Singlespeed & Fixed Gear - Fixed and Knee Physiology - How to not be a cripple.

Hey,

Can anyone speak with authority on riding fixed and knee wear/damage. Specifically, it would be great if:
1. Folks could share particularly things they did or did not do on a fixed that led to problems with their knees. That way we could all... umm... not do that.
2. Someone with some sort of background greater than their mother's sister's cousin's roomate's nephew's neighbor was a nurse in Vietnam speak on things you can do to strengthen and protect your knees.

I'm 27 going on 28 - I hate hate hate my body getting old because I don't want to do old people stuff - I'll do whatever it takes now so I can still ride in my 50s and 60s.

Peace to you.

RAN

In order of importance:
Make sure your bike fits you.
Choose an appropriate gear
Use a brake.

Hey,

Can anyone speak with authority on riding fixed and knee wear/damage. Specifically, it would be great if:
1. Folks could share particularly things they did or did not do on a fixed that led to problems with their knees. That way we could all... umm... not do that.
2. Someone with some sort of background greater than their mother's sister's cousin's roomate's nephew's neighbor was a nurse in Vietnam speak on things you can do to strengthen and protect your knees.

I'm 27 going on 28 - I hate hate hate my body getting old because I don't want to do old people stuff - I'll do whatever it takes now so I can still ride in my 50s and 60s.

Peace to you.

RAN

Riding fixed is really not much different than not coasting on a road bike unless you start riding brakeless - that's one good thing to avoid. The other would be to choose non eddy merckx hour record type gearing.

I've mostly anecdotal evidence that running brakeless on the street will mess you up, much like everyone else on here.

I've got a friend back home who can hardly ride anymore, geared or fixed, because his knees are all messed-up. He's definitely willing to admit that running brakeless has probably played a big part.

http://sheldonbrown.com/fixed-knees.html

Fixed Gears and Knee Health

By Charles Renner

How I came to ride a fixed gear.


Knee problems (http://sheldonbrown.com/pain.html#knees) (chondro-malacia patella) caused me to pretty much stop riding. This was hard. I do not like to drive and did not own a car until I was 25; this was a big hit. I bought a house 3 miles from work ? I figured that even dead I should be able to pedal that distance. My doctor mentioned surgery but said something to the effect of "lots of people will want to operate, but if you can get along with it as it is, let it be. The surgery can only be done really well once, and the later you do it, generally, the better off you are". Two years later the house up the street was sold. I met my new neighbor, who did a several things for me that got me back on the bike. I have been able to avoid the surgery and my knees seem to be holding up well.
The first thing he did was ride with me. Turns out he used to race and coach. He felt like I still had some go in me. We did a 25-mile ride (I was in pain by the end) and told him so.
He smiled and said "Kid, come by the house next week".
1. He reset my bike to the proper size. - Handle bar location, etc. For people with knee damage, it is frequently better to have the seat a little higher than normal. This causes the maximum knee flex angle to be less, which sometimes helps.
2. Insisted that I go to clipless pedals (http://sheldonbrown.com/gloss_cl.html#clipless) and have what was called a "Fit-Kit (http://sheldonbrown.com/gloss_e-f.html#fitkit) " done to align the pedal cleats (http://sheldonbrown.com/gloss_cl.html#cleat) to the shoes. This was just when clipless pedals came out (late 80s). They did not have float and were very expensive. Of course, the alternative was the surgeon's knife; the pedals looked pretty cheap in that context. The idea behind cleat to shoe alignment is to have your foot / leg / hip in their natural position when on the bike. My right foot is pronated, so that is normal for me? The Fit-Kit was one method to measure this alignment. This was critically important when SPD pedals (http://sheldonbrown.com/gloss_sp-ss.html#spd) first came out because they had no float. Today, it is probably not as critical, as most clipless pedals have a lot of float, with the speedplay having the most.
After properly fitting me to my bike / pedals, my neighbor looked at me and smiled. "Kid, come by the house next week".
The next week he had two identical mountain bikes. He said let's race. I looked at him like he was crazy. My knees hurt, but I was 10 years younger and in better shape.
He insisted, I agreed, and then he laid down the rules: Put the bike in the lowest gear and leave it there. You are not to shift gears. Good luck.
It was only a short climb, but he knew I did not have chance. He was waiting for me at the top of the hill. Blew past me doing all of 5 mph. I have never seen anyone spin the pedals as fast as this guy.
He waited for me to catch my breath. He certainly was not breathing hard. "Look kid - if you want to win, you got to spin. Come by the house next week".
The next week he put on his fixed gear (http://sheldonbrown.com/fixed) to teach me how to spin. To learn how to spin, a fixed gear bike is usually used. Almost all serious bicycle racers spend some time on a fixed gear. A fixed gear is like a track bike, no gears, no freewheel (no coasting - ever!!), no brakes, and paid up life insurance policy. The biggest difference between a fixed gear bike and a track bike is the gear ratios. Most track bikes are in the 52/13 range. They are built for pure speed. Fixed gears for street use are generally much lower. I am running 38/18 on mine (moving to 42/17). This is a low enough gear to keep from putting too much pressure on the bearing surfaces of the knees when starting off from a stoplight and for maintaining control going downhill. The other difference is most people put a front brake on them for emergency use. I have one on mine.


