Foo - Vegetarianism

MKRG and 165-48:17
Thanks for really contributing with something valuable in this discussion! :eek:

I think this thread is really interesting. Some have made mention of the "there are bigger problems to worry about" theory. I would like to point out that vegetarianism is more than an outgrowth of animal rights; it also involves environmentalism, human rights, and all that is politcal.

Veganese, thanks for your contribution. John Robbins is truly an inspiration...
You bring up an important concept: that vegetarianism is much more than an outgrowth of animal rights. I will add to that by saying that fighting for animal rights is much more than just speaking for animals, and that vegetarianism is a concept that encompasses much more than just food issues.

I am constantly ridiculed by people who tell me that my time would be better spent being an activist for human rights rather than wasting my time on animal issues. I believe this is a very unfortunate, unproductive view to have. I believe that my time as an animal rights activist includes fighting for human rights as well. What I have the hardest time with is that we have come to accept the extremely harsh conditions that animals are forced to endure for our sake. Because they are weaker than us and are not able to speak for themselves, their suffering and exploitation is regularly condoned. Our society becomes numb to the reality.

This directly translates to our society's current attitudes toward those weaker than us. People living in poverty are shunned, ignored, and essentially unprotected by law. Racism is still very much alive in the USA. Although great steps have been taken to resolve this, people who are white will consistently get better health care, better jobs, and more respect from their communities. Women are still fighting to be respected as equals in the workplace and in their communities as well. Our current administration's foreign policy is the epitome of the strong ruling the weak.

These trends are generally being turned around, but it takes a lot of effort from all sides. Animal rights and vegetarianism are both useful tools for change from the inside out. Promoting compassion for all beings, human or animal, begins in the kitchen and is continued with our speech and actions that portray the harsh realities of factory farms, slaughterhouses, dairies, puppymills, cockfighting rings, experimental labs, etc...

Just as hurtfull to pull a living plant out of the dirt to eat.Now what do we do,live on water alone?Bicycle fourm,where is KB.

Just as hurtfull to pull a living plant out of the dirt to eat.Now what do we do,live on water alone?Bicycle fourm,where is KB.

Shokhead, does the sarcasm help you to feel more comfortable? Because I have to say that it seems that there are people on this thread having a serious dialogue, and then there are those that are not. If you are not up to the task of thinking about the difference between pulling a vegetable and torturously killing an animal, you don't need to, but please don't interupt more meaningful conversations with inane comments. There are other threads.

Gonesh, I couldn't agree more. I think power hierarchies are what drive most human injustice: sexiam, racism, poverty, etc. They are all connected, and to address one is to address all.

I say go somelace else besides a BIKE FOURM,did you here,i was yelling.I dont want to see you at a doctors office or at the drug store getting drugs to feel better when your sick because animals have been,as you say tortured to keep us alive and in good health.It might be wrong but it keeps your but alive and your kids and the rest of your family but now i'm worst then you,being on a bike fourm talking about this.Go ride your bike if you can.Merry xmas.

I like the idea of vegetarianism and have considered it many times. I have quite a few friends who do it and nearly all of them do it to save money-here in NYC paying your rent is the ultimate luxury-and a couple who do it for health while none admit-at least to me-that they do it for the rights of the animals that are to become tonights dinner.

For me, I've always liked the image of being satisfied eating only plant life and drinking only water or tea... I've studied Zen Buddhism and feel that the teachings of Buddha are extremely relevent but all that said... I still crave flesh. I have gone for weeks and months without but it becomes an exercise in diminishing returns and always results in me breaking down and giving into a need to enjoy a piece of perfectly roasted chicken or some moist, flaky grilled fish or med. rare prime rib. I am, sadly, a slave to the flesh.

gonesh9:

Well put. I agree 100%.



