Let's forget names....

[YULitle]

Yeah, thanks for that. That's truly the opposite of making someone welcome. You are not kind. Have a nice day.

[I-Like-To-Bike]

Yeah, thanks for that. That's truly the opposite of making someone welcome. You are not kind. Have a nice day.

That's OK. Sorry to shatter your illusion that "we" share your idea of what passes for liberal and progressive thought about cycling, nor share your idea of what needs to be done. I find it very hard to sing Kumbaya on my keyboard with those who assume that all progressive, liberal thinking cyclists must be in line with your Conventional Wisdom about the need for proseltizing for Styrofoam.

[YULitle]

But don't you see that this is exactly what I mentioned. Instead of embracing the ideas that you DO agree with you just hammer down the ones that you don't. What will that accomplish?

[I-Like-To-Bike]

But don't you see that this is exactly what I mentioned. Instead of embracing the ideas that you DO agree with you just hammer down the ones that you don't. What will that accomplish?

Enlighten those who make assumptions about "ideas" that "we" all agree (or should agree) on; and make faulty assumptions about what "we bicyclists" need.

You made the assumption/have an idea about a shared goal/need of "us" to get cyclists to wear helmets. I am here to inform you that such an assumption about "we" cyclists will likely cause your other ideas to be viewed with skepticism.

[noisebeam]

We agree with you I-L-T-B, but not your tone

[nick burns]

We have people who ride without helmets.

Haha, you said the magic "H" word. Brings him out every time! :lol:

[I-Like-To-Bike]

Haha, you said the magic "H" word. Brings him out every time! :lol:

Exactly. A gratuitous statement in the same post that asked: "Why pick sides if it just antagonizes an already heated debate?"

[I-Like-To-Bike]

We agree with you I-L-T-B, but not your tone

We do huh? Would you like the tune about what We Cyclists Need to sound like We are Family, We are the World, or are We happy enough with Kumbaya as sung by cyclists' self proclaimed spokesmen with the self proclaimed right ideas ?

[Catweazle]

Sounds like a thinly veiled excuse to be arrogant and obnoxious to me, I'm afraid. If not that then why bother? The comments do nothing to advance the 'no helmets' cause, and if anything only reinforce notions people might hold to the effect of anti-helmet people being self-centred and somewhat irrational ;)

I'd score the round to YULittle without a moment's hesitation.

[AlmostTrick]

This reminds me of that song... One bad apple don't spoil the whole bunch girl...

"We" welcome you to the board YULitle. :)

[East Hill]

We do huh? Would you like the tune about what We Cyclists Need to sound like We are Family, We are the World, or are We happy enough with Kumbaya as sung by cyclists' self proclaimed spokesmen with the self proclaimed right ideas ?


Perhaps a round or two of 'It's a Small World' would be appropriate.

Written by: Richard M. Sherman and Robert B. Sherman

It's a world of laughter
A world of tears
It's a world of hopes
And a world of fears
There's so much that we share
That it's time we're aware
It's a small world after all

There is just one moon
And one golden sun
And a smile means
Friendship to ev'ryone
Though the mountains divide
And the oceans are wide
It's a small world after all

It's a small world after all
It's a small world after all
It's a small world after all
It's a small, small world


:)

East Hill

[YULitle]

I'm glad it isn't just ILTB out here. I respect what you have to say ILTB, but you are still missing the point. And that's fine. I wasn't trying to convert no-helmet riders to helmet riders or anything. I honestly don't know enough about the issues (see status to the left <---) to make an educated comment. I just see similar division on other topics in other venues and it does more harm than good. The examples I gave were just that. If there truly is not one thing we can all agree on, then it looks like we're doomed, eh? I refuse to believe it.

[I-Like-To-Bike]

The comments do nothing to advance the 'no helmets' cause, and if anything only reinforce notions people might hold to the effect of anti-helmet people being self-centred and somewhat irrational ;)

I'd score the round to YULittle without a moment's hesitation.

Reinforce "notions" about "causes" that you assume some people hold or wish to advance? Perfect! :rolleyes:

[YULitle]

Haha, you said the magic "H" word. Brings him out every time! :lol:

I don't know where you got your avatar from, but I've seen it on a book. Is that where you got it? To my knowledge, it may be the only book with that "I" on it's cover. ;) So?