(That's a VERY low gear for fixed-gear use! --Sheldon Brown) My neighbor had researched bike knee injuries, and found that they were never noted until the safety bike (http://sheldonbrown.com/gloss_sa-o.html#safety) emerged. The safety bike was the first bike that coasted and that had both the front and rear wheels the same size. The ordinary bikes of the time, "Penny-Farthngs (http://sheldonbrown.com/gloss_p.html#pennyfarthing)" (large front tire, small back tire) had a direct drive, like a tricycle. You used your legs to stop the pedals from turning. It can be done. It is HARD at first. His theory was that this built up the opposite muscles around the knee, and that it was muscles that help hold the knee (patella) in proper alignment. My physical therapist friends have mentioned that the idea is plausible. Some runners will run backwards to try and accomplish the same thing. You can read about spinning (http://sheldonbrown.com/gloss_sp-ss.html#spinning) , but I'll give a quick mechanical example:
Light turns green. Rider A is in his highest gear. He VERY slows mash down on the pedals trying to get the bike to move. Every pound of force pushed down on the pedal is going through the bearing surfaces of his knee. That is a lot of unnecessary stress on the knee. This is what caused my knee problems in the first place.
Contrast: Light turns green. Rider B is in his lowest gear. He VERY easily spins the pedals - the pedals are moving fast, but the FORCE on the pedal is LOW. The force through his knee is LOW. He shifts the gears as he picks up speed. Rider A is way behind him.
I see this everyday - people standing up and mashing down on the pedals. You'll do this a little with a fixed gear too (can't shift) but you'll learn to start easy. You do not start your car off in 5th gear. You start in 1st and then shift. They put a transmission in cars for reason. If you shift too early, you'll actually hurt your engine. Given a choice between two gears to go up a hill, you'll get better gas mileage and longer engine life in the lower gear. The same is true for your knees on a bike. People get macho and say they are not going to shift going up a hill. Not a great idea in terms of how long it will take to get to the top of the hill or the stress that will be put on the knee. If you got'em (gears), use them. If you don't, then you are on a fixed gear and hopefully you have the gearing set to your ability.
To read more about fixed gear bicycles:


http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/fixed.html Particularly:


http://sheldonbrown.com/fixed.html
A few warnings:


Make sure your feet are firmly attached to the pedals!!! If your foot falls off, the pedal will come around and hit the back of your ankle. Not good. - No shoe laces and no loose clothing. If ANYTHING gets caught in the chain, you will most likely pedal your head into the pavement. Frequently fatal. It is almost guaranteed that you will go down. I have never had it happen. Helmets anyone?

Pedal strike on the corners. I have found this not to be a big deal, but courtesy of rollers I have scary good balance. For someone not used to it, hitting the pedal can be pretty disconcerting. Shorter crank arms are probably a good idea ? they give more pedal to road clearance and they are a better for spinning.
Most people find that running is more physically demanding than bike riding. I agree, until you get on a fixed gear bike. On a fixed gear bike, you pedal up the hill, and work hard. You have no choice. On the downhill, you don't get to relax at all. You are still working. It is pretty brutal. Start out on flat land and do some slow upper and downers (speed up slowly, slow down slowly, without using the brake). Go slowly or you are very likely to be sore the next day. Spinning is good fun, and it is what has allowed me to return to cycling to the point where I can pedal thousands of miles with ~50 pounds of gear on the bike. My knees take the load up and down the mountains without complaint thanks to my neighbor and the things that he did for me.

