Foo - motorcycles

I'm not talking about braking through the corner, which is called trail braking, I'm talking about late braking, which is waiting until the last possible moment to brake as hard as you can on the straight, right before the corner entry.

This will be my last post on this subject; it is growing tiresome.

You may be a very skilled track rider but you are misapplying the skills you have been taught regarding skills needed for street riders. Not only are you on a track, you are riding a bike set up for the track.

You will never find an experienced track school instructor who would ever give the advice to a street rider on a street bike to not use the rear brake in an emergency stop.

Please, lets fix this right now, it is an “emergency stop” that is being discussed, not set up for corner, nor skills in a corner, not even a “panic stop”. A panic stop requires no skills, just panic; it most often does not go well for the rider. An emergency stop is the skill in question; straight line stopping in the shortest distance a rider can. This is accomplished only one way; maximum application of both brakes without locking either one. It matters not if the brakes in question are linked, integrated or ABS. The concept is the same, full application of both brakes without locking either one.

There a lot of things open for interpretation regarding motorcycle skills, this one is not one of them.

As I said, I’m done posting on this braking subject, I will read your response, so give it your best shot.

And, I hope you understand, there are no hard feelings, this is just the internet.

This will be my last post on this subject; it is growing tiresome.

You may be a very skilled track rider but you are misapplying the skills you have been taught regarding skills needed for street riders. Not only are you on a track, you are riding a bike set up for the track.

You will never find an experienced track school instructor who would ever give the advice to a street rider on a street bike to not use the rear brake in an emergency stop.

Please, lets fix this right now, it is an “emergency stop” that is being discussed, not set up for corner, nor skills in a corner, not even a “panic stop”. A panic stop requires no skills, just panic; it most often does not go well for the rider. An emergency stop is the skill in question; straight line stopping in the shortest distance a rider can. This is accomplished only one way; maximum application of both brakes without locking either one. It matters not if the brakes in question are linked, integrated or ABS. The concept is the same, full application of both brakes without locking either one.

There a lot of things open for interpretation regarding motorcycle skills, this one is not one of them.

As I said, I’m done posting on this braking subject, I will read your response, so give it your best shot.

And, I hope you understand, there are no hard feelings, this is just the internet.

We have different opinions, let's leave it at that. Of course there are no hard feelings. I would say though, that I was simply trying to share my experience about motorcycle safety, I was not trying to turn it into an "I'm right, you're wrong" pissing match.

+1 on all counts in that post.
Ladies, boots, and jacket. Always a helmet too.

And gloves! :thumb:

Always a helmet too.It was a bit of a shock going to a state with no helmet law (CO) and seeing Harley riders tearing along with nothing on their head but a (surely kevlar) bandana. Had the weather been warmer, I'm sure I would have seen some squids in their fullest glory.

I always had to wear a helmet as it;s the law here. I am sure If I had my bike somewhere quieter with less traffic I;d go for the occasional ride without one, just because. A very slow, careful ride if the weather was just perfect.

I saw a Harley at my college campus a couple of times, with one of those little kippa helmets. I wondered how anyone would wear something with so little protection (I wore a full face all the time, unless it was super hot out or my gf was on the back, in which case I gave her the full face and used an old open face Bell) Then I saw the guy who belonged to the bike...let's just say there wasn't much left to protect from the neck up. Sad.

I always had to wear a helmet as it;s the law here. I am sure If I had my bike somewhere quieter with less traffic I;d go for the occasional ride without one, just because. A very slow, careful ride if the weather was just perfect.

.


I had two Harleys and rode them with no helmets a lot.
When one makes a conscious decision to go to 'that' side
you have pretty much resigned yourself to the slow, cautious
chapter of riding in your life where the chances of needing the
helmet are reduced enuff that you are comfortable without it.
Would I rip my RR900 around playing games with other squids
with no helmet , of course not...but, riding the road along the
shore at 35mph is a little less of a risk. Coincidentally, I fell
on both Harleys, not the 180mph Honda or Zx-9. Go figure !

