Regional forums [Archive] - Page 2

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East Hill

03-22-08, 08:48 PM

No, I don't forget any such thing. This is not my family nor do I view it as such. I've made friends on here, but anonymous members on a website are just that - anonymous.

Do you not see yourself as belonging to the BikeForums community?

East Hill

merider1

03-22-08, 08:49 PM

I'm not unhappy, Soleg, but I'm not understanding this one member's gripe. I spend most of my time in So Cal (my absolute right to do so), and it drives me to drinking when someone suggests that only certain topics should be discussed over in the Regional Forums.

Why can't folks just leave So Cal alone if they don't like it? There have been other gripes (mostly from those in So Cal who feel the community is a "clique") Bottom line, we're just a bunch of adults from all over southern California who ride together and many of us have become friends. So, naturally, we talk about all things cyling or otherwise. Why that's threatening to someone is beyond me.

chipcom

03-22-08, 08:53 PM

The regional forum members shouldn't be put in a position to think of the feelings and needs of every member on Bike Forums, Gary, and suggesting as such is just silly and some chip you've got on your shoulder.

Gary is a bit small to be carrying me on his shoulder, ME. But he really is a nice guy and just trying to find a way for good subjects to be found easier, especially when they are tucked away into a regional forum where some (unlike me, the fool who shows up everywhere), wouldn't normally go. Lighten up, girlfriend, like someone mentioned earlier, it's a software problem - it can be handled without ruining the regional forums. ;)

Now c'mere and give Chippy a hug, and I'll be sure to pass it along to Gary next time I see him. :D

merider1

03-22-08, 08:53 PM

Do you not see yourself as belonging to the BikeForums community?

East Hill

Community in a broader sense, yes. But not in the true sense of the word (in my mind and in my opinion). Anyone can come on here and you have all types, some of whom are here using the cyber shield to be rude to others and seek their own thrill just by being anonymous. Then there are niche communities where folks actually meet and get to know one another. That is So Cal and now, No Cal as well as they have built up their community too. We actually are far more civil over in So Cal since most of us have met and it's harder to be nasty when you've actually met someone. It's not across the board, certainly, but for the most part that is the case.

That is a true community to me. I feel no onus whatsoever to anonymous members on here. I try to be respectful and kind to all members, but I don't view them as a community in the true sense of the word.

merider1

03-22-08, 08:57 PM

Gary is a bit small to be carrying me on his shoulder, ME. But he really is a nice guy and just trying to find a way for good subjects to be found easier, especially when they are tucked away into a regional forum where some (unlike me, the fool who shows up everywhere), wouldn't normally go. Lighten up, girlfriend, like someone mentioned earlier, it's a software problem - it can be handled without ruining the regional forums. ;)

Now c'mere and give Chippy a hug, and I'll be sure to pass it along to Gary next time I see him. :D

Chippy, I :love: you and would love to hug you. ;)

But, I'm sorry, here is where I'm going to be disagreeable. Gary has plenty of info at his fingertips in Road Cycling. He also knows how to use the search function to find any subject he pleases. The info is available to him and not "tucked" away. We in So Cal shouldn't be forced to have to ensure all of our threads are put in Road Cycling. If So Cal was closed to the Road Cycling members, then one could argue for this, but as it stands, ANYONE can come into the Regional Forums at any time.

East Hill

03-22-08, 09:12 PM

Community in a broader sense, yes. But not in the true sense of the word (in my mind and in my opinion). Anyone can come on here and you have all types, some of whom are here using the cyber shield to be rude to others and seek their own thrill just by being anonymous. Then there are niche communities where folks actually meet and get to know one another. That is So Cal and now, No Cal as well as they have built up their community too. We actually are far more civil over in So Cal since most of us have met and it's harder to be nasty when you've actually met someone. It's not across the board, certainly, but for the most part that is the case.

That is a true community to me. I feel no onus whatsoever to anonymous members on here. I try to be respectful and kind to all members, but I don't view them as a community in the true sense of the word.

I have met many members in person. I have also communicated with far more members via PM and e-mail. I would hate to think that the members who have not met me in person don't view me as a friend, and part of the cycling community, simply because I am 'anonymous'.

Most of us in C & V have never met--but we are always looking for ways to better the community as a whole.

East Hill

SweetLou

03-22-08, 09:19 PM

And here is my thinking:

1. We had this discussion last year in a public thread to the Mods, and the owner of Bike forums at the time, Joe, decided to leave the regional forums alone. He saw the value in the connections being made and the community as a whole.
2. We have, in fact, formed a community in which many of us ride together, know one another and trust one another's advice. Many of us are friends.
Sounds great, just what a regional forums should do.

3. Sorry, but I don't care if the Road Forum guys are too lazy to come check So Cal out. In lieu of whining about it, why don't you foster your own regional forum, invite people on rides, make "human" contact (not only of the cyber kind) and then YOU will understand our experience and why someone like me is protective of our little corner and the folks who choose to come in there and participate.What are you protecting? No one that I know said to get rid of the regional forums. I haven't seen anyone whining about how close SoCal is. But why should Roadies that are not from SoCal go to SoCal? It's not laziness, they aren't SoCalians (SoCalers?)

4. So Cal is NOT locked or "secret" (I don't hear you complaining about the Women's Forum? Gee, what? you don't want all that info spread all over the Road Forum to benefit all you men?). You and any other member on here can do a search, find any thread you wish to benefit from and you are not barred from coming into So Cal. Nor are you not allowed to come join us on rides (which several folks from different states and regions have done). We are not exclusive to any member.I don't understand the Women's forum either. But if the Women's forum deals with issues only for women, then it is fine. Just like if regional forums should only deal with things about that region. I do search for threads when I am looking for a particular subject and will go anywhere that information may be. But, searching for information and browsing a forum to learn and to give advice is different. Most of the time I am on BF, I am not in need for information about a particular subject, I just want to learn in general or to offer help.

So, how about you quit your whining? As I pointed out in our "banter" the other day, very well I believe, there are over 26 threads in Road Cycling about Garmins. And personally, I don't care if the one thread in So Cal isn't put right in front of your nose or others over in the Road Cycling Forum. And, as I pointed out very well I believe, I don't WANT to come into Road Cycling and garner advice from a bunch of anonymous posters who are rude to one another and on and off the same subjects over and over again.
But wouldn't I be doing the same thing if I go into SoCal's forum? Wouldn't I be getting advice from anonymous posters who I don't know with their inside jokes and such?

The regional forum members shouldn't be put in a position to think of the feelings and needs of every member on Bike Forums, Gary, and suggesting as such is just silly and some chip you've got on your shoulder.
Sure they should. Just like any member of any society should think about the feeling and needs of everyone else. That is why we have some rules. That is not saying you shouldn't disagree with someone, but that it should be done in a respectful manner.

But, I haven't seen any chip on anyone's shoulder about regional forums. It's about the exchange of information. As with any type of information, especially if it is a large amount, organization is helpful. This is even more so when the information is diverse in subject matter.

Could you imagine a reference book that is done in this manner? A book that is not set up logically so that information could be found easily would not be considered by most as a good reference book.

To have any information you want to post in a regional forum, destroys the regional forum. It will become a mini Bike Forum. A mini Bike Forum that just so happens to be called "Great Lakes" or "SoCal", it mights as well be called "Julie's Forum". Instead of one Bike Forum that is logically organized by subject, we would have many small bike forums that are not logically divided, making information harder to find and share.

merider1

03-22-08, 09:52 PM

What are you protecting? No one that I know said to get rid of the regional forums. I haven't seen anyone whining about how close SoCal is. But why should Roadies that are not from SoCal go to SoCal? It's not laziness, they aren't SoCalians (SoCalers?)

Actually, SweetLou, just becasue YOU haven't seen it, doesn't mean other members haven't whined and complained (maybe not like Garysol did with a thread in here, but trust me, they have in other posts). We've had more than one thread where people who feel left out, complain about So Cal. And it has been repeated that no thread or ride is closed to any member of Bike Forums. As for Roadies going to So Cal, they can choose to or not. Just as I can choose to go outside of So Cal or not. But the two don't need to be blended for any greater benefit of the forums. Perfect example is the Garmin thread. Roadies who want info on Garmins can do a search of all of Bike Forums and visit any thread they want. Threads come and go all the time, so the search function is necessary to find threads no longer at the top of any boards. Therefore, in any members search, he/she can find all the info they want from past threads in any forum, including the regional forums.

Just like if regional forums should only deal with things about that region. I do search for threads when I am looking for a particular subject and will go anywhere that information may be. But, searching for information and browsing a forum to learn and to give advice is different. Most of the time I am on BF, I am not in need for information about a particular subject, I just want to learn in general or to offer help.

