Foo - Help dealing with my biased professor...

This is for film class. My thesis: "Star Wars and The Hidden Fortress are glaringly similar films."

I got a 'B' on it.

BULLSHT

When I had it returned to me it said this:

All very good points, but your thesis is weak.

My response:

Thesis is clearly stated, succinct and focused. Check
Clear sense of order with a thesis sentence in the first paragraph. Supporting points are presented in a logical progression. Check
Thesis is fully developed. Each point is clearly and fully supported with specific details. Check
Uses technical terminology appropriately and correctly. No major grammatical or spelling errors. Check

Please let me know what I am missing from this list, else let me know how I can better support a radical thesis in under two pages.

I would like to get an 'A' in my next effort.
Thanks!

He came back with:

Your writing is fine. The problem is that your thesis is weak. That is the themes in the two films are actually quite different though some of the plot points are quite similar. Your first paragraph then is weak, and by logical extension the concluding paragraph is weak.

He didn't give me ANY pointers, he simply stated that he doesn't agree with my conclusion.

Here's the response I'm thinking of sending. It's definitely more aggressive than my first response, so I don't know if this is something that I should even send. I mean, I did get a B, so is pursuing that A really worth it?


If the thesis is supported by "good points" shouldn't that strengthen the thesis?

So I just needed a better thesis?

Next time I will come up with a thesis that you agree with more.

Thoughts?

Thoughts?

no, not really. I think you want the next room over.

Do you want to flunk the class? :eek:

Do you want to flunk the class? :eek:

No, but don't you agree that biases should be left aside when analyzing an argument?

If the argument is good, then it's good. Just because I'm arguing for something he doesn't agree with makes him a dickhole professor.

move. on.

well, go ask the *******.


why do you drink? why do you smoke? why do you live like the songs that you wrote? huh?

I know you are going to think i'm just picking on you because of the previous thread, but his remark was seriously what crossed my mind as i read your thesis.

"Star Wars and The Hidden Fortress are glaringly similar films."

You're comparing the two movies. Fine

"Star Wars and The Hidden Fortress are glaringly similar films."

Frankly, "glaringly" is a bit wordy.

"Star Wars and The Hidden Fortress are glaringly similar films."

glar·ing
–adjective
1. shining with or reflecting a harshly bright or brilliant light.
2. very conspicuous or obvious; flagrant: several glaring errors in spelling.

sim·i·lar
1. having a likeness or resemblance, esp. in a general way: two similar houses.

So you're saying that they are clearly alike in a general way? Glaringly and similar just don't go along together. When you say glaringly you are saying that it is without a doubt, when you say similar you are saying that they are...kind of alike.

So the two movies are without a doubt kind of alike.

Weak.


Lastly, unless it was a "compare and contrast" assignment, it is a weak approach to a paper...a sort of cop-out if you ask me.

I don't know if this is what is on his mind, but i'm more inclined to believe his responses...and i haven't even read your entire paper.

No, but don't you agree that biases should be left aside when analyzing an argument?

If the argument is good, then it's good. Just because I'm arguing for something he doesn't agree with makes him a dickhole professor.

He never actually said anything about the validity of your argument. He told you that your thesis is weak. I'm inclined to agree with him. Since the thesis is the foundation to the paper, if it is weak it is very difficult to have a strong paper. Thus, by nature, a weak thesis is going to lend itself to a weak body and a weak conclusion.

Why are you in school, since you obviously think you know everything.
Here's a crazy idea. How about actually listening to you teacher and learning something, instead of thinking you right and he's wrong, because chances are he knows more than you.

Yeah it is a cop out, but it was one of the options he presented to us so I took it.

It's not even a real paper, he wouldn't accept anything more than two pages. The amount of excess I had to cut out in order to meet that requirement did not make me feel comfortable at all. If I had that extra material, I could have better supported the thesis (believe me)

Anyway, thanks for the input.

Bear in mind as well that you can make valid arguments for a Thesis, and still have a weak thesis or an incorrect conclusion.

There's a story my Grampa used to tell me about a researcher researching Grasshopper behavior.

He proposed a thesis in his argument that grasshoppers hear with their legs. In the course of proving his thesis, first, he set off a loud noise, nd the grasshopper jumped.

Second empiric proof: He removed one of the grasshoppers rear legs and set off the loud noise. The grasshopper still jumped.

Third, he removed the grasshoppers other rear leg. He set off the loud noise and the grasshopper just sat there.

Hence, a grasshopper hears with his rear legs. There can be a correlation made, but not a true causation. Correlation =/= causation....or a weak or even invalid assumption for the basis of the thesis.