I had two Harleys and rode them with no helmets a lot.
When one makes a conscious decision to go to 'that' side
you have pretty much resigned yourself to the slow, cautious
chapter of riding in your life where the chances of needing the
helmet are reduced enuff that you are comfortable without it.
Would I rip my RR900 around playing games with other squids
with no helmet , of course not...but, riding the road along the
shore at 35mph is a little less of a risk. Coincidentally, I fell
on both Harleys, not the 180mph Honda or Zx-9. Go figure !


The whole safety gear thing is pretty funny for those of us that ride both kinds of bikes, when ya think about it.

I would never ride my motorcycle home down out of the mountains without all the gear, armored jacket, full face helmet, armored pants, boots and gloves.

However, I come down the same sections of road on my bike hitting close to the same speeds in some areas, high 40's mph even a bit of the 50's and I wear, thin little shorts, a thin little shirt, fingerless gloves, silly little shoes and a helmet that I don't ever want to test at 50mph...:roflmao2:

The whole safety gear thing is pretty funny for those of us that ride both kinds of bikes, when ya think about it.

I would never ride my motorcycle home down out of the mountains without all the gear, armored jacket, full face helmet, armored pants, boots and gloves.

However, I come down the same sections of road on my bike hitting close to the same speeds in some areas, high 40's mph even a bit of the 50's and I wear, thin little shorts, a thin little shirt, fingerless gloves, silly little shoes and a helmet that I don't ever want to test at 50mph...:roflmao2:

I have often pondered this exact same point. I have had more bicycle crashes than motorcycle crashes. My left hip fracture was the result of a mountain bike crash.

http://www.motorcyclespecs.co.za/Gallery/BMW%20F800ST%2006%20%202.jpg
*sigh*
Batts eyes

http://pictures.topspeed.com/IMG/crop/200807/2009-bmw-g-650-x-country_460x0w.jpg

:thumb:

You may be a very skilled track rider but you are misapplying the skills you have been taught regarding skills needed for street riders.

You will never find an experienced track school instructor who would ever give the advice to a street rider on a street bike to not use the rear brake in an emergency stop.

Please, lets fix this right now, it is an “emergency stop” that is being discussed, not set up for corner, nor skills in a corner, not even a “panic stop”. A panic stop requires no skills, just panic; it most often does not go well for the rider. .


We have different opinions, let's leave it at that. Of course there are no hard feelings. I would say though, that I was simply trying to share my experience about motorcycle safety, I was not trying to turn it into an "I'm right, you're wrong" pissing match.

I know well what your both saying, and am well practiced in going to the absolute limits on braking on dirt and street, twice on the street in emergency straight line stops, and surviving a very stupid summer of racing up and down the canyon above the Rock Store with the squids every weekend.

I use both brakes in varying degrees of modulation as needed all the time, and differently depending on conditions and desired end results, like needing to get the rear end out of line for a fast corner.

I have to go with San Rensho on most of what he says, as there is no better teacher than racing to know the limits of handling and braking on your motorcycle, and every skill you can possibly learn on the track can only help you survive better on the street, especially in an emergency.

I can't stress enough to just go practice straight line emergency stops somewhere safe until you know the limits of your machine. Like everyone is saying....you will do what you've trained for in a "no time to think emergency", so train well.

It saved by bacon when the old couple pulled out right out in front of me and stopped, with me headed for a T-bone at 45 mph. Of course I was already slowing down like I always do when I haven't made eye contact yet. It was 99% front brake and locked up hard in back, and I still bumped a nice crease into the driver door. The look on their faces was priceless.

The city street sweeper got me. Wasn't even time to begin to brake. You just don't expect them to U-turn right before the crest of a hill neither of you can see over. :)

You need to train yourself to clutch when rear panic braking too......
Shutting your motor off at 50mph is not a pleasant situation. :)

You need to train yourself to clutch when rear panic braking too......
Shutting your motor off at 50mph is not a pleasant situation. :)

And Lem.

