Road Bike Racing - Geneviève Jeanson off the hook?

So I was just reading this morning that Geneviève Jeanson is off the hook from the high hematocrit level that was found in her blood sample at this year's worlds. A urine sample showed that she didn't take EPO, but isn't the fact that she still has a high hematocrit level??? Why is she off the hook just since she didn't take this particular drug? She messed up with the tent she was sleeping in that, in the end, has the same effect on the body as taking EPO; your body produces more red blood cells.

Personally, I don't think it should be left to the method you use. If you're hematocrit is too high, and you don't have a medical reason it should be that way, you should be punished. Anyone feel the same?

The negative Urine Sample shows She didn't take EPO within 3-4 days of the test.

Well at least on the mens side having a high hematocrit level is deemed "unfit for racing". Look what happened to the UK rider Charlie Wegilius. No evidence of EPO, had a high hematocrit level, and was held out of the Tour of Lombardy by the UCI. What they need to do is come up with a test for EPO and like substances. The way I understand it having a hemorrhoid will raise your level.

the rumour mill in montreal [jeanson's hometown] has long had it that she was doping. it would be a shame if she was forever labelled a suspected doper, if she wasn't. on the other hand, as smoothie points out, the negative doesn't mean that she wasn't doping, only that the test did not find that she was doping...

and yet... and yet... her national teammates [notably lyne bessette] seem to believe she has been doping for a long time... her name has been connected with a doping scandal in the past... her coach has long had a bad reputation in the sport... and her hematocrit was not just above the 47% allowable, it was way above the limit...

as for the tent having the same effect as epo, velo, you're right. but the uci has had to split hairs here. training at altitude has the same effect, and it would not be possible to make that illegal. the distinction the uci makes is between environmental advantages and direct biological intervention.

I think it shouldnt matter whether she tested positive or not. Putting her off the hook would be saying 'its ok to be over 47%. just dont use drugs'. It would be unfair for those who make sure to keep themselves under the limit, to put her off the hook.

training at altitude has the same effect

But can that put you over the limit as her tent has supposedly done?

But can that put you over the limit as her tent has supposedly done?
considering that the tent is supposed to simulate being at altitude, i'd venture to guess yes... but what i wonder is whether either the tent or training at altitude would raise one's hematocrit as high as jeanson's was reported to be...

The tent's accuracy could be off. It has the capability to raise someone's hematocrit levels to one point, and real elevation training could raise it to another.

But, on the other point, she could have definitely been doping if neither the tent nor training at altitude could raise ones levels as high as Jeanson's. I understand what you are saying, velocipedio. And, it could be true, especially will all the rumors in Canada.

it's funny... i like gj. you see her watching the local crits. sometimes you run into her on an early or late-season training ride. i see her father riding in rona colours, on a colnago almost every time i head out on the lakeshore. she sometimes stops for frozen yogurt at a little place a kilometre from my house. in many ways, she's family to montreal cyclists. she's our fair-haired girl, so no one wants to think the unthinkable. but there has been so much smoke sround her for the last couple of years, you can't help but wonder if there's a fire.

LA uses an O2 tent as well. Lots of other folks do. It's legal. I did not see what here level was reported to be. But, she has not tested positive for anything...folks get accused of a lot of stuff without any proof...its kind of sad.

If she is doping, she'll get caught at some point. I'd love to see UCI do random, frequent checks on all the riders in the off season. Let's see how high the old hematocrit will be at that point!

I would think that even if the tests are flawed, they probably do run the tests multiple times. When I worked in a lab and we wanted to get some results from lab tests, we'd re-run them multiple times. You never know if the first one was a fluke or what, and I'm sure they're doing this with her tests, and they're consistently coming back with higher hematocrit levels.

I think there will always be a way for someone to dope, and as long as there are companies looking to make money off drug doping, there will be some kind of doping in every sporting event.

Well, maybe every sporting event but curling...

:D

Koffee

Well, maybe every sporting event but curling...


I bet a lot of curlers use beta blockers, or other drugs with similar effects

Canadian doctor Maurice Duquette, who pleaded guilty on Monday to prescribing EPO to an as-yet-unnamed Quebec female cyclist and her coach, has now denied giving the rider drugs.

According to a report from the Montreal Gazette, the latest development came in a disciplinary hearing at the Quebec College of Physicians and Surgeons (QCPS) on Tuesday. The CPS disciplinary panel was hearing arguments on making the rider's name public; her identity is currently protected by a publication ban. The rider's lawyer, Alain Barrette, said Duquette had presented the letter denying the allegations by hand to his patient on Tuesday. The previous day, Duquette pleaded guilty to 14 charges of administering banned drugs to 11 patients between 1998 and 2001, including three instances involving the rider.

The panel refused to accept the letter as evidence, saying that Duquette's guilty plea stands. Duquette's lawyer, Jean-François Lepage argued that the only issue at hand in the hearing was the publication ban, and not the guilt of his client, while Barrette, representing the rider, said that Duquette's guilty plea could in no way be linked to his client.

