Singlespeed & Fixed Gear - Reluctantly asking SSFG for ideas on building up this vintage keirin frame

This almost ended up in the track or vintage forum, where it may end up yet, but I always get a kick out of this place. So, have at it. How should I build up this frame; how should I restore/preserve it? I've got some ideas, but what do y'all think I should do on reasonable budget (real reasonable, not NJS-reasonable).

To what extent would you vintage aficionados try to restore or preserve this? I'm looking for must-do suggestions, like stopping that corrosion around the headset, and anything else. I'm entertaining the idea of giving it a thin clearcoat--neither glossy nor matte but as clear as possible--to protect what's left of the decal and stickers. I don't mind the chips as touch-ups look lousy on a paintjob that can't be matched.

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p254/keirinculture/katakuarsilkjuly26/ksjuly251.jpg
http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p254/keirinculture/katakuarsilkjuly26/ks13.jpg
http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p254/keirinculture/katakuarsilkjuly26/ks9.jpg
http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p254/keirinculture/katakuarsilkjuly26/ks7.jpg

One day, I'll consider restoring the paintjob/decal as accurately as possible.

Full album here. I hope keirinculture will leave it up:
http://s130.photobucket.com/albums/p254/keirinculture/katakuarsilkjuly26/

do NJS realistic budget

Just build it up proper full NJS already. It's not that expensive. Wheelset should run 300.

Get some frame saver inside it to prevent rust. I'd say gradually build it up with period correct njs stuff as you can afford it. It'll take much longer and be more expensive, but that frame needs it.

i vote do it. id like to see that frame completed!

what is that sticking out of the downtube?

That stripe decal is dangling.

I came off a little cheaper than I meant. This will be a majority-NJS build, or at least 50%, to start and I plan on improving it gradually.

NJS realistic is possible, minus a couple corners cut for the time being: wheelset and maybe the cranks. They're not gonna be cheapies, but probably not NJS unless the eBay gods are with me.

The biggest cut corner may be the hubs--Novatecs for $120? I'm not keen on coldsetting from 110 to 120mm and filing 2mm out of the fork and track ends, and currently available 110mm hubs are $$$. I don't obsess over hubs, so it's no big deal for me to lose selection there--and wait till I can afford something ridiculously nice.

oh, hot damn. vintage dura ace njs, of course!

Dude I can get Dura Ace to Araya Red wheels full set for $300, are you trying to go tubular or clincher? You're not going to find a better deal than that or the Dura Ace to Open Pro if you're trying to do clincher that's just over $300. $120 hubs + $30-40 a wheel labor + rims + spokes = why bother with hubs that aren't DA in the first place?

Framesaver it now and start scouring ebay for vintage Suntour parts.

Clinchers. Dura Ace to Open Pro was exactly what I was thinking if I can sell what I need to. I suppose DA makes sense in that it would be less than smart to lace Open Pro's to Novatec's that would be replaced in time anyway.

I was also hoping I could find something appropriate to the frame at 24-28h, but that's not so important. And I like low-flange but again prefer something that fits the frame's age.

Hrm, I wish I could trade my last build straight-up for a track gruppo, instead of losing $ in shipping costs from a series of trades and purchases. I'll post a link to the FT thread where I'll probably be pitching for such a trade soon.

Personally I'd look for some older campy/mavic dark anodized clinchers. Gunna be a ***** but would look awesome.

Dura Ace to Open Pro
Vintage Sugino Super Mightys
Whatever chain
Whatever pedals
Sugino 75 seat post, or old Dura Ace/Suntour
Whatever seat you like, Selle Italia Turbo style
Nitto stem/bars
Champ grips or cotton tape

Real build.

Nice suggestions. I don't know if I'll be able to sleep if I start imagining what that build would be like. Part of my reluctance to post was from the danger of being convinced to spend more than I planned. Actually, I kind of hoped that would happen.

I like the Super Mighty's or anything of that style. Dura Ace vintage cranks are nice, too (just looked em up). If I go this route, it may end up being whatever appears first.

For bars, I'm definately doing cotton tape. No shellac. I plan on two different bars for this thing: some narrow, old track drops and some bullhorn (love em to death for the road). I like the way dh's Nagasawa looks with the chopped track drops as 'horns, so I may do that instead of Nitto RBs.

First of all I think this is pre NJS and maybe even pre BIA when there really wasn't any special stamp needed. I would personally go for BIA stamped cranks/seatpost and hubs.

Dude that's pretty rare, he probably wouldn't get his build off the ground until this time next year if he painstakingly hunted down every part to be BIA...

Repolish that chrome...

I disagree...go period-esque and ride it. Clinchers that have been powdercoated will mimic the look of hard ano'd tubies, don't sweat the details as much. DA hubs are a safe bet but the rest can be come or go. I'd run a simple open pro/DA clincher set pc'd dark gray, some vintage Sugino/DA cranks (Buy road versions cheap and file off the inner ring stops), some classic Nitto stand-by parts like the pearl stem/b123's etc...bikes are made to be ridden IMO. Put parts on that will have the look but don't go broke.

oh, hot damn. vintage dura ace njs, of course!

1000+

But damn, you need this:
http://imagehost.vendio.com/bin/imageserver.x/00000000/benscycle/.mids/Nitto55Racing3.jpg

Bit pricy, though (http://cgi.ebay.de/NITTO-BIA-Racing-Track-Bike-Stem-55mm-Length-NOS_W0QQitemZ370032948444QQihZ024QQcategoryZ27951QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem).

Older DA hubs would be nice. I have conversion kits to 110 for $50 if you want to go that way.
Nitto high crown stem with the cheaper steel b123 drops.
mks sylvan track silver pedals are cheap and look pretty similar to old campys. mks steel clips are cheap too.
maybe road cranks. You do not need to grind the tabs, necessarily. I often run Campy strada road cranks with no problems.
I also have a cheap Fujita brown suede saddle/sugino fluted seat post combo....

no...filing the ring stops just cleans them up and makes them LOOK like pistas...it totally isn't needed.

How old is that frame? It's beautiful. I'm thinking it would be damn near impossible to do a "period correct" looking build with NJS stamped parts. If you really want it to look period correct, 36 spoke tubies are the way to go, but If you're going for function over fashion, that's yet another reason not to worry about an NJS stamp. The stamp will cost you extra $ for no benefit, and it won't even be period correct. Get an NJS lockring if it makes you feel better.

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p254/keirinculture/katakuarsilkjuly26/ks16.jpg

Look like it reads "NJS", no? It also looks upside-down (from the shape of the "crest"), but that way it kind of reads "STU". Do I have a classic STU frame? Either way, it's not BIA, or is it?

On the question of how old this is, I'd really like to know. I'm guessing ~30 yrs.

----------

parkerlewis, I may take you up on that conversion kit. Is $50 for both hubs? And does this kit work with any 120mm NJS hub? Your other suggestions are damned good, too.

I've got an old Sugino road crankset, Super Mightys, I think. I hope to sell them with the bike they're on, but if I part it out they may stay. If they give good chainline on this frame with the ring in the outer position, I could use them for the time being. Gotta get a green dustcap :).

Thanks for the good ideas. They've cleared up my choices and urged me, like I kind of wanted, to not skimp on the build.

parkerlewis, I may take you up on that conversion kit. Is $50 for both hubs? And does this kit work with any 120mm NJS hub? Your other suggestions are damned good, too.

I've got an old Sugino road crankset, Super Mightys, I think. I hope to sell them with the bike they're on, but if I part it out they may stay. If they give good chainline on this frame with the ring in the outer position, I could use them for the time being. Gotta get a green dustcap :).

Thanks for the good ideas. They've cleared up my choices and urged me, like I kind of wanted, to not skimp on the build.

the conversion kit is ONLY for the rear. it will include the 8mm slotted axle the 110mm spaced cones and nuts. the front hub won't change.

imho u should* be able to find a 110mm wheelset if u look on the right boards and what not. it's just a matter of time. i found both of my 110mm wheelsets that way and didn't spend an arm and a leg for them.

This guy seems to have some nice older stuff, including old DA hubs...

http://njs-keirin.blogspot.com/2007/11/hubs.html

Dura Ace to Open Pro
Vintage Sugino Super Mightys
Whatever chain
Whatever pedals
Sugino 75 seat post, or old Dura Ace/Suntour
Whatever seat you like, Selle Italia Turbo style
Nitto stem/bars
Champ grips or cotton tape

Real build.

I would go with araya 1W rims myself and look for some vintage suntour hubs over dura ace.
be patient
wait for the right hubs to come up on ebay.... oh **** araya 1W don't come in 36 hole.
but look so hot!
the fork is pure sex!

do it with all italian carbon and truvative cranks.

anything old and japanese
vintage suntour, sakae, shimano, sugino...

i'm really, really excited to see how this build comes out. older japanese components that look like older italian component knockoffs FTW!

needs more aerospoke lol j/k

That is a really cool frame hope it turns out how you want it to.

sp00ki, yooz so predictable.

I'm also really excited about this. Also, we've got at least another month of 18 types of precipitation here, so it's completion should more or less coincide with the arrival of good riding weather.


This guy seems to have some nice older stuff, including old DA hubs...

http://njs-keirin.blogspot.com/2007/11/hubs.html

Thanks. I happened to find that last night. I was blown away and finally saw that all the other njs-something.blogspot stores were more or less bowing down to this one. I'm glad I didn't see it earlier because their decent prices on newer keirin frames may've won me over. I'm glad I got a beat up vintage keirin frame instead. No dents though, unlike so many of those nearly new frames.

They actually have a rear BIA hub, but it's spaced at 120mm and this frame doesn't seem to be BIA. Does anyone recognize that BB stamp?

I have an old Nitto track stem that looks to be the same vintage. PM me if you want details.

Checking in with my BFSSFG parents on a couple items:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=330220143578
> What are these? Blue-ano'd? And Super Maxy? Are these uncommon? Are they somehow lower-end?

Anyway, I'll probably avoid that rough-looking crankset, but I'm about to jump on these old Dura Ace cranks. $160. I should bargain down, but I'm not really sure what a fair price is.


http://images.craigslist.org/011500010203011605200803180fdbdff38a7df095fa005f8c.jpg


It looks like I'll be getting the stem, bars, saddle, cog and bars from njs-keirin.blogspot's used batches. May as well fill up the basket for the shipping cost. I'd get my seatpost there too, but I'm looking for a 26.8 priced around the same as the boatload of used 27.2 NJS posts out there. Fluted would rock my socks.

About their used stock, how unadvisable is it to get one of their chains "used in 3-4 races"? Shaving off $20 here and there will go a long way to not cheaping out on the main components.

Checking in with my BFSSFG parents on a couple items:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=330220143578
> What are these? Blue-ano'd? And Super Maxy? Are these uncommon? Are they somehow lower-end?

Anyway, I'll probably avoid that rough-looking crankset, but I'm about to jump on these old Dura Ace cranks. $160. I should bargain down, but I'm not really sure what a fair price is.


http://images.craigslist.org/011500010203011605200803180fdbdff38a7df095fa005f8c.jpg


It looks like I'll be getting the stem, bars, saddle, cog and bars from njs-keirin.blogspot's used batches. May as well fill up the basket for the shipping cost. I'd get my seatpost there too, but I'm looking for a 26.8 priced around the same as the boatload of used 27.2 NJS posts out there. Fluted would rock my socks.

About their used stock, how unadvisable is it to get one of their chains "used in 3-4 races"? Shaving off $20 here and there will go a long way to not cheaping out on the main components.
Used chains are a bad way to save money. I would trust a new, non-NJS chain much more than I would trust a used NJS chain, no matter how good it was new unless I could actually hold it in my hands and measure the chain wear (like that (http://pardo.net/bike/pic/fail-004/000.html)), and even then, only if it was coming from a friend or someone I knew I could trust.

those Maxy's are cool. I have seen a few around that looked more, em, normal. I think they were just a road crank, but I could be wrong. Those look like they need a pretty odd chainring tho.

Those DA's above look pretty rough for $160. I'd hold out.

I personally wouldn't want to buy a used chain (or cog, esp when DA are so cheap). HKKVertex here are less than $30....you gotta be able to find someone offering them cheaper.... Even ordering stuff directly from Kalavinka might not be a bad idea.

It is unbelievable what people want for well-worn parts, but there seem to be enough no-questions-asked buyers that it can be hard to talk the price down.

I agree about the chain; I was just hoping for a "sure, go for it, there's no problem" reply against my best judgment.

So, I'm gonna be in NY tomorrow and next Sunday and I'll stop by the bike shops for no reason in particular, but which spots do you NY folks suggest for the best chance of finding some old NJS parts (not talking about shiny NOS parts sitting like trophies in a glass case with consecutive 0's on the tag)?

Time to find some rims. I was set on Open Pro's, but this wheelset is going to top $450 if I don't find something cheaper--OP's are $70-80 +tax at my LBS. So, I found a bunch of NOS rims on eBay and was wondering what the hive mind here thinks of them (as I know nothing about old rims and specific models):

http://cgi.ebay.com/SUPER-CHAMPION-MIXTE-Tubular-Clincher-RIMS-36h-NOS_W0QQitemZ360040299588QQihZ023QQcategoryZ56197
http://cgi.ebay.com/FIR-EL20-CLINCHER-RIMS-36-HOLES-NEW_W0QQitemZ280214469080

Should I avoid these? The objective here is to save a bit over the Open Pro's and get a rim that looks a little different/better in the process without buying crap. NOS: sure. POS: nein.

---------

As for the rest of the build, cranks are on the way (NOS Sakae; some Super Mighty's from a BF'er slipped my grasp) and I'm zoning in on the hubs (a Sunshine BIA hubset for $250 vs. some cheaper non-keirin options like Zeus).

I'm still waiting to find a nice vintage stem and saddle.

The rest (seatpost, b123 bars, pedals, clips, cog) is just a matter of deciding where I'll order from.

don't cheap out. if you're building this bike up nicely, it's likely you're going to have it for a long time-- build it up right, no compromises.

So those NOS rims are all compromises? If anyone knows how Open Pro's compare to Nisi Mixer, Super Champion Mixte, Galli or Fir EL20 rims, let me know. The latter look better and cost much less, so as long as one set is reputable, I'm going that route.

I hear you when it comes to things like the hubs; I'm about to pull the trigger on the Sunshine BIA set. I still don't know what the stamp on my frame reads (keirinculture said NJS, but it looks like something else, maybe an older/illegible NJS stamp), so besides my distaste for matching every single component, I can't be hellbent on all BIA or NJS.

As far as some things go, like seatpost and cog, I will definately "compromise" if it means getting a non-NJS part of equal quality and appearance for big savings. For example, $68 for a used 26.8 seatpost is the best I've found in the rabid used-NJS marketplace; if I go SR Royal, I can find one for $15. But I won't compromise on much more than that.

The biggest cut corner may be the hubs--Novatecs for $120? I'm not keen on coldsetting from 110 to 120mm and filing 2mm out of the fork and track ends

http://cgi.ebay.com/Shimano-Dura-Ace-HB-7600-REAR-hub-36H-TRACK-DOUBLE-8mm_W0QQitemZ280209221992QQihZ018QQcategoryZ36144QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1742.m153.l1262

A set of Dura Ace track hubs wouldn't be that much more expensive.....A 110mm rear for $95 and the Front for $79.

the conversion kit is ONLY for the rear. it will include the 8mm slotted axle the 110mm spaced cones and nuts. the front hub won't change.

imho u should* be able to find a 110mm wheelset if u look on the right boards and what not. it's just a matter of time. i found both of my 110mm wheelsets that way and didn't spend an arm and a leg for them.

what boards exactly, I'm also looking.

A set of Dura Ace track hubs wouldn't be that much more expensive.....A 110mm rear for $95 and the Front for $79.

