View Full Version : Regional forums
merider1
03-23-08, 08:04 PM
Look people, every subforum has their cliques....that's just human nature, and perfectly normal. ;) From my position in the middle, here, I can see merits on both sides of the debate. What say we let this digest for a bit and remember that we aren't going to arrive at a mutually reasonably satisfactory solution right off the bat.
ME, SweetLou, you've both hit impasse here, for now, and that is the reason I suggest letting each other process what has actually been said. ;)
Tom, have we broken a forum guideline by discussing this? I don't see any guidelines broken. No nastiness or name calling and we are certainly in the appropriate forum to discuss this, yes?
Why would we need intervention from you on how to process this? I find that odd. Or is there a rule against debating? I've seen a ton of that over in the Road Cycling and in my case, in the helmet thread, no such suggestion was made by any mod.
Tom Stormcrowe
03-23-08, 08:28 PM
Huh? :eek: Where did I say a guideline was broken? Can't I participate in a thread? :eek: I just saw the same points being bounced back and forth and made a suggestion that perhaps a little processing time would clarify what both sides were saying. It wasn't an intervention, just participation.
Tom, have we broken a forum guideline by discussing this? I don't see any guidelines broken. No nastiness or name calling and we are certainly in the appropriate forum to discuss this, yes?
Why would we need intervention from you on how to process this? I find that odd. Or is there a rule against debating? I've seen a ton of that over in the Road Cycling and in my case, in the helmet thread, no such suggestion was made by any mod.
Man those two do love to argue! :D
But it's been pretty interesting, and it does bring up some basic issues about this forum and all forums. A forum is a community. A forum is a group of communities. A forum is a source of information that is well or poorly organized. A forum is a private business that serves the public, or part of the public. A forum is a place where individuals express themselves. People come to a forum for comfort, but sometimes they leave feeling nervous.
There's bound to be a lot of tension and dissension. It's good to talk about it and keep it transparent. I appreciate both merider and SweetLou for their heroic efforts to make the forum better.
Sixty Fiver
03-23-08, 08:31 PM
:roflmao:
Okay, fine, folks, I'll knock it off.
Besides, I'm making myself dizzy debating.
I'm just...um...different. And I'm with Chippy! I want to wrestle in mud nekkid. But that's a whole other thread, debate and tons of complaints. :p
The nekkid mud wrestling happens over in Foo... :)
Can someone sum up the last 100 or so posts for me?
Can someone sum up the last 100 or so posts for me?
Some people would like posts to be posted in the most appropriate area for the topic for easy reference.
Other people want to post things in the regional area, where they know the people.
There was an objection to the SoCal forum in particular that the members there didn't venture out into the rest of the forum.
The counter point was that many of them know each other in real life, and the forum has become a social area. The things that are discussed there are in more of a social context than a reference context.
The counter point to this is that it was clique-ish.
The response was that one person's clique-ishness is another person's hard work at making a strong group.
Got it. Thank you. Looks like someone has taken my advice as well.
Got it. Thank you. Looks like someone has taken my advice as well.
What was that?
East Hill
03-23-08, 09:06 PM
Can we make that cupcakes? Please? :D
My usual offering is macadamia nut shortbread. I have hundreds of satisfied end users for the shortbread, but no one has ever complimented my cupcakes :) *.
East Hill
*Mr. East Hill has, but that's in reference to a whole different type of cupcake ;) .
East Hill
03-23-08, 09:17 PM
Wow, I missed all the other posts from this afternoon. Well, it looks as if everyone stayed civil, and I can see points on both sides.
Tell you what I am going to do. I'm going to continue posting wherever I dang well please, and let the chip(com)s fall where they may!
I am such a toughie :D .
East Hill
chipcom
03-23-08, 09:24 PM
What? That is totally false. A group ride or pub is about friends getting together and having fun.Bike Forums is more like a library, where you go to find information. If I want a murder mystery, I go to that section, if I want a book about irrigation systems, I go to that section.
Following your logic, we should get rid of all the forums and only have one big one. Or do you not want certain people on your ride or with you at the pub? You only want your friends with you on that ride? In that case, only regional forums.
