General Cycling Discussion - Shimanos new marketing and your wallet

I was talking with a well respected bike retailer local to me the other day and found out that we can look for significant increases in Shimano stuff this next season.

Seems thay are changing the marketing strategies a bit and are fixing the bottom end retail prices so that a retailer must charge X ( minimum )amount or lose Shimano product lines. And the new price list that he showed me was outrageous. I'll be looking seriously at alternatives to Shimano.

Of course it works out good for LBS in that online marketers are subject to the same minimums. The consumer loses on this deal however.

I've seen X-mart stores often advertising "Shimano" on their bikes, could this move be an attempt to eliminate them?

I thought price fixing was illegal?

I thought price fixing was illegal?

In this country it is, however, the law is very vague and does allow for loopholes sometimes. Basically, if Shimano could argue to a judge that there were other reasons for discontinuing to supply a particular retailer (possibly that the shop owner lacks in expertise on the product, or doesn't have the proper capacity to display it properly or something on those lines) they could get away with dumping retailers. Of course, if they start doing it too often, they may not be able to convince too many judges.

I think Shimano is overrated in the first place. My preference has always been Suntour from way back. Suntour is still available in Europe, but for some reason has been entirely supplanted by Shimano here in the USA. I say boycott the tossers if they can't be reasonable!

How much did dura ace cost last year? My local store is offering 2004 dura ace minus the hubs for $1300. I was under the impression that it was just about the same price last year.

Can you line-item what exactly you get for $1300? I bought a Shimano Dura-ace rear derailleur back in about '81, and it was a piece of crap, didn't last six months. I can't imagine paying $1300 for this stuff...please, elucidate me on why this is desirable equipment at a reasonable price...

Holy Crap!!! 1300 is more than I paid for my bike! And it wasn't a cheap one. No wonder cycling is not popular. The average schmoe can only afford a second hand Huffy. You would think that you could get a quality bicycle for $1000

In this country it is, however, the law is very vague and does allow for loopholes sometimes. Basically, if Shimano could argue to a judge that there were other reasons for discontinuing to supply a particular retailer (possibly that the shop owner lacks in expertise on the product, or doesn't have the proper capacity to display it properly or something on those lines) they could get away with dumping retailers. Of course, if they start doing it too often, they may not be able to convince too many judges.

A large retail supermarket in the UK, Tesco, was hauled into court by Levi for selling their jeans for way less than 50% of the Levi store prices. Levi argued that consumers need to be able trust the source of their products, and that the brand would be compromised by selling it in less than ideal environments. In short, the usual bullsh1t you expect from a company like that. The jeans are made in the same dirty sweatshops in Mexico and the Phillippines for a few dollars. Levi won. Consumers lost.

Gee,i feel better to know shimano will be the only one to raise prices,thanks for the info.

Marketing 101 - Price product at a cost the market will bear that maximizes profit within marketshare.

Consumerism 101 - Evaluate product using cost vs. benefit analysis when making purchasing choices.

Fail either class and suffer the financial consequences. Pretty basic stuff ;)

I thought price fixing was illegal?
I think price-fixing has more to do with one company getting together with another company say Shimano & Campy decide they are going to charge everyone X amount for similar products that would be price-fixing. Not so sure that one company unless they have a monopoly can be found guilty of price-fixing. That's the primary reason utility companies who have/had monopolies in markets were governed when it came to rate changes.

I'm curious to know how Shimano got so big. Years ago their components were found on entry level bikes and wasn't exactly impressive.

Regards.

I'm curious to know how Shimano got so big. Years ago their components were found on entry level bikes and wasn't exactly impressive.

Regards.
You can find them on most any bike,from walmart to tdf.

[I will be going full campy next year :D :D

I'm curious to know how Shimano got so big. Years ago their components were found on entry level bikes and wasn't exactly impressive.

Regards.

They bought suntour and used to make really good fishing reels. I have heard that Shimano was going to crack down un un authorized sales of their parts I didn't realize they were going to make us consumers grab our ankles when they did it. I really miss suntour they made some great stuff. My first Bianchi was all suntour. My friend still owns a Nishiki with suntours I find it a joy to work on it.

Since the American dollar is currently worth about .87 cents compared to the Euro dollar, you are going to find substantial price increases coming from Europe. The increases began this year but will be much higher in 2004.

