Foo - Vegetarianism

We haven't had much discussion about this for a while, so would like to bring it back up. Pros/cons?

Personally, I feel that the current state of animal suffering in factory farms is the single most horrible manifestation of human selfishness. I believe that to just shrug it off is to accept and support this sickening example of cruelty. If animals were still raised in acceptable conditions on family farms I wouldn't have a problem with people using them for food. The current situation, however, is that pigs are kept in a crate where they can't turn around for their entire lives. Helps them get fatter. They are never allowed to see their piglets. Chickens are crammed so close together in cages that their feet permanently curl around the wires. Their beaks are chopped off so they don't peck each other to death in these cages. Ducks, geese, and male baby calves are force fed by jamming a hose down their throat, because this makes their meat more tender. Dead pigs and cows are often left dead on the ground to rot. Pigs are tranquilized with tasers, but often still conscious when their skin is cut open. Chickens are fed a Robert Downey Jr.-like concoction of chemicals and drugs to make them lay more eggs. Male chicks are thrown into garbage bags alive, and left to suffocate. Male calves in the dairy industry are either killed or sent to the veal warehouse where they are isolated and force fed. Pigs and cows are routinely abused during transport (kicked, hit with bats, etc.) And on and on.....

This is the reality of factory farming. Many argue that animals are in fact not equal to humans, so don't require the same amount of respect and compassion. People are entitled to their opinions, but even so, I can not comprehend how any person can accept the brutal conditions in which the animals tortured every day in factory farms have to endure.

Would you mind if I made an attempt to convert you to my religion? Or perhaps I should make a bid to make you share my political world view? What about the horrid conditions in which vegetables are forced to live out their miserable existence? They are forced to live their lives wallowing in dirt and manure...

While I agree that farming nowadays is not the same as it was 50 years ago you have to account for the fact that there is huge pressure to deliver massive quantities of food to the public.

I imagine that things could be better but you must also consider the price of food and what distributors and retailers are willing to pay for it.

I do not presume to know the answers but still have to take these things into consideration.

Personally, I feel that the current state of animal suffering in factory farms is the single most horrible manifestation of human selfishness. I believe that to just shrug it off is to accept and support this sickening example of cruelty.

I believe that what your saying is correct, and the best way to support it is by not eating meat, thus decreasing the demand.

However, I enjoy the taste, and there are things that should have more attentioned paid to them than the plight of animals. Feelings or not, they are subhuman, and don't have the same basic rights.

In the hierarchy of concern, this:

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/africa/11/04/congo.ap/index.html

Is more something I loose sleep on than the plight of chickens on a farm. The actions of people on other people are far more in humane, and deserve far more attention.

Also...

At some point in the future I hope to have a small plot of land in order to do what my family did when I was a child.

Have a small vegetable garden of about 4 acres.
Have chickens , both laying hens for eggs and breeders for broilers.
Perhaps raise a few pigs for pork or maybe even a cow for beef. We never did the milk thing but I am sure it would be worth looking into.

We canned veggies for use in winter and had eggs year around as well as chickens to eat and the experience was rewarding. I cannot think of a more grounded and wholesome way for a young person to grow up.

It's awful they treat pigs like that since they are more intelligent than dogs. If we treated dogs like that, there would be an uproar. I personally eat very little meat though I am not a vegetarian, preferring fish most of all. I think I am going to get organic, farm raised eggs but I am not sure if their conditions are better. Would you know Gonesh? In addition,I do know they sell meat from cows that graze but it is more expensive.

William, did you read the article in a recent National Geographic about slavery? It was a real eye opener as well.

We just do not know how lucky we are to be in a position to be so worried about how poorly a chicken is treated for its 6-8 weeks before it becomes food.

We are indeed spoiled and clueless as a nation.

While there are millions of people in this world not knowing if the next day will be the last due to starvation or civil war the Americans are pouting over the poor animals they eat in bulk never missing a meal every day.

They are forced to live their lives wallowing in dirt and manure...

Have you seen how pigs live in the wild?

William, did you read the article in a recent National Geographic about slavery? It was a real eye opener as well.

We just do not know how lucky we are to be in a position to be so worried about how poorly a chicken is treated for its 6-8 weeks before it becomes food.

We are indeed spoiled and clueless as a nation.

While there are millions of people in this world not knowing if the next day will be the last due to starvation or civil war the Americans are pouting over the poor animals they eat in bulk never missing a meal every day.

And I'm here comlaining about the rise in the price of tri tip (up to 6.79 a pound) and jumping up and down about the drop in the price of french wine..

