Foo - motorcycles

That is The Second Best Advise.

First Learn to Use Both Brakes at the same time.

I was Lucky and rode 28 years accident free.

I have to disagree. Learn to use the front brake ONLY.

The rear brake provides very little braking since as you brake, all the weight of the bike and rider go onto the front tire.

Using the rear brake will not slow you down significantly and will only get you into trouble because you will lock up the rear and skid which can quickly lead to a crash.

The other reason for training yourself to use the front brake only is that when you are in a panic situation, your body will automatically do what it is trained to do. If you only use the front brake, then in an emergency, you will hit the front brake. No amount of "thinking" that in case of an emergency, use the front brake only will get you to do it if you haven't practiced it every time you ride.

The first thing I was taught before going on the track was to use the front brake only. Most racers use only the front brake, with the exception of the real hotshots like Haga and Rossi that lock up the rear in a corner entry on purpose to point the bike into the corner. But those skills are way beyond any street rider.

The only exception to the front brake only rule is when you are in something really slippery, like gravel, sand or grass. In that situation, it's probably best not to use any brakes at all, but if you have to, just use the rear brake lightly.

The brake debate will depend on the specific bike...sportbikes have much more forward weight distribution than cruisers.

I am generally front brake only, but use my rear brake for the following:
- uphill starts
- riding with a passenger
- riding in gravel/dirt

Damn crotch rockets, I'd never own one of those death traps!!!! :)

Damn crotch rockets, I'd never own one of those death traps!!!! :)

I think MTV and youth oriented media helped push the Sportbike culture to were it
is today. For a street application, there really isnt a worse bike one can use, but,
they look cool and you get an intense rush winding up on the straights, so this has
become the new standard in determining a bikes worth. I have seen sooooo many
people get miles under thier belt and then move on to the dreaded Harley or
BMW type 'olde mans' bike because the reality is that they are soooo much more
enjoyable to ride on public roads for long periods of time :)

I think MTV and youth oriented media helped push the Sportbike culture to were it
is today. For a street application, there really isnt a worse bike one can use, but,
they look cool and you get an intense rush winding up on the straights, so this has
become the new standard in determining a bikes worth. I have seen sooooo many
people get miles under thier belt and then move on to the dreaded Harley or
BMW type 'olde mans' bike because the reality is that they are soooo much more
enjoyable to ride on public roads for long periods of time :)

Actually I went from cruisers to crotch rockets. I had a shadow 600, shadow 1100, yamaha warrior 1700, kawazaki zx600, kawasaki zx6r, and then the kawasaki zx14 that I have now. The zx14 is by far the most comfortable bike I have ever ridden besides a goldwing. It's amazing how comfortable this bike is. It's "sorta" fast too. ;)

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b148/LowCel/IMG_0019_1.jpg

Heres my DR while it still looked new, pre-knobbies and being set up for Dual Sport events.
Out of the 20 or so bikes Ive owned, this was by far and away the most fun :)

You know you will be riding if you come to the west ...

http://preowned.santafebmwmotorcycles.com/uploaded/54_lg.jpg

When are you getting supermoto wheels on your DR?

BMW type 'olde mans' bike because

Fighting words ...

http://preowned.santafebmwmotorcycles.com/uploaded/49_lg.jpg

I may be old, but at least I'm not fat. Well, I'm fat, but at least I'm not stupid. Well, I'm on BF, so that's debatable, but at least I still have my house in this economy.

I think I just jinxed myself.

Actually I went from cruisers to crotch rockets. I had a shadow 600, shadow 1100, yamaha warrior 1700, kawazaki zx600, kawasaki zx6r, and then the kawasaki zx14 that I have now. The zx14 is by far the most comfortable bike I have ever ridden besides a goldwing. It's amazing how comfortable this bike is. It's "sorta" fast too. ;)


Ive had a few too...a YZF600 which I really liked ! An old Honda RR900...ROCKETSHIP !
Very scary...Realistically, I could ride the 600 much faster. :eek: And, recently, the last
year they made the ZX-9 Kawi. Very nice motor, but then a curve came along........:eek: :lol:


You know you will be riding if you come to the west ...

http://preowned.santafebmwmotorcycles.com/uploaded/54_lg.jpg[IMG]

When are you getting supermoto wheels on your DR?