Organizations requesting the lifting of the publication ban include Radio-Canada, La Presse, The Montreal Gazette and the Quebec Cycling Federation.

Louis Barbeau, general director of the Quebec Cycling Federation, said the federation wanted the publication ban lifted so it can tackle the particular drug issue. "When you have a doctor who admits he prescribed some of these substances, we need to find out if the allegations are true," he said.

She's called a press conference for today....this should be interesting.

Let us know what happened. Sheesh, I saw her racing (and winning) in Montreal in June... it would be sad if she was doping. :(

Koffee

Sounds like she was doping but is still not admitting it fully:

http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/5254.0.html

www.cyclingnews.com/news/?id=2003/nov03/nov18news1

says she is innocent, and never even seen EPO...

Never seen it? C'mon....

You can get it at any pharmacy in the country, Walgreens even has their prices on their website. Its not some unobtainable mystery substance that has to be smuggled in from Boliva or something. It's use is rampant in Cross Country Skiing, Cycling, almost all endurance sports. There is still no test that will detect it after 3 days of injection. High hematocrit counts can be masked by 20 min on an IV drip.

Need proof the testing doesn't work? Everyone keeps pissing clean, but when the cops raid the hotel, medical waste is flying out the windows like a prison riot. Guys are getting caught with hundreds of vials in their cars, luggage, hotel rooms etc. But they never tested positive.

Almost every division 1 pro team in the peleton has either been caught doping, caught disposing of empty doping packages, or is employing ex doped pro's in management positions. The list of past Tour winners who are finally coming forward to clear their conscience is growing.



Why is this doctor changing his story all of a sudden?

Amd how about this tidbit?


"The publication ban forbidding naming the cyclist was lifted at the request of Jeanson herself, on the condition that she keep the confidentiality of her medical files."

Everyone knew it was her anyways, she looks good in the public eye by coming out and saying it was her name in the report, but continues to deny. And cut a sweet deal by keeping her records confidential.

Slick.

Need proof the testing doesn't work? Everyone keeps pissing clean, but when the cops raid the hotel, medical waste is flying out the windows like a prison riot. Guys are getting caught with hundreds of vials in their cars, luggage, hotel rooms etc. But they never tested positive.
"It's for my dog!"

"It's for my mother-in-law!"

"It's that d@mn chocolate from South America!"

I'm completely jaded about the whole PED issue in pro cycling. As a spectator, and given there's no way to know who's really doing what, what good is it to stress over it? Realistically, what testing actually accomplishes is 1) maintaining some degree of parity in the peloton, and 2) limiting riders self-inflicted physical abuse from PEDs.

I know this is no answer, but I vote for manditory, random, year-round testing of all athletes in an effort to curtail the illegal use of EPO. In addition, there should be random home and office checks for the doctors, the coaches and the homes of the athletes. It probably wouldn't solve the problem, but it sure would make it a lot harder to shoot up the EPO in the off season.

I know Procrit also elevates red blood cell counts. Some hospitals are opting to move to Procrit and decrease the amount of EPO they order. Procrit works very similar to EPO and is cheaper too. They need to start looking for the use of Procrit while they're looking for EPO.

Koffee

"It's for my dog!"

"It's for my mother-in-law!"

"It's that d@mn chocolate from South America!"

I'm completely jaded about the whole PED issue in pro cycling. As a spectator, and given there's no way to know who's really doing what, what good is it to stress over it? Realistically, what testing actually accomplishes is 1) maintaining some degree of parity in the peloton, and 2) limiting riders self-inflicted physical abuse from PEDs.


You forgot about the throat lozenges from the dentist....

You're welcome... :D

I know this is no answer, but I vote for manditory, random, year-round testing of all athletes in an effort to curtail the illegal use of EPO.

This is what the USADA does for its elite athletes. It's a good thing.

This is what the USADA does for its elite athletes. It's a good thing.

And they show up anytime they like...like the time they showed up at Armstrong's house at 6.30am when they were about to leave for the hospital because his wife was in labor.

They just show up at the house, take a sample, you sign papers, but it can be done virtually at anytime they choose.

I know this is no answer, but I vote for manditory, random, year-round testing of all athletes in an effort to curtail the illegal use of EPO. In addition, there should be random home and office checks for the doctors, the coaches and the homes of the athletes. It probably wouldn't solve the problem, but it sure would make it a lot harder to shoot up the EPO in the off season.

I know Procrit also elevates red blood cell counts. Some hospitals are opting to move to Procrit and decrease the amount of EPO they order. Procrit works very similar to EPO and is cheaper too. They need to start looking for the use of Procrit while they're looking for EPO.

Koffee



Actually, Procrit is EPO

Procrit is the brand name for synthetic EPO made by Ortho Biotech
Epogen is the brand name for synthetic EPO made by Amgen
Eprex is the brand name for synthetic EPO made by Johnson & Johnson under license from Amgen for sale overseas.