Istanbul_Tea:

When a slave is aware of beeing a slave he starts thinking about breaking free. Beeing aware must always be the first stem to a change!
Good luck and keep fighting that flesh desire. :)

Would you mind if I made an attempt to convert you to my religion? Or perhaps I should make a bid to make you share my political world view? What about the horrid conditions in which vegetables are forced to live out their miserable existence? They are forced to live their lives wallowing in dirt and manure... You might like the song I heard the screams of the vegetables. Check Dr Demento.
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Do they taste as good as chicken?
To the poster who said we are eating our Children get real . A dog is not a Baby a pig is not a baby. a Dog is a pig is a baby is just wrong and places too low of a value on human life. Peta goes too far

Arrogant Worms - Carrot Juice is Murder

Listen up brothers and sisters, come hear my desperate tale
I speak of our friends of nature, trapped in the dirt like a jail
Vegetables live in oppresion, served on our tables each night
The killing of veggies is madness, I say we take up the fight
Salads are only for murderers, cole slaw's a fascist regime
Don't think that they don't have feelings, just cuz a radish can't
scream
CHORUS
I've heard the screams of the vegetables (scream scream
scream)
Watching their skins being peeled (Having their insides
revealed)
Grated and steamed with no mercy (burning off calories)
How do you think that feels (bet it hurts really bad)
Carrot Juice constitutes murder (and that's a real crime)
Greenhouses prisons for slaves (let my vegetables grow)
It's time to stop all this gardening (it's as dirty as hell)
Let's call a spade a spade (is a spade is a spade...)
I saw a man eating celery, so I beta him black and blue
If he ever touches a sprout again, I'll bite him clean in two
I'm a political prisoner trapped in a windowless cage
Cuz I stopped the slughter of turnips by killing three men in a
rage
I told the judge when he sentenced me, this is my finest hour
I'd kill those farmers again just to save one more cauliflower
CHORUS
How low as people do we dare to stoop
Making young broccoli's bleed in the soup
Untie your beans, uncage your tomatoes, let ptted plants free
Don't mash that potatoe
I've heard the screams of the vegetables (scream scream
scream)
Watching their skins being peeled (fates in the stir fry are
sealed)
Grated and steamed with no mercy (you fat gourmet slob)
How do you think that feels (leave them out in the fields)
Carrot Juice constitutes murder (V8's genocide)
Greenhouses prisons for slaves (yes your compost's a grave)
It's time to stop all this gardening (take up macram_)
Let's call a spade a spade (is a spade is a spade...)
Power to the peas
Give peas a chance
All we are saying is give peas a chanceYou might like to view Attack of the Killer tomatoes, Return of the Killer Tomatoes,Revenge of the Killer tomatoes and Killer tomatoes eat France.

If you look at life in the light of creation it is not wrong to use the simile of animals beeing our children. All creatures beeing unable to speak for them selves are in a way our children. We have responibility towards these beings in a way we have to our children.

If you look at life from the evolutionary point of view in fact animals are our children that in the evolution will grow to human beings.

Putting a value on a life is dangerous. What to say about people with people with braindamage or severe mentally ******** humans? No it´s not up to us to put a valu on a life!

All we can do is to cause as little suffering we can to other beings.

No worries, animal issues are certainly not the only causes that need attention. I happen to have a close relationship to animals, so that is what I choose to devote my time and effort to help.

I don't think people who eat animals are evil or uncompassionate. The atrocity is that abuse and neglect is profitable in the factory farm business. I see your point that killing is an ugly business, but unnecessary torture, brutality, and suffering makes it much uglier.
New strains of flu always come from poor areas of asia where new flu strains are incubated in the animal population and then transmitted to humans. These people have a very close relationship with their animals as they must sleep with them to keep warm. Ever heard of swine flu?

I Agree with you gonesh9.

"Feelings or not, they are subhuman, and don't have the same basic rights."-WHOA! Please someone tell me this is a joke. Almost got me thinking of Nazi Germany 1939.
An animal is not a human being and we are more than mere animals. I do not believe animals should be mistreated but to equate humans and animals as equal is ludicrous. Of course we might all be better off as vegans but a balanced diet without meat is hard to achieve and The only vegetarian cuisine I have experience with Indian food takes a great deal of knowledge and skill to prepare as well as time . I do not posess the time special knowledge or skill to do that. I cannot even get soybeans easily (the best source of plant protien)where I live and Illinois is a big soybean producer the ones I have bought come from China . That makes no sense.