You promise !!! I love that bike !!!! IVe ridden with people who have put them
in places you would not believe !! Do a search on adventurerider.com !!! :)
For the DR, I actually prefer the 21" frontee on the street. I think its more out
of familiarity, but the way it turns in on twisty roads at speed is a liitle more
predictable to me. Doing full lock powerslides on backroad pavement with slick,
new knobbies is too cool for words, too :)


Fighting words ...

[IMG]http://preowned.santafebmwmotorcycles.com/uploaded/49_lg.jpg

No...I love these bikes ! I meant when people are actually into riding for
the sake of riding and sightseeing, etc, this is where they end up.....
No fighting intended :p

Hey Lem ... google Emilio Scotto

Is not the bike ... is the pilot.

The GS is easier than the Goldwing.

Ohh can I play? Here's my bike, it's a 2006 Triumph Thruxton

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3068/3046332701_79d3b33a39_b.jpg

I've gotten 6k miles on it now and loving it more every day! Definetly recommend MSF courses.

The OP reminds me of buying the Sportster that I have now. My current wife was REALLY against the idea. After months of preparing her for the fact that I was going to buy one we were at my parent's one night and the issue came up. Her eyes got as big around as saucers, she knew she had me. You see, my parents are the epitome of overly-safe and conservative. However, she didn't know that my dad taught me to ride and we had both had bikes and rode together the last few years I lived at home. BACKFIRE!

To please your parents take the MSF safety course. It will also help on insurance and in some states substitute for the test for a motorcycle endorsement on your license.

Beyond that be very careful and be a little paranoid when riding. Ride as if everyone is out to get you.

Ride as if everyone is out to get you.

They are.

That goes for human powered two wheelers also

The only reason I survived my first five years of motorcycling is because I had 15+ previous years experience as a road cyclist target for the cagers. I was already familiar with avoiding them. By the way, if you see some kid driving a car with a backwards or sideways ball cap, they're an idiot. If they can't even put a cap on straight, count on them being unable to drive their car.

By the way, if you see some kid driving a car with a backwards or sideways ball cap, they're an idiot. If they can't even put a cap on straight, count on them being unable to drive their car.This also holds true if they're wearing a hooded sweater with the hood on. Doubly so if they're wearing big can headphones.

Ohh can I play? Here's my bike, it's a 2006 Triumph Thruxton

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3068/3046332701_79d3b33a39_b.jpg

I've gotten 6k miles on it now and loving it more every day! Definetly recommend MSF courses.


It just doesnt get any more beautiful than this ! :thumb:

Awesome !

the only reason i survived my first five years of motorcycling is because i had 15+ previous years experience as a road cyclist target for the cagers. I was already familiar with avoiding them. By the way, if you see some kid driving a car with a backwards or sideways ball cap, they're an idiot. If they can't even put a cap on straight, count on them being unable to drive their car.

:50:

:50:

I'll take this as confirmation that putting a ball cap on straight exceeds your sophomoric capabilities.

Here's a couple more good ones...
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii8/cycle17/AMA%20School/DSC01713.jpg
Over 100mph off the final corner...
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii8/cycle17/AMA%20School/DSC01760.jpg
I love this shot, coming off the backstretch at speed. Woooo Whooo!

Nice :thumb:

Scary, but nice !

Bikes, love bikes

Here are my current ones
http://rad.smugmug.com/photos/81555586_XyMZq-M.jpg

http://rad.smugmug.com/photos/38174234_HgBUe-L.jpg


Here is a shot of one I sold a couple of years ago. You know that feelng you get when you watch the new owner ride off..The feeling, "WHY DID I SELL THAT BIKE". That feeling has never left me, daymn... My Norton rat, it started life with me as a Norton Interstate.
http://rad.smugmug.com/photos/52724146_9tjDa-M.jpg

I'll take this as confirmation that putting a ball cap on straight exceeds your sophomoric capabilities.
Waa?

sry i wz txtng

Con, what is up with the front brake on the Norton? Is is a solid disc with an unusual wear pattern?