This is the argument that gets me frothing at the mouth. Why do you think YOU have the right to say what the regional members should discuss? I don't complain to the mods and say that the Roadies should only discuss what is about Road cycling (i.e. no racing threads, threads about bike bling, etc. - I mean, if we're going to split hairs here...???) Naturally, when posting in the regional forums, ALL topics come up and suggesting that those members there only talk about their regions is called "censorship." Do you really want to go there?

But wouldn't I be doing the same thing if I go into SoCal's forum? Wouldn't I be getting advice from anonymous posters who I don't know with their inside jokes and such?

That's your choice. Just as it is mine, and as I said, I do not want to go to Road Cycling for anonymous advice, nor should I have to. That isn't a rule in the Forum Guidelines..."members MUST go into all forums to get/give advice and offer info." :rolleyes:

Sure they should. Just like any member of any society should think about the feeling and needs of everyone else. That is why we have some rules. That is not saying you shouldn't disagree with someone, but that it should be done in a respectful manner.

I fundamentally disagree with this and think it twisted thinking. Again, no rule or requirement of membership states that we, as members of bike forums, have to consider the feelings and needs of everyone on here. I can't please everyone and I'm not the least bit interested in doing so. I think most folks (normal folks) don't expect that of all members. I know I don't. There are things I don't agree with, but I don't go complaining that my feelings should go above others. There's a give and take on ANY public website and an understanding that other than common respect, none of us owe anyone else anything.

But, I haven't seen any chip on anyone's shoulder about regional forums. It's about the exchange of information. As with any type of information, especially if it is a large amount, organization is helpful. This is even more so when the information is diverse in subject matter.

I repeat, just because YOU haven't seen it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. And I do view Gary's exchange in So Cal and complaint here as a chip on his shoulder and I've explained why. And as for that Garmin thread that he so wanted in Road Cycling, go find it in the Road Cycling forum where I posted it and put a link to the thread in So Cal in it, and see how long it lasted and how many posts appeared in it. I don't think the info in it was groundbreaking.

Could you imagine a reference book that is done in this manner? A book that is not set up logically so that information could be found easily would not be considered by most as a good reference book.

A public website like this is not a reference book. If so, then ALL humor should be removed...you know? Like the stuff posted in Road Cycling? And everything should be alphabetized and this shoud be BikeReference.net and not Bikeforums.net. ;)

To have any information you want to post in a regional forum, destroys the regional forum. It will become a mini Bike Forum. A mini Bike Forum that just so happens to be called "Great Lakes" or "SoCal", it mights as well be called "Julie's Forum". Instead of one Bike Forum that is logically organized by subject, we would have many small bike forums that are not logically divided, making information harder to find and share.

Go take a peek at So Cal and you tell me if it's been destroyed. Hmmm...let's see, we have rides going, ride reports, social activities, Event Calendar, cycling related challenges, race threads and much more. I guess all those threads that are not just "regional specific" didn't take us down, now did they? Nor has Bike forums become a "mini" forum. Oh, and last I checked...you don't own Bikeforums, but you could start BikeReference.net and set it up just as you please. :)

chipcom

03-22-08, 09:54 PM

Chippy, I :love: you and would love to hug you. ;)

But, I'm sorry, here is where I'm going to be disagreeable. Gary has plenty of info at his fingertips in Road Cycling. He also knows how to use the search function to find any subject he pleases. The info is available to him and not "tucked" away. We in So Cal shouldn't be forced to have to ensure all of our threads are put in Road Cycling. If So Cal was closed to the Road Cycling members, then one could argue for this, but as it stands, ANYONE can come into the Regional Forums at any time.

Ok let's just hug and forget Gary! What do I get if I throw him under a bus?

Just for giggles, if you only stayed in SoCal, would you have ever thought to do a search for photoshopped versions of my ugly mug? I think that's the point Gary is trying to make...it would be nice if some topics that are in the regional and other non-genre specific forums could be 'found' in genre specific forums where the subject matter is related...then the regional forums keep their freedom of subject matter, but others outside that region could more easily stumble upon them in their genre specific forums.

merider1

03-22-08, 10:01 PM

I have met many members in person. I have also communicated with far more members via PM and e-mail. I would hate to think that the members who have not met me in person don't view me as a friend, and part of the cycling community, simply because I am 'anonymous'.

Most of us in C & V have never met--but we are always looking for ways to better the community as a whole.

East Hill

EH, you're taking my comments out of context. I never said I haven't made a friend on here whom I haven't met. I merely pointed out that communities in which members HAVE met and are friends (who see and ride with each other on a regular basis, and whose families are known) have less of an anonymous feel to them. Again, in MY OPINION, that is more of a community keeping with the true sense of the word, than a collective group of anonymous people, some of whom never reveal who they are in the least. There is a distinction and I believe you know that. So, please don't take what I said and make assumptions.

East Hill

03-22-08, 10:29 PM

EH, you're taking my comments out of context. I never said I haven't made a friend on here whom I haven't met. I merely pointed out that communities in which members HAVE met and are friends (who see and ride with each other on a regular basis, and whose families are known) have less of an anonymous feel to them. Again, in MY OPINION, that is more of a community keeping with the true sense of the word, than a collective group of anonymous people, some of whom never reveal who they are in the least. There is a distinction and I believe you know that. So, please don't take what I said and make assumptions.

Without making any assumptions, it would appear that you do not feel that BikeForums is a true community. Do you not desire to have people who ride bicycles come together in a community?

East Hill

Roody

03-22-08, 10:33 PM

Chippy, I :love: you and would love to hug you. ;)

But, I'm sorry, here is where I'm going to be disagreeable. Gary has plenty of info at his fingertips in Road Cycling. He also knows how to use the search function to find any subject he pleases. The info is available to him and not "tucked" away. We in So Cal shouldn't be forced to have to ensure all of our threads are put in Road Cycling. If So Cal was closed to the Road Cycling members, then one could argue for this, but as it stands, ANYONE can come into the Regional Forums at any time.

I would not feel comfortable coming there, if your posts here are typical of what I would find. It's probably just my own insecurities, but it sounds like a clique that's very difficult for newcomers to bust into. Based on your own words, you don't much value the input of people you haven't met in person, or even those who live outside a certain geographic area.

For me, the greatest joy of the internet is "meeting" people who live in diefferent regions and discovering the many things that we have in common, and learning to accept at the same time our many differences. Bikeforums has always been a leader in that regard, and I'm sure it will continue to be.

merider1

03-22-08, 10:39 PM

Without making any assumptions, it would appear that you do not feel that BikeForums is a true community. Do you not desire to have people who ride bicycles come together in a community?

East Hill

EH, again, you know what I mean. :rolleyes: There are actually people in the world that think website forums are creepy because of the anonymity and they don't view people who participate in cyber chats (i.e. forums) as one big family and community. Why? Because we don't all really know each other and having the "cyber shield," as I like to call it, isn't conducive to what a true community is. The word community is used liberally with respect to this website. The owners/moderators could have just called us the "group." Now, when you use the word "group," which is technically what we all are collectively as members on here, you don't get the same fuzzy feelings for all the anonymous posters on here, now do you?

I'm not going to entertain what you're trying to suggest (i.e. I don't care one iota if I sound as if I'm not all into the whole community, Kumbaya crap). No, this website and all the members on here collectively are not what a true community is. However, some genuine communities have popped up on here. So Cal and No Cal regional forums are examples. FOO is another example. They aren't regional, but they are a community. And, oh yeah, many of them have met. ;)

East Hill

03-22-08, 10:41 PM

Now, when you use the word "group," which is technically what we all are collectively as members on here, you don't get the same fuzzy feelings for all the anonymous posters on here, now do you?

On the contrary. I try and greet everyone who comes here with warmth and friendliness, because that is how I would like to be met when I first come to a board.

East Hill

merider1

03-22-08, 10:44 PM

I would not feel comfortable coming there, if your posts here are typical of what I would find. It's probably just my own insecurities, but it sounds like a clique that's very difficult for newcomers to bust into. Based on your own words, you don't much value the input of people you haven't met in person, or even those who live outside a certain geographic area.

For me, the greatest joy of the internet is "meeting" people who live in diefferent regions and discovering the many things that we have in common, and learning to accept at the same time our many differences. Bikeforums has always been a leader in that regard, and I'm sure it will continue to be.

Sorry you wish to judge me in this thread where I am debating passionately about something I feel strongly about (and have an opposing view that I nor any member on here has to always think for the "betterment" of the whole community due to one or two members' opinions). Why don't you come to the So Cal regional forum where I welcome every new member who introduces him/herself? Why don't you come read my ride reports and encouragement I give to the members, whether they are on the ride or not? Why don't you come and read my threads that I've started in an attempt to garner commaraderie?

Then judge me.

merider1

03-22-08, 10:46 PM

On the contrary. I try and greet everyone who comes here with warmth and friendliness, because that is how I would like to be met when I first come to a board.

