Bicycle Mechanics - steel frame repair

I can't say that my ride yesterday was such a great one. I ended up hitting a parked car (let's say I'm accident prone) and put a couple nice creases in my new steelman frame. actually they're bad enought o have torn slightly here's a pic

http://webpages.charter.net/notjohndavid/suck2.jpg

so my question is would it be possible to repair this? who does it? would it be worth it? I assume the bike won't ever be the same. Talk about your expensive first rides.

Ouch! That hurts :(

Ouch! That hurts :(

tell me about it :( the 7 stiches doesn't even compair

I feel for ya. Was this the replacement frame from your big crash earlier in the year?

it was. similar situation as before except this time the car was parked. and instead of tearing the frame in two it just tweaked it. I'm still a little to my stomach thinking about it so I'm not sure if I want to hang the bike up for good, try and repair it, or buy a new frame.

More damage than the frame is worth, from what I see. Maybe you could sell it on e-bay?

good idea. if i could get a couple hundred out of it i guess it's better than nothing.

the frame WAS worth about $1500 at the beginning of the day (well, frame and fork were $1846)

I would take it to a local frame builder ASAP.

The frame is repairable. Any competent shop should have the equipment to straighten it, realign the frame and check the fork too.

Around here the cost would be $50. to $100. But the frames really aren't the same anymore.

Talk to the builder, they may be willing to cut out the the damaged tubes and replace them, still not cheap.

I am not a frame builder.

But, the frame is probably totaled. Both the top tube and the downtube must be replaced. They are beyond being able to be straightened. Removing and replacing tubes on a tig-welded frame is significantly more damaging to the rest of the tubes than a brazed frame. Grinding the welds of the seatube and BB and headtube may thin the tubes too much. Remember, the tubes may be only 1mm or so thick.

Ritalin, can you take some close ups of the lower cup of the headset for me? Make sure the wheel is pointed straight ahead. Take them from the side and towards the front/side if you can.

Good luck.....jim

At the very least the top and down tube will need to be repaced, and the head tube is not worth the labor to save it. I would also take a good look at the fork. The frame could be repaired, but the cost of labor and repainting would be close to the cost of a new frame.
The front section of the frame would be cut off, leaving a short stub of the top tube and down tube, the stubs would be machined off so as not to damage the seat tube or bottom bracket.

We have a jack assembly for repairing this type of damage, however I wouldn't try it on a frame as bent as yours.
I would talk to Steelman. He will have to replace the top/down tubes and probably replace the head tube as well, but it still should be cheaper than a complete frame build

I agree with the thin walled tubes Brent uses, it may just crack them trying to get those dents out and straighten them.

it is repairable, but I wouldn't bend the tubes back.

If you as me, the TT, DT and HT should be replaced for safety reasons.

Your frame isn't lugged, it will be easier to repair it, in my opinion.

You can ask the builder to replace the damaged tubes. I have done this kind of work in the past. If the tubes are not replaced it would be impossible to align the frame.

Just out of curiosity, why do you guys think its easier to replace TIG welded tubes? Lugged tubes are easy, heat them with a torch until the brazing material melts. TIG welding penetrates boths tubes being welded. Thats one of the signs of a good TIG weld...penetration. The welds need to be ground off then your going to re-penetrate the tube? Bike tubes are very thin .....I dont think its a good thing to do...

Again, I'm not a frame builder, but I've seen many damaged frames and I've seen lugged frames repaired....easily

I saw frames that had seat tubes replaced. The owners let the seatposts sieze in them.....

Serotta and Dave Moulton do incredible work......true masters

If anyone has a link to information fell free to link me....I dont mind learning

The frame warranty from most manufacturers excludes damage from accidents, as you probably know. But many companies will ignore that and honor a warranty for a frame (on the theory that you'll wind up spending way more for an entire new bike). You might ask your shop for a warranty evaluation before figuring out a repair option.

The frame warranty from most manufacturers excludes damage from accidents, as you probably know. But many companies will ignore that and honor a warranty for a frame...

Really? And which parallel universe do you live in, and which manufacturers do this?

Back when I used to wrench, I remember the owner of the shop had some guy try exactly with a bike he had wrecked. The owner laughed at him, loudly, and in front of quite a few customers, too. He continued to giggle periodically throughout the rest of the day, whenever he thought about it....

If the accident wasn't your fault, then bill it to the person who caused the accident. If the fault was yours, dig into your wallet.

I'm not saying it will happen, just that you lose nothing by asking. I know of several cases where this has happened b/c the company simply ignored the fine print on the warranty.

Brazed, lugged frames are easier to repair. On a welded frame the tube has to be cut just above the weld and then the weld should be machined (not ground) so as not to cut into the wall thickness of the good tube.

Just out of curiosity, why do you guys think its easier to replace TIG welded tubes? Lugged tubes are easy, heat them with a torch until the brazing material melts. TIG welding penetrates boths tubes being welded. Thats one of the signs of a good TIG weld...penetration. The welds need to be ground off then your going to re-penetrate the tube? Bike tubes are very thin .....I dont think its a good thing to do...

Again, I'm not a frame builder, but I've seen many damaged frames and I've seen lugged frames repaired....easily

I saw frames that had seat tubes replaced. The owners let the seatposts sieze in them.....

