what an off-topic diatribe.

Allister, john seems to take issue with my infrastructure stance. perhaps the new accomodationalist memes threatens johns tired old memes.

Accomodations aside, I take issue with the old forestor ec memes of:

riding like a road sneak changing lanes in high speed traffic,
endorsing the ambiguous road position of riding the stripe betweeen two lanes of faster traffic,
not taking the lane on rural highspeed roads,
or that negotation is impossible with traffic moving 15mph greater than the cyclist.

That type of second class positioning needs to be updated with new memes regards sharing lanes with traffic. that standard lanes are generally too narrow to be shared unequivocally with traffic, and some claim to the lane is needed for most road scenarios with standard width lanes.

riding to the side in narrow lanes can lead to close passes. riding between two lanes of traffic is an abberant, unvehicular position.

there were some much better examinations of bicycling memes evolution in this thread.

Really replacing the old memes is going to require some change wherein folks evaluate cycling as a higher order means of transportation then using a car.

Folks will have to treasure cycling; will have to hold bikes in a higher light then as a "toy."

The only way I can see something like this happening is if something like carbon penalties are enacted on the auto... or the price of gasoline goes way through the roof.

NYC is about to implement congestion fees similar to London, cycling may become a cherished form of transit in those cities... eventually.

But as long as the motor car rules, and as long as cycling is considered as something "lower class" by the majority of the population... expect us to be treated in the same manner... no matter what the laws say.

The debate between you [Beck] and John reminds me of when I moved to NYC from Phoenix AZ. My defensive driving sensibilities absolutely went through the roof. The subtle change in the "rules of the road" are markedly different in NYC for drivers of automobiles.

A friend of mine explained it this way: In the south the rules are based on courtesy (first come, first served) and in the north the rules are based on inertia (who has the greater momentum has the greater right of way.)

Once I got a clue about the "think" behind driving in NYC driving there was really no different then driving elsewhere but without an understanding of the different memes, NYC drivers ARE crazy!

My observations from riding my bike all over Maryland is that in most of our rural counties there is no motivation to take the lane, while in some suburban areas riding on the right is almost equivalent to being suicidal.

So for me it is not old vs new, but situational or area memes that are different.

i think johns ec methodology is subpar regardless of traffic or road scenario, human car. he shrouds his own inadequacies surrounding traffic cycling in his ec methodology.

"Ride like a road sneak!" I mean, really! how UN VEHICULAR!

i think johns ec methodology is subpar regardless of traffic or road scenario, human car. he shrouds his own inadequacies surrounding traffic cycling in his ec methodology.

"Ride like a road sneak!" I mean, really! how UN VEHICULAR!

Sadly even motorists are "road sneaks." I saw a pick up driver this morning too impatient to wait for the left lane to clear... so he drove with the left tires on the cement center island, in an effort to bypass the traffic in the left lane... he was heading to a strip mall... hardly requiring "immediate" access. :rolleyes: (I'd bet he was heading to starbucks...)

Granted John seems to be contrary to any position we take, if we say ride to the right, John will say take the lane, if we say take the lane, John will say ride to the right. Not to mention his sense of vehicular seems to vary according to his whims.

Anyway, lately I have been fascinated by the interaction between courtesy, jerks, safe and unsafe driving on our roadways. It used to be there was more courtesy on the roads by offering opportunity for a fellow road user to take the space in front of your car but as the jerks started to take advantage of that people have decreased their safe following distance to discourage the jerks from unsafely trying to squeeze in. So I have seen a decrease in courtesy (you could ascribe the lack of courtesy as being a jerk) and a increase in unsafe driving practices but I will speculate that the overall safety of the roads have remained ~constant as there is this sort of trade off between one kind of unsafe practice with another unsafe practice to maintain a sense of fairness to the roadways.

I sort of see being VC as being a bit of jerk to prevent other people from being more of a jerk and decrease our safety, somewhat similar to decreasing the following distance while driving in a car. So while the lack of courtesy is tolerated by amoung motorists it seems that cyclists are supposed to be exemplary in their courtesy even to the extent of being willing to jeopardizing their own safety.

Courtesy is highly subjective, rules and laws cannot capture or enforce courtesy for motorists, so being a jerk motorist can be the most lawful behavior for motorists while for cyclists it seems the rules and laws are often bent to say that we must be courteous over our safety. This is often behind the debates here on A&S, is a cyclists at fault for riding too far to the right (for being courteous) or is the cyclists at fault for holding their line in traffic (not being courteous.) It seems to me too often people look at a cycling accident and ask if the cyclist violated a courtesy meme, and if yes the cyclists is at fault; then they ask if the cyclist violate safety meme, if yes the cyclists is at fault; then they ask if the cyclist violate the law, if yes the cyclists is at fault. This process is highly slanted to find the cyclists almost always at fault.