See that's the thing, places like the regional forums, Foo and others are more like a pub. That's the beauty of BF - you can have your libations and books all under the same roof. The only problem is that the pub conversations can't also be categorized and indexed for quick reference in the library...which can be solved via technology, not closing down the pubs or the libraries. ;)
merider1
03-23-08, 09:27 PM
Huh? :eek: Where did I say a guideline was broken? Can't I participate in a thread? :eek: I just saw the same points being bounced back and forth and made a suggestion that perhaps a little processing time would clarify what both sides were saying. It wasn't an intervention, just participation.
Sorry, Tom, but since you are a mod, I thought you were telling us to cool it. :o
As for the "arguing" - I must just be the toughest skinned person. I don't feel we are "arguing" or that there is anything tense going on. We disagree and at most, we're debating. Sweet Lou isn't being rude to me and I don't think I am to him other than saying "na-na-nee-na-nah" and refusing to organize a ride for him. :D
merider1
03-23-08, 09:29 PM
Man those two do love to argue! :D
But it's been pretty interesting, and it does bring up some basic issues about this forum and all forums. A forum is a community. A forum is a group of communities. A forum is a source of information that is well or poorly organized. A forum is a private business that serves the public, or part of the public. A forum is a place where individuals express themselves. People come to a forum for comfort, but sometimes they leave feeling nervous.
There's bound to be a lot of tension and dissension. It's good to talk about it and keep it transparent. I appreciate both merider and SweetLou for their heroic efforts to make the forum better.
I'm voting for you to be President. ;)
merider1
03-23-08, 09:30 PM
Some people would like posts to be posted in the most appropriate area for the topic for easy reference.
Other people want to post things in the regional area, where they know the people.
There was an objection to the SoCal forum in particular that the members there didn't venture out into the rest of the forum.
The counter point was that many of them know each other in real life, and the forum has become a social area. The things that are discussed there are in more of a social context than a reference context.
The counter point to this is that it was clique-ish.
The response was that one person's clique-ishness is another person's hard work at making a strong group.
Wow! That was spot on! I take it back. I'm voting for YOU as President. We need a woman in office for sure. :D
merider1
03-23-08, 09:31 PM
*Mr. East Hill has, but that's in reference to a whole different type of cupcake ;) .
You're in trouble. That post belongs in So Cal. You are cross posting.
:p :lol:
chipcom
03-23-08, 09:33 PM
Can someone sum up the last 100 or so posts for me?
I want to hack BF so we can have the ability to psuedo cross-post - having some threads that are in places like Foo or the regional forums also appear as links in some of the applicable genre specific forums. For example, a thread in SoCal about frame building could also be 'seen' in the list of threads in Framebuilders, and take the user to the SoCal thread when clicked. The rest is all white noise....cept for the nekkid mud wrasslin...which is obviously a keeper.
Edit: hack as in modify the source code with permission of the owner, not hack as in crack.
Edit2: Semi-nekkid mud wrasslin is cool too...but nekkid is always preferable.
East Hill
03-23-08, 09:36 PM
You're in trouble. That post belongs in So Cal. You are cross posting.
:p :lol:
Well, I, like Sixty Fiver, have no respect for borders! Especially if they are borders which keep me from enjoying myself here :p .
It's a toss up for Tom or solveg for POTUS, but Roody definitely gets the vice pres vote (even says so in his avatar).
If Tom doesn't get the nod for POTUS, then secretary of state.
Brian gets to be majority speaker of whichever house he likes.
I'll be semi-official greeter, no matter who's in charge!
East Hill
That's not a bad idea. When you post, you could have an option that said, "Link to the following forums:" and then a listing. There would be a thread in each forum which was titled: "May also be of interest to you" and it would be full of titles and linkies.
Good job, Chipcom!
Sixty Fiver
03-23-08, 09:47 PM
Well, I, like Sixty Fiver, have no respect for borders! Especially if they are borders which keep me from enjoying myself here :p .
It's a toss up for Tom or solveg for POTUS, but Roody definitely gets the vice pres vote (even says so in his avatar).
If Tom doesn't get the nod for POTUS, then secretary of state.
Brian gets to be majority speaker of whichever house he likes.
I'll be semi-official greeter, no matter who's in charge!
East Hill
Can I be the shortbread tester ?
chipcom
03-23-08, 09:48 PM
That's not a bad idea. When you post, you could have an option that said, "Link to the following forums:" and then a listing. There would be a thread in each forum which was titled: "May also be of interest to you" and it would be full of titles and linkies.