Of course we might all be better off as vegans but a balanced diet without meat is hard to achieve

It's been extremely easy for me to achieve a balanced diet as a vegan for 7 years. I'm very active, healthy, and happy. I do admit that in some parts of the country it could be a slight problem, although there's always been fruits, vegetables, and grains wherever I've travelled. Whole societies have survived and thrived on this type of diet throughout history.

While I agree that farming nowadays is not the same as it was 50 years ago you have to account for the fact that there is huge pressure to deliver massive quantities of food to the public.

I imagine that things could be better but you must also consider the price of food and what distributors and retailers are willing to pay for it.

I do not presume to know the answers but still have to take these things into consideration.
As The Tick would say Spooonnn!!

Also...

At some point in the future I hope to have a small plot of land in order to do what my family did when I was a child.

Have a small vegetable garden of about 4 acres.
Have chickens , both laying hens for eggs and breeders for broilers.
Perhaps raise a few pigs for pork or maybe even a cow for beef. We never did the milk thing but I am sure it would be worth looking into.

We canned veggies for use in winter and had eggs year around as well as chickens to eat and the experience was rewarding. I cannot think of a more grounded and wholesome way for a young person to grow up.
Sir spins a lot. Have you ever read two acre eden By Ken logsdon you might find it instructive. I see you are a fan of the Ticks sidekick Arthur. Spoonnn!!

It's been extremely easy for me to achieve a balanced diet as a vegan for 7 years. I'm very active, healthy, and happy. I do admit that in some parts of the country it could be a slight problem, although there's always been fruits, vegetables, and grains wherever I've travelled. Whole societies have survived and thrived on this type of diet throughout history.
Good maybe you can explain in exhaustive detail to the rest of us just how to do it. I know I have not found it to be easy.Perhaps you have a personal chef?

Creationism: If God did not want us to eat meat he would have made it so that it tasted really bad.

Evolutionary: I'm faster and smarter than the chicken (most of the time...especially when it's pre-packaged at the supermarket) therefore I eat the chicken. I wonder if the other animals showed us so much compassion when we weren't at the top of the food chain? Did the Lion choose the carrot over our slow, low-browed ancestors?

I'm faster and smarter than the chicken (most of the time...especially when it's pre-packaged at the supermarket) therefore I eat the chicken. I wonder if the other animals showed us so much compassion when we weren't at the top of the food chain? Did the Lion choose the carrot over our slow, low-browed ancestors?

So, if I´m faster and smarter than you, it´s OK for me to kill you? You do not have any problems with that?

What you are saying is that the weak can take care of them selves. The strong have a right to oppress the weaker. This reasoning taken to it´s edge means a stronger human than you have automaticly a right by nature to oppress you. Congratulatins! You have with this reasoning taken a giant step backwards in the evolutionary chain. Back to when prehumans were living in caves.

I hope you have a little more sense than this :( You have come a little longer on your journey than the lion you mention. Therefore you have come in contact with this thing called moral, heard of that have you? Understanding moral is what differs us from a lion. Are you a lion?

Overlooking the silliness for now, let's observe something primeval. Vegetarians are dumb. Not you, herbivores. You are smart because you are a carnivore. You can pretend to be something other than what you are; if you wish. For me, I can't imagine it. And yes, I am the lion.

The strong does prey on the weak.Animals and humans.Thats been going on forever.

The strong does prey on the weak.Animals and humans.Thats been going on forever.

Yes, but the question is: is that right? Don´t we humans have an responsability as we are aware of other senses than pure animalic instinct? We can choose to eat vegetables as that cause less suffering to other beings. The animals does not know any better, we do!

I loved it when the editor of that vegitarian magazine came out of the closet. "20 years is a long time to eat tofu''
Oh yeah. Just had a wonderful, traditonal Xmas dinner. Merry Xmas everybody.

Merry Xmas to you to and to everyone else.

So, if I´m faster and smarter than you, it´s OK for me to kill you? You do not have any problems with that?

In a time of need where society's laws are not an issue it would be perfectly acceptable. But in all likelihood, due to your hang-ups about eating meat, I would kill and eat you and ensure my survival. I guess I can forget my revulsion towards cannabalism because apparently the chicken and cows are my children and I've been eating them for years.


What you are saying is that the weak can take care of them selves. The strong have a right to oppress the weaker. This reasoning taken to it´s edge means a stronger human than you have automaticly a right by nature to oppress you.

It's the law of the jungle. Thankfully we live in a strong society that makes an attempt to look out for other weaker societies. I guarantee you that the second the US turns into a weak nation (millitarily) some other nation who is stronger will start dictating the rules to us. I'm not talking about "the right to oppress". Philosophically, nobody has that right but if you believe that it isn't happening you better start eating more carrots since they are good for your eyes.


Congratulatins! You have with this reasoning taken a giant step backwards in the evolutionary chain. Back to when prehumans were living in caves.

Somebody forgot to send me the memo notifying me that I was the last of the barbaric meat-eaters. You are living in a society that gives you the luxury of being a vegetarian. One that was built by meat-eaters. I'm fairly certain that we as a species would not be where we are today without the ability to utilize a wide variety of food sources. Humanity would not have survived the ages were it not for our ability to digest meat.

Everything is about personal attitude. It is on a personal level all changes have to start.

What you see when looking at us vegetarians is the future. People are coming to awake and realize what we expose our fellow creatures to and this oppression is going to end. Not at once but slowly as peoples minds start changing. If you like it or not, this is happening right now although it is a slow process it´s going on right now. The meat industy is thrembeling. This will be the end for theire slaughterhouses. I read the other day that the major meat distributor here in Sweden wanted to go out to the schools and have lectures about how nice to the animals the slaughter industy are and how necessary meatdiet is. This is because more and more youths in schools are changing to vegeterian diet. Fortunately these lectures are never to happen. They would not be leagal. In the future when the majority of people has awaken I think meat eating will be illegal.

The revolution has begun! We can´t be stopped! :D

Merry Christmas to all james

The revolution has begun

Okey dokey...just watch where you point that carrot.

Everything is about personal attitude. It is on a personal level all changes have to start.

What you see when looking at us vegetarians is the future. People are coming to awake and realize what we expose our fellow creatures to and this oppression is going to end. Not at once but slowly as peoples minds start changing. If you like it or not, this is happening right now although it is a slow process it´s going on right now. The meat industy is thrembeling. This will be the end for theire slaughterhouses. I read the other day that the major meat distributor here in Sweden wanted to go out to the schools and have lectures about how nice to the animals the slaughter industy are and how necessary meatdiet is. This is because more and more youths in schools are changing to vegeterian diet. Fortunately these lectures are never to happen. They would not be leagal. In the future when the majority of people has awaken I think meat eating will be illegal.

The revolution has begun! We can´t be stopped! :D
Geez.You need to get out and ride a lot more.You do ride,right?

Meat is Murder

Heifer whines could be human cries
Closer comes the screaming knife
This beautiful creature must die
This beautiful creature must die
A death for no reason
And death for no reason is MURDER

And the flesh you so fancifully fry
Is not succulent, tasty or kind
It's death for no reason
And death for no reason is MURDER

And the calf that you carve with a smile
Is MURDER
And the turkey you festively slice
Is MURDER
Do you know how animals die ?

Kitchen aromas aren't very homely
It's not "comforting", cheery or kind
It's sizzling blood and the unholy stench
Of MURDER

It's not "natural", "normal" or kind
The flesh you so fancifully fry
The meat in your mouth
As you savour the flavour
Of MURDER

NO, NO, NO, IT'S MURDER
NO, NO, NO, IT'S MURDER
Oh ... and who hears when animals cry ?

I suggest you get a dictionary. Or perhaps join an English as a Second Language class.

I suggest you get a dictionary. Or perhaps join an English as a Second Language class.

That is a personal attack used when you are short of arguments!

You do not point out whom you are referring to but being the only one here in this discussion or one of few with another language as native language I feel this is a ugly attempt to draw attention away from what is important in this discussion.

Pitiful!