I back Lem and Con....they all know their riding ****.

And props to anyone riding street....on any two-wheeler. :thumb:

http://www.motorcyclespecs.co.za/Gallery/BMW%20F800ST%2006%20%202.jpg
*sigh*
Batts eyes

I have taken the F800st's on three different rides, very nice bikes!

http://www.bikeforums.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=98439&stc=1&d=1237638466
me in france with rossi's 06 bike


http://www.bikeforums.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=98440&stc=1&d=1237638466
one of the exes going to go stand on the corner in winslow, az.

I say Loud Pipes Save Lives.

No. no, no, no, no...

Loud Clutches Save Lives. :lol:

HD is in trouble, article from today's NY Times:


After riding high for two decades, the company that makes the hulky bikes that devoted riders affectionately call Hogs is sputtering. Harley’s core customers are graying baby boomers, whose savings, in many cases, have gone up in smoke in the market downturn. Few are in the mood to shell out up to $20,000 or more for something that is basically a big toy, and the company, in turn, has not captured much of the younger market.

And though Harley’s woes pale in comparison to what the automakers face — Harley’s revenue dipped 2 percent last year while Detroit was crashing — overproduction and loose lending practices have burdened the company’s finances.

In a pattern similar to that of the housing bust, Harley goosed sales by luring many buyers with no-money-down loans. A subsidiary created about 15 years ago, Harley-Davidson Financial Services, made those loans and packaged them into securities to sell to investors. As the credit market skidded, so did this subsidiary.

As much as one-fourth of the $2.8 billion in loans issued by Harley-Davidson Financial Services last year were subprime, with interest rates as high as 18 percent. As the downturn took hold, some borrowers started defaulting on loans and investors stopped buying the securities, forcing Harley to write down $80 million of debt last year, analysts said. Although it recently tightened lending standards, the company is still chasing buyers by offering credit.

“It’s an unsustainable strategy to continue financing this way,” says Robin Farley, an analyst with UBS. “In the last few months, they’ve been running into a liquidity wall.”

Tom Bergmann, Harley-Davidson’s chief financial officer, defends the company’s lending practices. “It’s not easy in this environment,” he said. “We have to give loans to customers, but only to those worthy, and we’ve been disciplined and prudent in granting credit to our customers.”

In large part because of loan problems, though, profits at Harley fell 30 percent last year, to $654.7 million on revenue of $5.6 billion. Operating income of the financial subsidiary fell 61 percent, to $83 million.

CONCERNS about Harley’s future grew after the departures of its two top executives were announced. In December, Jim Ziemer, 59, said he planned to retire as C.E.O. this year. In early January, the company announced that Saiyid Naqvi, the head of the finance unit, was resigning after less than two years at Harley. Since September, Harley’s stock has plunged 70 percent, to under $13, compared with a 36 percent decline for the Standard & Poor’s 500.

Like many cash-tight companies, Harley, based in Milwaukee, is finding that borrowing is difficult — and expensive. In early February, Harley announced that Berkshire Hathaway, Warren E. Buffett’s company, would buy $300 million of its unsecured debt. (Harley reported total debt of $3.9 billion last year, more than double what it held in 2007.) In exchange for his good name and millions, Mr. Buffett demanded 15 percent interest from Harley on his investment (similar to deals he received from Goldman Sachs and General Electric when he invested in those companies last fall).

Harley’s largest investor, Davis Selected Advisers, matched Mr. Buffett’s deal, pumping $300 million more into the company, also at 15 percent interest.

But even $600 million isn’t enough to enable the financial arm to continue making loans through year-end. Company executives announced that the finance unit needed a total of $1 billion for loans. While that’s one-third lower than last year, the executives are bracing for plummeting sales and continued frozen securities markets.

