedal power.

I rarely ride anything but platform pedals, although I also have a couple of bikes with toe clips. I've tried clipless pedals and hated them. I couldn't stand the feeling of not being able to move my foot around on the pedal. I used to use toeclips all the time, but now I'm not terribly fond of them either. I can ride plenty fast without them, and I can bunnyhop without them, and I'm more comfortable without them. So for me, there's really no appeal to them.

You should take that over the BMX forum or talk to the guys who do urban trick riding... they don't use clipless or clips and I don't know of any people who can launch a bike higher than they do.

Take away the miniature frames and their ability to crouch low before launch, and they lose a lot of their height.


Besides, most of those guys are crazy from repeatedly knocking their knees into their jaws whilst riding. :p :D

Tried clipless. Never went back to clips for serious riding. Have clips on some of my vintage rides but hate them as much as I always did. Maybe it's trying to fit size 12 shoes into the clips as you're flipping them up. Standard length straps are just too short, and even the longer ones are near their limit.

As far as no retention. Yeah, fine for beach cruising. That's about it. Maybe I'm just an idiot but I don't like my feet slipping off the pedals when I'm giving it my all.

As far as no retention. Yeah, fine for beach cruising. That's about it. Maybe I'm just an idiot but I don't like my feet slipping off the pedals when I'm giving it my all.

Yeah, I agree. Grant produces some fine retro-grouch rants, which I consider a valuable art form to be appreciated for their own merits and a useful reminder for the average rider that all new stuff really isn't required for typical recreational rides.

But we shouldn't take it too literally - of course performance riders get some benefit from all the latest bike schwag or they wouldn't use it. But your typical office worker who goes for his weekend club ride gets rather minimal benefit from it all. I'd say in their case getting decked out in the superhero Lycra outfits with clipless shoes and helmets is more of a fashion statement than function. Not that there's anything wrong with them choosing whatever fashion they want, it's just that others shouldn't think it's necessary to lay out hundreds of dollars in bike fashion to go on recreational or touring rides.

I am not a "serious" cyclist, maybe I'm even a poor one, but as long as I've had a bike that might be taken seriously, I've used clips and straps. I've used the same lightweight Rivat slippers for almost 25 years (wish I could find another pair), but could never get used to cleats, so I don't use 'em. However, whenever I have to ride a bike without clips, it drives me crazy. Don't tell me that nobody pulls on the upstroke, because I'm constantly lifting my feet off the pedals! Like a lot of folks have said here, I think that one just has to experiment a bit and find what one is most comfortable with.

I'll give up the clips when I can ride the 58cm bike that they suggest, instead of the 53-54 I can comfortably ride today

I have BMX pedals on most of my road bikes. They support the entire forward portion of the foot, not just a tiny bit of it. You can place your foot exactly where you want it, and with rubber soled shoes or sandals, your foot is securely locked to the pedal.

The only disadvantage: roadies are into fashion. You will lose a bunch of "cool" points with BMX pedals on a road bike, even if they are the "fancy" pedals sold by Rivendell with their $4,000 custom road bikes.