Yep that is the problem with Fred, he is usually right.:)

I promise I will try to work on that... :o

I promise I will try to work on that... :o

That's what wives are for.

That wasn't insight, it was opinion.

You are welcome to respond to it.

Heck, you might even have something intelligent to say......:rolleyes:

I had a constructive PM discussion with Tom Stormcrowe which I will not repeat in its entirety but it's crux was pretty simple:

In my (admittedly probably incomplete) observation it seemed that most of the problems surrounding ryanf was the reaction of other members. He'd post something silly and juvenile (and at least he had the excuse of being juvenile) and a number of other members (without ryanf's excuse) would get bent out of shape,verbally challenge him and, also, apparently report to the moderators. Since nobody is forced to click any one thread link, I don't see how that's ryanf's fault and considering some of the venom in the replies to his posts; I don't understand why he got banned. That and the apparent, to me and I could be mis-perceiving, joy on the part of some of the moderators in banning him makes me view this as unfair and is the reason why I'm taking time out of my Spring Break to advocate for a kid I've never met.

Also, it seems to me the "Mods had to work real hard argument" fails in this case. Frankly, if I were a mod and someone complained about a silly post my response would be "shut up, ignore it and move on." Would lower the workload. ;)


:beer:

Walter, at your request, I am responding to this post. You are correct that this is mostly about member's reactions, not Ryan. He was not an idiot. When he wanted to, he was capable of logical and coherent posts. But that was not usually the case, as it did not get him the attention he seemed to sorely need. Instead, we got "guads", "hamer", etc. He knew better, especially after other members pointed out his errors. Did he change his posting? Nope. And this lead to some posts that ridiculed him, and other posts where he was called out for trolling for attention. Of course, a great many of those posts were reported to the mod queue. One member's entertainment is another member's annoyance.

It doesn't matter if he was an earnest (but slightly confused) kid, or someone perpetrating an elaborate ruse. What started out as a joke ended up being a very high maintenance issue. We will only ask so many times for a little cooperation before we throw our hands up and give someone the boot.

As far as some moderators being ban-happy, there may be a certain element of truth to that. But we have a decent cross section of demographics represented by our moderation team for that exact reason. Other moderators (Tom is a fine example) are much more likely to give out 2nd, 3rd, or 4th chances. This is exactly why we discuss things amongst ourselves before any major action is taken. Anyone familiar with TAT (now located elsewhere, and called TAN) knows why we do things this way.

Finally, telling members to ignore other members rarely has the desired effect. And even then, there's always going to be someone quoting the ignored member.

Does that help?

Brian,

I appreciate your reply and with this will bow out of the "Great Please let ryanf Return Debate." I guess we will just have to agree to disagree but this is not the first time I've lost a debate and most certainly won't be the last.

To me, you took the expedient approach to pacify other members who, in the final analysis, are at least as immature as ryanf was. I mean, if misspelling "quads" and "hammer" gets you that upset then you have more issues than can be addressed via the internet. However, pacifying many at the expense of one does make sense and I can understand why you did it, I just don't agree. Oh well.

I, personally, have never had a problem with the moderation but I avoid flame wars as I avoid the plague, rap music and Hank Williams, Jr. I do think 1 or 2 of the mods egged Ryan on and then, when they got mad, exercised their authority. That, however, is for you to deal with as you do or do not see fit.

Thank you again for the reply. I understand your position and even if I don't agree with it will not drag this on ad infinitum.

The moderators have explained their position and reasons for banning Ryanf. I will say one last thing and will leave it at that: I have never given one individual more chances than him. Ever. I tried, I really did, to help him, as did many (most) of the moderators. This was certainly not a case of being ban happy. Unless you count banning the duplicate log-ins he would create after his main user being banned. He did that, a lot.

You, help him? Ha! Teach him how to discuss the merits of clipless pedals? Campy v. Shimano?

Moderators: This is some mess that you've got yourselves into.

Brian,

I appreciate your reply and with this will bow out of the "Great Please let ryanf Return Debate." I guess we will just have to agree to disagree but this is not the first time I've lost a debate and most certainly won't be the last.

To me, you took the expedient approach to pacify other members who, in the final analysis, are at least as immature as ryanf was. I mean, if misspelling "quads" and "hammer" gets you that upset then you have more issues than can be addressed via the internet. However, pacifying many at the expense of one does make sense and I can understand why you did it, I just don't agree. Oh well.

I, personally, have never had a problem with the moderation but I avoid flame wars as I avoid the plague, rap music and Hank Williams, Jr. I do think 1 or 2 of the mods egged Ryan on and then, when they got mad, exercised their authority. That, however, is for you to deal with as you do or do not see fit.

Thank you again for the reply. I understand your position and even if I don't agree with it will not drag this on ad infinitum.