East Hill

So do I, EH, and in the past I use to go into the Introduction thread on a regular basis and welcome people. Now, I do that over in So Cal in the Who Are You thread. If I see a new member post over there, I try to respond to him/her to make them feel welcomed.

So, your point is?

Roody

03-22-08, 10:56 PM

Sorry you wish to judge me in this thread where I am debating passionately about something I feel strongly about (and have an opposing view that I nor any member on here has to always think for the "betterment" of the whole community due to one or two members' opinions). Why don't you come to So Cal where I welcome every new member who introduces him/herself? Why don't you come read my ride reports and encouragement I give to the members, whether they are on the ride or not? Why don't you come and read my threads that I've started in an attempt to garner commaraderie?

Then judge me.

I'm sorry that I sounded like I was judging you. I had no right to, for sure. :)

The reason that I've never come to SoCal is that I was under the impression that it was a regional thread, and I haven't lived in that particular region since 30 years ago. Now that I know SoCal is a general interest forum (and a welcoming and affirming one at that), I'll give it a look-see.

merider1

03-22-08, 11:04 PM

I'm sorry that I sounded like I was judging you. I had no right to, for sure. :)

The reason that I've never come to SoCal is that I was under the impression that it was a regional thread, and I haven't lived in that particular region since 30 years ago. Now that I know SoCal is a general interest forum (and a welcoming and affirming one at that), I'll give it a look-see.

Roody, you are more than welcome in So Cal. We have folks from all over. We have BikeWNC who is coming to visit in a month and are organizing a ride for him while he is here. Members from outside So Cal enrich that regional forum and are always welcomed. Yes, many of us know each other and have inside jokes (from the rides we do and constant posting with one another), but if you just jump in and post a few times, you'll be right in the fold. We really aren't a "clique." We're all adults with very different lives who've met because of that regional forum.

I think that's why I'm so protective of it. My life and my riding has been greatly enhanced due to the fun, eclectic group of adults I would not have met if not for this website and that regional forum.

SweetLou

03-22-08, 11:55 PM

Actually, SweetLou, just becasue YOU haven't seen it, doesn't mean other members haven't whined and complained (maybe not like Garysol did with a thread in here, but trust me, they have in other posts).
Ah, I guess I don't go to SoCal forums so I was not privileged to this information.

We've had more than one thread where people who feel left out, complain about So Cal. And it has been repeated that no thread or ride is closed to any member of Bike Forums. As for Roadies going to So Cal, they can choose to or not. Just as I can choose to go outside of So Cal or not. I don't care if people feel left out or not. I don't care if people think they are left out of rides or not. I care about the free exchange of information in an easy organized manner.

But the two don't need to be blended for any greater benefit of the forums.
I agree, they shouldn't be blended, the things that deal with regional stuff should go in the regional sections, the stuff that deals with electronics should go in the electronic section, mechanical problems should go in the mechanical section...

Perfect example is the Garmin thread. Roadies who want info on Garmins can do a search of all of Bike Forums and visit any thread they want. Threads come and go all the time, so the search function is necessary to find threads no longer at the top of any boards. Therefore, in any members search, he/she can find all the info they want from past threads in any forum, including the regional forums. This is true, anyone can and should do a search if they are searching for something in particular. I don't know about you, but for me, when I come here I usually don't think to myself, "I will try to help someone that has a bottom bracket problem", then do a search for it. No, what I do is go to the forums of my interest, read the new posts and if I have anything to offer, I will. By putting threads in an unorganized manner as you wish, prevents this help. Since I have no interest Tandem Cycling, a question might be asked that I could have answered, but since it was posted in Tandem Cycling instead of Touring, I won't see it and can't help. This is a breakdown in the system.

This is the argument that gets me frothing at the mouth. Why do you think YOU have the right to say what the regional members should discuss? I don't complain to the mods and say that the Roadies should only discuss what is about Road cycling (i.e. no racing threads, threads about bike bling, etc. - I mean, if we're going to split hairs here...???) Naturally, when posting in the regional forums, ALL topics come up and suggesting that those members there only talk about their regions is called "censorship." Do you really want to go there?

What gives me the right? This forum here. It is set up for just that thing. I don't care if you don't complain and are happy that people can post whatever they wish wherever they wish. This board was setup into different categories and forums for a reason.

What's wrong with censorship? We have it here on BF. Censorship is only bad for governements to impose on the people. BF has censorship so that I can't say anything I wish. For example, I am not allowed to just call someone a bunch of bad names. We are also not saying you can't discuss what you want, within reason, but that it should be done in the propler location.

That's your choice. Just as it is mine, and as I said, I do not want to go to Road Cycling for anonymous advice, nor should I have to. That isn't a rule in the Forum Guidelines..."members MUST go into all forums to get/give advice and offer info." :rolleyes:You are correct, it is not a guideline and we shouldn't have to go to all forums to give and receive advice, but this is exactly what you want us to do. You want us to have to do a search and find the information that should have been in the mechanics section but is in the SoCal section.

I fundamentally disagree with this and think it twisted thinking. Again, no rule or requirement of membership states that we, as members of bike forums, have to consider the feelings and needs of everyone on here. I can't please everyone and I'm not the least bit interested in doing so. I think most folks (normal folks) don't expect that of all members. I know I don't.

I don't think anyone could please everyone, but it is a rule here on BF. Like I stated above, I can't just call you a naughty name. I can't make racial slurs, etc. Are you saying that I should be allowed
to offend people for no good reason?
quote=merider1]There's a give and take on ANY public website and an understanding that other than common respect, none of us owe anyone else anything.[/quote]Oh, so we do need to think of others' feelings. Or is to treat someone with common respect for some other reason than that?

There are things I don't agree with, but I don't go complaining that my feelings should go above others.
Yes you do. You are doing that exact thing right here.

I repeat, just because YOU haven't seen it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. And I do view Gary's exchange in So Cal and complaint here as a chip on his shoulder and I've explained why.
Maybe he has, but all I know is from what I read in this thread. Maybe if I did browse SoCal's forum I would have known. But I have no interest in that forum, so that is information that is lost to me.

A public website like this is not a reference book. If so, then ALL humor should be removed...you know? Like the stuff posted in Road Cycling? And everything should be alphabetized and this shoud be BikeReference.net and not Bikeforums.net. ;)A web based forum is exactly like a reference book. Why would humor be removed? It is just another part of the reference book. Why alphabetized? There are many ways things can be organized, but I see no benefit of organization through alphabetization.

Go take a peek at So Cal and you tell me if it's been destroyed. Hmmm...let's see, we have rides going, ride reports, social activities, Event Calendar, cycling related challenges, race threads and much more. I guess all those threads that are not just "regional specific" didn't take us down, now did they? Nor has Bike forums become a "mini" forum. Oh, and last I checked...you don't own Bikeforums, but you could start BikeReference.net and set it up just as you please. :)

You didn't understand what I meant by "destroyed". I guess I needed to do a better job of explaining. What I meant that by posting anything that is not regional specific or in case of C&V, old bike stuff, then the meaning of the forum is gone. It is no longer a regional or C&V forum, but it is a mini bikeforums.net.

For some reason, you want a many of the same forums grouped under bikeforums.net. I don't understand this.

SweetLou

03-23-08, 12:03 AM

So do I, EH, and in the past I use to go into the Introduction thread on a regular basis and welcome people. Now, I do that over in So Cal in the Who Are You thread. If I see a new member post over there, I try to respond to him/her to make them feel welcomed.

So, your point is?I never got a "Hi Lou!" but that doesn't matter. I used to live in Southern California and was thinking about moving back. I have posted in that forum and not one person responded to me, at least that I remember. But that is neither here nor there, the topic isn't about how friendly SoCal forum is, it is about posting in the proper forum for ease of information sharing.

SweetLou

03-23-08, 12:05 AM

Roody, you are more than welcome in So Cal. We have folks from all over. We have BikeWNC who is coming to visit in a month and are organizing a ride for him while he is here. Members from outside So Cal enrich that regional forum and are always welcomed. Yes, many of us know each other and have inside jokes (from the rides we do and constant posting with one another), but if you just jump in and post a few times, you'll be right in the fold. We really aren't a "clique." We're all adults with very different lives who've met because of that regional forum.

I think that's why I'm so protective of it. My life and my riding has been greatly enhanced due to the fun, eclectic group of adults I would not have met if not for this website and that regional forum.That's great. That is what a regional forum is about. If I was going to go to Southern California, I would post there asking about the region. Keep up the good work on this part.

merider1

03-23-08, 09:08 AM

I don't care if people feel left out or not. I don't care if people think they are left out of rides or not. I care about the free exchange of information in an easy organized manner.

Again, this is what YOU want. I really see a BikeReference.net in your future. ;)

I agree, they shouldn't be blended, the things that deal with regional stuff should go in the regional sections, the stuff that deals with electronics should go in the electronic section, and mechanical problems should go in the mechanical section...