[chipcom]

But don't you see that this is exactly what I mentioned. Instead of embracing the ideas that you DO agree with you just hammer down the ones that you don't. What will that accomplish?

For one thing, it slows people like you from 'doing something' about people like me who don't prefer to wear a helmet. Why do you feel the need to 'do something' concerning my riding activities, which I have been doing safely since before you were born?

[YULitle]

AGAIN. It was JUST an example. I'm new to these forums. I don't know squat about the prevailing trends, political posturing, or inherent dogmas about what to do and what not to do, who's on who's side, what literature each side reads and so on. NONE of that matters. What matters is that there HAS to be something that we all agree on, and focusing on what makes us different all of the time does NO GOOD for bicycling as a whole.

[noisebeam]

What matters is that there HAS to be something that we all agree on

I'll be daring and suggest that we all agree that cycling plays some part in our lives.

Al

[Ed Holland]

Thanks for your comments YUlitle,

I don't know why this should have received such criticism. This area of the forum is concerned with bike advocacy - something that is best achieved if a group of people can identify common themes to promote. YUlitle cited some common examples of advocacy themes without expressing bias on these themes, then receives unwelcoming comments from another forum member. I think that is unfair.

Ed

[nick burns]

I don't know where you got your avatar from, but I've seen it on a book. Is that where you got it? To my knowledge, it may be the only book with that "I" on it's cover. ;) So?

It's Le Faux Miroir by Rene Magritte

[chipcom]

AGAIN. It was JUST an example. I'm new to these forums. I don't know squat about the prevailing trends, political posturing, or inherent dogmas about what to do and what not to do, who's on who's side, what literature each side reads and so on. NONE of that matters. What matters is that there HAS to be something that we all agree on, and focusing on what makes us different all of the time does NO GOOD for bicycling as a whole.

WTF does any of this have to do with YOUR statement that we need to 'do something' about people who don't wear helmets? I don't give a crap about "prevailing trends, political posturing, or inherent dogmas about what to do and what not to do, who's on who's side, what literature each side reads and so on", I just want to know why you want to screw with my personal choices?

[chipcom]

I'll be daring and suggest that we all agree that cycling plays some part in our lives.

Al

You sure you can live life that dangerously, Al? ;)

[YULitle]

WTF does any of this have to do with YOUR statement that we need to 'do something' about people who don't wear helmets? I don't give a crap about "prevailing trends, political posturing, or inherent dogmas about what to do and what not to do, who's on who's side, what literature each side reads and so on", I just want to know why you want to screw with my personal choices?

Oh for goodness sakes can't you see that your and ILTB's backlash is exactly what I'm talking about? Are you even reading my posts? Let me spell it out VERY CLEARLY FOR YOU.

What I included in my original posts were EXAMPLES. I was not writing a decree for all to sign. Nor was I making some declaration of how biking aught to be. They were EXAMPLES. What I SAID was that INSTEAD of bickering about the details, we should focus on what we have IN COMMON.

Your response = The opposite of that.
Your response = Just the kind of CRAP that I was talking about.

Why don't you spare us a repeat of the last two posts, re-read what I've had to say, and then, be a sport, and offer something constructive. How about you put something on the table along the lines of what issue YOU feel we can all connect with? Cause that's the only way we will get anything done for cycling, IMO. And that's all I've been saying.

[YULitle]

Sorry. I lost my temper. Let's just end this. I can't believe I got drug into this. Good day.

[RobertHurst]

Oh for goodness sakes can't you see that your and ILTB's backlash is exactly what I'm talking about? Are you even reading my posts? Let me spell it out VERY CLEARLY FOR YOU.

What I included in my original posts were EXAMPLES. I was not writing a decree for all to sign. Nor was I making some declaration of how biking aught to be. They were EXAMPLES. What I SAID was that INSTEAD of bickering about the details, we should focus on what we have IN COMMON.

Your response = The opposite of that.
Your response = Just the kind of CRAP that I was talking about.

Why don't you spare us a repeat of the last two posts, re-read what I've had to say, and then, be a sport, and offer something constructive. How about you put something on the table along the lines of what issue YOU feel we can all connect with? Cause that's the only way we will get anything done for cycling, IMO. And that's all I've been saying.