Makes me pause for a minute. We are spoiled and I wouldn't say clueless, I'd rather say caloused and blissfully ignorant.

Makes me pause for a minute. We are spoiled and I wouldn't say clueless, I'd rather say caloused and blissfully ignorant.


Absolutely.

During my travels in the Army I actually got to witness some of the worlds atrocious living conditions first hand. I am talking about people living marginally better if any better than the animals in commercial farms.

People who were damn tough because if they were not they would die. Much like very early Americans in the 18th and 19th centuries.

Now we worry about our hair, our next ice cream cone, our car being dirty, and what color we should paint the dogs toenails.

Would you mind if I made an attempt to convert you to my religion? Or perhaps I should make a bid to make you share my political world view? What about the horrid conditions in which vegetables are forced to live out their miserable existence? They are forced to live their lives wallowing in dirt and manure...

Where did you get that I'm attempting to convert you to anything? All I did was raise the issue, provided information, and asked for thoughts, pro or con. In fact, I try to make a strong effort not to push it on people. As for the horrid condition which vegetables are forced to live, I agree, although dirt and manure are natural, healthy environments for them in which they thrive. I don't like how we ruin their dirt by infesting it with chemicals, though. The reason I'm more concerned with the conditions which animals have to live is that to me, there is a clearer form of suffering in factory animal farms than vegetable fields.


Feelings or not, they are subhuman, and don't have the same basic rights.

This is your opinion, which is fine. My opinion is that animals may not necessarily need the same basic rights as people, but do not deserve to be treated the way they currently are. In fact, I believe that humans were given a stewardship role over animals and those living beings which are weaker than us, which makes it our duty to protect them.


It's awful they treat pigs like that since they are more intelligent than dogs. If we treated dogs like that, there would be an uproar....I think I am going to get organic, farm raised eggs but I am not sure if their conditions are better. Would you know Gonesh? In addition,I do know they sell meat from cows that graze but it is more expensive.

I agree that dogs are given much more basic rights than other animals such as pigs, simply because of our connection to them. The average pig has the same I.Q. as a 4 year old human. They have been found to experience fear, pain, loss, anger, and jealousy the same as a 4 year old.
As for organic, "free-range" eggs, yes, many of their conditions are better than factory farmed eggs, although free range just means not couped up in cages. Many of these farms still cram their walls with as many chickens as will fit, but at least they are allowed to move around. Many of the same practices take place in these farms as in the major factory farms. I have heard that there are some companies that take great care to provide livable conditions for their chickens, but don't know which ones those are.

Arrogant Worms - Carrot Juice is Murder

Listen up brothers and sisters, come hear my desperate tale
I speak of our friends of nature, trapped in the dirt like a jail
Vegetables live in oppresion, served on our tables each night
The killing of veggies is madness, I say we take up the fight
Salads are only for murderers, cole slaw's a fascist regime
Don't think that they don't have feelings, just cuz a radish can't
scream
CHORUS
I've heard the screams of the vegetables (scream scream
scream)
Watching their skins being peeled (Having their insides
revealed)
Grated and steamed with no mercy (burning off calories)
How do you think that feels (bet it hurts really bad)
Carrot Juice constitutes murder (and that's a real crime)
Greenhouses prisons for slaves (let my vegetables grow)
It's time to stop all this gardening (it's as dirty as hell)
Let's call a spade a spade (is a spade is a spade...)
I saw a man eating celery, so I beta him black and blue
If he ever touches a sprout again, I'll bite him clean in two
I'm a political prisoner trapped in a windowless cage
Cuz I stopped the slughter of turnips by killing three men in a
rage
I told the judge when he sentenced me, this is my finest hour
I'd kill those farmers again just to save one more cauliflower
CHORUS
How low as people do we dare to stoop
Making young broccoli's bleed in the soup
Untie your beans, uncage your tomatoes, let ptted plants free
Don't mash that potatoe
I've heard the screams of the vegetables (scream scream
scream)
Watching their skins being peeled (fates in the stir fry are
sealed)
Grated and steamed with no mercy (you fat gourmet slob)
How do you think that feels (leave them out in the fields)
Carrot Juice constitutes murder (V8's genocide)
Greenhouses prisons for slaves (yes your compost's a grave)
It's time to stop all this gardening (take up macram_)
Let's call a spade a spade (is a spade is a spade...)
Power to the peas
Give peas a chance
All we are saying is give peas a chance

The average pig has the same I.Q. as a 4 year old human. They have been found to experience fear, pain, loss, anger, and jealousy the same as a 4 year old. .