-- Charles Renner Folsom, Ca.

also, I was starting to feel like I had bad knees (after climbing mountains/going for long bike rides, they'd hurt and I felt like they were falling apart). I switched my ratio over to 42x17 and while this may make me look like a bit of a dork comparatively, my knees are GOLDEN now, I go for hikes and no longer have any knee problems afterwards, so it's possible that this is actually strengthening the muscles around the knee (as the article suggests). I've also gotten really good at spinning (I live in a hilly area) and my legs move sooo fast and smoothly now compared to when I first switched over to the low gear.

that's some good info brett,
i'm starting to learn to check Sheldon's site, RIP, before asking anything
i'm in a rolling hills area myself - do you ever feel limited on the downhills?
what was your ratio before you shortened it?

that's interesting because the whole balance out the opposing muscle idea comes up in a lot of other bike areas - you know, work your abs because your lower back gets stressed, work your core so your quads don't pull your hips down - i just haven't heard it too much in regards to knees

I don't have a lot of experience with joint health, but if your really concerned...

I have gone to see a osteopath for pain in my knee with great results. They can pin point where problems are, give you advice and some exercises to help the joint.

Most of the time knee/hip problems begin because of the feet or one leg being shorter than the other, which is the case for 90% of people.

A podiatrist can also be a great starting point. Orthotics are great!

In order of importance:
Make sure your bike fits you.
Choose an appropriate gear
Use a brake.

Truth.

To the OP - 27 going on 28 is nothing. That's the age were the greats started becoming great. ****, there are guys in the pro peleton who didn't start competing until their mid-20s.

Truth.

To the OP - 27 going on 28 is nothing. That's the age were the greats started becoming great. ****, there are guys in the pro peleton who didn't start competing until their mid-20s.

Maybe second and third-tier domestic pros, who get a free bike and some travel expenses and race fees covered, started riding in their 20s after a collegiate career of rowing, cross-country, etc. However, for most of those guys racing for the big-time pro teams over in Europe, they've been riding and racing bikes since they were in their early teens,

I'm 45, and have no knee problems at all. I skied professionally for several years as well, and was taught how to work out properly by an ex national ski team member. Any activity (skiing, cycling, etc.) will build up strength in certain muscles preferentially to others. This has the effect of pulling the knee joint out of alignment eventually due to a strength imbalance across the joint. The best way to preserve your knees well into your senior years is to build the joint strength equally by working out properly.

In order of importance:
Make sure your bike fits you.
Choose an appropriate gear
Use a brake.

qft.


again.

[edit: for the record, i'm 26 going on 27.]

if you have patella pain, a great way to relieve it to some degree by building up muscle (which takes the stress off of the knee itself) is to flex your thigh muscles whenever your just sitting. watching a movie? sitting at an office? the bar? spend the whole time flexing (tensing and releasing slowly is another way to describe i guess) your thigh muscles. it will work wonders for you by taking the stress off the knee and to the muscles.

this is where most knee (patella) injuries come from. tough guys (like me) who push it too hard on weak muscles and the bone starts to scrape against the cartiledge.

if you have patella pain, a great way to relieve it to some degree by building up muscle (which takes the stress off of the knee itself) is to flex your thigh muscles whenever your just sitting. watching a movie? sitting at an office? the bar? spend the whole time flexing (tensing and releasing slowly is another way to describe i guess) your thigh muscles. it will work wonders for you by taking the stress off the knee and to the muscles.

this is where most knee (patella) injuries come from. tough guys (like me) who push it too hard on weak muscles and the bone starts to scrape against the cartiledge.


ive heard of this. i also heard to fold your leg and sit on so the knee is the furthest part away from you. i dont know if this works so i would start sitting on my legs

wouldn't****

I rock a low gear everywhere but the velodrome. I've been riding fixed since 86 and my 34 year old knees (with OSD in the right one) are golden.