IMO, agreement can be just as destructive as disagreement.

R.

[Allister]

What I SAID was that INSTEAD of bickering about the details, we should focus on what we have IN COMMON.

Bickering about the details is one of the things we have in common. ;)

[Allister]

IMO, agreement can be just as destructive as disagreement.


I agree.

[chipcom]

We still have people in this country that don't know we belong on the road. We have people who ride without helmets. We have people that shout at us, regardless of our lane position. These things need fixing.

I don't think people who are riding around without helmets are a problem and thus does not need fixing. What I am doing about it is giving you an 'example' of how I respond to people who spout this kind of nonsense. If you want to find areas of agreement, don't start out by making disagreeable claims...then retreating when called on it and trying to regain the false high ground by saying 'they were just examples' and that I am the problem. Capice?

[chipcom]

I agree.

Why do you want to be destructive? :p

[Allister]

Why do you want to be destructive? :p

CORNELIUS
...I'm a priest! I'm here to serve life,
All you want to do is destroy it.

ZORG
Ah, Father... You are so wrong.
Let me explain...

Zorg leads Cornelius into his inner office.

ZORG
...would you like a drink?

CORNELIUS
No thank you.

ZORG
Follow me.. Life, which you so nobly serve,
comes from destruction. Look at this empty
glass.

Zorg pushes the glass with his finger.

ZORG
Here it is... peaceful... serene...
but if it is...

Zorg pushes the glass off the table. It shatters on the floor.

ZORG
Destroyed...

Small individual robots, both free-wheeling and integrated, come zipping
out to clean up the mess.

ZORG
...Look at all these little things...
so busy all of a sudden.
Notice how each one is useful.
What a lovely ballet, so full of form
and color. So full of..life!

CORNELIUS
They are robots!

A SERVANT comes in pours water in another glass. Zorg tosses a cherry
into it.

ZORG
Yes but... by that simple gesture of destruction.
I gave work to at least fifty people today. The
engineers, the technicians, the mechanics. Fifty
people who will be able to feed their children so
they can grow up big and strong. Children who
will have children of their own, adding to the great
cycle of life!

Cornelius sits in silence.

ZORG
Father, by creating a little destruction,
I am, in fact, encouraging life! So, in
reality, you and I are in the same business!

[I-Like-To-Bike]

Sorry. I lost my temper. Let's just end this. I can't believe I got drug into this. Good day.
Positive recommendation: Think twice about your examples before trying to bring "us" all together in a consensus around what you think are "our" common needs.

It might help if you didn't make assumptions that all of "us" on BF (and more importantly cyclists everywhere else) share your alleged progressive/liberal ideas about "needs." Even more helpful for positive advocacy is not to make an assumption that only those BF members/advocates who share your ideas represent the total cycling population, nor represent the interests or agenda of anyone outside their own self centered clique.

To get back to the thread subject, it is just those type of assumptions about ownership of the only correct and proper agenda for cycling advocacy that have made the zealous Vehicular Cyclists Promoters so divisiveand ineffective.

[Script]

Positive recommendation: Think twice about your examples before trying to bring "us" all together in a consensus around what you think are "our" common needs.

It might help if you didn't make assumptions that all of "us" on BF (and more importantly cyclists everywhere else) share your alleged progressive/liberal ideas about "needs." Even more helpful for positive advocacy is not to make an assumption that only those BF members/advocates who share your ideas represent the total cycling population, nor represent the interests or agenda of anyone outside their own self centered clique.

To get back to the thread subject, it is just those type of assumptions about ownership of the only correct and proper agenda for cycling advocacy that have made the zealous Vehicular Cyclists Promoters so divisiveand ineffective.

YULite...How dare you try to make a positive contribution.:rolleyes:

We have no interest in any kind of consensus or cooperation on this forum. We prefer lurking on the fringe and then attacking any effort to get agreement on anything. Sure, you might think this is a place to advance the interests of all cyclists but you are in error!:eek:

Each of us have our own agenda and it is impossible to find common ground.:(

My apologies in advance for this posting...couldn't help myself. :D

Ed, my where can one order a CRAP jersey? :)

[I-Like-To-Bike]

Sure, you might think this is a place to advance the interests of all cyclists but you are in error!:eek:
Nope. This is the place for "all cyclists" who believe they already know what every other cyclists needs , and are here to establish a consensus (i.e. group hug) among the Advocates and Experts who share their own allegedly progressive and liberal cycling ideas.