As I said, it is natural for those in regional sections who all know and trust each other to discuss all topics. We shouldn't be told that we can only talk about "regional stuff." And, actually, who decides what regional stuff is? In every region there is a need to discuss all cycling related issues and in every region there exists certain weather conditions, cultures, etc. that make that regions members' experiences different from others. Therefore, our discussion on Garmins and use of them for elevation gain in the Santa Monicas versus the San Gabriels and how the info recorded is exaggerated (for example - and actually, I think there is a thread in So Cal that covers this) is certainly acceptable as it pertains to our area specifically. Much is true of most topics we discuss from racing to rides to my asking what pet I should get (I found out that gerbils are, in fact, illegal in CA).

This is true, anyone can and should do a search if they are searching for something in particular. I don't know about you, but for me, when I come here I usually don't think to myself, "I will try to help someone that has a bottom bracket problem", then do a search for it. No, what I do is go to the forums of my interest, read the new posts and if I have anything to offer, I will. By putting threads in an unorganized manner as you wish, prevents this help. Since I have no interest Tandem Cycling, a question might be asked that I could have answered, but since it was posted in Tandem Cycling instead of Touring, I won't see it and can't help. This is a breakdown in the system.

You and I don't see eye to eye on this at all. I don't think any of the forums are organized in the least. As I've already pointed out, in Road Cycling (I use this forum as an example for all forums as it is the most populated forum on here) there is no rhyme or reason and threads come and go so fast, often there are as little as one or two posts to anyone's question, or you have members (whom I won't name) who pick on the OP, are sarcastic and nasty or simply ignore the thread altogether. I hate going in that forum sometimes and I've seen threads for ALL types of topics NOT related specifically to Road Cycling. Therefore this complaint and subsequent examination of the regional forums and "how they should be only be about regional topics" seems to me to have a deeper underlying motivation to it. I believe some are either jealous or threatened by the fact that the cohesiveness in the So Cal forum comes from the friendships and relationships formed there and not from some thread posting system that we've devised and allowed to run amuck just to exclude other members on Bike Forums as a whole and thereby hide information. I think if members are going to examine and question the regional forums, then the Road Cycling Forum needs to be seriously revamped. If you don't like it unorganized, why not start there?

What gives me the right? This forum here. It is set up for just that thing. I don't care if you don't complain and are happy that people can post whatever they wish wherever they wish. This board was setup into different categories and forums for a reason.

Yes, but again, I'm questioning why you or any other member would complain about So Cal, especially if you don't spend time over there - which you've admitted that you don't. Nor does Garysol. And, something being ignored here entirely is that perhaps Regional Forums don't fall entirely under any one sub category. They were originally set up to allow people in a specific region to make contacts with other cyclists in that region and to make connections. So Cal and No Cal have been immensely successful in this respect and I think the owners of the forum should be proud of that and foster that continued type of success within the open, easily accessible regional forums. Oh, and not just the two California regions either - other regions have picked up some and discussions take place there all the time. Northeast is another excellent example.

What's wrong with censorship? We have it here on BF. Censorship is only bad for governements to impose on the people. BF has censorship so that I can't say anything I wish. For example, I am not allowed to just call someone a bunch of bad names. We are also not saying you can't discuss what you want, within reason, but that it should be done in the propler location.

Censorship used to make a small number of people happy compared to the overall group is bad for a variety of reasons. And I'm not talking about censoring language, porn and other over the line, obvious offenses. But censoring by nature of telling a group that they can only discuss certain topics or threads will be moved would destroy the regional forums. You say that isn't what you want, but that's what you'll get. Example: If all the regions are to discuss only what pertains to their region, then any ride not in that region should be moved, yes? So, if a member is riding a charity ride, than any donations being asked for should be over in the Charity Events forum. But the member in the Regional Forum may want to post a thread in their region asking those members he/she trusts (and have ridden with) if any of them have ridden the ride, ask for advice, ask for donations, post a ride report, etc. That is what makes the regional forums fun and exciting. It isn't just some sub category forum. People in the regional areas have common bonds that go beyond just the internet - and I will reiterate here, NO ONE IS EXCLUDED. We have a fellow coming from the south in a few weeks for which we are organizing rides and dinners for. Should that thread go into Road Cycling? I mean, the visiting member isn't from So Cal! :rolleyes:

I hope you get my point here. Discussions and where they should be is highly subjective and blanketing it with "it should be done in the proper location" creates a whole new set of issues. And, again, you really need to start with Road Cycling and starting weeding that forum out before picking on the smaller regional forums.

You are correct, it is not a guideline and we shouldn't have to go to all forums to give and receive advice, but this is exactly what you want us to do. You want us to have to do a search and find the information that should have been in the mechanics section but is in the SoCal section.

No, I don't want anyone to "have" to do anything. And you're entirely ignoring my point (and reality) that members have to do a search anyway if they want real information and this has nothing to do with the regional forums. Threads are not alphabetized and are all over the place in all of the forums on here, not to mention that there are threads from over a year or so ago with very valuable info in them completely hidden unless you go through pages and pages of threads and posts. Any member truly seeking information (which is the basis of Garysol's and your argument about the regional forums having hidden info) will perform a search function. It's fast and easy to do and will provide them far better results than just casually perusing threads. What you and Garysol really mean is that for entertainment value, you want the right to find it all in Road Cycling. And that is asking too much and isn't a requirement of this forum. To use your former argument and set up the perfect world for you guys, then really ALL subjects should just go into one big forum called Cycling, sub categories should be done away with, everything should be alphabetized, all discussion that isn't imperative to the topic removed and humor/links to other websites/photos/anecdotes strictly forbidden. It would be sanitized, clean, and easy to access information. And it would be so boring that most members would leave it a ghost town. Oh, wait - BikeReference.net! :D

I don't think anyone could please everyone, but it is a rule here on BF. Like I stated above, I can't just call you a naughty name. I can't make racial slurs, etc. Are you saying that I should be allowed
to offend people for no good reason?

No, of course not and you know I'm not suggesting that, so please don't try to turn this discussion into that. Having a regional forum that is allowed all discussion - that is OPEN to all - shouldn't offend anyone. And if it does offend one or two people, those one or two people should be questioned and not the validity of what over 200 want. At some point, majority does rule.

Oh, so we do need to think of others' feelings. Or is to treat someone with common respect for some other reason than that?

Common respect and feelings have nothing to do with how a member on an internet website feels this forum should look for informational purposes, Lou. Common respect can and should be given to any person that anyone meets by simply following the rules of society (or in this case, of this forum as put forth in the guidelines). But the term "feelings" has a far greater meaning and please don't try to avert the subject at hand. As I said to East Hill in here, you know what I mean and I'm not entertaining an argument that takes the regional forum and its use well out of context. I can (and do) respect the members on here without worrying about every single person's desire of how he/she wants this forum to look and be presented. And that is exactly what is going on with this thread and is what this discussion is about. Let's stick to that, shall we?

Yes you do. You are doing that exact thing right here.

No. I'm not complaining, I'm defending. Entirely different. I have an investment in So Cal and I've spent an exorbitant amount of time there. I have tons of ride reports and pictures that I took the time to put up in hopes of encouraging others. I'm no saint and don't pretend to be, but I am someone who tries to foster camaraderie and positive reinforcement of others and I think that my contributions in So Cal reflect that. Some may not like me, they may not like my style and they may not like some of my topics or opinions, but I can't please everyone, no one can please everyone. And that is the crux of my defense in here. It hits the nail on the head, actually.

But I have no interest in that forum, so that is information that is lost to me.
A web based forum is exactly like a reference book. Why would humor be removed? It is just another part of the reference book. Why alphabetized? There are many ways things can be organized, but I see no benefit of organization through alphabetization.

Well, now you're contradicting yourself. You do or you don't want the information to be easily found? You do or you don't want topics to be specific to the region and the threads to present this information without it becoming hidden (humor can take a thread off track in a heartbeat)? Oh, so you have no interest in the So Cal forum...BUT, you do want to be sure that it's about regional subjects only. Hmmmm...very interesting. So, you just want the piece of mind that the regional forums are only about regional subjects (whatever that means exactly) just "because" they should be in your mind even though you really have no interest in ever going in there? So, you, a member who doesn't even care to go into the So Cal forum (and others like you) should be allowed to decide for that forum even if there are over 200 members who frequent that forum on a regular basis and like it pretty much as is? Again...very interesting.

You didn't understand what I meant by "destroyed". I guess I needed to do a better job of explaining. What I meant that by posting anything that is not regional specific or in case of C&V, old bike stuff, then the meaning of the forum is gone. It is no longer a regional or C&V forum, but it is a mini bikeforums.net.
For some reason, you want a many of the same forums grouped under bikeforums.net. I don't understand this.