Good job, Chipcom!
The 'may also be of interest' is a nice touch!
That's not a bad idea. When you post, you could have an option that said, "Link to the following forums:" and then a listing. There would be a thread in each forum which was titled: "May also be of interest to you" and it would be full of titles and linkies.
Good job, Chipcom!
Yes, about time chip had a good idea that doesn't involve mud or pastries. :)
Sometimes I PM somebody when there's a discussion that I think would interest them, knowing that the discussion is taking place in a forum they don't go to. It would be great if the program would make that easier to do.
Brian, do you think this is possible?
East Hill
03-23-08, 09:59 PM
Can I be the shortbread tester ?
You are already one of the hundreds of satisfied end users. Mr. East Hill has to be the quality control tester, though, because he's already in-house.
East Hill
East Hill
03-23-08, 10:01 PM
By the way, I think we're getting some excellent suggestions out of all this! It's turned into a very good thread.
East Hill
SweetLou
03-23-08, 10:04 PM
Here in lies the problem. You view this place as a library or reference book. Other members on here view it for a vast variety of reasons and they don't have to use it as YOU see fit, Lou. I'm defending the value of the regional forums but not suggesting that others do it my way and how I see this forum should be used. Why don't you just ignore the regional forums and go on about your business enjoying the threads you like? :)
But you are doing the same thing. You are saying that your way should be done. Not that everyone should post in a regional forum, but that posting what you want in a regional forum is okay. Why are you saying that since I disagree with you, that I am trying to get people to use the forum my way, yet when you do it, you are only "defending the regional forums"? Your side of the argument is that regional forums should be allowed to post anything they want. My side is that only regional information should be posted there.
I don't ignore the regional forums, like I said, I go to my regional forum often. I enjoy it.
merider1
03-23-08, 10:11 PM
But you are doing the same thing. You are saying that your way should be done. Not that everyone should post in a regional forum, but that posting what you want in a regional forum is okay. Why are you saying that since I disagree with you, that I am trying to get people to use the forum my way, yet when you do it, you are only "defending the regional forums"? Your side of the argument is that regional forums should be allowed to post anything they want. My side is that only regional information should be posted there.
I don't ignore the regional forums, like I said, I go to my regional forum often. I enjoy it.
Well, actually, I'm not asking anyone to do anything, Lou. I'm suggesting that things be left as is. I have never said that you have to go to the regional forums to discuss regional topics nor do I think there is any real benefit in that. You, on the other hand, have said that you feel people should go and post in othre forums for the benefit of all of bikeforums (which is really what we disagree on as I don't see it as a benefit or disadvantage if folks don't do what you suggest they should).
Therefore, no, I'm not doing the same thing you're doing. Nor have I tried to say my view is more noble than yours. You've kind of insinuated that I'm selfish and am not concerned with the forum as a whole. I don't view my not being concerned as selfish, but I also don't care if it's perceived that way. As I keep saying, you can't please everyone all the time. I say let people do as they are doing unless the owners of this forum wish to change it or find some boundary is being crossed or some group is being discriminated against. Until that time, the regional forums are but a few small public forums on here harming no one being just as they currently are.
SweetLou
03-23-08, 10:11 PM
See that's the thing, places like the regional forums, Foo and others are more like a pub. That's the beauty of BF - you can have your libations and books all under the same roof. The only problem is that the pub conversations can't also be categorized and indexed for quick reference in the library...which can be solved via technology, not closing down the pubs or the libraries. ;)Well, why do you say they are more like a pub? Just because you say so? If they are more like a pub, then why the classifications by regions? Why not just a couple of different pub forums, Lou's pub, Missy's pub, etc? That would make more sense. Just like real pubs, you can find one you like and discuss what you like. But since they are divided by regions, I have to argue that they are not pubs, but forums about regional issues.
merider1
03-23-08, 10:15 PM
Oh, and here would be my suggestion. Why don't moderators of the regional forums create an exact thread in another forum with a link to the one in So Cal (like I did for the So Cal orginated Garmin 305 thread over in Road Cycling)? That a way, the thread isn't moved from the region (which is kind of a slap on the wrist to the regional posters), but is made more accessible to the forum the subject might be in if not in the regional section. It takes all of three minutes to do - I know, since I did it recently. :)
merider1
03-23-08, 10:18 PM
Well, why do you say they are more like a pub? Just because you say so? If they are more like a pub, then why the classifications by regions? Why not just a couple of different pub forums, Lou's pub, Missy's pub, etc? That would make more sense. Just like real pubs, you can find one you like and discuss what you like. But since they are divided by regions, I have to argue that they are not pubs, but forums about regional issues.