And let's get this whole "250 is a noob's bike" crap out of the way. You'll only need to sell it in 2 or 3 months if you are compensating for a very small penis. I've put over 27k miles on ninja 250s and am still happy with them. I wish I still had my first one, but the neighbor ran it over so I had to get another :(

Another thing to look at is old UJMs. I own 2, a 79 Suzuki GS550 and an 84 Yamaha Maxxim 550. Damn near identical (thus Universal). Heavy and underpowered by today's standards - IIRC ~50hp and 450lbs. The two bikes cost me a grand total of $300. $300 for the GS which needed a new battery and a tune, free for the Yamaha which was a basket case (with fresh paint though lol)

although I don't own a bike ( my friends talked me out of it last summer) i have crashed one...it sucks..and it hurts......and that was without getting run over by another car or truck...hitting the pavement sucks enough...but i completely understand the alure of motorcycles...for all the accidents i've been to at work, my crash, and seeing my friend messed up from a crash ( hes fine now thank god) I have to say..there is still something inside me screaming "GET ONE!!!".


On a side note + 1 on the enduro's thats what I was looking at, then found out what a supermoto was and fell in love

Con, what is up with the front brake on the Norton? Is is a solid disc with an unusual wear pattern?

It is a stock, solid, warped disc, One of Norton’s first. It really does not stop you, it just kinda slows you. There are a number of upgrades that can be done to improve it, I never got around to those, or a hundred other upgrades it needed as part of the restoration.

Here's a couple more good ones...
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii8/cycle17/AMA%20School/DSC01713.jpg
Over 100mph off the final corner...
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii8/cycle17/AMA%20School/DSC01760.jpg
I love this shot, coming off the backstretch at speed. Woooo Whooo!

Shweet. What track?

So you're saying that the MSF and all those motorcycle safety books that tell you to use both brakes are wrong? Are Honda and other companies that use linked brakes on their bikes wrong too? Does this make ABS an Evil Plot?

My own experience in a panic stop using the front brake only was that the rear end came around, the bike high-sided, and I had a nasty crash. I use both brakes now.

So you're saying that the MSF and all those motorcycle safety books that tell you to use both brakes are wrong? .

That one brake only stuff is pretty funny. As we all know, the rear may deliver only 10%, 20% or 30% of the bikes total stopping power; however, I know I just may need an extra 20% stopping power on the street in an emergency. So like you, I use both, knowing full well the front does most of the work.

FWIW..I based this simple assessment on 45 years of full time riding street and dirt, owning a bunch of different bikes in that time, and teaching the silly sport of riding for the better part of the last decade.

One of the best Paris/Dakar riders ever, from the States, Jimmy Lewis, teaching me how to use my brakes down steep off road stuff.
http://rad.smugmug.com/photos/38118610_uSPkH-M.jpg

Where were ya when I needed ya, Jimmy?
http://rad.smugmug.com/photos/51266468_55x6M-M.jpg

Shweet. What track?
Sandia Motorsports Park, New Mexico

wear boots, and learn how to use both brakes, you may not always need the rear brake like when you are turning at speed.

but I would still learn how to use it in panic stops, helps keep the back end of the bike on the ground. I have seen too many high sides.

I lost my dl so i am currently not riding. dont make me post the pic of my dad and his bike after he got hit by a car flying off an interstate, some things are just random.


me on my cbr post broken leg.
http://stupidhurts.org//cpg14/albums/uploads/me/weee.jpg

my zx7rr in race trim
http://www.bikeforums.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=98289&stc=1&d=1237524718

in street trim
http://www.bikeforums.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=98290&d=1237524681

and one of my old roommates, she is currently selling her cbr
http://www.bikeforums.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=98291&stc=1&d=1237524718

So you're saying that the MSF and all those motorcycle safety books that tell you to use both brakes are wrong? Are Honda and other companies that use linked brakes on their bikes wrong too? Does this make ABS an Evil Plot?