He joined in February, 2007, and managed to get in over 1,300 posts before being banned. I think he must have been on here for about 8 months, so I guess I'm not seeing the expedient part. When I searched for him, I brought up a post of his that seemed to be lacking for the most part in any sort of major grammatical error that he was so well known for. He could English goodly when he wanted to. ;)

By the way, he still reads the forums, and has probably been following this thread.

well, SM, it was moved so that less people would view it because they don't want to deal with it. the next step, if moderation follows previous ways, the thread will either get locked down or deleted altogether.

bring the kid back.

WP - Take this as coming from someone who likes you.

I recall that a certain WP was harassed by a certain Ryan F and that a certain WP took great offence at his offensive language and threats of violence in off site areas which is a pretty clear breach of forum guidelines and even if it wasn't would rate a lifetime ban.

I witnessed a good deal of this firsthand.

So now you want the kid back ?

:rolleyes:

To me this looks more like a convenient opportunity for you to bash the moderation team... again.

Give it a rest.

Folks get banned because despite being warned and being given ample opportunity they insist on acting like dicks, disrupt the forums, or wreak carnage behind the scenes and make the moderators and admins crazy.

And then when someone gets banned folks come out of the woodwork and act like whiney kids because someone they liked got detention or complain because they aren't given every freaking detail.

I appreciate that a site with 130,000 members runs as smoothly as it does as it is a huge magnet for trolls and spammers... and who do you think keeps things running smoothly ?

I must be livin' on the freakin' edge as more than once I have been threatened with a blue star.

I promise to shape up as to avoid that punishment.

:D

I must be livin' on the freakin' edge as more than once I have been threatened with a blue star.

I promise to shape up as to avoid that punishment.

:D

It's unavoidable.

WP - Take this as coming from someone who likes you.

I recall that a certain WP was harassed by a certain Ryan F and that a certain WP took great offence at his offensive language and threats of violence in off site areas which is a pretty clear breach of forum guidelines and even if it wasn't would rate a lifetime ban.

I witnessed a good deal of this firsthand.

So now you want the kid back ?

:rolleyes:

To me this looks more like a convenient opportunity for you to bash the moderation team... again.

Give it a rest.

Folks get banned because despite being warned and being given ample opportunity they insist on acting like dicks, disrupt the forums, or wreak carnage behind the scenes and make the moderators and admins crazy.

And then when someone gets banned folks come out of the woodwork and act like whiney kids because someone they liked got detention or complain because they aren't given every freaking detail.

I appreciate that a site with 130,000 members runs as smoothly as it does as it is a huge magnet for trolls and spammers... and who do you think keeps things running smoothly ?

Duely noted.

and, i don't think i'm the only one who had a problem with the way mods handled that situation and ones to follow. but, hey, i'm not in that circle, so what do i know?

*edit* just decided to remove my comments as they will appear to be of teh 'mod bashing' type and i just would rather let the subject drop than continue on with something such as that. it gets no one anywhere.

Later - K.

On bad days, I have at times felt like I have come across rude or insensitive. Immediately I try to fire off a PM to a moderator asking forgiveness - and perhaps a few Hail Marys. :D They always come back as "don't sweat it - it wasn't a problem"

These are times I feel like I stepped over the line - not intentially, but due to perhaps being irritable one day or something (try having 40 employees who all speak a language not of your birth someday working in a culture and country that is strange too).

Why do I get cut some slack, and someone like RyanF didn't? Intention. It is my intention to be part of the community as a good citizen. BF even lets me bore people about my trees and our work down here in Costa Rica. I asked first too - if they had said no, I would have accepted that with no question.

The key, I am not an owner of BF. Let me repeat that, THIS SITE DOES NOT BELONG TO ME! I enjoy it, I participate in it, but it isn't mine. I cannot be causing more damage than the good I bring. People who merely lurk and read are bringing value. Those who contribute well mannered ramblings contribute. Those who give helpful advice, contribute. Those who participate in heated debate, that is within the guidelines, contribute. Those who merely use BF as a way to draw attention to themselves while causing heartburn to the moderators because the of the number of complaints, aren't worth the trouble.

just my dos colones

Fred, I don't mind hearing about the trees. And the monkeys.

Fred, I don't mind hearing about the trees. And the monkeys.

Hmmm, I don't remember ever mentioning monkeys - would that be me?

Speaking of monkeys though, we now have 3 of the species in the farms, howlers, white face and spider monkeys. When we began, all we had was howlers. Pretty neat.

You, help him? Ha! Teach him how to discuss the merits of clipless pedals? Campy v. Shimano?

Moderators: This is some mess that you've got yourselves into.

Mess, I don't see a mess. I see a bunch of people (once again) asking why a member was banned, something that the moderators have stated we are going to stop responding to. Others bringing up other old grudges against the mods. We, the moderators, are here trying to patiently and politely answer your questions to the extent that we feel comfortable with. And trying to do so without infringing on those members who are not here to speak for themselves (ie: ryanf).