Congress included the motorcycle industry in a Treasury Department program intended to unclog financial markets by lending to investors buying securities backed by mortgages and other types of loans. It was uncertain, however, how much Harley would receive — and when — making this an unreliable source of capital. And while Mr. Bergmann said he had met with several banks since doing the Berkshire and Davis deals, he had not yet announced any new loans.

Harley’s road has perhaps never looked so hazardous.

If the company can’t obtain new sources of money to offer loans to customers, they will have to try to borrow elsewhere. But in this credit crisis, qualifying for a loan isn’t easy. A lack of credit would probably depress bike sales even further, which in turn would make it harder for Harley to repay Berkshire and Davis.

“If the securities market continues like it is, then Harley faces very serious issues,” says James Hardiman, senior research analyst at FTN Midwest, a brokerage firm in Cleveland. “Harley has been able to find different sources of funds, but the securities market is the only way they can unload the debt from their books.”

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Mr. Ziemer, Harley’s chief, says: “We have a strong business that’s anchored by an iconic brand. But as we look at 2009, it’ll be a challenging year for the business.”

HARLEY has lived through troubled times before. The company is 106 years old, after surviving the Great Depression and a major blow in the 1970s when sales grew sharply for cheaper bikes from Japanese makers like Honda and Kawasaki. The company even flirted with bankruptcy in 1985 as its foreign rivals soared.

But Harley persevered by capitalizing on its revered brand, made famous in movies like “Easy Rider,” and more recently by appealing to boomers’ desire to recapture their youth.

When customers buy a Harley, they’re instantly a member of a family of zealous fans — guys with tattoos and unruly hair as well as lawyers and doctors. (The average household income of today’s rider is about $87,000.)

The company’s Harley Owners Group program, founded in 1983, has more than one million members who come together for rallies and rides, swapping their favorite touring stories and chatting about new product lines.

“Harley brings together all walks of life,” says Mark-Hans Richer, Harley’s chief marketing officer. “You’ll find a neurosurgeon talking and riding with a janitor. It’s a family.”

By building such a powerful brand with offbeat, behind-the-scenes efforts — little advertising, lots of accessories and minor visible changes to bikes over the decades — Harley has become a case study for academics, marketing gurus and other corporations. But Harley’s longtime strategy of marketing to the boomers, which was a blazing success, is now backfiring.

Its core customers have grayed, and they are buying new bikes less often. The average age of a Harley rider is 49, up from 42 five years ago. But company executives don’t seem outwardly worried by the lackluster growth among those 35 and younger, even as it takes steps to turn them into Harley owners.

They say they’re confident that the baby-boom generation has 15 more years of riding life. “They’re not about to stop riding because they’re getting older,” Mr. Richer says. “It would be dumb to walk away from our core customer, the most lucrative customer.”

As Harley keeps most of its focus on its aging consumers, rivals like BMW, Honda and Yamaha are attracting younger customers who seem less interested in cruising on what their old man rides. United States sales of light sport bikes, intended for the younger crowd, have increased more than 50 percent in the last five years, and the Japanese makers have popular cruisers of their own. Harley has roughly 30 percent of the overall United States motorcycle market, but it accounts for half of the heavyweight bikes sold in America.

To attract new customers, Harley created the Rider’s Edge program in 2000, offering training for inexperienced riders through more than 160 dealers in 42 states. Last year, about 35,000 people took the course.

In an effort to make inroads with bikers in their 20s and 30s, Harley poured money into developing the V-Rod, a high-powered cruiser that starts at about $15,000. The company says the V-Rod is successful, but even so, the sport market represents only 12 percent of Harley’s sales, analysts say.

“Harley understands the baby-boomer consumer incredibly well, in a holistic sense,” says Gregory Carpenter, a marketing professor at the Kellogg School of Management at Northwestern. “But to grow and thrive, they must create a deep emotional connection with younger consumers.”