Total sales of all EPO drugs last year? $6 Billion. The three manufactures are currently in litigation over license rights, and guerilla marketing tactics.

Erythropoietin (EPO) is a growth factor normally produced by the kidney. EPO stimulates the production of red blood cells in the bone marrow. The Current UCI test is only able to detect red blood cells that have been made by the bodies reponse to synthetic EPO within 3 or 4 days.

There is also a product on the market that is closely related to EPO and acts in the same way, but is referred to as an erythropoiesis-stimulating protein. Its name is Aranesp, it is also made by Amgen

Aranesp is now favored due to its longer lasting effects, which means fewer monthly injections, and fewer 3 day 'positive test' windows to worry about.

Not only is EPO readily available to anyone with a prescription, pharmacist friend, sneaky team doctor etc. It's not really that expensive. At least on an enhacement level. If you are suffering from severe anemia, or total renal failure it gets costly, but if you only need a slight increase? I could dope and get a 7-8% increase in my Hematocrit count for less than $200.00 a month.

EPO is cheap, effective, and easily obtained. It is a performance enhancing drug for the masses. Beating the hematocrit tests is as easy as 20min on an IV drip, which would temporarily get you under the 50% mark. Remeber all the artificial hemoglobin found at the Giro?
But this is all old news, and old technology. There are much better, harder to detect drugs. The new generation is much more expensive, which explains why the guys getting caught with EPO in the system are usually riders we've never heard of. They can't afford the undectable stuff.

You may have heard about THG on the news, a 'designer steroid'. Man made specifically to beat the current tests. The only way the doping agencies found out about it is because a track coach who was presumably tired of his athletes losing to others who were on it, sent a sample to the Anti-doping agency.

Even drugs they know about are abused freely due to no accurate test. As of today there is still no test to detect abuse of Human Growth Hormone. None! It helps you get faster, stronger, slow down the aging process, hell the stuff even helps some people see better. No lie! It strengthens all the muscles in your body, including the ones around the eye.

The 1996 olympic games in Atlanta were called "The Growth Hormone Games" by the athletes themselves. There was no test for it then, nor in Sydney in 2000, and I read today that there will be no test in place for Athens 2004. (I would not be surprised if the last bit is dis-information in hopes of trying to catch the cheats). HgH aids and speeds muscle recovery. It allows athletes to train and race harder day after day after day. This may be the 3rd Olympics where everyone knows that they can cheat and not get caught. This may also be the 8th or so Tour De France where everyone knows they can cheat and in no way get caught.


There are drugs which are still in clinical trials and not set to be released until 2007, yet somehow they are already found in the peleton, there is no test, because the UCI doesn't know the drug exists until someone goofs up and leaves an empty vial in a hotel room.

Actovegin is on the UCI banned list after US Postal got caught throwing empty packages away. I know Lance dismisses this in his book, and even says he never heard of it. But here is some more information. The team doctor cleared it with French customs and the medical board before bringing it in the country. Team officials claimed it was for skin abrasions and a staff member who is diabetic. It IS used to treat skin ulcers on diabetic patients and speeds healing by allowing the tissues to take up more oxygen. However, one uses a 5% actovegin cream for this, not the several IV bags found. Lance does say that it wasn't a banned substance, it wasn't. Until the UCI found it. Now it is.

The latest weapon of choice is Repoxygen, still in clinical trials, but already rumored to be in the peleton. It is undetectable, and works by raising the bodies production of natural EPO. This renders the current EPO test useless. Take a little repoxygen, and a little Hgh and you will be superman, and they won't catch you. And even if you do get caught with the stuff in your luggage, You get a year off, and then someone else will pick you back up next season.

Would they cheat?

Take these olympic athletes, like the guys who do the shot put, and the power lifters. There is no huge payday for them down the road, no million dollar contracts, no shoe endorsments, yet they are getting caught doping. Risking their lives and reputation simply for the thrill of victory. Now imagine a pro cyclist, with a wife and three kids, no formal education and his income depends on nothing but his athletic performance and his ability to suffer. He grew up racing bicycles in a doped peleton, his Director Sportif grew up racing bicycles in a doped peleton and his Director Sportif grew up racing bicycles in a doped peleton. and so on.....

Pedro Delgado had the nickname 'testo' for his fondness of testasterone, he tested positive for probenicide (used to mask the testasterone, banned by the Olympic Committee, but not the UCI, yet)the year he won the tour. His superdomestique that year, and several years afterwards was Miguel Indurain. 1996 TdF winner Bjarne Riis reportedly tested @ 58.3% Hematocrit in a blood test the day after he trounced Indurain at Hautacam. He has since reversed his staunch anti doping stance, and now admits to its presence and history. Riis' super domestique/understudy during his win? none other than Jan Ullrich. And Riis is now the director sportif at CSC.