At 4, I figured out which key opened the front door, got out, stole the nieghbors tricycle, packed lunch (from the neighbor's fridge.. it was PB&J) and rode said tricycle 2.3 miles before the police caught me. I was in a left turn lane waiting for the light. (Should have ran it).

I'd like to say a pig do that. Course, they might be smart enough not to.




As for the horrid condition which vegetables are forced to live, I agree, although dirt and manure are natural, healthy environments for them in which they thrive. I don't like how we ruin their dirt by infesting it with chemicals, though. The reason I'm more concerned with the conditions which animals have to live is that to me, there is a clearer form of suffering in factory animal farms than vegetable fields.

Whoa.. are you for real?


As for the horrid condition which vegetables are forced to live, I

Tell me you're joking!!! C'mon!! Please!! Even (name edit cause I don't like the guy but don't want to start @#$) isn't that deluded!!

I'd like to say a pig do that. Course, they might be smart enough not to.

:D You're probably right. Anyhow, I believe they lack the opposable thumb. :p



Tell me you're joking!!! C'mon!! Please!! Even (name edit cause I don't like the guy but don't want to start @#$) isn't that deluded!!

Yes, I was joking about the vegetables. What I was getting at, though, was that the "vegetables are killed, too" argument is weak, as even if they were, they aren't abused the same way animals are.

And I can't say, I think he might be that deluded. If it's the same guy you're thinking of, I remember a post where he wanted to give someone his bike and pay for the shipping.

Yes, I was joking about the vegetables. .

Phew. I was worried for a second.



And I can't say, I think he might be that deluded. If it's the same guy you're thinking of, I remember a post where he wanted to give someone his bike and pay for the shipping.

What's wrong with that.. did he give the bike away yet? If not, let me PM him..
:D

Sorry, it just seemed as though it was going to turn into a "you're an evil meat-eater" thread. I do not approve of the conditions in which animals are raised or slaughtered but the fact is that slaughtering an animal is slaughtering an animal. Killing is an ugly business no matter how you look at it. What I said about the miserable vegetables was an attempt at levity. I feel there are more important causes to devote my time and effort to rather than the plight of the chickens. Sorry.

I feel there are more important causes to devote my time and effort to rather than the plight of the chickens. Sorry.

No worries, animal issues are certainly not the only causes that need attention. I happen to have a close relationship to animals, so that is what I choose to devote my time and effort to help.

I don't think people who eat animals are evil or uncompassionate. The atrocity is that abuse and neglect is profitable in the factory farm business. I see your point that killing is an ugly business, but unnecessary torture, brutality, and suffering makes it much uglier.

Chicken? YUM YUM.

Beets? Blah, yuck!

Beef? Delicious.

Brussel sprouts? Puke!

Pork? Tasty tasty!

Artichoke? Choke! Gasp!

I like most veggies but not enough to give up my meat. As far as conditions go, they just need to be clean when they hit my grill.

http://www.westonaprice.org/healthissues/ethicsmeat.html

Anyone have any opinions regarding health benefits or health dangers of a vegetarian diet?

http://www.westonaprice.org/healthissues/ethicsmeat.html

Do your views reflect his?

Here is a nice site on what I call being a Concientious Carnivore. I/e I eat meat but try to keep it free of the cruelty of factory farms. I see nothing wrong with killing an animal for food but do see something wrong with torturing it beforehand.

It really is an entertaining and well done parody of the matrix.

http://www.themeatrix.com/

take care,

Jester

Here is a nice site on what I call being a Concientious Carnivore. http://www.themeatrix.com/


:D I just saw that last night, really great stuff. I was glad to see a promotion like that for concientious meat eating. You all should check out the link, really funny.

I would have to say that I agree with alot of the article that Allister posted, even though I am not a meat eater. My objections to Factory Farming and modern food processing and packaging are largely political and only secondarily related to the quality of the "output" (food that is). I have much the same problem with large-scale soybean production and the industrial processes used to turn these beans into something that looks alot like food.

I have not eaten any meat in the last 4 years. I do eat milk, cheese, eggs and fish. I try to eat minimally processed food that is in-season locally. I also try not to cook it too much or embellish it with spices and sauces. I do this because it make me feel better and saves me time. I suppose it probably helps keep my levels of cholesterol and the amount of sugar and salt that I consume lower as well.

Dan

Personally, I feel that the current state of animal suffering in factory farms

If God didn't want us to eat meat, He wouldn't have invented gravy.

It's awful they treat pigs like that since they are more intelligent than dogs. If we treated dogs like that, there would be an uproar. I personally eat very little meat though I am not a vegetarian, preferring fish most of all. I think I am going to get organic, farm raised eggs but I am not sure if their conditions are better. Would you know Gonesh? In addition,I do know they sell meat from cows that graze but it is more expensive.

Yeah, but can a pig fetch the paper? Also, how far do you think that Australian group would have gotten had their name been Three Pig Night?

Anyone have any opinions regarding health benefits or health dangers of a vegetarian diet?


My daughter-in-law eats only skinless chicken and fish. No red meat or pork whatsoever. She is extremely healthy. She also has a degree in health, a minor in sports physiology, and teaches high school health and nutrition.

Whatever works for you. I happen to love a steak, medium rare, smothered in onions and mushrooms, a juicy, blood-rare barbequed hamburger, as well as a nice broiled salmon or talapia, or a whole mess of sashimi.

I love brussel sprouts, carrots, lima beans, okra, tomatoes, and all sorts of fruits and vegetables.

Trekrider, I didn't know you had such a witty humorous side. :p

Those are some answers I'll accept from the omnivore side. :)

Yeah, but can a pig fetch the paper? Also, how far do you think that Australian group would have gotten had their name been Three Pig Night?

Personality goes a long way...


So by that rationale, if a pig had a better personality, he would cease to be a filty animal. Is that true?



We' have to be talkin' 'bout one charmin' mother****** pig.
I mean he'd have to be ten times more charmin' than that Arnold on Green Acres, you know what I'm sayin'?

I Agree with you gonesh9.

"Feelings or not, they are subhuman, and don't have the same basic rights."-WHOA! Please someone tell me this is a joke. Almost got me thinking of Nazi Germany 1939.

AndersK, I've been wondering where you've been.... You're one of my only veggie allies on these forums. :D

It really is sad how a lot of people seem to view animals. :(

I´ve been away for some time, but I have checked in every now and then.

It´s important to discuss these matters. Even if there will be disagreements. But we must also be aware of the power of these philosophic discussions. People and will offend and get offended.

No point of arguing with people not able to understand the veggie-thing

:(

But we can sure try :p

Dan said
I do eat milk
Dan, Check the expiration date. I think it's been in the fridge too long!

my grandpa is a farmer (soy beans & corn) and one of his friends who raises pigs (in a pen the nice way) had a mild stroke and fell in with a sow which ate his arm,
so if pigs are as smart as 4 year olds we know where they stand politically. I'm also pretty sure that if my cat weighed 100 more pounds I would be on the menu, so outside of the whole feedlot cruelty issue i'll have mine medium rare. Is it a sign that we have to much time on our hands when we apply politics to the food chain?
Tell it to the families of all that people that starved last year. Another thing lets worry about the negatives of genetically engineered food when people stop dying from no food period. Hay Europe, is there any evidence that it is in any way harmfull anyway? One could say corn has been genetically engineered, just a slower method.

"Is it a sign that we have to much time on our hands when we apply politics to the food chain?"

It´s thanks to this extra sparetime we can make the right decisions. We, unlike the animals, have the gift and capacity of thinking in moral terms. Lets use that gift not making suffering but good. How many would considering eating theire pet? Not many, right? Why then eat other animals? They have the same span of emotions our pets show. They have life experience like you and me. Why end that when not necessary?

This is facts. Pure facts. So lets grow out humanity to include the animals, our friends in life. Let them live!

I still do not see how morals apply to eating something our bodies were designed to eat (not exclusively of course). We are animals, we are omniverous, morals are relative, you can have yours I can have mine, actually, I don't think morals even exhist.

Morals are one of things we create to give life meaning. Having said that, I have a couple of organic rib eyes in the fridge for friday. Call me anything you want; you just don't call me late for dinner. Hey! well, you know what I mean :D

I read somewhere that you can't get vitamin B-12 naturally from non-animal sources. Any info on that?

I agree that the way many animals are treated is cruel. Also, it's a more efficient use of land to grow food for people instead of for animals which later become food for people.

Last night I was eating chicken and thinking, "This is a chicken's muscle tissue," and it made my appetite less. But, I got over it quickly. :)

I read somewhere that you can't get vitamin B-12 naturally from non-animal sources. Any info on that?

There is some truth to that, although not completely true. Back before modern agriculture methods were adopted, you got enough B-12 just from ground residue on vegetables. Remember, you're body only needs very minute amounts of B-12, and it is strored in the liver for up to 7 years. Now days even organic food is grown where the ground has been tainted by either previously chemical-ridden harvests or polution.

B-12 is still found in many mushrooms, and sea vegetables. Having said that, I do take a B-12 tablet that is made from extractions from these mushrooms and vegetables because pernisious anemia, or B-12 deficiancy, is very dangerous and can cause irreversable nerve damage.