Well, now that I know that you don't even go into So Cal, the above opinion that you have doesn't seem as threatening. You really don't know the value of that regional forum, do you? You don't know the regular members, you haven't read about our rides. You doubtfully know about our CAM/PAM challenges, threads welcoming new riders, threads about local injured riders, races, stories of our lives, etc. And you know what, with our little forum (that is open to everyone on Bikeforums.net) we have done nothing to jeopardize or harm the integrity of the forums that exist. The point I made about Road Cycling having 26+ threads about garmins and our regional forum only having one or two was completely ignored, but it's a very valid point. We aren't disrupting any flow of information on this website, we aren't discriminating or excluding any member based on sex, race, age or economic status, and we aren't going into other forums demanding that if that forum has a single thread on California Ride Stats then that thread should be moved to our So Cal regional forum where it damn well belongs!!!! :rolleyes:

With that entire said, why don't you do a little research over in the regional forums to get a feel for what they are truly about?

barba

03-23-08, 09:24 AM

merider1

03-23-08, 09:27 AM

I never got a "Hi Lou!" but that doesn't matter. I used to live in Southern California and was thinking about moving back. I have posted in that forum and not one person responded to me, at least that I remember. But that is neither here nor there, the topic isn't about how friendly SoCal forum is, it is about posting in the proper forum for ease of information sharing.

Maybe I was out riding that day and didn't see your post. ;) We have an introductory thread and a thread where people can put pics (I created it). Sometimes, if you see a member's picture or meet him/her, it helps you to remember that member and you respond more to that person. That's human behavior and isn't just specific to this website. That's why I created the picture thread. :)

merider1

03-23-08, 09:29 AM

That certainly is a lot of words.

I don't care for the regional forums. They seem like a clique and are not dreadfully inviting or accessible. Perhaps you should set up your own regional forum if you feel this strongly on the matter? There are tons of regional/city specific fixed gear forums. They may provide a nice model.

And you base this on what, excactly? In lieu of just having that opinion, why don't you get to know the people in So Cal first? Oh, and isn't it lovely how you have the freedom to just ignore the regional forums all together?

Perhaps you should just ignore the regional forums and enjoy the rest of Bike Forums if you feel this strongly on the matter. :)

barba

03-23-08, 09:34 AM

I don't feel strongly about it at all and you come off as very defensive.

I don't tend to read any particular forum. I am a bit more of a grazer and hit "view new posts". Whatever looks interesting is what I read. I read your threads, as well.

merider1

03-23-08, 09:36 AM

Roody

03-23-08, 10:55 AM

If you read what I wrote below (which I'm thinking you didn't) you'd know why. The So Cal forum does matter to me and if I sound a little defensive in tone, so be it. I can't please everyone, as I've pointed out, so you'll just have to forgive me. :)

I can understand your defensiveness. About a year ago, I mistakenly believed that one of my favorite subforums was going to be eliminated or weakened, and I got pretty defensive also. But one thing I learned from the experience is that Brian and the mods are not interested in cutting subforums, so my defensiveness wasn't even called for. Based on my own experience, I think you're perceiving a threat where none exists.

My advice to you (even though I'm pretty sure you don't want any advice) is to relax and let the SoCal forum go wherever it goes. Try participating in some of the other subforums, even if that's a little outside your comfort zone right now. You can probably find a couple threads that interest you in almost any subforum on this board.

merider1

03-23-08, 12:22 PM

I can understand your defensiveness. About a year ago, I mistakenly believed that one of my favorite subforums was going to be eliminated or weakened, and I got pretty defensive also. But one thing I learned from the experience is that Brian and the mods are not interested in cutting subforums, so my defensiveness wasn't even called for. Based on my own experience, I think you're perceiving a threat where none exists.

My advice to you (even though I'm pretty sure you don't want any advice) is to relax and let the SoCal forum go wherever it goes. Try participating in some of the other subforums, even if that's a little outside your comfort zone right now. You can probably find a couple threads that interest you in almost any subforum on this board.

Thanks, Roody, and actually, I do welcome advice. :) My debate style is lacking in graciousness, I know. I was on the debate team in college and that was my weakness. I'm like a Pug or Poodle who barks repeatedly and then can't understand why all of you don't see me wagging my tail as I'm barking (after all, I'm all bark and no bite...get it?:p). I'm not angry or bitter, and yes, you are correct, I doubt there really is any true threat. I'm just emphatic when expressing my opinions and because I really do enjoy the So Cal regional forum so much, I hope it isn't ever told to only discuss certain topics. As I mentioned before, in my opinion, that would be certain death of that forum.

As for my straying outside of So Cal, I do all the time. Something you and some of the others here might not know is that I have upwards of 17,000 posts on here. :eek: I go all over and post all over. Of late, I've been more in the regional forum, but I was very unhappy about what happened in FOO and decided to stay out of it (I can only guard one forum at a time, you know). But FOO doesn't seem the same to me (it's lost its once carefree vibe), so I don't go there so much anymore. The Road Cycling forum drives me crazy as that is where members with "cyber courage" are so insulting to other members, something I don't care for. I may debate passionately and come across angry, but I won't belittle a member on here. (I'm not belittling Garysol one bit, I just don't agree with him.) I like Nutrition and Training and I've been in the Clydesdale forum among others. But my interests are mostly road cycling and definitely mostly regional specific due to the rides that are organized there and the great folks that, over a year and a half, I've gotten to know and care about. That's just my personal choice and nothing more.

Sixty Fiver

03-23-08, 12:29 PM

It would be nice to be able to cross post to multiple forums - some topics fit in multiple places, but ancient internet edimucate says cross posting is a no-no. Funny how the info superhighway is full of so many antiquated roadblocks. ;)

I have boundary issues... :lol:

I cross post things quite often as the things I post (usually pictures) can fall into so many different categories... my vintage fixed gear road touring bike is a good example.

I think that if a topic is relevant to you and you have something to contribute to the discussion, post away and see if you can;t knock down some of those virtual walls.

SweetLou

03-23-08, 12:55 PM

merider1

03-23-08, 01:45 PM

There are many cycling forums. I come here for the way it is organized and the information sharing process. I used to go to other forums, but now I don't. I don't go there because of they way they are organized. Organization is good. There are reasons for organization. I think there was an example in this thread about frame building in one of the regional forums. This is a great example of what shouldn't be in a regional forum, but what should be in the frame building section.

I think Thomson already answered this. And we're going around in circles. You clearly want the forums as a whole to be organized a certain way. I personally don't care how they are organized since I don't own the forums, and I see great value in the regional forums as they are and don't feel members should be forced to consider the entire world when putting a thread up. This is like beating a dead horse here, but the regional forums are open to all members of Bikeforums and anyone can go read anything they want at any time. That is your choice to do, but suggesting what "shouldn't be in a regional forum" is your opinion and not based on any real reason since you do have access to the regional forums and the search function.

To make this thread in a regional section, you are leaving out peer review.

So you are suggesting that the members in the regional forum aren't peers and their review doesn't matter? Or is it that the views of only those who build steel frames count? What if there is a member in So Cal who has seen the frame of the OP on that thread, knows that OP, and although he/she never thought of building up a bike or frame, suddenly had interest due to his/her personal experience with that OP? Why, if this is the case (which it is), does that thread then not belong in that region? It makes sense and, again, no one is being denied any information.

This knowledge would be lost to me because since it is new, I would never have ever thought to do a search for it.

Here is where you really lose me. When I was new on here, I used the search function all the time to find info and often, by using that tool, I found threads and forums I would not have just gone looking for on my own. I think a lot of new members search for what interests them and find forums that they like. I don’t think any of them are being denied useful information by doing so and it would be hard to argue that they are!

Your argument about keeping everything in a regional forum because you know them is ridiculous. I don't know about you, but when I joined BF, I didn't know anyone. By posting in other forums, we get to know other people. We can then learn who's opinion to trust and not trust. Just like the people of a regional forum have done.

Again, you've lost me. That is not my primary argument. It's not because I know them. In fact, some members I don't know and some I haven't even met, but they have made connections in that forum with members in their areas and have ridden together or share info about bike shops they go to and suggest bike paths, routes, etc. You cannot deny that when members share a geographic proximity that the knowledge gleaned from those members is even more valuable to others who live and bike in that area. Ask yourself why you don't hang out in the So Cal regional forum, Lou? Could it be that hearing about the SGRT bike path has no interest to you since you don't ride it? Well, guess what? - many members on here do. Thus, the reason for the regional forums to begin with...these forums serve the members in the same region with the same concerns coming together. It makes perfect sense and is very valuable. The fact that human nature means we will all talk about a variety of topics shouldn’t be a problem, especially given the access to the forums. I’ve said this before – if the regional forums were only open to the members in each region, then you might have something to argue. But as it stands, the info there is open to anyone who chooses to go into those regional forums.

Why do you not see the forums as being organized? Because people post in wrong forums.