Thanks. That's a pretty good price considering most sellers have a mark-up on 110/8mm hubs vs. their 120 equivalents. But I'm likely going for a set of vintage Sunshine hubs (BIA approved) for $250. I'm willing to spend $75 more in that department.

The next order I place needs to be for rims, whether it's one of those eBay sets or Open Pro's ordered locally. Here is where I can save almost $100, while getting something more fitting and (maybe) just as good as some new Open Pro's.

BIA

Pre NJS certification association?

Thanks. That's a pretty good price considering most sellers have a mark-up on 110/8mm hubs vs. their 120 equivalents. But I'm likely going for a set of vintage Sunshine hubs (BIA approved) for $250. I'm willing to spend $75 more in that department.

The next order I place needs to be for rims, whether it's one of those eBay sets or Open Pro's ordered locally. Here is where I can save almost $100, while getting something more fitting and (maybe) just as good as some new Open Pro's.

On the other hand, Open Pros are pretty sweet...

Powdercoat / Arrospok / Deep V / Oury - skid.

This groupset?

This groupset?

Aaannnd Spooge

Hope you don't mind if I...oh, ohhhh....nevermind.

Here's the crankset. Sugino's and DA's have more sex, but these are hardly used so not a bad find. It comes with matching BB; not sure if I'll use that over my current Shimano BB--ISO vs. JIS, perhaps?

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s228/Macaframa187/Cranks/100_0915.jpg

I'm running out of visible tabs in my browser for this build. It's come to the point where I've got to "work" on reducing those tabs before I get to actual work.

Having the frame sitting next to me on the desk doesn't help. Putting my computer and greasemonkey desks end-to-end has just made my keyboard greasy and my wrenchwork clumsy.

] You're not going to find a better deal than that or the Dura Ace to Open Pro if you're trying to do clincher that's just over $300.

so ive been looking near and far for a deal like this lately, and ive only been able to find the now discontinued ebay wheelset for sale. ive emailed them about availability just in case they have a few sets left over, but no response yet (two days ago). know of any online sellers of these wheels for the same price?

i think this was mostly campy nos stuff. it looked pretty nice.

Hello!! This is Tomity from Tokyo Japan
I write the thing that I know this frame.

51-2(back of B.B.) stamps are dates of production of the frame.
51 (Showa)means 1976 at the Christian era by a Japanese original name of an era.
2 means February
1976/February
This frame is produced by 1976/February

Stamp of "STU"
This is a sign of SILK.
Please compare it to the head badge of your frame.
As for them, the thing that very looks like is sure to be understood.
I do not think that there is still clearly a stamp of NJS in the frame in this age.

Please look at the stickers pasted to seat tube of the frame.
These stickers are the passing certificates of the bike inspection of the race.

An upper sticker is an inspection certificate of Inter-high school competition in 1977/08/03-06(Okayama pref.).
http://s130.photobucket.com/albums/p254/keirinculture/katakuarsilkjuly26/?action=view&current=ks5.jpg

The lower side sticker is an inspection certificate of Inter-high school competition in 1976/08/05-08(Nagano pref.).
A red mark is a symbol of Inter-high school competition.

I do not think that this frame is used from this for Keirin race(for amateur rider use).
KATAKURA SILK closed 15~20 years ago,Therefore, the frame is not being made now.

The company of KATAKURA SILK was a cotton mill in the first stage. SILK is the meaning in this reason.


Standard part composition of Keirin bike in this age is the following.

crank:SUGINO MIGHTY (BIA stamped,PCD151mm) 165mm,168mm,171mm ,1st aged SHIMANO Dura Ace(PCD 151mm)

pedals:MIKASHIMA,KYOKUTO Pro-Ace
hubs:SHIMANO 1st aged Dura Ace,SANSHINE,SANKO-SHA(36H)
rins:ARAYA gold or red label model,UKAI(36H)
bar:NITTO steel or alloy
stem:NITTO steel or alloy (jussik posted one)
saddle:FUJITA leather type,AIR-LITE

I have KATAKURA SILK bike
http://www.fixedgeargallery.com/2004/f/tomity.htm

Let's me know details that you obtained this frame.
Best regards

Tomity