When someone like John asserts that we should be courteous over being safe that concerns me as I feel this over stress that cyclists must be courteous over all else on car centric roads is a major problem.

Granted John seems to be contrary to any position we take, if we say ride to the right, John will say take the lane, if we say take the lane, John will say ride to the right. Not to mention his sense of vehicular seems to vary according to his whims.


^^ and I thought it was me getting confused. I thought I'd smelled moving goalposts.

Bek, you may be err, confrontational, but you are certainly consistent and asking sensible questions IMHO :)

In the context helmet head described it, these memes are cultural views?

what is the difference between American and Danish or German memes surrounding bicycling?


Cycling participation in Europe began to fall after WWII as postwar reconstruction coupled with the availibility of the motorcar . In Denmark, authorities reversed the erosion with implemntation of a series of social policies and engineering enhancements to bicycling. Bicycling participation rebounded.

In 21st century consideration of bicycling many cities and countries take a more proactive and enculcating approach and show both a high bike modal share and a low accident rate. Path networks are cleared of snow before roads in some communities, traffic signals are timed at 'green wave' bicyclist speed, and ample public space is devoted to movement by bike.

What are the cultural memes that define American bicycling? how do they differ from European bicycling memes?

In the context helmet head described it, these memes are cultural views?

what is the difference between American and Danish or German memes surrounding bicycling?


Cycling participation in Europe began to fall after WWII as postwar reconstruction coupled with the availability of the motorcar . In Denmark, authorities reversed the erosion with implementation of a series of social policies and engineering enhancements to bicycling. Bicycling participation rebounded.

In 21st century consideration of bicycling many cities and countries take a more proactive and inculcating approach and show both a high bike modal share and a low accident rate. Path networks are cleared of snow before roads in some communities, traffic signals are timed at 'green wave' bicyclist speed, and ample public space is devoted to movement by bike.

What are the cultural memes that define American bicycling? how do they differ from European bicycling memes?

The laws in some European countries are such that motorists are held responsible for any accidents they may be involved in. It is not a matter of guilt until proven otherwise, but more a matter of an extension of the "privilege" viewpoint that says that you are responsible for what you do with your vehicle. Further, the licensing requirements are tougher as well as higher fees for auto ownership.

In America, it is almost a given that anyone can get and hold a driver's license, not to mention the cultural "worship" of the auto.

In Oulu I saw firsthand the results of that cultural shift, where well constructed bike paths were given priority over streets for cars... the cars were given the longer routes to get from A to B and the cyclists were given the short routes. Motorists had to loop around the city center to get to some places, where as bike paths were routed right to the city center and the bike/ped mall in that center. Cars were parked in lots around the city center and folks walked in.

Memes are the cultural counterpart of genes. One thing that impresses me with some European transplants that come here is the difference in the scale of walkability and bikeability. In Europe it seems that you walk a mile, bike 5 miles and use the car for trips further. In America it seems few are willing to walk a block or bike a mile and since few things are worth going to in that distance most just drive.

It seems to me that in America by over stressing the minimum exercise people should do, the minimum has become the maximum that people can do.

Another European difference that I have heard about is that a motorists is automatically at fault if they hit a pedestrian or cyclist. To me this helps establish that the roads are not just for cars and the roads should be safe for pedestrians and cyclists. In MD we had a Manslaughter by vehicle bill in that would give the courts an option of higher fines and jail time for anyone who kills another in criminally negligent manner. The bill did not fly, a traffic accident is just a accident and that's that.

Here are two ways to change the memes...

http://www.qbp.com/commuting.html
http://www.bikingbis.com/blog/_archives/2008/4/8/3626398.html

Couple these "reward" ideas with the rising cost of gas... who knows.

i think johns ec methodology is subpar regardless of traffic or road scenario, human car. he shrouds his own inadequacies surrounding traffic cycling in his ec methodology.

"Ride like a road sneak!" I mean, really! how UN VEHICULAR!


I read this whole thing believe it or not and I just want to say SHUT THE **** UP MY FRIEND! SHUT THE **** UP!

"road sneaks! road sneaks! what's the right speed?! whats the right speed?!" SHUT THE **** UP MY FRIEND! STOP EXAGGERATING! YOU'RE KILLING ME SMALLS!


I dont even remember what you were complaining about but the whining and the trolling AAARRRRRGGGGGHHHHH!!! see what you made me do? now I am trolling myself......I'm gonna get banned for this ****. but I felt it had to be said

Please BEkologist ......I can't take another "road sneak" comment.....please no more.....I promise I will never return here, just let me leave with my sanity....

http://youtube.com/watch?v=hVuL5d9MMkM

Note do to a posting by JF on his site this topic is continued here: http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=490445

I can't take another "road sneak" comment.....please no more.....

I can't resist this ... http://www.homestarrunner.com/sneakvideo.html