Yes, we, the moderators made every attempt we could to help ryanf. I sure in hell know I did. I spent HOURS upon HOURS on this forum cleaning up the harassment he brought upon himself. PMing members asking them to lay off him, PMing HIM trying to explain why his threads were being locked and or removed. We don't ask for much, but when one person single handily creates a disruption and problems everywhere he goes, generating dozens of reports a day, what do YOU expect the moderators to do? Sit here and twiddle our thumbs?

If you haven't noticed by now I take some offense to being accused of being too ban happy and too judgemental in this case. The facts are he broke the community guidelines, multiple guidelines, endlessly. For goodness sake, go ride your bike and stop fretting over why one individual was banned.

Hmmm, I don't remember ever mentioning monkeys - would that be me?

Speaking of monkeys though, we now have 3 of the species in the farms, howlers, white face and spider monkeys. When we began, all we had was howlers. Pretty neat.

I saw some vacation photos...

and Ryanf is not a "real"

http://ryanf.wordpress.com
https://www.sportsbaseonline.com/Registrants.aspx?item_id=2435 (click on juniors in the drop down "category" menu box)

People, the ban isn't going to be lifted. He was a distraction, and would derail topics. If the ban was lifted on him and a couple of weeks later he'd probably fall back to posting the usual crap,

Now that the furor of those days is over I invite the mods to re-read any Ryanf thread with fresh eyes. All the crap is posted by other people. Try this one first: http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=352294&highlight= The first six or seven responses are all sarcastic putdowns. That's the true source of all the "Ryanf crap".

The only forum rule he broke (admittedly repeatedly) was making sock puppets, but that was because he was repeatedly banned because of other people's behaviour, not his own, and he couldn't tolerate the injustice.

When he wanted to, he was capable of logical and coherent posts. But that was not usually the case,


Actually he started out posting without much regard for spelling and grammer. and stuff like 'guads' and 'hamer' came from those early days. Then the mods insisted he improve the quality of his writing, and he worked hard to do so, so let's not now hold that against him.

cleaning up the harassment he brought upon himself. and how many harrassers did you ban?

Actually I'm not arguing that he come back. I think he's better off studying than posting here all the time. I just don't like to see him mischaracterized. He was/is an enthusiastic cyclist who became a lightning rod for all the pent up nastiness BFers are capable of.

that's all.

Actually I'm not arguing that he come back. I think he's better off studying than posting here all the time. I just don't like to see him mischaracterized. He was/is an enthusiastic cyclist who became a lightning rod for all the pent up nastiness BFers are capable of.

that's all.

So where is the thread chastising all those members that picked on him? I know the moderators are an easy target, but why is it that no one else wants to own up to being part of the problem?

So where is the thread chastising all those members that picked on him? I certainly made that point. Anyway, I've said my piece.

So where is the thread chastising all those members that picked on him?I certainly made that point. Anyway, I've said my piece.

there is/was no thread for chastising those who picked on ryan. no point in trying to find out why the ones doing the prevoking didn't get some sort of reprimand or a 3-7 day ban. were they not trolling on ryan then?

and, like cooker, i'm done.

Interesting...whole thread.

So, Brian, why have I never been banned?

Just curious.

Oh, and please ask Grumpygirl and Mighty Quin and Sixty Fiver (have I missed any? Joe Barflo - I know not), in case they are not reading, to weigh in.

Thanks.

I have been reading this thread after several days have gone by.

Have any of you gone to Ryan's blog and encouraged him? I know I have. He seems to be a nice young man, who should be encouraged--on his blog.

I have seen many times where members here vow they will never return and post here, because they have an issue with the way the board is being moderated. Please try to keep in mind that Internet Brands wants to make this the ABSOLUTE BEST bicycling forum out there. Be kind to people, and be helpful. Do we not want everyone to have a positive view of BF? Do we not want to encourage people to keep cycling, and enjoying this great activity?

Is that so hard? Why make ANYONE'S life harder? Just because someone is a moderator or an administrator doesn't mean they should wear a target on their back...

Go to Ryan's blog, and encourage him to do his best in life, and success in his racing. Make a difference to him there, and with our encouragement, he will win the Tour de France, and return, triumphant!

East Hill

Interesting...whole thread.

So, Brian, why have I never been banned?

Just curious.

Oh, and please ask Grumpygirl and Mighty Quin and Sixty Fiver (have I missed any? Joe Barflo - I know not), in case they are not reading, to weigh in.

Thanks.

Sorry, I forgot Hedgehog in the mix. ;)

EH !!!

How is the trip going ?

The shortbread was amazing but sadly... it's all gone.

this ain't about shortbread.

Sorry, I forgot Hedgehog in the mix. ;)

I actually made a list.

Damn.

:)

So, Brian, why have I never been banned?


That's a very valid question, and you're certainly not the first to ask it. Do you feel you should be?

this ain't about shortbread.

When you reduce everything down in to it's purest essence you will find that it really is all about shortbread.

:)

EH !!!

How is the trip going ?

The shortbread was amazing but sadly... it's all gone.

The trip has been AWESOME :D .

Shortbread all around to many of the members I have manage to meet so far :) .

I did a (ahem) Sixty Five mile ride today :p .

East Hill

I did a (ahem) Sixty Five mile ride today :p East Hill, this is a family forum! Do you want to get banned like RyanF?

The trip has been AWESOME :D .

Shortbread all around to many of the members I have manage to meet so far :) .

I did a (ahem) Sixty Five mile ride today :p .

East Hill

And you still have the energy left to type ?

Wow.

East Hill, this is a family forum! Do you want to get banned like RyanF?

No, please, anything but that :eek: !

Seriously, I rode the Cinderella Classic today, and it is a sixty five mile ride :p .

East Hill

And you still have the energy left to type ?

Wow.

I have a lot of catching up to do! Besides, I don't have a lot lined up for Sunday. I am in Santa Rosa, California, and am hoping to meet g-funk, visit Sebastopol (I used to live there), and then head up to Fort Bragg, where I hope to get in some riding :) .

East Hill

When you reduce everything down in to it's purest essence you will find that it really is all about shortbread.

:)

I ate three pieces so far. Just warming up more tea so I can have more. Thanks, EH. Yummy goodness. I dunno....pistachio or shortbread...pistachio or shortbread....


*goes to heat up tea*

there is/was no thread for chastising those who picked on ryan. no point in trying to find out why the ones doing the prevoking didn't get some sort of reprimand or a 3-7 day ban. were they not trolling on ryan then?

and, like cooker, i'm done.


You keep saying this but you somehow still come on here. It's obvious you don't like this place or the way it is run so why do you keep coming back? You start crap with Ryan, complain about him and now you want him back? It just seems to me you like to start trouble. Just like you keep stirring up things when YOU chose to leave after the issues from last month. Good gracious, woman, let it go!! Do you like living in the past so much? Is your present so uninteresting that you need to get SOME kind of excitement in your life? You get your panties in a bunch you storm off in solidarity to your "friends" (birds of a feather flock together). For some reason you decide to come back (perhaps to stir things up again?) You go onto a forum and ask people if you are accepted back and they graciously do so. A couple of weeks go by and you are back to your old antics again.

Why do you do this? Why do you keep coming back if it is so bad here?

Have any of you gone to Ryan's blog and encouraged him? I know I have. He seems to be a nice young man, who should be encouraged--on his blog.

Actually yes I have, a couple of times. He has his first race in another month or so, I'm hoping he does well. I know he wants it bad enough.

Actually yes I have, a couple of times. He has his first race in another month or so, I'm hoping he does well. I know he wants it bad enough.

Cool! I know that Ryan will enjoy himself, and I believe he will win some races too :D !

Ryan, don't give up!

East Hill

Does any need any further explanation, or can we close this thread?

That's a very valid question, and you're certainly not the first to ask it. Do you feel you should be?

No, but there's a whole bunch of folks I feel should be. You know, members who harass?

I've never harassed but I have a strong sense of humor (one you favor) and I've never so much as been threatened to be banned...well, except after reporting a member who was harassing me, but that's a whole other topic.

Does any need any further explanation, or can we close this thread?

I for one, don't need any explanation, but thanks for asking. ;)

keep him banned. the kid was not a productive member, no matter how entertaining. (not that i'm always a "productive" member, either.)

keep him banned. the kid was not a productive member, no matter how entertaining. (not that i'm always a "productive" member, either.)

Being "productive" is not a consideration when it comes to banning. Otherwise, I would have been gone a long time ago. :eek: "Disruptive" is the key word here.

Moderators: This is some mess that you've got yourselves into.

:roflmao:

Made my day seeing that comment! I've spent years moderating and adminning forum boards, so please let me share a little wisdom gleaned during those years:



It can be great fun when a "village idiot" appears on a forum board.
Despite the fun there is to be had, it's also unsettling to have a village idiot active on a board, and the bulk of fallout from that occurs behind the scenes.
Ultimately, the only realistic option forum supervisors have available to them, in order to restore smooth operation of the board they supervise, is to remove the village idiot from the premises.
Eventually, even the most diehard amongst the disgruntled stop complaining about it.



:D

So, how long till Patentcad is gone? :lol:

Sorry PCad - but I just couldn't resist. :D

It can be great fun when a "village idiot" appears on a forum board...it's also unsettling

Not to prolong the Ryanf debate, but just talking about the phenomenon in general, how much of the idiocy actually comes from the "idiot", and how much from the rest of the villagers?