Yeah it is a cop out, but it was one of the options he presented to us so I took it.

It's not even a real paper, he wouldn't accept anything more than two pages. The amount of excess I had to cut out in order to meet that requirement did not make me feel comfortable at all. If I had that extra material, I could have better supported the thesis (believe me)

Anyway, thanks for the input.

I'm not sure what makes a "real" paper. It certainly isn't an easy paper with that page requirement, but that is very typical in college.

Long papers are equally difficult, but for the exactly opposite reason. If you can't formulate a compelling argument in 2 pages you aren't going to be able to do it in 30.

Yeah it is a cop out, but it was one of the options he presented to us so I took it.

It's not even a real paper, he wouldn't accept anything more than two pages. The amount of excess I had to cut out in order to meet that requirement did not make me feel comfortable at all. If I had that extra material, I could have better supported the thesis (believe me)

Anyway, thanks for the input.

quality, not quantity.

Why are you in school, since you obviously think you know everything.
Here's a crazy idea. How about actually listening to you teacher and learning something, instead of thinking you right and he's wrong, because chances are he knows more than you.

If you look at my first response, you'll see that I was open to more suggestion as to how I can do better. He said there was nothing wrong writing, he just didn't agree with my opinion.

The idea of the paper is to argue for your opinion. If I succeeded in justifying my opinion (afterall, I had "very good points") then I should get something better than a lame B.

quality, not quantity.

Crap...I actually have to agree with Botto for once.

If you look at my first response, you'll see that I was open to more suggestion as to how I can do better. He said there was nothing wrong writing, he just didn't agree with my opinion.

The idea of the paper is to argue for your opinion. If I succeeded in justifying my opinion (afterall, I had "very good points") then I should get something better than a lame B.

You are missing the point, glaringly.

He said your "writing was fine" but that your "thesis was weak". A weak thesis doesn't equate to an invalid argument, nor does "fine" writing equate to a compelling argument.

If your thesis truly only consisted of "Star Wars and The Hidden Fortress are glaringly similar films," instead of just "weak" he might have also mentioned it was rather vague. As already touched on, that's nothing more than stating the fact that the films are similar; hardly an elightening or interesting statement.

I had an English professor for a couple of semesters that required all of his assigned papers to be no longer than two pages, though he preferred one. His stance was that, as English majors, when faced with writing a longer paper students are tempted to add a lot of filler; for shorter papers, students would be required to get to the point without a lot of extra BS, resulting in a more concise and effective finished product.

I would also add that a "B" for a supposedly well written paper lacking a strong thesis is pretty common. Sure, you had "very good points," but the lack of a strong thesis keeps you from having a "perfect" or "A" paper.

If your thesis truly only consisted of "Star Wars and The Hidden Fortress are glaringly similar films," instead of just "weak" he might have also mentioned it was rather vague. As already touched on, that's nothing more than stating the fact that the films are similar; hardly an elightening or interesting statement.

I had an English professor for a couple of semesters that required all of his assigned papers to be no longer than two pages, though he preferred one. His stance was that, as English majors, when faced with writing a longer paper, students are tempted to add a lot of filler; for shorter papers, students would be required to get to the point without a lot of extra BS, resulting in a more concise and effective finished product.

It's the result of poor writing practices taught in middle and high school.

From the University of Iowa's History Writing Center


As you work on your essay, your ideas will change and so will your thesis. Here are examples of weak and strong thesis statements.

* Unspecific thesis: "Eleanor Roosevelt was a strong leader as First Lady."

This thesis lacks an argument. Why was Eleanor Roosevelt a strong leader?

* Specific thesis: "Eleanor Roosevelt recreated the role of the First Lady by her active political leadership in the Democratic Party, by lobbying for national legislation, and by fostering women’s leadership in the Democratic Party."

The second thesis has an argument: Eleanor Roosevelt "recreated" the position of First Lady, and a three-part structure with which to demonstrate just how she remade the job.

*

Unspecific thesis: "At the end of the nineteenth century French women lawyers experienced difficulty when they attempted to enter the legal profession."

No historian could argue with this general statement and uninteresting thesis.

*

Specific thesis: "At the end of the nineteenth century French women lawyers experienced misogynist attacks from male lawyers when they attempted to enter the legal profession because male lawyers wanted to keep women out of judgeships."

This thesis statement asserts that French male lawyers attacked French women lawyers because they feared women as judges, an intriguing and controversial point.

Bear in mind as well that you can make valid arguments for a Thesis, and still have a weak thesis or an incorrect conclusion.

There's a story my Grampa used to tell me about a researcher researching Grasshopper behavior.