I believe there is a law, here in the states, that says a company can not dictate how high a price you can charge. Companies get around that by saying how little you must sell it for in order to retain your ability to stock certain products.

They bought suntour and used to make really good fishing reels. I have heard that Shimano was going to crack down un un authorized sales of their parts I didn't realize they were going to make us consumers grab our ankles when they did it. I really miss suntour they made some great stuff. My first Bianchi was all suntour. My friend still owns a Nishiki with suntours I find it a joy to work on it.

I remember those 10 spds and Suntour. There was also a lot of Campy, Simplex and Huret around in the old daze. I guess I never gave much thought to Shimano,but they sure are big today. Maybe too big?

Regards.

Shimano is the same way with their fishing equipment. You cannot find it on discount. They have used the time proven method of buying up market share and now that they have some 90% in the north American market they will use this muscle to put pricing controls on their products.

BTW, Campy Forever! It is better gear, in any event.

I believe there is a law, here in the states, that says a company can not dictate how high a price you can charge. Companies get around that by saying how little you must sell it for in order to retain your ability to stock certain products.

There is a law against price fixing where more than one company in a certain market get together and set prices like what happen in the recording industry. There is a law against what I believe they call dumping which is under cutting your competitors to corner the market. But there is no law against shimano saying you have to sell our product at this rate or you can not sell our product.

I might add that doesn't mean you have to buy Shimano, maybe its time to check out campy

Check out SRAM if you're an MTBer.

Check out SRAM if you're an MTBer.

I'm real pleased with the reliability of my SRAM grip shifters and just switched to a SRAM PC-68 chain,which is high quality and the power link is outasite and fast to work with. I may give their derailleurs a wirl,since I don't like big monopolies which is what Shimano has become.

Regards.

I've got Suntour shocks on the European Trek I bought last year, so Suntour is still making some components, but possibly not doing distribution anymore in the US?

SunTour is fine!

I might add that doesn't mean you have to buy Shimano, maybe its time to check out campy
Crapy cost just as much and a lot less people know how to work on it.

For those interested: Suntour is distributed in the US by Sidetrak in Seattle, WA. http://www.sidetrak.com

Shokhead is absolutely correct. Very few repairs can be done on Shimano and that is the way Shimano wants it and the way they are designed. Shimano furthers this by offering little in the way of service parts. If it has a broken part then you are generally stuck with replacing the entire offending piece. That is why no one knows how to work on anything at most LBS's anymore. They are just like computer stores or electronics outlets. They don't repair, they replace. So that means they don't know anything about Campy, either. They are not used to working on and repairing anything (especially items of quality, like Campy). They simply replace it. That is also why I do my own work. Only LBS worth taking my bikes to is 75 miles from here. They will repair Campy and throw out and replace Shimano. Just like 95% of LBSs. They don't know squat.

Shimano should be tried for antitrust laws.

That is why no one knows how to work on anything at most LBS's anymore...They are just like computer stores or electronics outlets...They don't repair, they replace...Just like 95% of LBSs. They don't know squat.

Part of the problem is that your / my LBS considers a bike mechanic to be an entry level position that pays squat, so good mechanics move on to sales or management where they make a lot more money.

If your lucky like me my 2 LBS I frequent the owner is also the head mechanic, ones a family operation and it is dad, mom, brother and sister and they all turn the wrench. Your right about most LBS though they do bring in mechanics as entry level and do not pay well. But being and ex small business owner money for these kinds of operations are tight.

They bought suntour and used to make really good fishing reels.
Shimano has been making bike parts for almost as long as Suntour. Fishing reels came much later (using the same freewheel/hub technology). What really made them big was the acceptance of SIS. As far as I know SR Suntour is actually owned by a Taiwanese company.

Suntour essentially went out of business. They are still around in name, but company is a different entity. Check out this link for a good history of what happened to Suntour.
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~hadland/page35.htm

I am sure Shimano also have more aggressive sales tactics. Look at most bikes that ship and they tend to have Shimano parts. I am sure that the OEM market is where they are really cleaning up.


Very few repairs can be done on Shimano and that is the way Shimano wants it and the way they are designed.
It's called Planned Obsolescence. The strategy has been around as long as people have been Marketing products (notice I use Marketing with a capital M). The question as to whether or not it is ethical is one of those questions that float around big business. Personally, I don't like it. In my opionion, consumers ultimately respond negatively to this kind of thing. It takes time, but business practices motivated by the bottom line rather than producing quality materials and services has killed even the largest companies.


Shimano should be tried for antitrust laws.
Why? There are lots of great alternatives. Don't be swayed by smooth marketing and comments like "XTR rules, dude". Vote by buying something else. It does mean having to be a more informed consumer, though. Let your purchasing power speak for you.

- Jeff

Since the American dollar is currently worth about .87 cents compared to the Euro dollar...

WTF is "Euro dollar"? :D

On a more related note, I thought Suntour was bought by the Taiwanese Sakae Ringyo Co resulting to SR Suntour?

--J

It is supposed to be the current currency in most of Europe. Maybe Finland hasn't joined the European Union.

It never fails to amaze me when people complain when companies attempt to get the most dollar from their customers. Read my lips, contrary to what is shown in their advertisements – THAT’S WHAT COMPANIES DO, and Shimano is no different! Shimano is not in this gig for the fun of cycling.

Shimano, and every other company, is in this thing to maximize shareholder profit. EVERYTHING thing else is in a VERY distant tie for second place.

It never fails to amaze me when people complain when companies attempt to get the most dollar from their customers. Read my lips, contrary to what is shown in their advertisements – THAT’S WHAT COMPANIES DO, and Shimano is no different! Shimano is not in this gig for the fun of cycling.

Shimano, and every other company, is in this thing to maximize shareholder profit. EVERYTHING thing else is in a VERY distant tie for second place.

Except in this case they are not increasing THIER bottom line. They are controlling the retail price to the end-user. They are telling thier dealers how much profit they make. The dealers pay them the same amount either way, so this does nothing to Shimano's bottom line. This is clearly an attempt to get on-line sellers and the BIG dealers to sell at a higher price. While it may not be illegal, it certainly DOES hurt the end user in the wallet. They make it pointless to shop around to get a better deal. I really hope it backfires on them.
If only SRAM and some other companies would step up and offer stiffer competition to the "Big 2".

Except in this case they are not increasing THIER bottom line. They are controlling the retail price to the end-user. They are telling thier dealers how much profit they make. The dealers pay them the same amount either way, so this does nothing to Shimano's bottom line.

Why would Shimano do this? Are they doing this to increase the bottom line of their retailers? I don't understand Shimano's motivation - and they have to have a motivation.

Thoughts?

If only SRAM and some other companies would step up and offer stiffer competition to the "Big 2".

Yep that is what is been the most harmful to the consumer these days is in a lot of markets the big guys keep swallowing up the little guys and even each other, which leads to high prices. Remember the Microsoft case where they had a memo for a product they knew they could charge less for it and still make a profit but since they really had no compition they sold it for almost double.

Why would Shimano do this? Are they doing this to increase the bottom line of their retailers? I don't understand Shimano's motivation - and they have to have a motivation.
It's called Marketing (note the capital M). Their goal is to control the pricing of the product in order to control the perception of the product. In this way, they feel that they can better control the demand for the product. It also allows them to create the perception of "better" products through higher pricing (called Premium Pricing). Corporation do everything for a reason and that reason is to make money. Companies are not immoral-- they are amoral.


If only SRAM and some other companies would step up and offer stiffer competition to the "Big 2".
Why is it "some other" company's responsibility to offer competition? Why is it not our responsibility to stop buying Shimano products? Why is it not our responsibility to stop buying pre-assembled bikes that have Shimano parts? Plenty of companies offer products that are at least as good as if not better than Shimano.

As long as consumers are willing to let someone else make decisions for them, corporations will continue do these kinds of things. The best thing is for us to remain well educated and help others stay educated. Support companies that do good work. If you want smaller companies to stay in business, make that a consideration when you purchase.

Just my two cents (well, it's probably up to a nickel by now). :)

- Jeff

you guys say to try campy, but its even more expensive!

yimminy. I am tired of reckless shimano bashing and people ranting about how good their suntour power-ratchets. fact is, new dura-ace is better then old top of line suntour. It is lighter, faster shifting, more ergonomic. face it, the only reason why power ratchets are selling in their NOS condition is becuase a) old memories b) people have old bikes that they want to restore becuase of a)

now that I'm done with that rant I'll move on to the next one.

Shimano is a manufacturer that is trying to make it by just like every other business. It is their choice whether or not to sell their parts to someone. if they believe that a certain company's prices are unfair, then fine, there is no reason why they should be obligated to sell to them. besides, I think this might help the bike shops, keeping them from getting undercut by others

next thing. Its not price-fixing. shimano is, or has, distributers that sell to these bike shops. price fixing applies to when many companies get together and say, hey lets keep prices high. for instance, if all the bike shops in the world got together and said, "hey, lets sell all of our derailleurs for a 500% markup...hehehehehe...we're really screwing those consumers!! haha" that would be price fixing. This is not what shimano is doing.

ah but campy is undeniably better. the whole reason to get dura ace was because it was the top of the line for the same price as chorus ... though many people (including me) will contend that chorus is actually slightly better than d-a for durability and good behavior.

if dura-ace is getting jacked up to the price of record, there's no way in hell i'm gonna go shimano any more! it just doesn't have the same quality.

It's called Marketing (note the capital M). Their goal is to control the pricing of the product in order to control the perception of the product. In this way, they feel that they can better control the demand for the product. It also allows them to create the perception of "better" products through higher pricing (called Premium Pricing). Corporation do everything for a reason and that reason is to make money. Companies are not immoral-- they are amoral.

Or, is it that Shimano doesn't want its parts sold via mail order or over the Internet. If they set a basement retail price that's relatively high, it will benefit the LBSs who then can compete with the Internet shops. Wouldn't they much rather have their parts sold @ a bike shop that will also service the parts and educate the consumer, etc? I dunno.

Check out this link for a good history of what happened to Suntour. http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~hadland/page35.htm

Hey, much thanks for posting this link! It's good to know the truth about SunTour, rather than just rumors and innuendo...it's really too bad they went down...I still think SunTour's products were far superior to Shimano's products, and now we no longer have a choice...too bad.

Except in this case they are not increasing THIER bottom line. They are controlling the retail price to the end-user. They are telling thier dealers how much profit they make. The dealers pay them the same amount either way, so this does nothing to Shimano's bottom line. This is clearly an attempt to get on-line sellers and the BIG dealers to sell at a higher price. While it may not be illegal, it certainly DOES hurt the end user in the wallet. They make it pointless to shop around to get a better deal. I really hope it backfires on them.

So, not only is Shimano making a killing, but they're also helping the middle man do the same...I say screw 'em, there's a bazillion used bikes out there, used components too, just boycott their sorry asses...in case you havent' heard, you don't really need the latest new components to still have a groovy ride -- retro is cool, too.

It is supposed to be the current currency in most of Europe. Maybe Finland hasn't joined the European Union.

Joining the EU has no effect on national currency. But joining the monetary union changes it to euro. Which is what the current currency in most of Europe is called, not "euro dollar".

--J

LBSs are not well organized and have little stroke with Shimano (or Campy or SRAM or.....), is my guess. But the same is not true of the bicycle manufacturers. You will notice that it is no longer possible to purchase a frameset and build it yourself from such folks as Litespeed. Chris King has done the same thing as Shimano is doing. My money is on the Treks and Litespeeds of this world pressuring Shimano as well as Shimano wanting more control, which in the end nets them more money. They bought up market-share via low prices and a good product and now will dictate their products to that market. It has nothing to do with what is good for the customer (we riders).

My next bike will be as Shimano-free as I can build it, without using Campy either.
SRAM driveset, FSA crankset, Dia-compe Brakes...

Shifters, hmmm, Modolo?

Problem is, my components will probably be obsolete in no time.

Yeah, Sram X.O with their new trigger shifters are in my next line of changes for my 04' BH after the stock parts wear. (rear D', Front D', and shifters).

Shimano can kiss my ass.

:mad:

I'm using a Nashbar nickle plated 8spd cassette in one of my MTBs and it's Shimano compatible,but without the cheap chrome job. Plus it works great with my SRAM PC-68 chain ;) Their housebrand BB is also an improvement over the Shimano BBs like the LP-27 and others.

Shimano's corporate bottom line may be appeasing its shareholders,but I'll continue to seek out quality alternatives. Shimano? Who? :)

Regards.