Nice try, but no, sir, I never said that people posting in the wrong forums is the reason for Bikeforums.net being unorganized. I suggested that forums in general are not as organized as, say, a reference site would be. The threads in all of the forums on here come and go and there is cross posting all over. That's human nature, and personally, I'm not the one complaining about it, remember? ;) :D

I am glad that your regional forum is close and you find great enjoyment out of it. I like my regional forum also. You have mentioned that I should start bikereference.net. But why? This forum is set up the way I like it, it has many knowledgeable members. Maybe you should start a bikesocal.net. But I see no reason to do that.

If this forum is set up the way you like it, why are you in here arguing for threads to be only pertaining to the exact category of the forum you think they should be in? I suggested bikereference.net as to me it sounds like what you want - an easy way for new people to find info. This is a FORUM...it isn't as easily controlled. As for bikesocal.net - that's a possibility, although it would be a shame if the regional forums here ever go away. Again, I see great value in them from personal experience and the experience of others. I think the owners do as well, since the regional forums seem stronger than ever and are still kicking.

Yes, you are correct that only rides that deal with a region should be in that regional forum. If someone is doing a charity ride that is not in that region and the person has questions about the ride, they should ask in the region where the ride will be or in the Charity forum. I see nothing wrong with that. Good censorship. Your example of someone coming there from the South is a great example. It should have been posted there. It would have been silly to post in the South regional forum to ask about SoCal. You guys setting up rides for the visitor is great and it was done in the proper forum. If I was going to Boston, I would ask a question in that region, not in my region.

The above is how YOU think it should go...which brings me back to my questioning if you really mean it when you say that you like how this forum is organized. I don't personally care where people discuss what and have never complained as such.

Again, why you don't understand this is beyond me, is so that I can find things that interest me. Yes, it is an entertainment as well as knowledge gathering. As mentioned above, if you post whatever you want, wherever you want, things will be hidden from members.

Sigh...really? Really, you don't like the search function? Really? :rolleyes: Lou, this argument doesn't work. I'm smacking myself in the head with a 2X4 here, but come on! If you really want all this info that interests you, you either have to go through pages and pages and pages of threads on any given forum or you have to search for it. Period. So, no, sorry...nothing is hidden. Well, except the women's forum, a whole other issue to argue in another thread if you'd like. ;)

Until you can give me a good reason why a frame building thread should be posted in a regional forum besides "we are comfortable with the people in that forum", then I will believe it should not be there and should be posted in its proper forum. Now, if SoCal had some laws about building frames or the methods that are used, like "black flux is illegal in Oceanside" then it should be there, but that thread didn't mention anything to make frame building regional specific. Oh, Please explain again how I am contradicting myself again. I don't understand your reasoning. How is wanting an organized manner of posting contradicting?

It's contradicting because in one breath you say you understand regional forums but in the next you completely ignore and generalize the notion of folks having met and knowing each other a little more than just as a “handle” on a website. As has already been explained, the member who put that thread up did so as people who met him and have seen his self built frame asked him about it. He's a very knowledgeable guy and likable individual who (I'm guessing here) didn't feel the need to put that thread out to the masses. He put that in the So Cal region specifically for the riders who admire what he's done to his own bike. You nor anyone else has the right to demand that he put that out to the world if he doesn’t want to (again – not a rule in the forum guidelines). Perhaps he should have put in the thread title, "Frame Building 101 for the So Cal Members Who've Asked" - would that appease you? And, oh, by the way, he's teaching me how to conduct proper bike maintenance on my bike. I suppose I'm now required to put any thread on that topic in the Bicycling Mechanics Forum once I learn how to lube my chain? Or is it okay if I discuss this with folks in my region who know me, my poorly lubed chain habits and the environment out here? You’re welcome to come read it and all, you know.

Again, Lou, come on! There are nuances to the regional forums that make them a little different just by nature of what those forums were initially created for - connections between cyclists in the same regions with the same/similar interests.

StupidlyBrave

03-23-08, 03:57 PM

This can only be settled by arm wrestling. ;)

East Hill

03-23-08, 04:08 PM

This can only be settled by arm wrestling. ;)

Perhaps a pie eating contest?

East Hill

StupidlyBrave

03-23-08, 04:43 PM

Perhaps a pie eating contest?

East Hill

Sorry, but no. The last one (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=355134&highlight=pie+apple) didn't turn out so well. :(

East Hill

03-23-08, 04:48 PM

Sorry, but no. The last one (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=355134&highlight=pie+apple) didn't turn out so well. :(

Oh, too bad :( .

Well, back to arm wrestling, then.

East Hill

alicestrong

03-23-08, 05:10 PM

Alley Cat races...:)

East Hill

03-23-08, 05:18 PM

Alley Cat races...:)

Oh, a bikey solution! Even better :D .

East Hill

Tom Stormcrowe

03-23-08, 05:33 PM

Bike Jousting (http://www.collegehumor.com/video:163346), anyone?

chipcom

03-23-08, 05:38 PM

Until you can give me a good reason why a frame building thread should be posted in a regional forum besides "we are comfortable with the people in that forum", then I will believe it should not be there and should be posted in its proper forum.

Sorry Lou, but following this logic, you couldn't talk about frame building during a group ride or when sitting around in the local pub having a drink with your riding buddies - you could only do so while in a frame building shop. The regional forums are kind of like that pub...they should be able to talk about anything and everything. As has already been mentioned, it is a software problem, not a taxonomy problem.

chipcom

03-23-08, 05:40 PM

This can only be settled by nekkid mud wrestling. ;)

Fixed that for ya.

StupidlyBrave

03-23-08, 05:56 PM

^^^ That'd be far more entertaining. :)

merider1

03-23-08, 05:56 PM

:roflmao:

Okay, fine, folks, I'll knock it off.

Besides, I'm making myself dizzy debating.

I'm just...um...different. And I'm with Chippy! I want to wrestle in mud nekkid. But that's a whole other thread, debate and tons of complaints. :p

merider1

03-23-08, 05:57 PM

Perhaps a pie eating contest?

East Hill

Can we make that cupcakes? Please? :D

SweetLou

03-23-08, 06:22 PM

I think Thomson already answered this. And we're going around in circles. You clearly want the forums as a whole to be organized a certain way. I personally don't care how they are organized since I don't own the forums, and I see great value in the regional forums as they are and don't feel members should be forced to consider the entire world when putting a thread up.
I know you don't care how the forum is set up. You have said this before, that you will post what you want, wherever you want.
This is like beating a dead horse here, but the regional forums are open to all members of Bikeforums and anyone can go read anything they want at any time. That is your choice to do, but suggesting what "shouldn't be in a regional forum" is your opinion and not based on any real reason since you do have access to the regional forums and the search function. Yes, it is like beating a dead horse. You will do what you want, without concerns of the BF community as a whole. I know I have access to the regional forums and I go to them when I am interested in that region.

So you are suggesting that the members in the regional forum aren't peers and their review doesn't matter? Or is it that the views of only those who build steel frames count?Yes, that is what I am saying. The people with knowledge and skills are able to find mistakes, improvements and give recommendations.

What if there is a member in So Cal who has seen the frame of the OP on that thread, knows that OP, and although he/she never thought of building up a bike or frame, suddenly had interest due to his/her personal experience with that OP? Why, if this is the case (which it is), does that thread then not belong in that region? It makes sense and, again, no one is being denied any information.

Well, then the person that is interested in learning how to build a bike frame should check out the frame building forum, since that is where the information is located or at least should be located. It should not be put in the Politics and Religion forum. It is not the the information is denied, it is because it is in a location that a normal person would look.

Here is where you really lose me. When I was new on here, I used the search function all the time to find info and often, by using that tool, I found threads and forums I would not have just gone looking for on my own. I think a lot of new members search for what interests them and find forums that they like. I don’t think any of them are being denied useful information by doing so and it would be hard to argue that they are!
Again, you with the search. What is up with that? I do use the search function of the forum and have found much information through it. But that is not what we are talking about. We are talking about people who go to certain forums to read and learn. Not necessarily about a specific topic, but a more general learning of the forum. For example, let's say I am interested in touring. So, I go to the Touring forum everyday. As I read the new threads, someone has posted about a tire, the SweetLou Touring Tire. I read the thread about it and find it educational and that I would like to try that tire for my next tour.

Now, you say I should just search for the SweetLou Touring Tire. Well, I didn't know about that tire, how should I have searched for it? I couldn't. The only way I can learn about this is if I go to the Touring forum and read the new thread.

Anyone interested in touring would find that thread. The people that go to the Touring forum would have gain knowledge about a new product. Now, if that review of the SweetLou Touring Tire was posted in the Pacific Northwest forum, that information is lost. Since no one knows about the SweetLou Touring Tire, no one would search for it. Only the people that have an interest in the Pacific Northwest region will see the thread.