My own experience in a panic stop using the front brake only was that the rear end came around, the bike high-sided, and I had a nasty crash. I use both brakes now.

Yes, the MSF is wrong. Now, linked ABS is a completely different story. With ABS, the rear tire will never skid, which is precisely what you are trying to avoid because as soon as the rear starts to skid, you can't steer, the rear tends to come around and most people's reaction when the rear starts to come around is to let off the rear brake, which is precisely the wrong thing to do because now you are going to highside big-time.

In your panic stop, you seem to say that you hit the front brake hard and the rear came up off the ground and then came around. Would the rear brake have provided any stopping power with the rear wheel off the ground?

What you experienced, was exceeding the limit of your front brake. Threshold braking is where you use the front brake to the point where the rear wheel is completely unweighted but still just barely on the ground. It's something that everyone should practice in a safe area so they know what the limits of the bikes front brake is.

Using both brakes around town is much more comfortable, because coming to a complete stop from say 40 miles an hour, you are going to have a lot of front and dive, which is something that a lot of people don't like and can't deal with. But as I said before, how you brake in a panic stop is how you are accustomed to braking, and if you regularly brake with both brakes, you will do that in a panic, with a very good possibility of locking in the rear and crashing, especially if you are going around a corner.

if you regularly brake with both brakes, you will do that in a panic, with a very good possibility of locking in the rear and crashing,

OMG!!!! Lets all hope and pray you never ever teach anyone how to ride motorcycles.

My guess is you have been street riding just long enough to be dangerous to yourself and those you give advice to.

Where were ya when I needed ya, Jimmy?
http://rad.smugmug.com/photos/51266468_55x6M-M.jpg

This is GREAT !!!

One one of my first DR exersions, I got stuck in a mud bog a little deeper than
this (Thank the MC gods for electric start) because I didnt attack it hard enuff.
I got the bike upright, but the weird thing was, suction from the mud kept my
boots from moving. It took ALL my strength to unstick myself from the goo :eek:
Like you, I had my club laffing at me and snapping pics so the laffery could continue later :lol:

This is GREAT !!!...
Like you, I had my club laffing at me and snapping pics so the laffery could continue later :lol:

Don't ya love it. I convinced the guys I ride with would say, "wait just a minute", before they would lift a burning motorcycle off me so they could get a picture first:lol:

Reminds me of this video of a friend of mine:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2V0V0740PXI

Reminds me of this video of a friend of mine:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2V0V0740PXI

OWWWWWWCHHHHHH !!!
That hurt just looking at it :cry:
That poor bike :cry:

Sealed air box :thumb:

OMG!!!! Lets all hope and pray you never ever teach anyone how to ride motorcycles.

My guess is you have been street riding just long enough to be dangerous to yourself and those you give advice to.

I've ridden motorcycles for many years, raced motorcycles a couple of seasons and based my comments about using the front brake on motorcycle racing guru Keith Code and the experience of other motorcycle racers.

Ever late brake approaching a corner at 120 miles an hour with your rear brake? How'd that work out for you?

OMG!!!! Lets all hope and pray you never ever teach anyone how to ride motorcycles.

My guess is you have been street riding just long enough to be dangerous to yourself and those you give advice to.

Truth.

Fighting words ...

http://preowned.santafebmwmotorcycles.com/uploaded/49_lg.jpg

BMW owners are typically older. I rode BMW's for 19 years starting when I was 30, and was one of the younger members of my club when I quit. And they still hadn't come up with a comfortable saddle in all those years either.

Yes, the MSF is wrong. Now, linked ABS is a completely different story. With ABS, the rear tire will never skid, which is precisely what you are trying to avoid because as soon as the rear starts to skid, you can't steer, the rear tends to come around and most people's reaction when the rear starts to come around is to let off the rear brake, which is precisely the wrong thing to do because now you are going to highside big-time.