When you think of all the pro cyclists who are willing to take banned substances which CAN be detected, and either rely on counter measures, or simply hope for the best. Imagine how many are on Hgh and other stuff that can't be detected.

But you know what? despite all this...... I am still a die hard fan. Because regardless of their medical preperation, the riders still suffer for one another, sacrifice personal glory for the good of the team. Push themselves beyond even what they think is possible. Acting out an amazing drama on a lifesize stage through all the best and worst that mother nature has to offer. Despite the doping, it is still the sport of kings!

Wow, smoothie, thanks for the info. It was very informative. So much so I wish I had access to these drugs!!!!!!!

OK, just kidding. :rolleyes:

Actually, Procrit is EPO

Procrit is the brand name for synthetic EPO made by Ortho Biotech
Epogen is the brand name for synthetic EPO made by Amgen
Eprex is the brand name for synthetic EPO made by Johnson & Johnson under license from Amgen for sale overseas.

Total sales of all EPO drugs last year? $6 Billion. The three manufactures are currently in litigation over license rights, and guerilla marketing tactics.

Erythropoietin (EPO) is a growth factor normally produced by the kidney. EPO stimulates the production of red blood cells in the bone marrow. The Current UCI test is only able to detect red blood cells that have been made by the bodies reponse to synthetic EPO within 3 or 4 days.

There is also a product on the market that is closely related to EPO and acts in the same way, but is referred to as an erythropoiesis-stimulating protein. Its name is Aranesp, it is also made by Amgen

Aranesp is now favored due to its longer lasting effects, which means fewer monthly injections, and fewer 3 day 'positive test' windows to worry about.

Not only is EPO readily available to anyone with a prescription, pharmacist friend, sneaky team doctor etc. It's not really that expensive. At least on an enhacement level. If you are suffering from severe anemia, or total renal failure it gets costly, but if you only need a slight increase? I could dope and get a 7-8% increase in my Hematocrit count for less than $200.00 a month.

EPO is cheap, effective, and easily obtained. It is a performance enhancing drug for the masses. Beating the hematocrit tests is as easy as 20min on an IV drip, which would temporarily get you under the 50% mark. Remeber all the artificial hemoglobin found at the Giro?
But this is all old news, and old technology. There are much better, harder to detect drugs. The new generation is much more expensive, which explains why the guys getting caught with EPO in the system are usually riders we've never heard of. They can't afford the undectable stuff.

You may have heard about THG on the news, a 'designer steroid'. Man made specifically to beat the current tests. The only way the doping agencies found out about it is because a track coach who was presumably tired of his athletes losing to others who were on it, sent a sample to the Anti-doping agency.

Even drugs they know about are abused freely due to no accurate test. As of today there is still no test to detect abuse of Human Growth Hormone. None! It helps you get faster, stronger, slow down the aging process, hell the stuff even helps some people see better. No lie! It strengthens all the muscles in your body, including the ones around the eye.

The 1996 olympic games in Atlanta were called "The Growth Hormone Games" by the athletes themselves. There was no test for it then, nor in Sydney in 2000, and I read today that there will be no test in place for Athens 2004. (I would not be surprised if the last bit is dis-information in hopes of trying to catch the cheats). HgH aids and speeds muscle recovery. It allows athletes to train and race harder day after day after day. This may be the 3rd Olympics where everyone knows that they can cheat and not get caught. This may also be the 8th or so Tour De France where everyone knows they can cheat and in no way get caught.


There are drugs which are still in clinical trials and not set to be released until 2007, yet somehow they are already found in the peleton, there is no test, because the UCI doesn't know the drug exists until someone goofs up and leaves an empty vial in a hotel room.

Actovegin is on the UCI banned list after US Postal got caught throwing empty packages away. I know Lance dismisses this in his book, and even says he never heard of it. But here is some more information. The team doctor cleared it with French customs and the medical board before bringing it in the country. Team officials claimed it was for skin abrasions and a staff member who is diabetic. It IS used to treat skin ulcers on diabetic patients and speeds healing by allowing the tissues to take up more oxygen. However, one uses a 5% actovegin cream for this, not the several IV bags found. Lance does say that it wasn't a banned substance, it wasn't. Until the UCI found it. Now it is.

The latest weapon of choice is Repoxygen, still in clinical trials, but already rumored to be in the peleton. It is undetectable, and works by raising the bodies production of natural EPO. This renders the current EPO test useless. Take a little repoxygen, and a little Hgh and you will be superman, and they won't catch you. And even if you do get caught with the stuff in your luggage, You get a year off, and then someone else will pick you back up next season.

Would they cheat?