He proposed a thesis in his argument that grasshoppers hear with their legs. In the course of proving his thesis, first, he set off a loud noise, nd the grasshopper jumped.

Second empiric proof: He removed one of the grasshoppers rear legs and set off the loud noise. The grasshopper still jumped.

Third, he removed the grasshoppers other rear leg. He set off the loud noise and the grasshopper just sat there.

Hence, a grasshopper hears with his rear legs. There can be a correlation made, but not a true causation. Correlation =/= causation....or a weak or even invalid assumption for the basis of the thesis.

This made me laugh because katydids, closely related to grasshoppers, actually do have hearing organs on their legs :D (Grasshoppers have their hearing organs on the abdomen, but still...) Makes me wonder about that discovery...

don't mind me, spent too long in Research Methods...

Good analogy Tom, but I don't think it applies here. I'm supporting an opinion, not a fact.

So is everyone saying that I should tailor my paper to the professor's taste?
My opinions are invalid no matter the evidence?

Seriously, what am I missing?

http://www.fileshare.com/hd4g3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KANI2dpXLw)

You know,
I had heard about kids arguing with Profs about grades and such, but I'd never seen it before.

Needs work.

No amount of verbage will make up for a weak thesis. It would be wonderful if people actually realized this. I like your teacher, and I generally don't think much of teachers. Sounds like your teacher has his head on straight.

You proceed not to understand by being willing to defend to the death with your teacher the right not to understand his point. :eek: Again, your current point is weak as well. Perhaps you need to learn when you don't have a case?

You did not choose wisely in your thesis, I would suggest not making it worse. And, a teacher can't teach you how to choose a good thesis, except the way he is doing.

And, by your own admission, you went for the cop-out. You think the teacher doesn't realize it? Since you went for a cop-out, why do you think you deserve an "A"? Generally, going the direction of the cop-out will cause you to pass, but not get an "A".

It isn't the professor who is biased in my opinion.

Good analogy Tom, but I don't think it applies here. I'm supporting an opinion, not a fact.

So is everyone saying that I should tailor my paper to the professor's taste?
My opinions are invalid no matter the evidence?

Seriously, what am I missing?

I don't know if you're intending to or not but you're coming off as a pissant. I don't think you mean to, which is why i'm going to try again.

Unspecific thesis: "Eleanor Roosevelt was a strong leader as First Lady."
Unspecific thesis: "Star Wars and The Hidden Fortress are glaringly similar films."

Specific thesis: "Eleanor Roosevelt recreated the role of the First Lady by her active political leadership in the Democratic Party, by lobbying for national legislation, and by fostering women’s leadership in the Democratic Party."
Specific thesis: "________________________"


...fill in the blank?

Crap...I actually have to agree with Botto for once.

The humanity! :lol:

Crap...I actually have to agree with Botto for once.

Try not to read too many of his posts, i tend to find that happing more frequently :(

So is everyone saying that I should tailor my paper to the professor's taste?
My opinions are invalid no matter the evidence?

Nowhere did the professor or anyone here say your opinions were invalid, just that the way they were presented in your introduction/thesis is weak. What are we missing here?

Crap...I actually have to agree with Botto for once.


i never realized that you were wrong so often.

A complete thesis is not a requirement for that A. Also, since I had to trim down the paper, all that fluff went out the window. Instead I argued my points in the rest of the paper.

But I get your point.

New response


Your response doesn't seem to clearly distinguish the difference between a "strong thesis" and one that mirrors your point of view. Are we simply disagreeing or did I fail to make my point?

A complete thesis is not a requirement for that A. Also, since I had to trim down the paper, all that fluff went out the window. Instead I argued my points in the rest of the paper.

But I get your point.

Apparently it was.

New response

How about:

How can i improve my thesis on my next paper?

Bickering peasants/droids, defeated princess being spirited away to rebuild the army of her family, arduous journey led by an old general? There are lots of similarities, Lucas himself has acknowledged The Hidden Fortress' influences. Focusing on any one of those aspects would have made for a stronger thesis than to simply say they're "glaringly similar."

I have to agree with your professor.

Bickering peasants/droids, defeated princess being spirited away to rebuild the army of her family, arduous journey led by an old general? There are lots of similarities, Lucas himself has acknowledged The Hidden Fortress' influences. Focusing on any one of those aspects would have made for a stronger thesis than to simply say they're "glaringly similar."

I have to agree with your professor.

Those are all points that were outlined in the rest of the paper. A complete thesis was NOT a requirement for an A. I'm sending that email now.

All: Thanks.

Those are all points that were outlined in the rest of the paper. A complete thesis was NOT a requirement for an A. I'm sending that email now.

