Advocacy & Safety - Stupid Government!

Our glorious, tax-and-spend Maryland government, assisted by their even more taxing-and-spending county government, have spent literally millions of dollars putting in traffic circles and "traffic control" devices on our neighborhood streets.

First, there was an intersection where five streets converged. It was controlled by traffic lights and, in 20 years of living in this area, I never saw or heard of one accident there. The governments decided to spend $1.5 million to take out the lights and install a traffic circle! Who knows why! Well, the original estimate was $1.5 million, but I am sure that it will go up, as do all such projects.

At the entrance to a small shopping mall in an area of townhomes, condos, and single-family homes, they removed the stop signs and installed another traffic circle. On this one, in an artsy-fartsy move, they put in cobblestones for the cross walks! To top it off, they sealed them with a very slick substance. Now, when it rains, you have to slow down to almost a crawl or you cycle leaves you! TThe cobblestones are so slick that if you try to cross them at anything less than 90 degrees, you will be on your rear end.

To top it off, they have put in "traffic control" devices along the sides of the road in the bicycle lanes! These are basically islands 20 feet long, four feet wide, and filled with plants that sit along both sides of the road. How they are supposed to control traffic is anyone's guess.

All they do is force cyclists into the street and the traffic. At the same time, they are spending a lot of money on hiker/biker trails and whining about a shortfall in tax revenues! One 1.3 mile section of the trail cost well over $1 million!

I for one would forego the bike trails if the money were used to cover the shortfall and if other special interests also gave up their projects. I would also be willing to pay $10 top $20 per year for a bicycle license or permit to use the trails, if the money went only to building and maintaining them.

Why are politicians so short sighted?

Those huge potted plant things are suppoed to control traffic by narrowing the road and as a result slowing down the traffic. FYI.

From the way you say, it seems a bit ridiculous, but really you kinda have to see the interesections they have replaced to get the full scope. Where I live they recently put in a new traffic circle, the setup before was kinda dangerous and the circle is much better (except for the reverse cambered corner that leads up to it).

Those huge potted plant things are suppoed to control traffic by narrowing the road and as a result slowing down the traffic. FYI.

From the way you say, it seems a bit ridiculous, but really you kinda have to see the interesections they have replaced to get the full scope. Where I live they recently put in a new traffic circle, the setup before was kinda dangerous and the circle is much better (except for the reverse cambered corner that leads up to it).

Ever squeeze a hose? The narrower you make the stream, the faster it goes. I bet it will work the same way with these "control" devices! Seriously, there is no way they can work in the way you suggest. I think that someone on the county council has a brother or cousin in the island business!

You should see the 5-way intersection with the traffic circle. It is a mess. Americans don't know how to drive in these things and there have been numerous near misses and actual fender-benders. Plus, according to the clerks in a stop and shop close by, they have heard some new, poly-syllabic curse words!

Those huge potted plant things are suppoed to control traffic by narrowing the road and as a result slowing down the traffic. FYI.

Seattle loves to put up traffic circles instead of stop signs, they have been for over thirty years now. They are expensive and do not work, people do not yield to each other, they use them improperly. Instead of going around them to the right they will go left if they are making a left turn Further more they are a hindrance to emergency vehicles.
When I was a youngster and they first started using these things it presented me with a challenge, just how fast could I slalom with my MGB they made a great race course. If you need to slow people down speed bumps and stop signs are much more effective and a heck of a lot cheaper.

Holy crap, ngateguy! Methinks that we have agreed on another subject!

:beer:

I for one would forego the bike trails if the money were used to cover the shortfall and if other special interests also gave up their projects. I would also be willing to pay $10 top $20 per year for a bicycle license or permit to use the trails, if the money went only to building and maintaining them.

Why are politicians so short sighted?

I would be willing too pay a licensing fee as long as they would go to the trailsand bike lanes, but I don't trust our state to do that The only reason I voted for the lottery in this state some 20 years ago was that it was all to go to education. Never happened it all goes into the general fund. Idaho has some trails they are starting to charge user fees for maintanence and hiring trail marshsalls its a great way to pay for all that without adding extra burden to your state budget. But people do not seem to want to do that , here they vote to cut taxes and then moan when they have to pay to park at a state park, or pay to use a boat launch.

Holy crap, ngateguy! Methinks that we have agreed on another subject!

:beer:

Scary ain't it :eek:

:beer:

[QUOTE=TrekRider]Ever squeeze a hose? The narrower you make the stream, the faster it goes. I bet it will work the same way with these "control" devices! Seriously, there is no way they can work in the way you suggest. I think that someone on the county council has a brother or cousin in the island business!
[QUOTE]

They absolutely do because think about it, if you have a lane that is 4 feet wider than your vehicule, you can drive very fast. IF that lane because 1 foot wider than your vehicule, you are going to slow down to make sure you don't damage your vehicule. I know I do.