I see what Chip means, and yes in a sense this whole forum is like a pub - but not really like a library. Can you not see that people come on here for fun and interaction as well as information, Lou? And some don't even care for the info, they just come for the fun! No member has any right to determine how others should and will use this forum as a whole or as sub regions. And that includes you. The owners, however, can choose how they want this forum and I think they did a pretty good job of it even with the cross posting and such (but of course, that isn't an issue to me anyway).
SweetLou
03-23-08, 10:20 PM
Well, actually, I'm not asking anyone to do anything, Lou. I'm suggesting that things be left as is. I have never said that you have to go to the regional forums to discuss regional topics nor do I think there is any real benefit in that. You, on the other hand, have said that you feel people should go and post in othre forums for the benefit of all of bikeforums (which is really what we disagree on as I don't see it as a benefit or disadvantage if folks don't do what you suggest they should).
Therefore, no, I'm not doing the same thing you're doing. Nor have I tried to say my view is more noble than yours. You've kind of insinuated that I'm selfish and am not concerned with the forum as a whole. I don't view my not being concerned as selfish, but I also don't care if it's perceived that way. As I keep saying, you can't please everyone all the time. I say let people do as they are doing unless the owners of this forum wish to change it or find some boundary is being crossed or some group is being discriminated against. Until that time, the regional forums are but a few small public forums on here harming no one being just as they currently are.That makes no sense at all. Because you want things to stay the same, then you are not arguing that one way is better?
For example, the abortion issue. One group wants things to stay the same, with a woman having the right to choose. Another side wants abortion to be illegal. Let's say I am for the woman's right to choose and you want it to be illegal. We debate the issue, but since it is the law and how it is, I am not trying to convince people that my way is the correct way? But you are trying to change how people view the legality of abortion?
Just because something is already done one way or another, doesn't mean you are not trying to convince people that that is the correct way. By being part of the debate, you are trying to show that your way is the correct way.
SweetLou
03-23-08, 10:23 PM
Oh, and here would be my suggestion. Why don't moderators of the regional forums create an exact thread in another forum with a link to the one in So Cal (like I did for the So Cal orginated Garmin 305 thread over in Road Cycling)? That a way, the thread isn't moved from the region (which is kind of a slap on the wrist to the regional posters), but is made more accessible to the forum the subject might be in if not in the regional section. It takes all of three minutes to do - I know, since I did it recently. :)I have no problem with posts in multiple threads, as mentioned earlier in the thread. I actually think it would be a good thing. But, I would do it the opposite way. Have a thread in the proper forum and a link from the regional or better if a thread can appear to be in both. Like how on eBay, you can put up one listing but it appears under many categories.
merider1
03-23-08, 10:27 PM
That makes no sense at all. Because you want things to stay the same, then you are not arguing that one way is better?
Just because something is already done one way or another, doesn't mean you are not trying to convince people that that is the correct way. By being part of the debate, you are trying to show that your way is the correct way.
Lou, now here is where I draw the line. I refuse to argue abortion with you or agree that it's even appropriate to use that as an analogy with respect to this discussion. Bad choice on your part.
No, my wanting things to stay the same is not me trying to tell people how to do something. Do you just selectively ignore points being made? The OWNERS of this forum are the only ones who should be telling people how to operate and they don't throw fits and are not heavy handed (or asking the mods to be) over in the regional forums. There is no need to be as nothing is broken and those forums are open to ALL members.
You can disagree with these points, but please quit ignoring them altogether.
Oh, and I'm not arguing for "my way." I don't own this website.
merider1
03-23-08, 10:30 PM
I have no problem with posts in multiple threads, as mentioned earlier in the thread. I actually think it would be a good thing. But, I would do it the opposite way. Have a thread in the proper forum and a link from the regional or better if a thread can appear to be in both. Like how on eBay, you can put up one listing but it appears under many categories.