Serotta and Dave Moulton do incredible work......true masters

If anyone has a link to information fell free to link me....I dont mind learning

It would be easier to replace the tubes in a lugged frame, I agree.
But with that kind of damage?

I don't know about the other guys, but I find it easier to build, from scratch, a lugged frame than to repair a damaged one. When damaged, its really hard to find lugs that much the angles, etc (some lugs are custom made).... And there are times that I tend to compromise when these things happen, when I coudn't find the right one.

I would rather cut the tubes, and replace, so I can retain the original geometry, as close as possible. Well, its just me..

Several of the custom builders (HHRacingGroup, Dean, Waterford, etc.) list tube replacement costs on their website. A friend is having a 'tweaked' chainstay replaced at this time. Cost is $125 plus the additional cost of painting. Most custom builders do this work if they are not too backed up on their own frames. Check with the original builder first and then move to others. And watch out for parked cars. They are always getting in the way. Good luck.

In an earlier post I commented about TIG welding. An indication of a good TIG weld is 'penetration'. When looking at a tube from the inside the TIG weld should penetrate from the outside to the inside. Sure, you can grind or machine off the TIG weld from the outside but theres nothing you can do about the damage to the tube. I would think welding another tube in the same location wouldn't be a good idea.

I found a picture of a tube showing the penetration of a tIG weld. This particular tube is a stainless steel header for a Corvette. A small mounting flange is welded on the outside. A thin bicyle tube is toast if it needs to be TIG welded a second time. Feel free to comment, good or bad....

Make the picture's a little blurry and reference the crash in the description but only vaguely. Like state that "yes you fell once but the paint wasn't damaged". or "Minor blemishes fom normal use, but it didn't break".

Yep, penetration is key in TIG and any other type of welding. Especially autogenous, which most good TIG welding is. However, I can't see the bead from your photograph so it appears to me that there is poor penetration. You'll forgive me, but I went from the Navy's nuclear program where I oversaw construction and start-up of nuclear power plants to the UHP tubing systems in the semiconductor industry and tend to be a bit critical on welds. But, over penetration is also a problem. And poor gas purging, etc. Many variables, all under control of a good welder. Too much heat is just as bad as too little. Results in a HZ (heat-effected zone) with bad metallurgy due to oxidized, carbonized and burned out alloys, etc. And the thinner the tubing the more difficult it is to do a good job. Good welders are truly artists. Some of the research apparatus I've had built in the past were such fine pieces that I felt they should be put on display rather than used.

A well done, hand-built bicycle frame is truly a work of art. That is why I ride what I ride. Not only are they more comfortable and long-lasting, but they are truly works of art and I appreciate the labor and effort of the artisan who build them (Sachs, et al).

I was just at my vintage LBS dealer this afternoon going over what I want done on my one-off (actually one of two) Serotta Rosse framesets and he was showing me a pair of 1948 Paramount framesets he was redoing for himself and a friend. Works of art. No over-run on the silver braze material. No file marks, nothing. Frames built by a true artist. He even convinced me that I could not repaint my Serotta and replace the original decals. That it would degrade the value and detract from the original artisanship of the frame. Guess he won. I gave him the parts to put the thing together after polishing out the frame and touching up some nicks, etc.

The airframes of many smaller aircraft are built with 4130 steel tube, the same tube used to build many bike frames. When a airframe is damaged on the ground or in the air (you should see what hitting a goose can do) the tube is cut off close to the weld, then the weld is machined and repairs are done as needed. The same can be done for bike frames.

The weld in the photo shows burn though not penetration, The weld puddle was held in one place for too long and was about to burn though the tube wall.

Damaged frames and cycling helmets should be REPLACED with new ones. It is really that simple. My two cents, thank you.

I went from the Navy's nuclear program ...

Another ex-nuke. Me too!

At least we're smart enough to ride bicycles. But......I guess everyone else in these forums is too.

I was on the Enterprise for refueling, off to VN, and then a plank owner on the California (DLGN-36), which I think has been moth-balled along with all missile frigates. And the last picture I saw of the Enterprise it looked like they put a new island on it. Almost too many years ago to count.

This sounds about like a Shimano vs Campy debate.

Repair vs Replace.

I was pretty much under the opinion when I asked that nothing could be done about it, but I wanted to veryify that this was true before I totally wrote the frame off as a loss. It seems as though it would still be ridable if the head tube angle hadn't changed. Now the front wheel is very close to the down tube and there's a lot of overlap. Sucks for riding around corners. But even if this weren't the case my faith in the frame isn't there. I'd not ever want to take it around a corner at high speeds down a mountain.

Thanks for all the responses guys. I've contacted Brent Steelman (the maker) about the frame and he's not really gotten back to me. I'm very disappointed in their customer service. I can't recommend them to anyone.

Have you tried your home-owner's insurance. Mine covers me if I crash or the bike blows off the top of the car, stolen, etc. Yours might.

That's a good idea Paramount. Problem is... I don't have any insurance (i should have renter's insurance but I don't).

Maybe I'll get my parents to look into theirs and then they could turn it in for me or something. I just think that the insurance company would have a hard time replacing a $1600 frame. They want the receipts and stuff and then it'd turn into a mess. Probably worth a shot though.

As mentioned above, try a few of the other custom frame makers like Waterford, Serotta (probably only work on their own stuff), etc., and see if they are any help. You will probably be better off talking to them on the phone rather than e-mailing them. That would be true for Steelman, as well. Good luck.