Again, you've lost me. That is not my primary argument. Then what is your primary argument?

to others who live and bike in that area[/I]. Ask yourself why you don't hang out in the So Cal regional forum, Lou? Could it be that hearing about the SGRT bike path has no interest to you since you don't ride it? Well, guess what? - many members on here do. Thus, the reason for the regional forums to begin with...these forums serve the members in the same region with the same concerns coming together. It makes perfect sense and is very valuable.I have never denied this. I have mentioned it before. That is what regional forums are for. To share information about that region. I agree that you should talk about local bikes shops, bike paths, etc. Why do you think I have said that this information should not be in the regional forums, since I have said it should.

But that is exactly why I don't go to the SoCal forum, as stated previously, it is of no interest to me.

Nice try, but no, sir, I never said that people posting in the wrong forums is the reason for Bikeforums.net being unorganized.
Yes you have. You mentioned that there is cross posting, things in the Roadie forum that are in the regional forums, etc.

I suggested that forums in general are not as organized as, say, a reference site would be. The threads in all of the forums on here come and go and there is cross posting all over. That's human nature, and personally, I'm not the one complaining about it, remember? ;) :DThat is true, you are complaining about the people that want to have the forums organized as they were designed. You want a little area of Bike Forums where you can post whatever you want. I would rather have the system installed enforced to keep a better organized forums.

quote=merider1]
If this forum is set up the way you like it, why are you in here arguing for threads to be only pertaining to the exact category of the forum you think they should be in? [/quote]What? It is set up the way I like it, it is people that don't post where they should is the problem, not the set up of the forums.

I suggested bikereference.net as to me it sounds like what you want - an easy way for new people to find info. It isn't about new people finding info, it is about everyone finding info. But if you believe my way would be easier for new people to find information, then why are you against it?

Again, beating a dead horse, I don't know how everyone else reads BF, but when I log in, I don't go to the search engine and see if anyone found a Schwinn Tempo. What I do is go to the C&V fourm, look over the new threads and posts. If someone found a Schwinn Tempo and made a thread about it, great! I have an interest that I can read about. But for some reason, you prefer it if I just do searches and see if anyone has made threads about my interests, instead of just going to where they should be located and finding them myself.

This is a FORUM...it isn't as easily controlled. As for bikesocal.net - that's a possibility, although it would be a shame if the regional forums here ever go away. Why would they go away? There is a need and a want for regional forums. Though it has been brought to my attention that you were considering leaving to start a new forum/group.

The above is how YOU think it should go...which brings me back to my questioning if you really mean it when you say that you like how this forum is organized. I don't personally care where people discuss what and have never complained as such. Well, would you be happier with just one forum where everyone posts everything? I doubt that you would, because it has become clear that you prefer to post in a forum where you know people or people that live in the same region as you. Maybe a forum that is only regional forums, get rid of the mechanics, safety, old bike forums? This should satisfy you, but then that would be a waste of resources. Instead of mechanical discussions in one forum, we would have multiple posts about the same thing in multiple forums.

Sigh...really? Really, you don't like the search function? Really? :rolleyes: Oh, nice. I like the Sighing and rolling eyes. Again, you have not explained the wonders of the search function as to do with learning new things. The search function is for finding information about a subject that you have a question about. The sighing should be on my side, not yours. I do like the search function, I use it often. But please explain how I use the search function for things I don't know about?

Should I use the search function to find if anyone has a queston about installing drop bars on a mountain bike? I usually don't come here thinking, "I bet someone asked a question that I can answer about product X". Then do a search to see if they have. No, I go to a forum that has my interest, there I discover someone asked about product X and I help them.

Lou, this argument doesn't work. I'm smacking myself in the head with a 2X4 here, but come on! If you really want all this info that interests you, you either have to go through pages and pages and pages of threads on any given forum or you have to search for it. Period. So, no, sorry...nothing is hidden.What? Why would I go reading pages and pages of threads? I don't. I go to a forum that interests me, I see the threads with new posts and I read them. Where is that 2x4, I need it for myself? Your argument doesn't work. Your magical search function does not pull up threads that I don't know about, but would interest me. I don't have to search for them, since they are given to me. Please see example about the Schwinn Tempo above.

It's contradicting because in one breath you say you understand regional forums but in the next you completely ignore and generalize the notion of folks having met and knowing each other a little more than just as a “handle” on a website. As has already been explained, the member who put that thread up did so as people who met him and have seen his self built frame asked him about it. He's a very knowledgeable guy and likable individual who (I'm guessing here) didn't feel the need to put that thread out to the masses. He put that in the So Cal region specifically for the riders who admire what he's done to his own bike. You nor anyone else has the right to demand that he put that out to the world if he doesn’t want to (again – not a rule in the forum guidelines). Perhaps he should have put in the thread title, "Frame Building 101 for the So Cal Members Who've Asked" - would that appease you? And, oh, by the way, he's teaching me how to conduct proper bike maintenance on my bike. I suppose I'm now required to put any thread on that topic in the Bicycling Mechanics Forum once I learn how to lube my chain? Or is it okay if I discuss this with folks in my region who know me, my poorly lubed chain habits and the environment out here? You’re welcome to come read it and all, you know.Yes, he should have made that thread in the Frame Building forum. If he wants to share his knowledge with people, it should be done in the proper forum. Well, you said he only wants to share it with the SoCal people, exacly how is that now cliquey? But, again, I don't care if a forum is cliquey or not. Yes, you should do a search for how to do maintenance on your bike. Maintenance on bikes should be in the mechanics forum. Broken bottom bracket? Tacoed wheel? If you're having problems with your bicycle, or just need help fixing a flat, drop in here for the latest on bicycle mechanics & bicycle maintenance. As you can see, the people who designed the layout of the forum wanted you to post questions about the maintenance of you bike in a specific location. It doesn't say, of look here and every other forum also, because someone probably posted a question about headset adjustments somewhere else. Do you think your region is so different than everyone else's that the maintenance on your bikes differ so much that the mechanics forum would be of no use? A simple question about your problem will give the people there enough information to help you.

Again, Lou, come on! There are nuances to the regional forums that make them a little different just by nature of what those forums were initially created for - connections between cyclists in the same regions with the same/similar interests.
I agree, that is what they were made for. To share information, stories, ride reports, gathering, etc in that region. Not about what size bottom bracket is used on a '85 Miyata 1000. Unless '85 Miyata 1000s used a different bottom bracket in your region.

SweetLou

03-23-08, 06:29 PM

Sorry Lou, but following this logic, you couldn't talk about frame building during a group ride or when sitting around in the local pub having a drink with your riding buddies - you could only do so while in a frame building shop. The regional forums are kind of like that pub...they should be able to talk about anything and everything. As has already been mentioned, it is a software problem, not a taxonomy problem.What? That is totally false. A group ride or pub is about friends getting together and having fun.Bike Forums is more like a library, where you go to find information. If I want a murder mystery, I go to that section, if I want a book about irrigation systems, I go to that section.

Following your logic, we should get rid of all the forums and only have one big one. Or do you not want certain people on your ride or with you at the pub? You only want your friends with you on that ride? In that case, only regional forums.

solveg

03-23-08, 07:02 PM

May I suggest that this topic is not going to be solved in one sitting? And that it for sure won't be solved by making the dividing line between the regional forums and the general forums even harsher?

Here's what I think... when you see someone post something that you think might be interesting to another forum, why don't we write a PM to the person, telling them that they have a really interested audience in X, and invite them to cross post it. If they're shy, we can put a link in the forum for them.

The regional forums can do their part by being welcoming to people who don't live in that region.

Sure, some good stuff will remain hidden from most people, but forums are an amorphic place. They change as the people change, as they get to know each other, and as the needs of the whole change. It is a slow process, and one to be done with good will and assuming the best of each other.

Sometimes, a non-typical forum is the right choice for some reason. I have a thread in 50+ about modernizing a vintage Mondonico. Clearly a C&V topic more than a 50+ topic. But I have a friend in 50+ who has almost the same bike and is doing the same thing to it. I set up the thread so we could have a place to go through the process together. Maybe the wrong spot, but it made sense. And the C&V guys would only be marginally interested in listening to us describe campy 10 speed parts.

Anyway. None of this is black and white. There is no ONE RIGHT ANSWER. It's all done in good faith and trust.

Just my take on it.

merider1

03-23-08, 07:23 PM

I know you don't care how the forum is set up. You have said this before, that you will post what you want, wherever you want.

Yes, within the forum guidelines, absolutely

You will do what you want, without concerns of the BF community as a whole.

That’s an exaggeration – I follow the rules that I’m given, Lou, and I do have concerns for members and am very kind to many of the members and I try to be respectful (I'm not perfect, but then again, no one is). You’re beginning to sound frustrated.

Yes, that is what I am saying. The people with knowledge and skills are able to find mistakes, improvements and give recommendations.

I don’t know one iota about you and I don’t believe you have the knowledge or skills. But I do know the OP in So Cal, and he definitely does.