Of course you would. ;) But then it becomes policing the topics in the regional forums, something you have no issue with and would like since you envision a library. I see it as policing the regional forums and a negative, whereas the other way works just as well.
Great, now we're back to square one.
Tom Stormcrowe
03-23-08, 11:06 PM
Nope, you should know me well enough by now to know if I was saying cool it, I would have been very plain about it by saying "COOL IT: ;)
I actually like debate. :p
Sorry, Tom, but since you are a mod, I thought you were telling us to cool it. :o
As for the "arguing" - I must just be the toughest skinned person. I don't feel we are "arguing" or that there is anything tense going on. We disagree and at most, we're debating. Sweet Lou isn't being rude to me and I don't think I am to him other than saying "na-na-nee-na-nah" and refusing to organize a ride for him. :D
SweetLou
03-23-08, 11:06 PM
Lou, now here is where I draw the line. I refuse to argue abortion with you or agree that it's even appropriate to use that as an analogy with respect to this discussion. Bad choice on your part.
No, my wanting things to stay the same is not me trying to tell people how to do something. Do you just selectively ignore points being made? The OWNERS of this forum are the only ones who should be telling people how to operate and they don't throw fits and are not heavy handed (or asking the mods to be) over in the regional forums. There is no need to be as nothing is broken and the forums are open to ALL members.
You can disagree with these points, but please quit ignoring them altogether.
Oh, and I'm not arguing for "my way." I don't own this website.I am not arguing abortion, just using an example that just because you don't want things to change doesn't mean you are not trying to convince one way is better than another. I think it is a perfectly good example of how not wanting to change something is an argument for it.
You say only the owners of the forum should tell people how to operate. I agee, but then why is there a Forum Suggestions forum? I think it is there so the owners can get feedback on how to run the forums. I am only doing what they want me to do.
Do I selectively ignore points you've made, I don't think so. I might have missed some or just like a couple of minutes ago, I lost my long post and don't feel like redoing it. Though I think I have made some points that you have not addressed also. But if you think I am ignoring a specific point, let me know and I will tell you what I think about it. To make it simple, please post each point in a different post, because it is getting hard to quote the lenthy posts and remember what one reply was about. I have skipped over a couple of your replies, because I couldn't remember what the reply was about. Sorry.
merider1
03-24-08, 08:29 AM
Okay, a good buddy (someone I really respect) gave the advice to seriously cool it on this one. I've made my point (repeatedly) and had my say. I appreciate that this was an open discussion and, again, while I'm barking, I'm wagging my tail, folks! You just can't see it. :p
I hope all of you keep on enjoying the forums! :)
East Hill
03-24-08, 09:24 AM
My contribution:
Macadamia Nut Shortbread
6 ounces of white flour
4 ounces of butter (unsalted sweet)
2 ounces of sugar
2 ounces finely chopped macadamia nuts
I usually soften the butter in the microwave. Squish all ingredients together (I use a disposable glove) using your hands (the heat from your hands helps meld things together). Toss in two ounces of finely chopped macadamia nuts.
Take dough and flatten out onto sheet of white paper. Shape into a round approximately 6 inches across, and perhaps one half inch thick.
Place dough round and white paper on cooking sheet.
Have oven heated to 350 degrees Fahrenheit.
Cook for approximately one half hour, or until just starting to brown.
Cut round into six wedges.
Let cool.
By the way, the flour and sugar should be weighed out, on a scale. The amount of butter is one stick, so no need to weigh that.
East Hill
I really don't think it would be hard to have a thread appear in multiple forums but still only be one thread, with the listings in the other forums merely being pointers or redirects. Then there would be no headaches for moderators to have to manage multiple threads of the same topic and it would make merging multiple threads more user friendly.
I'm a little worried that chipcom's good idea (the one that didn't involve mud or pastry) will get lost in the heat of an interesting debate.
I for one think this would make BF a lot more useful to users, and also eliminate arguments like the one here. In fact, the mods can already do something very similar to this when they move a thread. They leave a marker (somebody called it a breadcrumb) in the thread's original subforum after they move it. Users who click on the marker are redirected to the thread, wherever it was moved to.
Maybe something similar could be done to redirect members to threads that "may also be of interest to you." Like the brazing thread in SoCal. A breadcrumb could be placed in Framebuilders and C&V so users there could find it, while the thread itself remained in SoCal--which is where the OP evidently wanted it to be.
Besides making the forum more useful for members, a breadcrumb system would also encourage members to visit and post in different subforums. I think this cross-fertilization would be beneficial for the community at large.
If anybody else thinks this is a good idea, I hope you'll chime in. Brian can be pretty tough to convince, but he does want us to be happy. :D
East Hill
03-24-08, 07:54 PM
I'm a little worried that chipcom's good idea (the one that didn't involve mud or pastry) will get lost in the heat of an interesting debate.
I for one think this would make BF a lot more useful to users, and also eliminate arguments like the one here. In fact, the mods can already do something very similar to this when they move a thread. They leave a marker (somebody called it a breadcrumb) in the thread's original subforum after they move it. Users who click on the marker are redirected to the thread, wherever it was moved to.
Maybe something similar could be done to redirect members to threads that "may also be of interest to you." Like the brazing thread in SoCal. A breadcrumb could be placed in Framebuilders and C&V so users there could find it, while the thread itself remained in SoCal--which is where the OP evidently wanted it to be.
It is a good idea, and perhaps it can be implemented?
We have to wait for the big guys/gals to tell us if it's possible though.
Still, my macadamia nut shortbread is exquisite :D .
East Hill
garysol1
03-24-08, 07:59 PM
If anybody else thinks this is a good idea, I hope you'll chime in. Brian can be pretty tough to convince, but he does want us to be happy. :D
I think it is a great idea but I am afraid it could be very time consuming for the mods to be put in charge of that. What I liked about Chip's idea was that the posters themselves could post in the forum they wanted but still leave a bread crum for others to follow. I just wonder if the members would take that extra step. It is pretty obvious to me that certain posters in certain forums really don't give a hoot about anyone else besides the readers in there own little world.
East Hill
03-24-08, 08:06 PM
I think it is a great idea but I am afraid it could be very time consuming for the mods to be put in charge of that. What I liked about Chip's idea was that the posters themselves could post in the forum they wanted but still leave a bread crum for others to follow. I just wonder if the members would take that extra step. It is pretty obvious to me that certain posters in certain forums really don't give a hoot about anyone else besides the readers in there own little world.
Well, I just took a post from the AltBike forum, and crossposted it to the Clydesdales/Athenas forum. I mentioned that I was crossposting, and no one seems to be objecting.
Me, I just like sharing. Not that many people read the AltBike forum, but a lot of people participate in the C/A forum. So, since it was about the tallest man in the world, who had a bike made specially for him, it was a perfect fit in both places.
East Hill
chipcom
03-24-08, 08:44 PM
Well, why do you say they are more like a pub? Just because you say so? If they are more like a pub, then why the classifications by regions? Why not just a couple of different pub forums, Lou's pub, Missy's pub, etc? That would make more sense. Just like real pubs, you can find one you like and discuss what you like. But since they are divided by regions, I have to argue that they are not pubs, but forums about regional issues.
Maybe from experience participating in them? We do have a one big pub...it's called Foo in a place called the Lounge. We also got a lot of little pubs...some are sports bars, like Road Cycling (also been called a locker room at times), others more like the neighborhood bar - the regional forums. You can argue all you want, but the thread topics, conversations and interactions don't support your argument.
Well, I just took a post from the AltBike forum, and crossposted it to the Clydesdales/Athenas forum. I mentioned that I was crossposting, and no one seems to be objecting.
Me, I just like sharing. Not that many people read the AltBike forum, but a lot of people participate in the C/A forum. So, since it was about the tallest man in the world, who had a bike made specially for him, it was a perfect fit in both places.
East Hill
I saw that crosspost and enjoyed it very much, although it probably wasn't as good as your famous hazelnut scones. ;)
But the only problem with crossposting is that it leaves you with two groups of people talking about the same thing. That's OK, it's fun to hang out with people you know, but sometimes it's even better if the two groups get together and form one group to talk about that thing. Mingling is good sometimes, which is why BF is more like a cocktail party--not so much like a pub as other people will tell you. :p
I think the breadcrumb idea chipcom had would be a good way to get more mingling in this place. This thread has been a great case of mingling too, and I've enjoyed that.
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