Other than the current state of B-12, you can easily get everything you need to be healthy from an exclusively plant-based diet.

Hi LittleBigMan, havent seen you here for some time. I was wondering where you went.

Like gonesh9 wrote aboute B-12, there are some vegetables with this vitamin. I believe I´ve heard that broccoli is one of them and that darkgreen plants specially contain B-12. I have also used B-12 tablet for some time to be on the safe side. :)

I don't think morals even exhist.

Must be a great, meaningful life you live there.

Aint nuthin, being an agnostic, that's the same line I get from persons of faith

BTW what is your avitar a picture of, or where did it come from? I like it.

There is some truth to that, although not completely true. Back before modern agriculture methods were adopted, you got enough B-12 just from ground residue on vegetables. Remember, you're body only needs very minute amounts of B-12, and it is strored in the liver for up to 7 years. Now days even organic food is grown where the ground has been tainted by either previously chemical-ridden harvests or polution.

B-12 is still found in many mushrooms, and sea vegetables. Having said that, I do take a B-12 tablet that is made from extractions from these mushrooms and vegetables because pernisious anemia, or B-12 deficiancy, is very dangerous and can cause irreversable nerve damage.

Other than the current state of B-12, you can easily get everything you need to be healthy from an exclusively plant-based diet.

If you can't get B-12, how about two servings of B-6?

Aint nuthin, being an agnostic, that's the same line I get from persons of faith

Yeah, I guess it's not my place to tell you how to live... sorry. I hate to sound the same as some religious zealot...


BTW what is your avitar a picture of, or where did it come from? I like it.

It's a fractal I found on some website. Looks like trees. Fractal theories and visual representations interest me.


If you can't get B-12, how about two servings of B-6?

I'm digging your recent foray into humor, Trekrider. You're not that bad after all. :)

wait a sec, your from Portland and like fractal theory, do you know Joe Ruskiewicz?

No, who's he? I don't do any formal fractal studying or anything, just interested....

Just a long shot I guess, he's a friend of mine from college, he worked at a software firm in Portland for a few years and is very into fractals, fiburnachi(sp?) numbers etc. Where ever he lives he gets around a lot and knows more than his fair share of people.

I think this thread is really interesting. Some have made mention of the "there are bigger problems to worry about" theory. I would like to point out that vegetarianism is more than an outgrowth of animal rights; it also involves environmentalism, human rights, and all that is politcal. I thin John Robbins says it best, so I have cut and pasted from one of his articles (you can find more at www.foodrevolution.org):

"If we look deeply, we will see that eating can be extremely violent. UNESCO tells us that every day, forty thousand children in the world die because of a lack of nutrition, of food. Every day, forty thousand children. And the amount of grain that we grow in the West is mostly used to feed our cattle. Eighty percent of the corn grown in this country is to feed the cattle to make meat. Ninety-five percent of the oats produced in this country is not for us to eat, but for the animals raised for food. According to this recent report that we received of all the agricultural land in the US, eighty-seven percent is used to raise animals for food. That is forty-five percent of the total land mass in the US.

More than half of all the water consumed in the US whole purpose is to raise animals for food. It takes 2500 gallons of water to produce a pound of meat, but only 25 gallons to produce a pound of wheat. A totally vegetarian diet requires 300 gallons of water per day, while a meat-eating diet requires more than 4000 gallons of water per day.

Raising animals for food causes more water pollution than any other industry in the US because animals raised for food produce one hundred thirty times the excrement of the entire human population. It means 87,000 pounds per second. Much of the waste from factory farms and slaughter houses flows into streams and rivers, contaminating water sources.

Each vegetarian can save one acre of trees per year. More than 260 million acres of US forests have been cleared to grow crops to feed animals raised for meat. And another acre of trees disappears every eight seconds. The tropical rain forests are also being destroyed to create grazing land for cattle.

In the US, animals raised for food are fed more than eighty percent of the corn we grow and more than ninety-five percent of the oats. We are eating our country, we are eating our earth, we are eating our children."


What if those resources went to feeding the hungry? Even if you don't agree that animals deserve compassion (after all, we are animals too), its hard to argue that the world would be a cleaner, healthier, better fed place if we cut down meat consumption. And strokes to those of you choosing to buy organic/grass-fed/free-range/etc.

People tend to get apathetic when they believe that they cannot make a difference in the world. John Robbins has always inspired me. I believe I can make a difference and this is why I choose to be vegan. I have never made a better decesion, emotionally and physically.

Food for thought.

"we are eating our children."
Do they taste as good as chicken?

Do they taste as good as chicken?
mmm...chicken for dinner...