A DECADE ago, Harley executives made a decision that, along with the loan push, now appears to be a major contributor to its current problems. Determined to appease consumers who were stuck on two-year waiting lists, the company ramped up production. Last year, Harley built more than 303,000 bikes, up from 159,000 in 2000.

Some dealers also took advantage of heightened demand for Harleys to charge more, a move that may have done long-lasting harm. “Dealers were charging more than the suggested manufacturer price and it made Harley look greedy and jeopardized our brand that we spent a long time building,” Mr. Ziemer said.

Now, with so many Hogs in the marketplace, Harley has an issue involving its brand.

“Traditionally, Harley-Davidson had a very loyal consumer,” says Anthony Gikas, senior research analyst at Piper Jaffray. “But those riders lost interest in the brand because everyone has a Harley bike. It’s not a club anymore.”

To offset weakening sales, Harley is paring production this year, to about 270,000 bikes, and is shuttering two plants. In addition, the company will cut 1,100 of 9,000 jobs over the next two years.

To curb additional loan defaults, Harley adopted stricter credit standards in November, requiring buyers to put down 20 percent.

Motorcycle consultants and analysts argue that Harley should take more drastic steps, including beefing up efforts to court younger riders.

Making major changes isn’t easy, especially for a brand with an image so deeply ingrained in pop culture. Harley executives say they are committed to regaining their momentum.

“We’re encouraging our designers to think out of the box,” Mr. Ziemer said. “We have to be quicker, more responsive to what our customers want. And we will.”

No. no, no, no, no...

Loud Clutches Save Lives. :lol:*rattle rattle rattle*

I guess so, when you apply the front brake 100% and no rear, the linked brake supposedly applies something like 10-20% of force to the rear and vice versa. In other words you can't have 100% braking on the front or rear wheel and 0% on the rear, and the motorcycle safety experts @ Honda and other companies have deemed this a very desirable safety feature. The only people I hear ranting against this are track riding dudes, so maybe they have crazy m/c handling/braking skills guys like me don't have, which is very possible.

it also comes down to geometry. a modern sport bike will carry very little weight on its rear wheel when braking at the limit, when contrasted with say a HD or goldwing, etc. me? i dont touch the rear brake unless its wet or there is crap in the road, or im trying to adjust my line without standing the bike up. on MY bike, a proper 100% stop is almost a full weight transfer and touching the back brake more then a smidge will just lock it up. i've put a lot on miles on an aprilia rs250, a linked VFR800, an f4i, and the only bike ive used the rear brake on was a 1200 sportster.

this is my jalopy. i think i want to build an xs650 cafe racer now.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v33/fatallightning/DSC_6722.jpg

This was published in this morning's (3/23/09) Seattle Times. The wave of the future?


Startups invest millions in scooter market
By Susan Carpenter
Los Angeles Times

When it comes to electric vehicles, the Tesla Roadster and Chevrolet Volt get all the love. But there are other EVs rolling around, and they're balancing on two wheels.

Since 2007, when Vectrix of Middletown, R.I., first rode onto the scene with its battery-powered Maxi Scooter, a growing number of U.S. startups have entered the plug-in two-wheeler market. They've invested millions of dollars in vehicles, many of which are poised for production within a year.

Led by pioneers with impressive résumés, these companies predict growth despite the down economy, and they're laying claim to niche markets with such boasts as "first" and "fastest" as they stake out territory in what many believe is the future of transportation.

"It's amazing how inefficient the vehicles we're driving today really are," said Forrest North, founder and chief executive of Mission Motorsports, a San Francisco company that unveiled the prototype for its 150 mph, 150-mile-range electric motorcycle at the Technology, Entertainment, Design conference in Long Beach, Calif., last month.

"Electricity is just so many orders of magnitude more efficient that it's the only way to go," said North, a former mechanical designer with Tesla and leader of Stanford University's solar-car team in the mid-1990s.