Meat is Murder


Sorry, but murder only applies to your own species. Nice song otherwise though ;)

With two known cases of BSE or Mad Cow decease in North America, I would think that meat eaters would be very interested in animal welfare and the living conditions of what they consume. The living conditions, pharmaceutical intake, slaughtering methods, environmental setting and general well being of farm animals affects you more then me the vegetarian. I am amazed how indifferent most meat eaters are when in comes to meat products. Eating a quality product from healthy animals is in your interest, not only from the animal welfare perspective, but also from a health and environmental one. Having worked on a farm, it changed my views on hunting, farming and eating animal products. I have been vegetarian for over 20 years and it is because of inhumane farming practices and the living conditions of the animals that I witnessed while working in the industry.

Nice post, Gordon. But what is a sane and intelligent thought doing in THIS thread? :D

I thought there was only one case of BSE in the U.S. Whether it be one or two doesn't really make a difference though. Americans are amazingly apathetic about many things that pose a much greater risk to their health than one confirmed case of BSE. The risk of death from Heart Disease and obesity far outweighs your chance of contracting BSE from a cheeseburger yet we still consume way too much and exercise way too little. Now I'm not a vegetarian but I do make an attempt to limit my red meat intake and try to stick to a low fat diet and I obviously ride a bike. But to think that one confirmed case of BSE is going to change a fast food nations attitude towards eating meat is just silly. It may make a big sensation for a little while in the news and people MAY stray away from their cheeseburgers for a day or two but notjing of consequence will happen. McDonalds may show a slight decrease in burger sales while showing an increase in mcnugget sales for a day or two at most.

I thought there was only one case of BSE in the U.S. Whether it be one or two doesn't really make a difference though.

It makes a BIG difference and many countries have already banned American beef. A lot of folks in the beef sector are going to be experiencing hard times...just like they did in Canada...except the US is a much larger beef producer.

Vegetarian and meat consumption is of little importance to me,since I haven't eaten anything in 20 years and feel absolutely terrific :)

Regards.

Anders K. Why do you leave Christ Out of Christmas? His life death and resurrection are historical fact.

They are a historical fact if you are Protestant. Not everyone is.

Anders K. Why do you leave Christ Out of Christmas? His life death and resurrection are historical fact.

Why do you ask me that?

Because you said X mas.

Oh, it was a reply to Late and passed forward to everyone else reading the post. It was not a deliberately choice of words.

Well I do not believe in Christ in the usual way. I believe in Third Testament. If interested check the link.

http://www.martinus.dk/

Merry christmas to you james, and a happy new year!

Because you said X mas.

http://www-tech.mit.edu/V119/N66/Dean_Chris.66l.html

I really cannot make heads or tails of Martinuses doctrine he is very wordy .I believe that the Bible is the inspired inerrant word of God. And I believe that the only way to obtain salvation is by accepting Christs death on the Cross as atonement for sin . I believe he came to earth lived and died on the cross. He was not an allegory or merely a good teacher but The Son Of God. I would encourage you to read Evidence that demands a verdict by Josh Mcdowell,Or even better simply read the book of John or the Gospels and ask the holy spirirt for Guidance. As I read it the canon of the Bible was closed after the Book of revelation in the New testament.I will leave you with some scripture which the Bible says will get results where the mere word of man may not convince. For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believeth on him should not perish but recieve eternal life. John Chapter 3 verse 16 Ephesians chapter 2 verses 8 and 9 .( For it is by Gods grace that you have been saved through faith. It is not the result of your own efforts but Gods gift so that no one can boast about it. ) Gods standard is perfection and the only one who ever attained it was Christ who was both God and Man . His death on the cross was the perfect atonement for our sins. Nothing else is sufficient. The only unpardonable sin is rejection of Christ.I am praying for you. James :D

James!

Sorry, I just can´t believe in a god that has his people of special interest over others, who can make the universe as if by magic, who made woman of the mans ribs. This is hocuspocus to me.
Matrinus analysis of the bible is for a more modern human who can not accept all unlogical things in the bible. Martinus also explains logical how everything is connected and why all living creatures have the same value.
The bible were written for the humans living 2000 years ago. Since then we have changed a lot and need other explanations than the bible give us. Well not all of us.
I have no need for trying to convert anyone, but if someone is interested in my point of view I invite them to read the Third Testament.
:)