Objective: educating all others about the consensus bicycling correctness, especially cyclists with different profiles/backgrounds than the progressive clique, whom they believe are clueless about progressive and liberal cycling ideas.

[chipcom]

Sure, you might think this is a place to advance the interests of all cyclists but you are in error!:eek:

Correct.

1. This is an internet DISCUSSION forum, not a a public policy venue. We discuss and debate issues here, there is no charter requiring us to come together to agree on some agenda.

2. This is the Vehicular Cycling subforum...hardly the place to advance the interests of all cyclists considering that most VC advocates, including JF himself, have a very narrow view of what a cyclist is and which cyclists they wish to advocate for.

[Script]

Nope. This is the place for "all cyclists" who believe they already know what every other cyclists needs , and are here to establish a consensus (i.e. group hug) among the Advocates and Experts who share their own allegedly progressive and liberal cycling ideas.

Objective: educating all others about the consensus bicycling correctness, especially cyclists with different profiles/backgrounds than the progressive clique, whom they believe are clueless about progressive and liberal cycling ideas.

OOPS:D

So help me understand....since I am not and never have been a progressive liberal, I cannot have an opinion or even suggest that there may be some commonality as too what might be considered good bicycling practices?:rolleyes:

[Script]

Correct.

1. This is an internet DISCUSSION forum, not a a public policy venue. We discuss and debate issues here, there is no charter requiring us to come together to agree on some agenda.

2. This is the Vehicular Cycling subforum...hardly the place to advance the interests of all cyclists considering that most VC advocates, including JF himself, have a very narrow view of what a cyclist is and which cyclists they wish to advocate for.

1. Of course not. And that a majority would agree on something in this forum is probably beyond the pale.:)

2. So if one does not espouse the narrow version of VC, this is not the place to suggest variations, including the dreaded 'BL's as having value' in some small way arguement?:)

Okay.

[rando]

YU, FYI, there is a whole thread about helmets if you want to go in there and talk about helmets. Closetbiker will be happy to oblige. :)

[Ed Holland]

I'm amazed that consideration of the simple act of riding a bicycle can result in such staggering arguments.

[chipcom]

I'm amazed that consideration of the simple act of riding a bicycle can result in such staggering arguments.

BINGO! I think everyone can agree on that!

[I-Like-To-Bike]

I'm amazed that consideration of the simple act of riding a bicycle can result in such staggering arguments.

The simple act of riding a bicycle is not simple enough for those determined to educate simple cyclists (AKA incompetent cyclists in VC lingo) in the intricacies of their brand of bicycling science and/or self proclaimed progressive/liberal advocates' bicycling ideas.

[zeytoun]

I've been on BF for a little while, and I see all of you bickering about nothing, and it discourages me. My bicycling mileage has dropped, and I'm pretty sure you BF bickerers are to blame for that.

But now I'm past all that, and I'd like to share the light with you. I know we exchange ideas and our ideas collide, being liberals here... but we should agree to some core missions and work on that, instead of going on in the debate of the merits of these different ideas we all have. There are cyclists out there who don't dismount their bikes at each stop sign. There are car drivers that seem to eat more and more ice cream no matter how skillfully we pedal. These problems need fixing. I don't think whining about the nuances of pedal skills is doing jack spit to fix these problems.

NOTE: Bicycle dismounting and ice cream eating are just examples that I threw out there, and don't stand behind, of things we could HYPOTHETICALLY agree to as more important than our bickering. All I know is that I am past the bickering, and know we must agree to something. I have no idea what that something might be. As I said, those two examples were not things I believe, but just assumed that maybe you all would latch on to readily. Or that maybe no one else had thought to even try to find common ground here (I'm very smart, so I just assumed I was the first), and that with this new way of thinking (thanks to me!) one of you would come up with a real idea of something we could all get behind.

[JohnBrooking]

zeytoun, don't stop riding!!