WTF is the point of a big gear on the street? Most track coaches will tell you leg speed equals bike speed more than anything else. Learn to spin at 120 plus and watch your bike speed go through the roof.

I geared up to 77 gear inches the other day, poor choice, I definately felt it in the knees after a long ish ride. Now I cant get the lockring off and am bummin hard for the moment.
Keep it low, I like it below 70 gear inches.

Trackstand sparingly.

I'm only 20, but my knees used to hurt after long rides on my road bike. When I built up a fixed conversion last year, I chose a very low gear (32x13, 65") because I didn't know that people usually pushed higher gears. Ever since I've been riding fixed, my knees haven't bothered me. Because my spinning has improved, I can push lower gears at higher cadences on my geared road bike for longer stretches, improving my stamina and knee health, I'm fairly certain.

Of course, I'm not a doctor, so this could all be incorrect, as we all know that correlation does not necessarily equal causation.

I'm only 20, but my knees used to hurt after long rides on my road bike. When I switched over to fixed last year, I chose a very low gear (32x13, 65") because I didn't know any better. Ever since I've been riding fixed, my knees haven't bothered me. Because my spinning has improved, I can push lower gears at higher cadences on my road bike for longer stretches, improving my stamina and knee health.

Of course, I'm not a doctor, so this could all be incorrect, as we all know that correlation does not necessarily equal causation.

I run a 66 or 67 gear inch ratio (44x17) normally and have a similar experience.

Glucosamine Sulfate helps too. But it's a bandaid treatment - it'll relieve pain and kill inflamation, but if bike fit and technique are off, things are going to go wrong.

Oh yeah, about technique. No one has mentioned it yet. I've heard that keeping a flat foot throughout the stroke results in less stress to the knees. Either way, that's the proper method that every coach will tell you to pedal, so do it. Avoiding hard backpedaling... yeah, riding a brake will help a lot too.

I find that the more of these things that are present, the more crucial proper fit is:
-brakeless
-high gearing (76+ GI)
-regular hill riding
-regularly doing long rides (above 20 miles)

Seat should be just high enough that you don't rock your hips but can still keep a flat foot throughout the stroke. If the knees ache really bad and you feel it just sitting down or walking, take atleast a week off the bike. I had to do exactly that a few weeks ago because I was messing around with my fit and not realizing that I was royally screwing things up.

Oh yeah, cleat position on clipless pedals is crucial.

this is where most knee (patella) injuries come from. tough guys (like me) who push it too hard on weak muscles and the bone starts to scrape against the cartiledge.

pretty sure this is exactly what was bothering me a couple weeks ago. i felt like things were rubbing in a way they shouldn't have been. what gym workouts can i do to strengthen the areas that need strengthening besides just flexing?

Oh yeah, cleat position on clipless pedals is crucial.

Ok, I'll take the bait. I've read a lot on bike fit, but recall zip on cleat position. I always just move the cleat to the middle of the adjustment, just behind the balls of my feet usually. But that's completely arbitrary - any pain in my feet has been because I have trouble finding the right size shoe (wider but not wide feed).

I have egg beaters, which to me feel like the have tons of easy free float.

So what do you know about cleat position?

Needs to line up just about spot on with the ball of your foot. May not be the same position for each foot (it's not for me). You'll know it if you ride long rides because your feet will start bothering you if it's off, or maybe only one foot will (happened to me). When things are spot on there shouldn't be any pain in the feet, everything should feel efficient as far as power transfer, and your patella should align to the ball of the foot at the 6 o clock position.

My knees are made of rice krispies.

Seriously though, I'm 31 and my knees are still fine. I've been riding fixed with and without brakes for like 12 years now? And I rode ss mtb for many years also. To keep all your parts running smoothly and healthy on a bike, proper bike fit is crucial. So is stretching. I always stretch out my legs and knees before riding. Kinda all throughout the day really.

i have had knee surgery twice, the first was to replace my completely blow out ACL and my torn in half meniscus, second was to remove part of the meniscus because i re-injured it pretty bad, that being said i rode my fixed at 42-16 for a while and recently switched to a 17, it has definitely helped relieve some of the soreness and knee pain i felt before.