In your panic stop, you seem to say that you hit the front brake hard and the rear came up off the ground and then came around. Would the rear brake have provided any stopping power with the rear wheel off the ground?

What you experienced, was exceeding the limit of your front brake. Threshold braking is where you use the front brake to the point where the rear wheel is completely unweighted but still just barely on the ground. It's something that everyone should practice in a safe area so they know what the limits of the bikes front brake is.

Using both brakes around town is much more comfortable, because coming to a complete stop from say 40 miles an hour, you are going to have a lot of front and dive, which is something that a lot of people don't like and can't deal with. But as I said before, how you brake in a panic stop is how you are accustomed to braking, and if you regularly brake with both brakes, you will do that in a panic, with a very good possibility of locking in the rear and crashing, especially if you are going around a corner.

I'll be sure to alert the MSF, but getting to your question about the crash, it was a cheesy Greek rented motorcycle with crappy tires, and I suspect that if the bike had good rubber the rear end wouldn't have slid around. But the linked brakes probably would have prevented that from happening, all it needed on the rear was some braking action, I never even stomped on the pedal (it was my first day on a m/c with gears ever.

I don't know who's right, and I'm no expert, but I think my Honda ST1300A (ABS linked brakes) is about as safe a bike as you can buy, and I'll keep braking with both brakes, particularly in heavy duty braking situations. I've been riding for five years, about 14K miles, no incidents yet, I do ride into Manhattan a few times a year, so I'm pretty comfortable in just about any road situation.

Hey, how many m/c riders are 'experts'? 99% of us are weekend warrior motorcycle freds. That's what I am.

and one of my old roommates, she is currently selling her cbr
http://www.bikeforums.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=98291&stc=1&d=1237524718


Oooh, it's bike picture time. :D

http://paularickert.net/albums/userpics/Keigwins_2007-10-08F%7E0.JPG

*Rawr* ladies on bikes.:love:

I agree with c0urt and others - I always wore boots or at the very least, high top leather basketball sneakers (my favorites were the old Corcoran WWII army jump boots - very easy to get around the shifter). I also always had some type of jacket on, no matter how hot it was out.

Hey, how many m/c riders are 'experts'? 99% of us are weekend warrior motorcycle freds. That's what I am.

Yo, reporting in. Even with 15 years of motorcycle and 35 years bicycle riding experience, I still consider myself an amateur on the motorcycle. I ride exclusively on the street and fire/logging/Forest Service roads and have never raced or been on a track in my life. I celebrate my Fredness. Don't make me post that fluorescent picture of me on the scooter again.

*Rawr* ladies on bikes.:love:

I agree with c0urt and others - I always wore boots or at the very least, high top leather basketball sneakers (my favorites were the old Corcoran WWII army jump boots - very easy to get around the shifter). I also always had some type of jacket on, no matter how hot it was out.

+1 on all counts in that post.
Ladies, boots, and jacket. Always a helmet too.

I've ridden motorcycles for many years, raced motorcycles a couple of seasons and based my comments about using the front brake on motorcycle racing guru Keith Code and the experience of other motorcycle racers.

Ever late brake approaching a corner at 120 miles an hour with your rear brake? How'd that work out for you?

I think I have discovered the problem; you are taking track riding skills and applying them to street riding. How a corner is handled on the track is not the way an emergency stop is handled on the street. You used the term "Panic stop" in describing staying away from the rear brake, now you are talking late braking for a corner, they are not the same. The next time you see Keith Code, ask him if he recommends street riders not use any rear brake during an emergency stop on the street; trust me, we won’t say only use the front.

A 120 mph corner on a track riding situation has little in common with an ordinary panic stop on the street - which typically involves just preventing your motorcycle from t-boning a cager, not cornering dynamics. I think you're confusing track braking for motorcycle racing with the braking dynamics required for hauling a 450-800 lb street bike down from 50-0 mph in a straight line - a more typical panic stop situation. I can understand the front brake only thinking in the track cornering braking, but that doesn't seem to apply to street bike panic stops.

You're saying the Motorcycle Safety Foundation and every other motorcycle safety expert is wrong on this? Really? Let me know how that works out for you. I'll keep braking the way I was taught - evenly, both brakes. Works for me. So far.

There's a lot of static and bullsiht in motorcycling, including those who think Loud Pipes Save Lives, ABS is some Evil Plot, helmets should be optional, etc, etc. You have to figure out what makes sense. I know what works for me. And if I'm wrong about that I guess I'll only find out after I crash. I've placed my faith in ABS linked brakes and the MSF.

I have no interest in pissing contests with the motorcycle version of Road Nazis here. I'm a motorcycle Fred, 99% of us are, I listen to the people with industry acknowledgement as safety experts (like the MSF) and hope they know what the F they're doing, because I sure don't. I do what they taught me and I hope it works. I just want to ride a few thousand miles a year, not violate the traffic laws, and not put the stupid bike down. That's not too much to ask.

Is it?

A 120 mph corner on a track riding situation has little in common with an ordinary panic stop on the street - which typically involves just preventing your motorcycle from t-boning a cager, not cornering dynamics. I think you're confusing track braking for motorcycle racing with the braking dynamics required for hauling a 450-800 lb street bike down from 50-0 mph in a straight line - a more typical panic stop situation. I can understand the front brake only thinking in the track cornering braking, but that doesn't seem to apply to street bike panic stops.

You're saying the Motorcycle Safety Foundation and every other motorcycle safety expert is wrong on this? Really? Let me know how that works out for you. I'll keep braking the way I was taught - evenly, both brakes. Works for me. So far.

There's a lot of static and bullsiht in motorcycling, including those who think Loud Pipes Save Lives, ABS is some Evil Plot, helmets should be optional, etc, etc. You have to figure out what makes sense. I know what works for me. And if I'm wrong about that I guess I'll only find out after I crash. I've placed my faith in ABS linked brakes and the MSF.

I have no interest in pissing contests with the motorcycle version of Road Nazis here. I'm a motorcycle Fred, 99% of us are, I listen to the people with industry acknowledgement as safety experts (like the MSF) and hope they know what the F they're doing, because I sure don't. I do what they taught me and I hope it works. I just want to ride a few thousand miles a year, not violate the traffic laws, and not put the stupid bike down. That's not too much to ask.

Is it?



I wasn't talking about braking in a corner at 120 mph, which would be close to suicide, I'm talking about braking hard from 120 miles an hour before going into a corner. It's braking as hard as you possibly can in a straight line to get down to the speed you have to be at in order to negotiate the corner. And the skill of latebreaking before a corner is exactly the same skill that you would use in a panic stop to avoid a cager that just pulled out in front of you, braking as hard as you possibly can in a straight line, to the point that the rear wheel is just starting to float off the ground.

But in your case it's moot, since you have linked ABS, all you do is pull one lever and the bike does the rest, no?

I think I have discovered the problem; you are taking track riding skills and applying them to street riding. How a corner is handled on the track is not the way an emergency stop is handled on the street. You used the term "Panic stop" in describing staying away from the rear brake, now you are talking late braking for a corner, they are not the same. The next time you see Keith Code, ask him if he recommends street riders not use any rear brake during an emergency stop on the street; trust me, we won’t say only use the front.

I'm not talking about braking through the corner, which is called trail braking, I'm talking about late braking, which is waiting until the last possible moment to brake as hard as you can on the straight, right before the corner entry.

But in your case it's moot, since you have linked ABS, all you do is pull one lever and the bike does the rest, no?

I guess so, when you apply the front brake 100% and no rear, the linked brake supposedly applies something like 10-20% of force to the rear and vice versa. In other words you can't have 100% braking on the front or rear wheel and 0% on the rear, and the motorcycle safety experts @ Honda and other companies have deemed this a very desirable safety feature. The only people I hear ranting against this are track riding dudes, so maybe they have crazy m/c handling/braking skills guys like me don't have, which is very possible.