Take these olympic athletes, like the guys who do the shot put, and the power lifters. There is no huge payday for them down the road, no million dollar contracts, no shoe endorsments, yet they are getting caught doping. Risking their lives and reputation simply for the thrill of victory. Now imagine a pro cyclist, with a wife and three kids, no formal education and his income depends on nothing but his athletic performance and his ability to suffer. He grew up racing bicycles in a doped peleton, his Director Sportif grew up racing bicycles in a doped peleton and his Director Sportif grew up racing bicycles in a doped peleton. and so on.....

Pedro Delgado had the nickname 'testo' for his fondness of testasterone, he tested positive for probenicide (used to mask the testasterone, banned by the Olympic Committee, but not the UCI, yet)the year he won the tour. His superdomestique that year, and several years afterwards was Miguel Indurain. 1996 TdF winner Bjarne Riis reportedly tested @ 58.3% Hematocrit in a blood test the day after he trounced Indurain at Hautacam. He has since reversed his staunch anti doping stance, and now admits to its presence and history. Riis' super domestique/understudy during his win? none other than Jan Ullrich. And Riis is now the director sportif at CSC.

When you think of all the pro cyclists who are willing to take banned substances which CAN be detected, and either rely on counter measures, or simply hope for the best. Imagine how many are on Hgh and other stuff that can't be detected.

But you know what? despite all this...... I am still a die hard fan. Because regardless of their medical preperation, the riders still suffer for one another, sacrifice personal glory for the good of the team. Push themselves beyond even what they think is possible. Acting out an amazing drama on a lifesize stage through all the best and worst that mother nature has to offer. Despite the doping, it is still the sport of kings!


I meant to clarify. In the medical field I worked in, EPO was always short for Epogen, made by Amgen. When it came time to order more of it, we'd call our pharmaceutical representatives and ask for more EPO. They never sent Procrit- they knew better. They sent Epogen.

Procrit and Epogen basically do the same thing- stimulate red blood cell production. It mimicks erythropoietin, the hormone found naturally in the blood used to synthesize production of red blood cells.

Koffee

Wow Smoothie.... that post just blew my mind. Great information. You really seem to be in the know on the drug and supplement area.

Any recommendations on supplements for a non-racing rider who wants to get into great shape and lose a lot of weight, without any harmful long lasting side effects? I've been riding for about a year and 8 months now (about 100 mi/wk average, but sometimes as many as 200 or 225), but I've only lost about 30 lbs. Or is a good diet and riding as much as possible the best course of action?


Thanks for the info, and great post.

One more thing- Procrit is a bit cheaper than Epogen, but I'll guarantee you, Epogen is NOT cheap by any means. I had a heart attack every time we had to order Epo for our clientele- 10 units was about $10,000 and we used one unit per patient per day. That meant we were ordering a heck of a lot of Epo.

Anyone using Epo (not Procrit) is being heavily fiananced by someone with serious money. You need to take the entire unit to get the full effects, and you need to take it on a fairly regular basis, so if they really want to investigate the athlete suspected of taking Epo, you just need to follow the money trail. There's no way anyone would give Epo away for free- it's simply too much money wasted and every ml needs to be accounted for. Someone is paying for it, maybe using a dead person's SSN or something like that, and the athlete is getting away with it. Even if you were to half the vial, you're still paying for $500 per hit. That's real money and not to be overlooked by any means.

Everyone knows the reason why Amgen produced this Aranesp stuff is because their patent is about to run out, which means it can be made by generic pharmaceutical companies, which eats severely into their bottom line. The last time I had to deal with Amgen, they'd come around to my offices and they were trying to convince me to switch over to Aranesp and drop the Epo. Fat chance of that. We're waiting for the patent to expire so we could get out of that ridiculous situation Amgen's set up so that we're not forced to buy exclusively from them anymore. It's a pain in the butt big time, that stupid contract you have to sign with Amgen and the pharmaceutical brokers "anointed" by Amgen to sell their Epo.

Koffee

Wow Smoothie.... that post just blew my mind. Great information. You really seem to be in the know on the drug and supplement area.

Any recommendations on supplements for a non-racing rider who wants to get into great shape and lose a lot of weight, without any harmful long lasting side effects? I've been riding for about a year and 8 months now (about 100 mi/wk average, but sometimes as many as 200 or 225), but I've only lost about 30 lbs. Or is a good diet and riding as much as possible the best course of action?


Thanks for the info, and great post.



How 'bout some short term side effects? Just kidding.

Almost all over the counter weight loss supplements are marketing fluff. The diet industry is a 15 billion dollar a year industry, and we are still the fattest country in the world, and getting fatter.

You are riding the bike at least 100 miles a week, which is great, If you find that you can't fit anymore time in, raise the intensity of your workouts a bit, this will help burn a few more calories.

There are tons of Fad diets out there, no carbs, no meat, no fats, all meat, all beer etc. But if you want to lose weight, its simple math. You just have to burn more calories every day than what you shovel in. Now I'm not saying you have to get a scale, or some of those points cards with the color coding. You just have to be disciplined. And keep riding the bike.

If you were looking to model on the cover of Men's Health or Muscle Magazine then you would need to get very specific about your diet.
If you simply want to lose some weight You can eat whatever you want, just eat less than you are eating now. but you have to cut out the Coke/Pepsi Products (I said simple, not easy LOL)

You will have to get used to smaller portions, and you will on occasion go to bed hungry. When you get up you will have to resist the urge to eat everything in sight. Eat about 2/3 to 3/4 of what you usually do, If your a 3 egg omelet guy make it a 2. Don't fill the cereal bowl up as high etc. Same goes for lunch and dinner. Cut the soda out, drink water. Realize that a lot of "juice" drinks have the same caloric content and high fructose corn syrup as soda.

You might get cranky and short tempered, but eventually you will feel better. The important thing is not to relapse and go back to your old ways. You will go out and have a few beers one night, and completely wig out and order 100 hot wings. I've been there.

In a nutshell, Keep riding, more miles if you have the time, a little harder if you don't. and make a conscious effort to eat a little less than normal at every meal.

But you can't cut too much, becuase then you start to lose strength.
If you over do it, you will know. It happened to me at the gym a few months ago, I just sat on the rowing machine with my head on my knees. It was hard to find the strength to climb the stairs to the exit.

One more thing- Procrit is a bit cheaper than Epogen, but I'll guarantee you, Epogen is NOT cheap by any means. I had a heart attack every time we had to order Epo for our clientele- 10 units was about $10,000 and we used one unit per patient per day. That meant we were ordering a heck of a lot of Epo.

Anyone using Epo (not Procrit) is being heavily fiananced by someone with serious money. You need to take the entire unit to get the full effects, and you need to take it on a fairly regular basis, so if they really want to investigate the athlete suspected of taking Epo, you just need to follow the money trail. There's no way anyone would give Epo away for free- it's simply too much money wasted and every ml needs to be accounted for. Someone is paying for it, maybe using a dead person's SSN or something like that, and the athlete is getting away with it. Even if you were to half the vial, you're still paying for $500 per hit. That's real money and not to be overlooked by any means.

Everyone knows the reason why Amgen produced this Aranesp stuff is because their patent is about to run out, which means it can be made by generic pharmaceutical companies, which eats severely into their bottom line. The last time I had to deal with Amgen, they'd come around to my offices and they were trying to convince me to switch over to Aranesp and drop the Epo. Fat chance of that. We're waiting for the patent to expire so we could get out of that ridiculous situation Amgen's set up so that we're not forced to buy exclusively from them anymore. It's a pain in the butt big time, that stupid contract you have to sign with Amgen and the pharmaceutical brokers "anointed" by Amgen to sell their Epo.

Koffee



Koffee,

Not to pick a fight, or to question your credentials, but you either work with some very, very, sick people, or someone signed an unbelieveably bad contract with your drug rep. Are we talking about the same drug?

Epogen, Procrit, Eprex are all just different brand names for Epoetin Alfa

Amgen holds the license to the drug, and markets Epogen to dialysis patients, while Johnson and Johnson subsidiary Ortho Biotech manufactures and markets Procrit to cancer patients, with Amgens permission. Its the same drug.

Despite the fact that Amgen owns the licensing rights, J&J makes almost twice as much money selling Procrit. The two companies have been hurling lawsuits at each other over the terms of their 1985 licensing agreement. The most recent being Amgen suing J&J for advertising Procrit to dialysis patients. A market that Amgen is supposed to have exclusive rights to. But the fact that the consumer is beind swindled is a topic for another day, back to the issue at hand....

Average cost of synthetic EPO for Kidney Dialysis patients is about $8000 a year, and the Average cost for Synthetic EPO for Cancer patients is about $36,000 a year.

Recommended dosages for patients with severe anemia is SC injections of 50-100 units per kg. of body weight 3 times a week. But no one in the peleton is severly anemic. Lets use me as an example:

I weigh 87kg. I don't need to raise my hematocrit from 10-20% to 37.5% where insurance stops paying, I just need to get from 41% to 48% to stay under the 50% mandated by the UCI

I need roughly 30 units per kg of body weight 3 times a week for about 6 weeks. 30x87=2610 units x 18 injections = 47,000 units. If I'm forced to pay retail prices at Walgreens Pharmacy, 50,000 units is going to cost me $730.08 Divided by 6 weeks equals $121.67 a week.

Once I get to my hematocrit up to 48%, I can drop my 7800 units a week back about 25% and take a 5,000 unit maintenence dose once a week. My 20,000 unit monthly supply costs $279.98 retail. Actually I would have to buy (2) 10,000 vials for 139.99 each, because I can only keep an opened vial in the refrigerator for 21 days.



NOTE: the above author is not a doping pro cyclist, nor a pro cyclist, nor a doping amateur cyclist. He is at best a dope, and a liar...about his weight. 87kg? OK, I Admit, its about 92kg. But hey. I was 105kg before I got back on the bike.

We use Epogen for our dialysis patients at the dialysis center my sister and I own out here in Chicago.

I'm not sure what you're using your Epogen for, but that's what we use our Epogen for. I'm not sure what they pay now, as I decided to back out of the business side of dialysis and just collect the bucks I've earned after slaving away to get the company off the ground for the last 7 years.

I'm not about to get into a peeing match with you, so let's just agree to disagree and assume that the uses we've seen Epo for have been for different medical settings and different needs. End of discussion (for me, at least. Yap away on the topic if you'd care to continue).

Have a nice evening.

Koffee

:rolleyes:

As a research scientist in the pharmaceutical industry, I can say that smoothie104 is correct about Epogen/Procrit. It's very common for the same drug to have different names and very different prices depending on the indication. The company I work for makes a particular drug that sells for about $3 a pill for certain indications. We license it to another company to sell for another indication, they call it something else and sell it for $10 a pill.
On a different note, does anyone find it a little ironic that Amgen has their own cycling club and team? http://www.amgencycling.org/?dsp=Club_Info
Also

Yeah, I saw that a while back and found it quite funny, I seem to remember a page on thiei site that had instructions and suggestions on how to deal with people asking/talking about Epogen abuse. Couldn't find it this time around.

As a research scientist in the pharmaceutical industry, I can say that smoothie104 is correct about Epogen/Procrit. It's very common for the same drug to have different names and very different prices depending on the indication. The company I work for makes a particular drug that sells for about $3 a pill for certain indications. We license it to another company to sell for another indication, they call it something else and sell it for $10 a pill.
On a different note, does anyone find it a little ironic that Amgen has their own cycling club and team? http://www.amgencycling.org/?dsp=Club_Info
Also

I'm not saying that Epogen and Procrit do different things- did you read my response and my subsequent clarification? It's in there. What I did say is that we call Epogen EPO, and that's why I called it EPO and didn't call Procrit EPO. By the way, dialysis is not allowed to use Procrit to treat their patients. Some centers do and before I quit, one got busted for using it. The last I heard, medicare will not reimburse a dialysis center for Procrit. When we first heard of Procrit, we considered using it for our patients, but after we got the official word from Medicare, it became a non-issue. Too bad, because Procrit (for us in the dialysis world) is much cheaper than Epogen.

Perhaps we got a different deal. Perhaps dialysis charges differently. We pay for vials and pay per unit. Perhaps there's something going on in different medical settings that don't apply to how much we use or why we use it.

If you sell Epogen, drop me a line. We could use a break on the prices. Send me a PM.

This discussion is getting ridiculous, as it is taking away from the original thread. Anymore discussion about price or which is the more accurate statement about medicare, drop me a pm and we can discuss privately. I'll return it back to the original topic and end by saying that I think Genevieve could be doping, especially if it's not detected in the urine within 3 days of taking the drug. Having said that, I reiterate the need for manditory, unscheduled drop ins on all parties involved with the athletes. For the athlete, it should involve urine testing, but it also should involve a search of their houses. For the doctors, coaches, and training facilities, it should involve a search of the premises and allow the athlete's medical records to be searched. As long as that athlete is competing, they basically should be allowed to have their privacy violated in terms of their medical records, since doping is so widespread. Unfortunately, it gets to be an expensive process to tracking athletes who dope. :(

Koffee

For the athlete, it should involve urine testing, but it also should involve a search of their houses. For the doctors, coaches, and training facilities, it should involve a search of the premises and allow the athlete's medical records to be searched. As long as that athlete is competing, they basically should be allowed to have their privacy violated in terms of their medical records, since doping is so widespread.

you're advocating the loss of all constitutional search-and-seizure rights, including losing the right to keep medical data private for all competitive athletes? even if it were just for the top 3% of the pro ranks, that's WAY too aggressive in my opinion.

It's not like I'm saying search, seize and release all information on a billboard. Plus, I think it's more than 3% of the top pros are doing it. I'm thinking the problem is a lot worse than what we know, and that's why it's so difficult to determine what to do or how to police it.

Yeah, it's aggressive. But maybe if it is, athletes would be too scared to dope up.

Koffee

you're advocating the loss of all constitutional search-and-seizure rights, including losing the right to keep medical data private for all competitive athletes? even if it were just for the top 3% of the pro ranks, that's WAY too aggressive in my opinion.

Alex,
It only becomes a constitutional rights issue if the government doing the testing. There is nothing stopping a private organisation from setting whatever rules they wish, as long as there is no discrimination based on race, religion, gender, etc. If you hold a job, your employer could decide to pee test all their employees for drugs on random days. As long as they test all the employees so their is no hint of bias, they have not violated your rights. If they release testing data identifying you, then you may have a complaint, but that depends on what paperwork you signed when you were employed. And that is where the athletic governing body falls. You sign authorization when you join a sanctioned team, and they are not considered in violation of your rights.