Oh yeah, about technique. No one has mentioned it yet. I've heard that keeping a flat foot throughout the stroke results in less stress to the knees. Either way, that's the proper method that every coach will tell you to pedal, so do it. Avoiding hard backpedaling... yeah, riding a brake will help a lot too.



I've never heard this. By flat foot, you mean pedaling like this?

http://www.perfectcondition.ltd.uk/Articles/Pedalling/LFC%20ideas/pedal_toes_up.gif

I always thought pedaling style was highly individual thing. Personally I find trying to pedal like that (which seem to work for Merckx and Lemond but not Armstrong or Anqeutil) uncomfortable and inefficient.

I've been told it over and over... who knows. Maybe I'm wrong.

uncomfortable and inefficient because you're not used to it, just like high RPM spinning you have to ease into it

I used to pedal with my ankles elevated and my calves were doing like 75% of the work, and I felt MUCH less pressure on the top of my kneecap when I switched to a flat foot style.

uncomfortable and inefficient because you're not used to it, just like high RPM spinning you have to ease into it

Maybe uncomfortable was the wrong word and "not natural" is better. I started out trying to drop my heel during pedaling, and did this for months, because "they say" you should do it. Unfortunately "they" the supreme authority seem put out false information. I do spin higher than lower RPMs, from 100-130rpm. With that in mind, a higher RPM style necessitates a non-heel dropping style in my experience. Your legs are just moving too fast to effectively drop the heel during high rpms, so it's much easier to achieve equal power output throughout the pedaling motion with a toes-down style as so:

http://www.perfectcondition.ltd.uk/Articles/Pedalling/LFC%20ideas/pedal_uphill.gif

I then focussed on changing my pedal style, and found the toes down style required less effort for speed gained compared to heel dropping. I do drop my heel in certain situations, if I need a bit more power in certain stretches. For this it is useful.

If heel dropping was the be all and end all of pedaling, how is it that a lot of riders--pro and amateur--have varied styles? I think the answer is simply personal taste and what feels natural. Unless, of course, "they" say otherwise.

I pretty much pedal like this:

http://www.perfectcondition.ltd.uk/Articles/Pedalling/LFC%20ideas/LFC%20Notes.htm



I used to pedal with my ankles elevated and my calves were doing like 75% of the work, and I felt MUCH less pressure on the top of my kneecap when I switched to a flat foot style.OK, interesting, but I have no problems associated with my pedaling style. Maybe heel dropping is better if you have knee pain, I don't know.

Posistioning helps, as well as everything above.

My right knee used to pop when climbing hills, so after reading the already mentioned article from Sheldon's site, among others, I lowered my saddle height and adjusted my fit.

Now no more knee popping, even on tough climbs. I'm sure conditioning helped out a bit also.

I find that I can get more power into the pedal stroke with flat feet because it allows me to pull back at the 6 to 9 oclock position a bit harder. So I can get it up to a good spinning RPM a lot easier and feel more efficient. I've been really concentrating on flat feet for the last few days and feel better off for it.

My personal story....45 years old, just started riding fixed about 3 years ago, but rode a lot of road bike and mountain bike for years before so I had a very good riding base and had good fit.

But I pretty quickly started to get knee pain, only in my right knee though. At first I thought it was due to all the starts and stops--accelerations on my daily 10 mile commute to work. Began with a 48/17 and a front brake. But the knee really starting acting up when I learned to skip. I then brought the gear ratio down to 46/18. It was getting better, but I still had knee trouble. Finally I converted over to SS with two brakes, same 46/18 and voila, no knee pain any more. What was it then? My guess back pedaling and skipping, and too high of a gear.

A simple thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is base miles. I'm old and have broken my right knee twice. If I start the season off riding hard, I have knee problems. If I start off easy, and/or make sure I have lots of base miles (at least 1000) then I'll have no knee problems for the rest of the year. If you simply ride all year, that's even better.

It's very hilly here and I run a 46x16 with an 18 on the flip flop hub for real mountain climbing. I also use a brake and that really helps my knees on the downhill.