IF that lane because 1 foot wider than your vehicule, you are going to slow down to make sure you don't damage your vehicule. I know I do.

Spire. I was hit by a car in October in livermoore, CA. They've installed one of these cirlces. The car moved into the bike lane to avoid it.

Pretty smart thinking eh? Make the traffic slow down? No, makes them swing wide.. there's a "driver's margin of error".. called a bike lane..

Spire. I was hit by a car in October in livermoore, CA. They've installed one of these cirlces. The car moved into the bike lane to avoid it.

Pretty smart thinking eh? Make the traffic slow down? No, makes them swing wide.. there's a "driver's margin of error".. called a bike lane..

Remeber, he said the these "flower pots" covered the entire road.


Forget the bike lanes for this little example, say you had a road that narrowed from 4 feet wider than your cars to 1 foot wider, would you slow down? I would.

On this one, in an artsy-fartsy move, they put in cobblestones for the cross walks! To top it off, they sealed them with a very slick substance. Now, when it rains, you have to slow down to almost a crawl or you cycle leaves you! TThe cobblestones are so slick that if you try to cross them at anything less than 90 degrees, you will be on your rear end.

Notify the state that these cobblestones are a hazzard to bicyclists and motorcyclists, and do it in writing. Depending on the laws of your state, once the state has been notified in writing that a hazzard exists if they do nothing to correct it that can be construed as gross negligence and they are liable if later on someone is injured by a situation they knew was dangerous.

On the other hand, some states passed laws to get themselves off the hook even for gross negligence...

I am not a lawyer, not legal advice yadda yadda,

Jester

Notify the state that these cobblestones are a hazzard to bicyclists and motorcyclists, and do it in writing. Depending on the laws of your state, once the state has been notified in writing that a hazzard exists if they do nothing to correct it that can be construed as gross negligence and they are liable if later on someone is injured by a situation they knew was dangerous.

On the other hand, some states passed laws to get themselves off the hook even for gross negligence...

I am not a lawyer, not legal advice yadda yadda,

Jester

This all has been tied in Seattle to no avail they still put the damn things up the leaders in Seattle (in their never ending quest to be a "World class city") think they make the neighborhoods nicer. Even the fire department has tried to get them to stop them when they install these on narrow streets they have no choice but to drive up over them knocking over the signs in the middle of them. It slows down aid cars rushing to emergencies still they build them (2 just this year on my route I use for my commute)

Next year, Encinitas, under the spell of consultant Michael Wallwork, plans to convert four intersections to traffic circles. I remain skeptical ...

Look kids...Big Ben, Parliament!

Look kids...Big Ben, Parliament!

lmao exactly.

i don't know anyone who likes these things, but somehow they keep going up here too. americans don't even know how to drive at normal 4 way intersections, so i don't know why the city thinks this way is safer!

I personally don't have a problem with traffic circles because, in theory, when used correctly traffic should flow. They have actually reduced my commute time and when there is no other traffic around, they are fun to slalom around. :D

Everybody yields to those on their left and once you're in the circle, for gawd's sake, DON'T STOP! I'm not sure what is so hard to grasp about this but for most North American's it is a very foreign concept. Dual laned traffic circles on the other hand....

Having said that, I don't believe they are safe for cyclists and I am alarmed at the increasing trend towards so called 'traffic calming' devices that make it more dangerous for cyclists. Our inner city neighbourhoods are fond of using traffic calming measures such as reduced lane widths, curb extensions (chicanes for bikes) and traffic islands. Car drivers are anything but calm after encountering these stupid things and now they are forced to share one lane with a bike. Who do you think is going to lose out on this?

Traffic planners who believe this crap is good for anybody but the elite neighbourhoods (who really just want the traffic to go somewhere else) need to pull their heads out of their collective a$$ and try commuting by bike on some of their own handywork. Maybe then they would get it.

Regarding the traffic circle thing (roundabouts in Aus):

They're generally not designed as traffic calming devices, although I have seen them used as such. Where they're replacing a traffic light, the intent is give better traffic flow throught the intersection. All that is required is that people learn to use them properly. This seems to have happened here. Why is the US, who presumably have been building them longer than Australia, finding them to have such an insurmountable learning curve?

As a cyclist, the best way to approach them is to take the lane. Every time. Start moving into the lane before reaching the intersection. You need to be fully in control of the lane by the time you reach the stop line. I don't let people overtake me in the roundabout any more.

Multilane roundabouts are a slightly different story, but still safely negotiable if everyone follows the rules. Apparently that 'if' is causing problems over there, but that's less the fault of the design that the people using it.

Regarding the traffic circle thing (roundabouts in Aus):

They're generally not designed as traffic calming devices, although I have seen them used as such. Where they're replacing a traffic light, the intent is give better traffic flow throught the intersection. All that is required is that people learn to use them properly. This seems to have happened here. Why is the US, who presumably have been building them longer than Australia, finding them to have such an insurmountable learning curve?

As a cyclist, the best way to approach them is to take the lane. Every time. Start moving into the lane before reaching the intersection. You need to be fully in control of the lane by the time you reach the stop line. I don't let people overtake me in the roundabout any more.

Multilane roundabouts are a slightly different story, but still safely negotiable if everyone follows the rules. Apparently that 'if' is causing problems over there, but that's less the fault of the design that the people using it.

Agreed - roundabouts aren't exactly a difficult concept.

As for traffic calming measures, it's a question of design - they can be beneficial for cyclists if well designed.

Agreed - roundabouts aren't exactly a difficult concept.

As for traffic calming measures, it's a question of design - they can be beneficial for cyclists if well designed.

There are only a couple of roundabouts I know of in the area but we have tons of the calming messures they are a danger, no one yields to anyone at those things anymore whether it be a car or cycle.

Why is the US, who presumably have been building them longer than Australia, finding them to have such an insurmountable learning curve?

what are the license requirements in australia? here licenses are given out like halloween candy. it's not that i think the traffic circles are inherently unsafe, it's that drivers in this country are horrible and don't even know the rules that were already in force.

some of this is apathy ... but it's a bit more complex than that because the vast majority of drivers never had education about circles - they got their licenses before circles existed. and since they won't ever have to retest, they never will.

what are the license requirements in australia? here licenses are given out like halloween candy. it's not that i think the traffic circles are inherently unsafe, it's that drivers in this country are horrible and don't even know the rules that were already in force.

Here in Queensland drivers are absolutely hopeless. Far worse than anywhere else in this country I've ventured, yet this aspect doesn't seem to be a major problem. One thing I've noticed around here is that many of the lanes leading up to them have arrows painted on the road telling drivers where they should be - is this not the case in the US? As Allister said above, if you move into the lane *before* the roundabout, you'll generally be OK (and certainly fare much better than if you try to stay in a disappearing "bike lane").


some of this is apathy ... but it's a bit more complex than that because the vast majority of drivers never had education about circles - they got their licenses before circles existed. and since they won't ever have to retest, they never will.

The answer is to simply provide this education. Force people to retest if necessary. After all, I have to maintain my skills in my profession - why should this be any different?

what are the license requirements in australia? here licenses are given out like halloween candy. it's not that i think the traffic circles are inherently unsafe, it's that drivers in this country are horrible and don't even know the rules that were already in force.

some of this is apathy ... but it's a bit more complex than that because the vast majority of drivers never had education about circles - they got their licenses before circles existed. and since they won't ever have to retest, they never will.

I've always been of the opinion that the drivers actually DO know the rules, and could care less.

My neighborhood is about to experience a street widening (which I find irrititating because it may increase traffic on the street I live on, take away trees, increase driver arrogance, perhaps, which is quite high at times on the street, and even eliminate part of the front yard.)
They were going to propose a plethora of traffic calming measures to get the thing done.(to build the new structures)

This was called to mind by what was said above.(about ineffectual measures for traffic calming and roundabouts, etc.)
The plan for our neighborhood was to make the street an entrance to the country club. I hope this is still not the case.

I think that there is a place for traffic calming measures, but they need to be utilized in such a way as to take into account the way the street can possibly be used optimally, not just to avoid a lawsuit by the people who may happen to have the ability to both win a lawsuit and get what is needed for the street to operate harmoniously(actually not just a lawsuit by these people but one by some or any others), ie there should be no accidents and in addition compliance with the overall goals that the street in particular was originally designed for and also with the purposes of a street in mind, that is , safe, smooth, and serene passage of all passengers, motorists, cyclists, and pedestrians.

Jacob

212. "The only way to people the earth with the vigorous and creative generation it needs is to make free will secure, to allow the spirit to live in its seductive original shape, not to dim virgin natures with the imposition of alien prejudice, to let those natures choose what is useful for themselves without confusing them or pushing them along in a rut."

-Jose Marti, Cuban writer
from : Thoughts/Pensamientos A Bilingual Anthology by Carlos Ripoll Queens College, N.Y. Las Americas Publishing Company, New York