All: Thanks.

I don't think you fully understand the purpose of a thesis. Good luck fighting with your professor...he's rolling his eyes, FYI.

Well, short of taking any advice on the proper writing of a thesis, I'm guessing the next best thing is to just indignantly declare that your professor hates you. That always worked for all of the kids I knew in junior high school that weren't getting the grades they felt they "deserved."

Well, short of taking any advice on the proper writing of a thesis, I'm guessing the next best thing is to just indignantly declare that your professor hates you. That always worked for all of the kids I knew in junior high school that weren't getting the grades they felt they "deserved."

After all, it isn't like people go to school or college to learn anything. :p

You would think someone might be happy to discover they don't know it all - otherwise all that money is just wasted...

How about:

How can i improve my thesis on my next paper?

There you go!!

I'm not saying anybody hates me. I'm just wondering why I received the grade I got. Thus far he hasn't given me a good answer. What I'm doing is seeking that answer. I don't see why anything I'm doing is bad.

Full response:

Your response doesn't seem to clearly distinguish the difference between a "strong thesis" and one that mirrors your point of view. Basic themes were touched on in the conclusion, however the rest of the paper did focus on plot points. I did not opt for an open thesis due to the space constraint (I actually had to modify margins in order for the whole thing to fit), but having a complete thesis was not a requirement in the grading rubric.

Are we simply disagreeing or did I fail to make my point? How can I improve on my thesis in the future?


Lookie, he already responded:

Actually you fail to make your point. I don’t actually have a point of view, but you need to write convincingly about your point of view. In this case your point was unproven. It was either correct nor incorrect.

Hmm, didn't he say earlier that I make good points? Why is he giving me the runaround?

At this point I give up because he's avoiding giving me ideas improve my thesis (though timmy gave me pointers already) even though I clearly asked for assistance on that part. Also, by praising my supporting points and then later negating them makes me believe that he's just trying to shrug me off.

Wow, what a great teacher.

As a college instructor, I have to agree that this was a weak thesis, thus making the entire paper and conclusion weak. timmyquest has it dead on, the thesis for any paper should be strong, purposeful, and to the point. Trying to argue that Star Wars and The Hidden Fortress are similar would take an incredible amount of space and is quite boring. An example of a stronger thesis would have been something like "Although quite different movies, Star Wars and The Hidden Fortress follow many of the same plot points." or something like that.

Good luck with your argument.

It sounds like a B paper. Grades are not really a negotiation and a B isn't really a bad grade.

My policy as an instructor was that I was always willing to reevaluate a grade. That includes the possibility that I might lower the grade if I was soft when I graded it the first time. It scares off the chumps for the most part, but I have lowered grades by as much as a whole letter grade.

Maybe he's tired of thesis papers by Star Wars geeks. ;)

Maybe your next one should be titled 'C3PO - Can a robot be gay?'

Star Wars papers would actually be high brow compared to some I have had to slog through. Papers about the legalization of pot get an automatic C in my class.

By the way, Star Wars is REQUIRED viewing for this class. It's a film I know well, that I decided to do the compare and contrast thing with it.

Wow barba, you let your bias get in the way of analyzing a student's argument? That's kind of what I'm talking about here...

I still haven't figured out what the professor is biased against.

Other than weak theses, that is. Or grade inflation.

By the way, Star Wars is REQUIRED viewing for this class. It's a film I know well, that I decided to do the compare and contrast thing with it.

Wow barba, you let your bias get in the way of analyzing a student's argument? That's kind of what I'm talking about here...

You're really missing the big point...

You're really missing the big point...

I've moved on from the old topic. I get it, my thesis sucked. What are you pointing out now?

Wow barba, you let your bias get in the way of analyzing a student's argument? That's kind of what I'm talking about here...

What bias? I am all for marijuana, but there is no more compelling argument for its continued prohibition than NORML rallies and undergraduate papers.

Post your paper if you want an actual evaluation, by the way. Again, a B is a respectable grade.

move. on.

+1

tutors/profs/academics can hold a grudge for a very long time and they never forget.

We also don't like your avatar. :D

Really, the reason your points didn't support your argument is you didn't really state an opinion. One of the things that kills me as a teacher is when I ask a question or assign paper that requires personal reflection and thought, and I get a regurgitation of facts that really doesn't do anything but repeat class notes. I very rarely get papers with a strong position and good back up.

I teach history and I will try to ask questions that get the students to evaluate a situtation, and they cannot or will not take the facts and form an opinion. How were the movies similar? What was different? If that isn't in the thesis, it seems tacked on.