Az

Bad patellar tracking is one big cause of knee pain in all cyclists (sneaky secondary argument: barring overgearing or brakeless riding, very few people who are already strong cyclists will experience any knee pain when switching to fixed, it's the people who didn't ride before or don't have strong legs in the first place that feel it). If you watch somebody with really good form coming straight at you out on a road or bike path, you'll see that their lower legs move in a dead vertical plane, no deviations out to the side. Some people do train themselves into a more aero A-frame pedal stroke where the knee comes in at the top, but you'll never see anyone whose knees go out unless they have bad form or an injury (which they're probably aggravating). You can work on this with a trainer and a mirror, and out on the road you can focus on your kneecap and think about whether you feel it moving in a straight line or pulling side to side.

My left knee has a tendency to track inwards for some odd reason, causing irritation because of improper patellar tracking. My adjusting the cleat so my left toe points more outward, my knee is less likely to go inwards, and less pain! My right knee has no such problems.

My left knee has a tendency to track inwards for some odd reason, causing irritation because of improper patellar tracking. My adjusting the cleat so my left toe points more outward, my knee is less likely to go inwards, and less pain! My right knee has no such problems.

My right knee tracked inwards, causing pain. A Vancouver fit guru guy figured out that this was due to my right hip sitting slightly lower than the left, effectively making that leg longer. On my gurus advice I fixed this problem by removing the insole from my right shoe.

Ive had a bad right knee for the past 5 years from a combo of horrible flexibility and repeated torture from skating and I get hit hard with it sometimes while riding fixed. I worked on not pedaling so flat and also just consciously pedaling with top of my legs/glutes and that seems to keep me from keeping all the pressure on my knees. Slowing down is still another story.

This sounds like the same thing I have.

I'm looking into getting a bike to start straightening my legs to hopefully help my knee.

I want to get a fix gear but I know nothing about them or what I should get.

Can someone give me some pointers..

In order of importance:
Make sure your bike fits you.
Choose an appropriate gear
Use a brake.

Since I have a knee problem already should I stay away from getting a fix gear?

What size bike would fit me?? I'm 5'8 - 140 pounds - 23 years old.

What an appropriate gear for me? (a newbie thats never ridden with a bad knee)

Any help would be awesome!!

thanks

well just for census data

Skateboarded for 3 years
snowboarded for 4 years (still am)
I just started cycling agian, ditched my mtb and bought a fixed gear


Before i started riding a fixed gear I used to have all these knee pains. Kinda felt like growing pains, only happened later in the day. this Summer, before school started, I started riding my mtb around town. I pretty much neglected my bike for a month. Then once i got to school, i got my fixed gear and the pains started going away. Its like use of the muscles to brake are strengthening my knees.

PS. im only 19 now :-P

I have knee problems which is why I got into fixed gear ( I have torn both ACLs, and one LCL) With me, it taught me to not rely on a freewheel and has strengthen my knees considerably. But, for those days where my knees just can't go any further, I have a freewheel on the other side of my hub and just flip it over.

I'm 20, 5'6, 125pds
My gear ratio is 48x18
I use a brake.

I don't limp anymore because of my bike,
So adamwinns, I would recommend getting one, but starting off with an easier gear ratio. An LBS can help you with what appropriate size you should get.

I am by no means an expert on this topic but I can offer some personal experience as an exclusively brakeless cyclist & some logic;

After making sure your bike is set up properly, i.e. frame size, saddle height/position, stem & bar height/position & pedal choice:

1. start off with easy gearing, if you have to get off & walk up hills, the gearing is too high. You want to build strength in your legs & the muscles associated with cycling. If you find it very difficult to skip, skid or resist, your gearing is too high.

2. raise the gearing tooth by tooth as you find your chest isn't heaving after a long hill & you can easily lockup your legs at will.

For those who want to be monsters: once you return from a long ride on different gradients & your legs aren't sore, burning & feeling like they will fall off, you can begin to experiment with monster gears.

I currently ride 50 x 17 (up from 50 x 16 for the skid patches) & I don't even realize that I've just finished riding, as I am not aware of any leg pain or soreness when I get off of the bike. I can walk upstairs with no problem. I can skip & skid with no problem. My legs & knees are stronger than ever.