Peace,
Bill

Unnamed Italian pro claims widespread doping
An Italian professional cyclist, speaking anonymously on the television program "Striscia la Notizia", has created a stir by indulging viewers in his confessions that doping is rampant in the professional peloton and that he himself relied on performance enhancing drugs. Said only to be an active racer and "very well known", the cyclist offered the statement that "90% of the riders are doping".

"If I hadn't been doping I could never have finished races or kept pace," he said. At the same time, the interviewee insisted that doping was causing serious health problems in the peloton.

"I've found a lot of young riders who are reacting badly to the drugs," he said. "They have trouble sleeping, suffer from respiratory problems, heart problems, and that sort of thing. That also concerns riders who every morning receive injections of EPO or growth hormone in their abdomens. With any other treatment they wouldn't have been able to ride the next day."

The damaging statements didn't stop there. Shifting his accusations to race organisers, the cyclist alluded to lax controls at major races and a certain complicity with cyclists known to be doping.

"One time I was called for testing and I went to the medical control," he explained. "But they said to me, 'go ahead, the doping didn't happen.' And this was a very important international race."

"Everyone is afraid to speak out because we're in a world that's hard to escape," he said, explaining the decision to conceal his identity. "If you talk, if people know that it's you, you're excluded from the system. The majority of the riders in the peloton didn't finish school and wouldn't know what to do besides ride a bicycle."

Cipollini named
Following the Striscia la Notizia program, a satirical news show, the Italian website dagostia.com reported that the masked rider was in fact Mario Cipollini. That same day, Cipollini promptly denied having said anything to Striscia la Notizia.

"Regarding the news about me making these declarations to Striscia la notizia, I want to say- and this has already been explained by the press office of Striscia la Notizia- that these comments [from the website Dagostia] have no basis in fact," Cipollini said, quoted on Datasport.

"I'm really surprised, and very bitter, to have to come out and explain these absurd lies that are being thrown around," he continued. "I spoke with my lawyer and I am going to sue whoever is responsible for these accusations."

Subsequent to the first rider, another cyclist appeared on Channel 5, speaking to Striscia la notizia about his early years in the pro ranks. "I started to race when I was eight years old," the younger rider explained. "The first year I was a professional I had to really face what was going in the sport with the usage of GH [growth hormone], EPO, cortisone, caffeine and steroids. I decided not to take any drugs, and I finally I had to quit the sport.

"Personally I did two years without getting any results as a pro, so in the third year without any results there was nothing left to do," he added. "The logic in this situation is that the team had to see the investment they made in me as a rider pay off somehow. I had to deal with doping after I saw the team doctor. I had normal haematocrit values in my blood; actually, too low with respect to my teammates. The team doctor gave me a list of medicine I had to take, and when I came out of that visit I ripped the list up and decided to retire from cycling."

By not revealing the sources of these accusations, the at times sensationalist Italian media may be repeating their actions of last spring when hidden camera footage was broadcast of riders supposedly taking drugs. Some viewers of this week's program may wonder whether the rider making the allegations is Striscia la Notizia's Gabbibo and not former world champion Mario Cipollini.

about that last post...

it would have been neat if the unnamed rider went into detail as to what was used, when it was used, and what it was used for. It could really seem factual if they went into detail about the need of taking certain drugs and what they did for recovery or performance. Like, 'the riders wouldnt be able to finish a grand tour without *whatever*.'

It only becomes a constitutional rights issue if the government doing the testing. There is nothing stopping a private organisation from setting whatever rules they wish, as long as there is no discrimination based on race, religion, gender, etc.

US laws protect my right to keep my medical records private from the company I work for, even if they're paying for my insurance. Similar rights should protect athletes medical records.

Additionally, look at who would be doing the testing. USA Cycling manages pretty much all the olympic, amateur and pro cycling in the US. They are the "National Governing Body" for cycling, sanctioned by the US Olympic Comittee, which in turn gets their mandate from an Act of Congress.

http://www.striscialanotizia.it/




http://www.striscialanotizia.it/gabibbo.htm



WTF?



Smoothie104

Unnamed Italian pro claims widespread doping
Is Pantani still "an active racer?"

Following the high-profile flap caused by a supposed professional rider's confessions of doping on Italy's Striscia la Notizia television program, Italian website Dagospia has withdrawn its own article announcing that the disguised rider featured on the program was in fact Mario Cipollini. The former world champion Cipollini reacted quickly with outrage at being named by Dagospia, saying he had never spoken to Striscia la Notizia and the information was not grounded in any fact.

"We were given the information [concerning the rider's identity] by an authoritative source who had personally validated facts," said Dagospia's director Roberto D'Agostino. "In spite of that, we've taken action based on Cipollini's firm denial and we thought it best to remove the article from the site."

Is Pantani still "an active racer?"



I heard he gained like 40lbs (18kg), don't know if its true, but If so, I be he looks a lot like George Costanza