Like many EV entrepreneurs, North, 33, had looked into hydrogen and biodiesel as power sources but found them impractical. Hydrogen is abundant, but turning it into fuel and developing a distribution infrastructure is costly. Biodiesel can take more energy to produce than it generates.

With electricity, the infrastructure already exists: Electrical outlets are abundant. Battery technology is also improving by about 8 percent each year, North said, allowing bikes to easily upgrade once the chemistry comes along. Already, electric two-wheelers get the equivalent of about 300 to 500 miles per gallon. As technologies improve, they'll be able to generate even more energy with less weight and cost.

Debut product

Billed as "the world's fastest production electric sport bike," Mission's debut product is called the Mission One. Scheduled to ship in early 2010, its estimated retail price is $68,000 — most of which is attributable to a large lithium-ion battery pack designed to compete with a gas-powered, performance-oriented sport bike.

It's the power-to-weight ratio of existing batteries that is, in part, driving development of electric two-wheelers.

Weighing less than 25 percent of a typical passenger car, two-wheeled scooters and motorcycles require fewer expensive batteries to bring them to speed. They are also simpler; they require fewer components and safety features; and they aren't subject to the stringent governmental requirements for passenger cars.

That makes two wheels a less-complicated and less-expensive entry point than cars for entrepreneurs, which is why electric two-wheelers also are coming on the market faster and more affordably than their four-wheeled brethren. The majority of available electric two-wheelers cost less than $10,000.

Vectrix was the first company to manufacture a production electric two-wheeler. Since introducing its $11,000, 62 mph Maxi Scooter in August 2007, it has unveiled a second model and sold more than 1,500 vehicles globally. While that isn't a lot compared with the millions of cars sold every year, it represents a 300 percent increase in annual sales from 2007 to 2008.

"Any time you bring a new technology to market, when you can horizontally grow that product, it validates to the consumer that it's a real technology," Vectrix Chief Executive Mike Boyle said. This spring, Vectrix will roll out a third scooter model, the $5,195, 30 mph VX-2.

Spring is also the launch date for two other electric two-wheelers — Zero Motorcycles' Zero S and Brammo Motorsports' Enertia. Like Vectrix, The S and Enertia are oriented toward the commuter market. Unlike Vectrix, they are motorcycles.

"The market is definitely getting excited for an electric motorcycle," said Neal Saiki, 42, founder of Zero Motorcycles in Santa Cruz, Calif. "It's going to grow really rapidly as people realize how practical and fun and fast these motorcycles are. They can be environmental and have fun."

Ex-NASA engineer

Zero was the second manufacturer, after Vectrix, to make a production electric two-wheeler.

Founded by Saiki, a former NASA engineer, and funded, in part, by former Sun Microsystems executive Gene Banman, who now is Zero's chief executive, Zero has sold 200 of its $7,500 Zero X models — an off-road electric motorcycle with a 50 mph maximum speed and 40-mile range off a single charge.

Craig Bramscher, of Brammo Motorsports in Ashland, Ore., says he raised $10 million in venture capital last year.

And when his 300 Enertia electric motorcycle rolls off the line in May, he's thinking his company will be aided by the $787 billion stimulus package.

The program includes a 10 percent tax credit on the purchase price of two- and three-wheeled electric vehicles with batteries generating at least 2.5 kilowatt hours of power.

"It seems like the right place, right time," said Bramscher, former owner of a software-technology firm. "A lot of people haven't forgotten we've got an oil problem."

2005 Kawasaki ZRX1200

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30122539&l=318f43402c&id=1328556091

2004 Ducati Monster S4R



http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30122542&l=e94162426e&id=1328556091

No. no, no, no, no...

Loud Clutches Save Lives. :lol:

Does somebody else have a dry clutch Ducati?

Does somebody else have a dry clutch Ducati?

I love the sound those bikes make. Both the clutch and the exhaust.

My "2nd" first motorcycle. Just started last spring. Next bike I might move to something besides a cruiser.
kari

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1106/3352381771_84366fd9f1.jpg