[superslomo]

I know that for Tig'ed applications the air hardening steels are indicated... I'm looking at a used waterford, which has 531 tubing on a lugged construction. Are there any reasons that the 531 would be less preferable than one of the newer CrMo alloying formulations?

Is it irrelevant if the frame is lugged and as such doesn't get any benefit from the air hardening properties of the newer steels?

How, generally, does 531 stack up in terms of weight and strength as against the newer steels?

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[Scooper]

Because of the low temperatures involved, there would be virtually no advantage using air hardening steels in the construction of silver brazed lugged frames.

531 isn't as strong as 753 or 853, so the tubes have slightly thicker walls and are marginally heavier. I have two frames, same size and geometry, one is 531 and the other is 953. The 531 frame and fork with headset weighs 7 pounds, 4 ounces. The 953 frame and chrome plated 531 fork with headset weighs 5 pounds, six ounces.

From Reynolds:

Reynolds 531 - cold drawn
UTS: 48 - 58 Tsi, 100 - 130 Ksi,
700 - 900 MPa
531 Competition Wall Thickness: 0.8/0.5/0.8 Double Butted Top Tube, 0.8/0.5 Single Butted Seat Tube, 0.9/0.6/0.9 Double Butted Down Tube

531 Super Tourist Wall Thickness: 1.0/0.7/1.0 Double Butted Top Tube, 1.0/0.7 Single Butted Seat Tube, 1.0/0.7/1.0 Double Butted Down Tube

This material, originally introduced in 1935, was the tube which set the standard for road and touring frames for many years, and is still requested by many riders today. Reynolds make 531 frame tubing to special order only, as our innovative 631air-hardening steel has allowed Reynolds to update this range.


Reynolds 753 - heat treated
UTS: 70 - 83 Tsi, 157 - 186 Ksi,
1080 - 1280 MPa
Wall Thickness: 0.7/0.5/0.7 Double Butted Top Tube, 0.7/0.5 Single Butted Seat Tube, 0.8/0.5/0.8 Double Butted Down Tube

Due to the chemical nature of the material, manganese molybdenum, when heat treated, has to be joined with care. The temperature when joining the frame has to be kept relatively low, and we recommend silver and the use of lugs for this operation. As the use of a silver solder requires special skills, Reynolds have introduced a certification procedure for builders and will only sell this material to those who have completed the procedure. 753 is an ideal material for use in road and track frames as it is a thin gauge, tight tolerance tube. 753 will only be available to special order for builders and Reynolds recommend the use of the heat treated CrMo seatstays and chainstays (725) to complete the frame.


Reynolds 853 - heat treated
UTS: 81 - 91 Tsi, 180 - 210 Ksi,
1250 - 1450 MPa

STEEL IS REAL !

This seamless air-hardening steel tube sets new standards for professional cycle frames and proves that steel still has a future at the highest levels. It is suitable for TIG welding and brazing, using lugged or lugless construction. The production process ensures tight tolerance, gauge tubes. The strength to weight ratio of 853 is close to that of quality titanium frames. A normal chrome molybdenum steel will lose strength in the joints after the heat has been applied.

This material (853) INCREASES in strength as the frame cools to strengths well in excess of the delivered values shown above. This unique air hardening property of Reynolds 853 provides additional strength through reduced microyielding at the joints, allowing 'stiffer' frames with excellent fatigue strength (when compared to standard chrome molybdenum) and a superior ride quality from the finished frame. On road and touring frames we recommend the use of 631 or 725 fork blades with 853 frames.

We offer this tube set in many sizes for custom framebuilders, and is suitable for lightweight frames, strong/tall riders and has also been specified for free-ride and BMX frames due to its' high impact strength.

[wagathon]

To me, Reynolds 853 makes a great feeling, traditional looking (but super-clean sans lugs) steel frame; although 853 does not require lugs, does Waterford offer 853 up with lugs if you want it ... or, is lugged-531 their only steel frame option? Just curious. (even if you can go with 853, they'll use something different for the seat stays, e.g., 725)

[bikejack]

531 isn't as strong as 753 .

Then again 531 isn't as notorious for snapping as 753, there weren't many full 753 frames produced as many builders used 531 rears for stiffness and 531 forks to avoid loosing customers.

531 is a manganese molybdenum tube which toughens more than hardens from the heat, excellent tube for lugged and braze welded lugless construction.

There are different 531 thicknesses, 531c (competition) is the lightest.

[tzracer]

To me, Reynolds 853 makes a great feeling, traditional looking (but super-clean sans lugs) steel frame; although 853 does not require lugs, does Waterford offer 853 up with lugs if you want it ... or, is lugged-531 their only steel frame option? Just curious. (even if you can go with 853, they'll use something different for the seat stays, e.g., 725)

Why not just give Waterford a call - 262-534-4190.

[wagathon]

Why not just give Waterford a call - 262-534-4190.

I think that might be a call that a prospective custom bike buyer might make if he or she went into the decision-making process knowing that they wanted lugs. Otherwise, for me, there is no decision to make (e.g., not looking for a touring bike): I've had two 853 bikes and other bikes made with Reynolds 7- (stays), 6- and 5-series CroMo frames, plus whatever water pipes were used to make my old '86 Sumpjumper or '63 Schwinn Sierra, and 853 is numero uno, lugs or no lugs, to make a good road bike. To make a good touring bike, perhaps given all of the pros and cons, a lugged 531 frame just may be the ideal.