Well, then the person that is interested in learning how to build a bike frame should check out the frame building forum, since that is where the information is located or at least should be located.

That is incredibly officious and presumptuous of you to decide exactly how members on here should go gather information, Lou! Why do you get to decide how others should do it? The forum owners have, in fact, provided a search function to…um…oh, yeah….search for info.

Again, you with the search. What is up with that?

See response above. I’m just agreeing with the owners and supporting the function they have provided.

Now, you say I should just search for the SweetLou Touring Tire. Well, I didn't know about that tire, how should I have searched for it? I couldn't. The only way I can learn about this is if I go to the Touring forum and read the new thread.
How about you type in the word "tire" in the search function? – it will bring up SweetLou Touring Tire and lead you to the thread with the info.

Since no one knows about the SweetLou Touring Tire, no one would search for it. Only the people that have an interest in the Pacific Northwest region will see the thread.

How do you know people don’t already know about the SweetLou Touring Tire? And see my response above about the whole typing in “tire” thing…

Then what is your primary argument?

Please revisit posts in this thread. Trust me, it’s in there…over and over and over and over and over….

I have never denied this. I have mentioned it before. That is what regional forums are for. To share information about that region. I agree that you should talk about local bikes shops, bike paths, etc. Why do you think I have said that this information should not be in the regional forums, since I have said it should.

You forgot or are ignoring my point about human nature and that topics will naturally come up that don’t pertain to cycling or, if they do, also pertain to the group within that region. We have a So Cal gal going to China and she’s telling us she’s going. We are all congratulating her and I, for one, am interested in hearing about it – that thread has value, in my opinion, and the starving children in China can use the Search function to find it if they just HAVE to see it.

But that is exactly why I don't go to the SoCal forum, as stated previously, it is of no interest to me.

Fine, then don’t ask me to organize a ride for you when you visit. Na-na-nee-na-nah!

Yes you have. You mentioned that there is cross posting, things in the Roadie forum that are in the regional forums, etc.

Making a point and using examples to make that point in this discussion is not complaining, Lou. There is cross posting and I’ve said, personally, I don’t care.

That is true, you are complaining about the people that want to have the forums organized as they were designed. You want a little area of Bike Forums where you can post whatever you want. I would rather have the system installed enforced to keep a better organized forums.

Now, that’s not nice or true. I’m not asking for any such thing. I’m enjoying a regional forum that does work for many members. And you keep ignoring a truth – no information is being denied anyone. You go right ahead and create that Bikereference.net and you can have any ol’ system you darn well please!

What? It is set up the way I like it, it is people that don't post where they should is the problem, not the set up of the forums.

Oh. So, it’s the PEOPLE that bother you, is it? The PEOPLE are the problem. Lou, seriously, re-read that. And, seriously, think about what exactly you are implying.

It isn't about new people finding info, it is about everyone finding info. But if you believe my way would be easier for new people to find information, then why are you against it?

I don’t understand that above. Everyone can find the info in the regional forums, easily. As for the second sentence – no, I don’t think your way is THE way, actually, but I’m not really against you or what you want. I just don’t agree with it.

Again, beating a dead horse.

There is no horse anymore. The flies have picked the skeleton clean. You seem to assume that I care how YOU find stuff. I don’t. I’m just suggesting that use the system the owners of this forum put in place for you to use. Seems logical to me.

Why would they go away? There is a need and a want for regional forums. Though it has been brought to my attention that you were considering leaving to start a new forum/group.

I never said anyone would go away and if I choose to, I can at any time. Not relevant to this discussion in the least. As for the forums going dead, I do believe that if the regional forums were heavily policed and censored and members were told they could only post absolutely on topic of the region, many members would leave. It has NOTHING to do with me. This is the feedback I’ve received from members in the regional forums. Who would want to be there at that point? Some of us really don’t want to be out in the main Road Cycling forum and that is our choice. You fail to see that demanding we do so for the good of the overall community is kind of creepy actually. Sorry.

Well, would you be happier with just one forum where everyone posts everything?

No

…it has become clear that you prefer to post in a forum where you know people or people that live in the same region as you.

Correct and is that so bad? Does that really bother you so much that I and others like me (yes, they exist) do?

Maybe a forum that is only regional forums, get rid of the mechanics, safety, old bike forums?

No, no. And never have I suggested such a thing.

This should satisfy you, but then that would be a waste of resources. Instead of mechanical discussions in one forum, we would have multiple posts about the same thing in multiple forums.

That sounds like a plot to take over the world, Lou. I don’t want any such thing. I just want you and those like you to leave the little regional forums alone. Think of us as recluses if you must. Or better yet, go pick on the women in the Women’s Forum.

Oh, nice. I like the Sighing and rolling eyes. Again, you have not explained the wonders of the search function as to do with learning new things.

Me too – those little smilies really help show emotion. As for the wonders of the search forum – it isn’t my job to teach you. Just go try it out. It’s pretty easy to use.

I do like the search function, I use it often. But please explain how I use the search function for things I don't know about?

You do?!!! Then why the hell are you asking me to explain anything about it? As for things you don’t know about, honey, I can’t help you. But I doubt the info being shared in the regional forums is curing cancer and enlightening the masses. But…ready for this…YOU…CAN…GO…OVER….THERE…ANY…TIME…YOU….CHOOSE…TO…GET…ALL…THAT…SO….CALLED…INFO…YOU…DESIRE…GOT…IT?

Should I use the search function to find if anyone has a queston about installing drop bars on a mountain bike? I usually don't come here thinking, "I bet someone asked a question that I can answer about product X". Then do a search to see if they have. No, I go to a forum that has my interest, there I discover someone asked about product X and I help them.

What? Why would I go reading pages and pages of threads? I don't. I go to a forum that interests me, I see the threads with new posts and I read them. Where is that 2x4, I need it for myself? Your argument doesn't work. Your magical search function does not pull up threads that I don't know about, but would interest me. I don't have to search for them, since they are given to me. Please see example about the Schwinn Tempo above.

Why do you resist my suggestion of setting up Bikerefernce.net? You could make millions…seriously.

If he wants to share his knowledge with people, it should be done in the proper forum.

You ignored my point…but that’s okay, because the above isn’t rational. If it were, I suspect this place would be chaos with all sorts of different personalities trying to decide where people should do what. The owners decide ultimately, not you or I. I’m not trying to tell people where they should or shouldn’t post. I’m simply defending a valuable and unique area of this forum (the regional forums) - an area open to all members to view.

Well, you said he only wants to share it with the SoCal people, exacly how is that now cliquey? But, again, I don't care if a forum is cliquey or not. Do you think your region is so different than everyone else's that the maintenance on your bikes differ so much that the mechanics forum would be of no use? A simple question about your problem will give the people there enough information to help you.

I hate the word clique. It’s always used by those who don’t take the time or care to take the time to really get to know the group. Usually it’s someone threatened for some unknown reason by the group’s established camaraderie and he/she are hell bent on changing that or, at the very least, complaining about it. And as you mentioned in your last post – you already know that I like to choose where I go on this forum and where I post and where I want to receive info, and due to the fact that I’m a free citizen, like all members on here, I don’t choose to go into certain forums for information or entertainment. Although, I did choose to come into this forum for ample entertainment. :D

I agree, that is what they were made for. To share information, stories, ride reports, gathering, etc in that region. Not about what size bottom bracket is used on a '85 Miyata 1000. Unless '85 Miyata 1000s used a different bottom bracket in your region.

They are different when that bottom bracket is ridden in the climate we ride in, when shops out here order different components at different prices not available in other parts of the country and when one of us knows a particular member with whom we’ve ridden and trust to give us advice a bout it. That’s the beauty of the regional forums.:)

merider1

03-23-08, 07:26 PM

What? That is totally false. A group ride or pub is about friends getting together and having fun.Bike Forums is more like a library, where you go to find information. If I want a murder mystery, I go to that section, if I want a book about irrigation systems, I go to that section.

Following your logic, we should get rid of all the forums and only have one big one. Or do you not want certain people on your ride or with you at the pub? You only want your friends with you on that ride? In that case, only regional forums.

Here in lies the problem. You view this place as a library or reference book. Other members on here view it for a vast variety of reasons and they don't have to use it as YOU see fit, Lou. I'm defending the value of the regional forums but not suggesting that others do it my way and how I see this forum should be used. Why don't you just ignore the regional forums and go on about your business enjoying the threads you like? :)

Tom Stormcrowe

03-23-08, 07:40 PM

Look people, every subforum has their cliques....that's just human nature, and perfectly normal. ;) From my position in the middle, here, I can see merits on both sides of the debate. What say we let this digest for a bit and remember that we aren't going to arrive at a mutually reasonably satisfactory solution right off the bat.

ME, SweetLou, you've both hit impasse here, for now, and that is the reason I suggest letting each other process what has actually been said. ;)