If I had gone straight away with a big ratio, I would most definitely be ambulatory right now.

Brakeless riding, back pressure, skids, skips, big gears, are a bad idea for people with knee injuries. It is like bump skiing on injured knees. Sure, some people do it, but there is a very real risk that permanent disability will result.

Hey guys-having the same complaints:

29 knee problems 15+ years. Knee doc says my patellas aren't sitting flat. They are positioned towards the outer sides of my knee.

My gear ratio is big at 48X16 (for 81 GI) I'm planning on going down to 42X16 then to 41X17. I just rode this morning to and fro work for a total of 22 miles and now my knees are killing me. I hope going to an easier GI will elevate some pain. I ride with front and back brakes. Take ibuprofen and gluclocomein (spelling?).

Anyhow, I hope this makes any sense. I should be asleep yesterday.

zzzzzzzz.

Number one, make sure your bike fits. Saddle height and fore/aft position is critical. If you are feeling pain in the front of your knees, it is generally a sign that your seat is too high. If you feel pain the the rear of your knee, it can mean your seat is too low. Tilt plays a smaller role, but can make a large difference in comfort and pedaling efficiency.

Next is pedaling technique. You need to pedal in circles, that is, use your muscles to push the pedal down, pull it back, and then back up over the top. There should be no dead spot anywhere in your pedal stroke. It's difficult to feel a dead spot on a fixie as the pedals move around on their own, and your legs are lazy, they won't tell you that they are cheating from the 9 oclock to the 12 oclock positions.

Heel position when pedaling depends on how well the rest of your set up is. You may ride heels up if your seat is set to tall, or heels down when it is too low. I keep a slightly downward tilt from heel to toe, somewhat in between. There is no exact rule for this, I just set it to where I feel most comfortable.

Gearing is critical. Big gears are asking for trouble. You can ride big gears, but only after many months of riding. Your tendons and ligaments take time to strengthen and adapt. For those of you who have ever injured a tendon or ligament, you know how long it takes them to heal. You need to build up slowly. 8 weeks of easy riding, then another 8 weeks of medium effort are good to build a solid base. After that, you can pretty much rock and roll, but always warm up and down carefully.

Stretching is important. A good stretching routine will go a long way to preventing injury, and a post exercise stretching routine will help your legs recover more quickly. For those of you who have done stage races, you know what a painful experience it is to wake up after an ass kicking ride the previous day, and have to ride another 100 miles in the coming day. You can't even walk for the first 10 minutes. I had to spend several minutes stretching just to be able to get my leg over my bike.

I always recommend going to a shop that has a fit kit, provided the person performing the fitting actually has some experience and isn't merely following written or videotaped directions (but this is still better than nothing). You should be able to find a pro quality shop somewhere within a day's drive (or ride) of where you are. Take the time (and money) to get your bike properly fitted. It's a hell of a lot cheaper than physical therapy (or surgery) later on.

Hey guys-having the same complaints:

29 knee problems 15+ years. Knee doc says my patellas aren't sitting flat. They are positioned towards the outer sides of my knee.

My gear ratio is big at 48X16 (for 81 GI) I'm planning on going down to 42X16 then to 41X17. I just rode this morning to and fro work for a total of 22 miles and now my knees are killing me. I hope going to an easier GI will elevate some pain. I ride with front and back brakes. Take ibuprofen and gluclocomein (spelling?).

Anyhow, I hope this makes any sense. I should be asleep yesterday.

zzzzzzzz.

Glucosamine was recently shown by the FDA to be ineffective. Cycling is an effective treatment. Use an easier gear (much easier). At first, it isn't the exercise that helps, it's the motion. You won't be riding very fast, but hopefully you'll be strengthening your knees. In time (a couple of months of regular, easy riding) you can pick up the pace a little bit. If the pain starts to come back, back off the pace.

I'm sure you meant "alleviate" not "elevate", it sounds to me like the pain is bad enough already. Motrin is a good pain reliever/anti-inflammatory.

At 48, my knees are still good, I've been riding fixed off and on since '76. From what I've seen being around cyclists for all these years, the following will abuse your knees over the years when riding fixed:

*Poor cleat alignment
*Running big gears
*Constant mechanically unassisted braking

Just two cents from the sidelines...