I'm riding more than I ever have, AND eating more ice cream! :D

I've only read the first and last pages of this, and I'm frankly amazed that even without HH, there's still so much bickering. But I just wanted to say that I like the term "integrated cycling" the best. AFAIK, it's not associated with any particular camp, no capital letters and trademark, but it's descriptive. It's the idea that we are better off integrated with the rest of traffic rather than segregated away from it.

[buzzman]

I've been on BF for a little while, and I see all of you bickering about nothing, and it discourages me. My bicycling mileage has dropped, and I'm pretty sure you BF bickerers are to blame for that.

But now I'm past all that, and I'd like to share the light with you. I know we exchange ideas and our ideas collide, being liberals here... but we should agree to some core missions and work on that, instead of going on in the debate of the merits of these different ideas we all have. There are cyclists out there who don't dismount their bikes at each stop sign. There are car drivers that seem to eat more and more ice cream no matter how skillfully we pedal. These problems need fixing. I don't think whining about the nuances of pedal skills is doing jack spit to fix these problems...

zeytoun,

I agree with the missions concept. One of my most inspiring cycle mates many years ago, a man named Miles Sydney, used to set out on his bike tours with a mission. One European tour he called "The Search for the Perfect Pickled Herring". Since then I have always called my tours something- I do regular summer tours of the New England coastline, which I have called "The Search for the Perfect Lobster Roll". The perfect lobster roll experience has certain criteria for me:

#1- The roll- I like a hot dog roll but it must be fresh and of a high quality.

#2- The amount and freshness of the lobster- big chunks of fresh lobster and just the right amount of mayo...

#3- The location. Including the view, the service, bike rack??...

#4- How was the ride to the location? Great roads, great weather, wind behind me?...

#5- How close to heaven on earth was the experience? A perfect lobster roll, on a perfect day, on a perfect ride is pretty close to nirvana for me.

Maybe we need a collective mission- the perfect ice cream?

I'm ready to search for the holy grail of cycling- be it ice cream, lobster or chocolate... you name it.:)

[zeytoun]

WTF John and buzzman?! As I've repeatedly repeated, Ice Cream is just an example!

:p

Just kidding. I like ice cream...

[buzzman]

WTF John and buzzman?! As I've repeatedly repeated, Ice Cream is just an example!

:p

Just kidding. I like ice cream...

O No! Now I am confused- isn't ice cream what it's all about?:eek:

If it's not all about ice cream what is it all about? :cry:

I'm melting...

[I-Like-To-Bike]

O No! Now I am confused- isn't ice cream what it's all about?:eek:

If it's not all about ice cream what is it all about? :cry:


Alfie?

[Bekologist]

Ice cream and lobster rolls for serious cyclists who dismount at each stop sign?
AS IF you could pawn that stuff off on the Northwesterners!
coffee and pie, coffee and pie!


I think forming a consensus on exactly how to dismount at stopsigns, for how long and with which flourish, is quite important to the annals of bicycling advocacy.

How far does one swing ones' leg at each stop? is there a difference if you are turning left, or turning right? Can you signal turns with your feet? Does a certain hesitancy during the dismount indicate bicycling inferiority complexes? Can a bicyclist use body english and panache to communicate their parity to other road users during the dismount?

These are important questions that the VC subforum has been expressly created to explore.

[chipcom]

Pie...definitely pie. Anyone who disagrees is a scofflaw Darwin candidate and giving us all a bad name.

[genec]

ZORG
Yes but... by that simple gesture of destruction.
I gave work to at least fifty people today. The
engineers, the technicians, the mechanics. Fifty
people who will be able to feed their children so
they can grow up big and strong. Children who
will have children of their own, adding to the great
cycle of life!

Cornelius sits in silence.

ZORG
Father, by creating a little destruction,
I am, in fact, encouraging life! So, in
reality, you and I are in the same business!

Just sort of makes you want to go out and "encourage life" eh?

[buzzman]

coffee and pie...lobster and ice cream...:eek:

Why can't we all just get along!!!!!!!!!!!:p

And how many of you swing your leg forward over the handlebars to get on your bikes instead of over the seat?

And how many of you push your bike along on one pedal like a scooter and then throw your leg over the seat?

And do you do that from the right or the left of the bike?

Why can't you all do things the way I do them!!!!:mad:

[Ed Holland]

Perhaps I should re-title this thread "Lets forget it" :rolleyes: