Bicycle Mechanics - several questions about upgrade bike and building wheel

Dear folks.
I am a frequent reader here. I have a mongoose pro crossway hybrid bike and it has a cro-mo frame and 36 spokes wheels. I admit that it is not a bike from LBS, I had it from Academy. It is a 21 speed bike, seven speed free wheel. I have used this bike for every thing, buying groceries, commuting 20 miles round trip, five days a week, I am in Austin, TX where Lance Armstrong also lives and there are rolling hills everywhere. I had a two plus year car-less life and that was wonderful, I believe that by not having a car for two years saved me 3000$. I have to purchase a car because my first daughter has come to this world this March. Still I commute every day by bike though the commuting distance is down to 14 miles every day, not enough for a exercise but a refreshing experience. I do all the bike maintenances by myself, lube chain, service bottom bracket, service hub, truing wheels, et cetra. OK, Enough for my personal history and now these are my questions.

I found out a very good online shop which has a lot good deals of bicycle parts.

http://aebike.com/site/intro.cfm

First, I want to build two 27” wheel myself and the hub I am going to use is Shimano Sora

http://aebike.com/site/page.cfm?PageID=30&SKU=HU3362
Shimano
Sora FH3300 36 hole rear hub (HU3362)
$24.99



http://aebike.com/site/page.cfm?PageID=30&SKU=HU3366
Shimano
Sora HB3300 36 hole Front Hub (HU3366)
$13.99

I can see that it will use cassette.

Question 1 But does that real hub takes seven speed cassette? and does my 7 speed bike frame takes that rear hub?
Question 2 What about the hub seals, Are they sealed one or loose ball bearing, I like loose ball bearing because that is the only hub maintenance I have done before.
Question3 I also want to convert this hub to oil lubrication instead of grease lubrication according to John Forester’s method (drill a hole in the middle of the hub and later only inject lubrication oil (3 parts of white gas and one part auto transmission oil) and then use metal ring to block the hole. Does the hub, even it is loose ball bearing, hold the oil.

Question 4 when I am building wheels, I am going to use this rim

http://aebike.com/site/page.cfm?PageID=30&SKU=RM8484A

Sun AT-18 27" 36 HoleSilver rim (RM8484A)
$11.99
Color: Silver
Erd: 618
Rim Depth (mm): 15.5
Weight (grams): 505
Holes: 36
Size / ETRTO: 27" (630mm)
Width: 22.5

The pattern will be three cross, how could I get the proper length of the spoke, Or may be just go to LBS to buy spokes. They cost 50c each, considering the 36 spoke per wheel that is still around 40 bucks. By the way, any one knows the cheap spoke I could buy on the web. I know that the front hub takes same spoke length both side, and real hub take different spoke length on driving side and none driving side. The length of driving side is shorter than that of non driving side. Is the spoke length of non driving side of the real wheel the same as the spoke length of front wheel?

Question5 Since my bike now is seven speed, does my frame takes Sora real hub? Maybe the sora now only goes into 8-9 speed bike frame.

Question6 I also want to change my crankset to

http://aebike.com/site/page.cfm?PageID=30&SKU=CR7382

Shimano
FC-M440 170mm 22-32-44 tooth Crankset (CR7382)
$31.99
BCD: 64/104
Color: Black
Length: 170
Rings: 22-32-44
Spindle Width: 110/113

How do I measure the spindle length?

Question 7 Final question, I want to change my front and real shifter to
http://aebike.com/site/page.cfm?PageID=30&SKU=LD8874
Shimano
Shimano ST-EF28 7spd brk/shift levers, black (LD8874)
$20.99

could anybody go to the web page to take a look that price is for a pair of brake/shifter level (rear and front) or just a single real one. Thank again.



leilin

If you can find out the width between your dropouts you should be able to tell weather or not the hubs will fit. Also, I believe there is a Sora rear hub that will accept a 7 speed cassett but I do not know if that is the one. Check the Shimano site.


By the way, any one knows the cheap spoke I could buy on the web

Spokes are one item you should not skimp on. You want to be able to rely on your wheels to hold up if you were to hit a pot hole or any significant bump.
There is a chance with cheeper spokes that they will fail and even at 5mph that could cause you a world of hurt. Especialy on the street. You would not want a wheel to fail and cause you to swerve into traffic. That could be deadly. Also being longer they will tend to flex more which could also cause them to fail.


How do I measure the spindle length?

In mm from end to end or look on the bb you have now, it may have the size/length on it.

:beer:

Check out www.dtswiss.com they have a on-line calculator.. also check out the wheelbuilding at Sheldonbrown's web site. There is some links in their to web sites to figure out spoke length also.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html

Stick with Sapim, wheelsmith or DT swiss spokes.

As for the wheels, I know it would mean you have to buy new tires, but in the long run probably best option to go 700c since it is the standard now and will be alot easier to find tires and you'll have alot more options. I would also suggest you go up to the 105 hubs, but I realize that would increase the cost about $30 just in hubs but they will probably last years longer so in long run will pay off.

You could also get a inexpensive prebuilt wheelset like this one. For around $70 the spacing for current 8/9sp hubs is 130mm while your current hub is 126mm. Since you said it is freewheel you will also have to buy a new cassette and a spacer then the cassette will fit no problem. YOu're frame since chromoly should spread no problems the extra 4mm.
http://www.nashbar.com/profile.cfm?category=131&subcategory=1197&brand=&sku=9387&storetype=&estoreid=


Nashbar also has some great deals at times and check web for coupons alot of times they have coupons for 5-20% off you're order.

As for the BB get out a caliper and measure it is easiest way, I would probably just replace it they are only $20.

Since you are replacing so much you could just upgrade to 9sp also for not alot more.. Only thing you are really missing is the rear derailleur, since you are buying new crank, new shifters, new cassette.

Why would you build 27" rims onto a bike designed for 700c rims? The brakes won't work, and there won't be any clearance under the fork crown.
From what you've written, it's obvious you don't know enough yet to start this project. Study up more before you start building.

Dave why do you think it currently has 700c wheels, he did not really mention year or anything else about the bike to lead me to believe it currently had 700c wheels.

without speaking for him...he may be using '27' as generic term just like I tell people at work I have a mountain bike and a '10-speed'

Miami sucks for riding?

I'm up here in Broward... Are you going to ride in the SBW century?

On topic:

Seven speed will probably need to get a spacer from aebike

http://aebike.com/site/page.cfm?PageID=30&SKU=FW8400


But then again you could just use an 8-speed cassette and then just tune the bike to only use the top 7 gears.

I would also consider just buying pre-built wheels. If youve never built up a wheel yourself this can be a trying task. You will have to know how to do many things like pre-stress the spokes and such.

I would recommend if you want to learn to build up wheels you do it step-wise. I started building up my wheels by re-building existing wheels. For example when rims wore out or spokes start breaking frequently , I would order the entire spoke set that matched the rim/hub and rebuild the wheel.

If the wheel is indeed a 27inch and not a 700C then you may need to build it up yourself if you want to use a free-hub design. I don't know any places that sell true 27inch wheels with 7/8speed free-hubs.

A lot of good info above. if you do build your wheels yourself, take your time and be sure to do it right. If the front wheel fails you could find yourself flying over the bars!

Dear Folks. Thank you all very much for the kindly replies. A lot of advices concerns about the wheel size. I am actually using the 700 wheel, but still I want build 27" wheel. I know that 700 has the diameter of 622mm and 27" has diameter of 630mm. (from URL http://www.sheldonbrown.com/tire-sizing.html) So I figured that the difference between the these two is 8mm, when accommodating brake, I already checked my V-brake and I believe that the brake can be moved up 4mm (diameter/2 is the distance to be moved up with)

Fro the question why I build 27” instead of 700c, I am building wheels just for fun plus I have ridden bikes which all have 700c or 26” wheels and I do not have the experience of riding 27” wheel. Plus my commuting distance will soon shorten to mere 6 miles a day and I guess after building the 27” wheel I can buy tire 27”x1 1/8 inch from Academy for 7$ each. Even though they are heavy, it will increase the excersise intensity of short commuting distance and those tires look last forever. by the way I found out today that Mongoose Hybrid bike Crossway, my current is on sale now, 21 spds, 700 Alex 36 spaoke wheel, cro-mo frame and aroud 29 lb, Price? 118$ plus tax, a REAL GOOD deal and I wish I had space to accommodate another bike for just tweak with!

For the question: Why I don’t get the bike to 8-9 speed since I am changing a lot on the bike? IMHO (In my humble opinion) I even believe that 18 speed is already enough for the daily commuting, so I have no intention for upgrade to more gears. By the way I am lay back person and I do not race at all. Also I feel really good and have fun to pass by I35 frontage road around afternoon rash hour to see people in big SUVs sitting in the I35 and tapping their horns and I am happily whistling and quickly passing by, not only I save big chuck of money but also I am getting high and exercises.

Below is my current gear set up (700 wheel)

free wheel is 34 24 21 19 17 15 13
chain rings are 28 38 48

22.2, 31.5, 36, 39.8, 44.5, x, x,

x, 42.8, 48.9, 54, 60.4, 68.4, x,

x, x, 61.7, 68.2, 76.2, 86.4, 99.7,

Most gears are well enough except for the lowest and second lowest which has a jump form 22” to 31.5”. In all the Texan hills this is not very comfortable when my bike is 29lb and I usually load the bike to almost 45 lb.

Below is the gear I want to later to modify

freewheel is 34 24 21 18 15 13 11
chain rings are 22 32 44

17.5, 24.8, 28.3, 33, 39.6, x, x,


x, 36, 41, 48, 57.6, 66.5, x,


x, x, 56.6, 66, 79.2, 91.4, 108,

This gear system has a low gear increment 17”, 25” 28” and 33”. Compared with the previous gear system, I will have one even lower gear at 17” compared with 22” and two more gears, 25” and 28” before goes to 33”, on the previous set up gear jumps from 22” directly to 31.5.

I do not know any one of your guys have toured with such gears set up. For my five years commuting experience at hilly terrains in Austin TX, I found out that small increment of low gears are more important than the high gears increment because you are at very low speed (around 4-5 m/h) when in low gear and around 20 M/h when you at top gear.

All have said though, I do have intension later on to build a gear system for my bike with Many, Many gears, namely 63 speeds for a bike. I learned from bike wizard Sheldon Brown that he has built a 63 speed bike and I want follow his footsteps and build one too. I already located the parts for this project, SRAM 7 speed rear hub with three speed internal gears. Need to build wheel again. If counting the three chain rings in the front it will be 63 speeds. My only concern right now is the internal friction of the hub gear. I read books published five years ago that efficiency of hub gear range from around 90% in most direct gear to 75% to it indirect gear. Compare to the ideal derailleur system’s 98% efficiency, there are a lot of frication there.

Finally I want to report you guys that I am going to build two real panniers for the cost no high than 20$. Two school back packs that were on sale at Walmart for 10$, two writing pad for 2$ (they are used inside of the back pack as reinforcement). I found in HomeDepot, two metal brackets and some bolts and nuts 3$ and one bungee cord, 1$. I plan to first fix writing pad on the side of the bag, then fix two metal brackets on the bag and pad. Also drill two holes on the bag and pad, cut bungee cord into two separated pieces, insert cutting end of the bungee cord into holes of the bag and pad, tide a knot on the end of the bungee cord so it will not slip out. Do the same thing to the other half of the bungee cord, then you have two elastic cords to hook on the bottom of the rack, plus two metal bracket, they will fix back pack bag tightly on the bicycle.

Cost for two bags 10 dollars

Cost for two pads 2 dollars

Cost for metal brackets 3 dollars

Cost for one bungee cord 1 dollars

Price total for two BIG panniers, 16 dollars. Price for making something instead shopping ($$$), priceless.

By the way I found out that those bags are at least not smaller than the largest panniers you would pay around 200$.

But they are not Water Proof, NO problem change the back bags to two plastic containers for kids play at Walmart. They are sturdy plastic containers with good lid on them and costs 4$ each, the only modification for that is using aluminum bar to reinforce the holes that attach metal brackets and possibly bungee cords. You now get two water proof containers for under 20 dollars. I will post my home made panniers and containers when I am done. Now I am in the deadline mode and quite busy.

Finally. nobody answered my question about converting grease lubricated hub into oil lubricated ones. Well the question is about the hub. Is Shimano Sora hub a sealed one or non sealed one, If I convert it into oil lubrication, does the hub hold the oil?

Thanks again for every body and I wish all have a good weekend.

leilin

I stil don't understand why you are going with 27" it is a oddball standard now and not really supported near as much. Yes you can get tires at wallmart if they have them ins tock which is not all the time anymore since they mainly carry bikes with 26" wheels. You are correct it is only 4mm difference. Since you already have tires in 700c, if you want some inexpensive 700c you can find them easily for $7-9 at a LBS or on-line. Difference in ride from 700c to 27" would not be noticeble, just in future you might not find 27" as easily as you do right now, and different types of tires also is very limited. Of course that would be my same reasoning to go with 8-9sp just for future parts availability.

As for the sora hubs I believe they are sealed just not the best , hubs used to be oil lubricated many many moons ago :) THey had a oil port to put oil in, oil would wear out ALOT quicker so you would have to constantly maintain the hubs. Technicaly you could do it, but why? The seals really are not designed to hold in something as thin as oil might do a decent job hard to tell. You would want to reoil them alot more frequently then you woudl regrease and repack your hubs.

Yea, you should seriously consider buying pre-built wheels, as building a strong and durable wheel takes time and practice. In the long run, it will be less frustrating and cheap to just buy a prebuilt set.

Leave him alone and don't ride behind him.

A friend of mine, who unfortunatly or fortunatly as you may take from my post, is not riding any more.

He use to kludge up all kind of bike stuff in the name of making it himself. He would spend lots of time shopping for those tid-bits to build up the widget to which he would end up with something that looked like but did not perform like the part you could buy.

His "panniers" were made from nap-sacks or video camera bags. To give them form he stucked in plastic buckets. This gave the appearance of function because they had form. Unfortunatly I spent an entire credit-card ride following him and stopping as his "widgets" kept falling apart or rolling into his rear wheel.

The kinda reasoning to stay with 7-speed is kinda the same. I can see not going to 9-10 speed but to try to stay with the old because there would be an extra gear is not a good argument.

I use the extra gears to smooth out my cadence. When I do steep climbs I put on a 9-speed 13x32 cassette to give me better low end torque. For the flats of Florida I run a 12x23. Don't even really need the 12. But I would keep the 9speed and change the 12 to a 13 if I were to make a custom cassette for the flats.

Instead of tinker I customize. Instead of steeping backwards, try to improve the forwards. Instead of going with 27s, go with 700 and 48 spoke wheels.

If you are going to make your own Panniers dont buy your parts from K-Mart. Go to a ulpholstery shop and do it right.

In the meantime... Give him room... He is tinkering and a tinkered bike is likely to spit out something into your path... I know from experenice! Hey what is that stuff falling out of the bag... Wholy cow he's burning a hole in the kmart bag because his rear tire is rubbing on it!

Yikes loook ooouuutt!!

P.S. You can get 28mm (1-1/4) for 700C too! And for that cheap $7 price if you shop around (I know you can get 26mm tires from Performance for around $12)

Preston, its gppd to hear from a fellow South Floridian. No, I will not be riding the century. I broke my hand 6 weeks ago and haven't been a bike since.

On topic: save yourself the aggravation and stick with the 700c.

Sora is cone races. This means it is really a open hub. This means a thin oil would run out.

Sometimes for racing, the mechanics will put in oil instead of grease to make things faster but you would have to re-oil your wheels often.

Why oil?

Never mind. Not sure I want to know. Perhaps you need to get those little oiler cups they use on those gas-single-cylinder engines built in the 1900s.

Last comment: 700C, buy waterproof pannier or heck just get a BOB trailer. If you want to build the wheels yourself get sealed Phill Wood hubs with 48 spokes (so when you carry bricks home in those two huge buckets your wheels won't pretzel) and go with 36mm tires! Or better yet go with those schwalbe Big Apple 50mm tires!!! And slowly upgrade your bike to 8-speed without whining about an extra gear that you may find could save your knees when you are pulling that BOB full of bricks!

I have a set of phil wood hubs they are great but expensive :) If you build your own wheels would also be worth the money to have a LBS mechanic check out the wheels afterwards you don't want something that important all of a sudden breaking in middle of nowhere or causing a bad crash. You can buy a low end wheelset 700c for $100 to build one will be atleast that or more.

You mention you did not need more gears then the 7sp but then you want to build a 63 speed.. :) GOtta poke holes in your theory for staying with 7 :)

again thank you all about advices. this question is just for Prestonib, You said that Sora is cone races, the other said that Sora is sealed but not the best. My question is

1. Is the Sora hub really sealed.
2. if it is sealed, could it be taken apart just as other cone race hub and later adjusted and relubbed.

Thanks again


Sora is cone races. This means it is really a open hub. This means a thin oil would run out.

Sometimes for racing, the mechanics will put in oil instead of grease to make things faster but you would have to re-oil your wheels often.

Why oil?

Never mind. Not sure I want to know. Perhaps you need to get those little oiler cups they use on those gas-single-cylinder engines built in the 1900s.

Last comment: 700C, buy waterproof pannier or heck just get a BOB trailer. If you want to build the wheels yourself get sealed Phill Wood hubs with 48 spokes (so when you carry bricks home in those two huge buckets your wheels won't pretzel) and go with 36mm tires! Or better yet go with those schwalbe Big Apple 50mm tires!!! And slowly upgrade your bike to 8-speed without whining about an extra gear that you may find could save your knees when you are pulling that BOB full of bricks!

Shimano has a complete breakdown/exploded view of the hubs you can view, it shoes left and right hand seal rings whcih to me means they are sealed but I could be missreading it.
http://bike.shimano.com/services/tech_info_b.asp?cat=Road&pg=Sora

Well OK I kinda over stepped what was being said.

What I shoulda done was the Shedon Brown two step and said something more detailed. Instead I went for the simple rule that most people think cartridge bearings when they think sealed, and they think cone when they think unslealed. So here is the deal:

Sora is CONE races but it has cheap rubber seals to help keep the crud out.

So yes it is sealed bearings but it is also cone races which means they are not "sealed cartridge bearings".

Sorry for the confusion. Kev beat me to the posting of the Sora tech specs.

For Leilin:

Yes and Yes. The SORA is somewhat sealed, not like sealed cartridge bearings... And it is cone races which means that replacing the races in the hub are like not worth it.

There are several other hubs that use sealed cartridge bearings which you could also replace the grease with oil and theadjustment is not so required nor when they wear out do you have to re-lace your wheel with a new hub.