Anecdotal ...

I am 24, and my knees have been fine riding my 10 speed. Switched to a fixed gear, everything still fine ... have a front break but avoid using it when I can.

Was t-boned by a car who didn't stop at a stop sign about 2 months ago. She hit my left knee, thought it was fine but now, about 2 months later, after more brakeless stopping, it is starting to bother me a little. Kind of annoyed by the whole experience (not to mention the fact that my bike was totaled), but mostly just the pain I get in my left knee after a long bike ride. Hopefully I can rebuild its endurance? Sigh.

Moral of the story: the worst thing for your knees is getting hit by a car?

Incidentally that "toes down" style of pedaling, that is how I pedal, I had no idea it was a correct way to pedal. Interesting. I developed the habit when I got my 10 speed, which is a 62cm and waaay to big for me (I am 5'10".). It was the only way I could get good leverage throughout the entire stroke. Still pedal like that to this day.

Number one, make sure your bike fits. Saddle height and fore/aft position is critical. If you are feeling pain in the front of your knees, it is generally a sign that your seat is too high. If you feel pain the the rear of your knee, it can mean your seat is too low. Tilt plays a smaller role, but can make a large difference in comfort and pedaling efficiency.

Next is pedaling technique. You need to pedal in circles, that is, use your muscles to push the pedal down, pull it back, and then back up over the top. There should be no dead spot anywhere in your pedal stroke. It's difficult to feel a dead spot on a fixie as the pedals move around on their own, and your legs are lazy, they won't tell you that they are cheating from the 9 oclock to the 12 oclock positions.

Heel position when pedaling depends on how well the rest of your set up is. You may ride heels up if your seat is set to tall, or heels down when it is too low. I keep a slightly downward tilt from heel to toe, somewhat in between. There is no exact rule for this, I just set it to where I feel most comfortable.

Gearing is critical. Big gears are asking for trouble. You can ride big gears, but only after many months of riding. Your tendons and ligaments take time to strengthen and adapt. For those of you who have ever injured a tendon or ligament, you know how long it takes them to heal. You need to build up slowly. 8 weeks of easy riding, then another 8 weeks of medium effort are good to build a solid base. After that, you can pretty much rock and roll, but always warm up and down carefully.

Stretching is important. A good stretching routine will go a long way to preventing injury, and a post exercise stretching routine will help your legs recover more quickly. For those of you who have done stage races, you know what a painful experience it is to wake up after an ass kicking ride the previous day, and have to ride another 100 miles in the coming day. You can't even walk for the first 10 minutes. I had to spend several minutes stretching just to be able to get my leg over my bike.

I always recommend going to a shop that has a fit kit, provided the person performing the fitting actually has some experience and isn't merely following written or videotaped directions (but this is still better than nothing). You should be able to find a pro quality shop somewhere within a day's drive (or ride) of where you are. Take the time (and money) to get your bike properly fitted. It's a hell of a lot cheaper than physical therapy (or surgery) later on.


Thanks so much for your input! I NEED to start taking care of myself b/c it's only getting worst. I honestly felt handycapped yesterday night. Limping around my apt, asking my friend to fetch things because I was in to much pain was heartbreaking. Before my next ride I'm going to gear way down, and spend some serious time in the pool. (I use to swim and do polo in High school)

I've read on another thread simply entitled "knee" that riding a fix gear isn't plain stupid if you have existing knee problems. I may lay off of it for a while, but honestly I hate driving, and try to use my bike as often as possible. Oh well. Thanks again for the feedback fellas.

I'm 34, ride fixed, no brakes, 46x17 and 44x17 on windy days. I never resist in the power down style but rather I just skid over the saddle style. I've had some weird knee things in the past but the biggest change for me was switching to clipless (Sidi's into Time Atac XS) and running a true track bike with a short wheelbase. Both of these helped immensely. With clipless there's very little push back (shoe flex) and the short wheelbase allows me to skid very easily with far less effort.

And bike fit. Bike fit, bike fit. If you're into this, take it seriously. Fit your bike properly and don't ride junk. It's as rigorous and rewarding as any cycling so approach the equipment the same way. My 2¢