Mountain Biking - Anybody ever gone from a full suspension back to a hardtail?

I'm thinking about switching to a titanium hardtail frame. I have a '01 Stumpjumper FSR xc Pro. Since I bought my Lightspeed road bike I've ridden it very little. I fell in love with the way my titanium frame road bike rides and handles. Every time I've gotten back on the stumpy I feel like half my energy is being sucked away by the bobbing of the suspension. I've increased the air pressure in my shock to try to stiffen it up and I've even ridden several times with the shock locked out which leaves me wondering if I could survive without a full suspension.

About a year ago an acquaintance I know was in the same predicament. He bought a Litespeed hardtail frame to replace his S-Works full suspension frame and said it was the best thing he ever did. He said the ti frame didn't have the suspension bob when he pedaled but was compliant enough to give a much smoother ride than an aluminum frame. I've tried to contact him to discuss it further but can't find him.

Since my Stumpy frame is too large for me anyway I now have a couple of excuses to buy a new frame. I've been looking at the Habanero as well as some other titanium frames that are a fraction of the price of a Litespeed. I've also looked at an S-Works Epic frame thats on sale but it will cost double what a Habanero will cost me.

So back to my question has anyone else been down this road before?

Yes, I just bought a hardtail dirt/urban.

I'm still a novice and felt that full suspension was making rides fun but way too easy and not helping me develop the proper riding skills. Boy was I ever right.

Things on trails (like logs, roots) that I could glide over on my lightweight XC full sus, is much harder and takes more skill on my new hardtail. I think I'll speed up my learning process -- and endos -- two fold on the hardtail.

Although hardtails have their limitations on x-treme downhills, there's something primal and beautifully derivative about riding one. It's the difference between the survivalist who roughs it (the hardtail) versus the camper in a Winnebago and gas grill (the full suspension). Both enjoy the outdoors in different ways.

I feel like half my energy is being sucked away by the bobbing of the suspension.

If riding a road bike will teach you anything it is to spin the cranks. If you spin the cranks on your mtb you will get better traction and a lot less bob. Switch to a lower gear and spin faster.

Also, if you have rough trails I would say keep the fs. You will wish you had the first time you ride over a rock garden with a ht.

:beer:

Now that I've been shopping I've run across another option. I found a '01 Giant NRS frame that includes the shock that I can pickup for $800.00. The LBS owner assured me that the NRS would not bob like the Stumpjumper but he didn't have any fully built bikes in my size that I could test ride.

Assuming that he is telling me the truth and isn't just trying to unload a frame that is nearly 3 years old this frame would solve the problem of bob. Since it is the correct size my frame size issue would be fixed as well. By the time I buy seatpost, headset, BB, front dérailleur the cost will be roughly $1000.00 which is about where I'd be if I bought the Habby HT. So now the price factor is about even and I'm back to the dilemma of Titanium HT or FS.

I agree with dirtbikedude that spinning is the way to go and yes I've been spinning at a higher cadance for the sake of my knees but the Stumpy still bobs. I believe I have a pretty smooth pedal stroke. Riding my rollers has helped with that and when I do one-legged spins it all seems pretty smooth so I'm pretty sure it's the bike.

The thing that keeps drawing me back to the Ti HT is the fact that the Ti frame looks so damn pretty. Am I sick? Do I need to see a cycle-therapist? ;)

Krispy i had the same dillema. Either to get a hardcore FS frame (specialized SX) or a Ti hardtail. The problem is that all Ti hardtails are skinny XC frames designed around XC forks. So my option was to go FS. I got an allu HT and it is tiring i must confess. It is good fun but tiring. Anyhow, if you are not racing XC then bobbing isnt such a bad thing. The NRS frame has problems, ghost shifts and load of flex of the rear end. Get a newer Specialized FSR design you ll feel lot better or if your FSR is in a good condition then get a new Fox ProPedal shock. From what i heard it helps a lot.

Get a newer Specialized FSR design you ll feel lot better or if your FSR is in a good condition then get a new Fox ProPedal shock. From what i heard it helps a lot.

Thanks for the advice on the NRS. I'm finding some of the things you mentioned are wrong with it in some of the reviews I'm reading. If it were not for the fact that my FSR frame is too big I would consider getting a different shock. But since I need to either replace the frame or the whole bike anyway I'm looking at all my options.

Maybe this will give you an idea of how much I dislike riding my Stumpy now; I was passing through Moab in September. I had both bikes with me but because of time limitations I could only do one ride while I was there. It was a choice between mountian biking on any of the spendid trails or riding my road bike. I ended up doing a road ride through Arches National Park!

Krispy i have the same problem with my HT frame...its too big for me to do technical and DH/FR sections, so i feel veeeery weak against the trail. I am 6.2 and the frame is 19". So i m going to get the SX Enduro in medium and solve my problems. What is your budget btw?

If your primary reason for switching to a hard-tail is for efficiency (no-bob), there are plenty of good options in terms of f/s bikes. My Santa Cruz Blur with the Progressive 5th Element shock has practically no bob. With this latest wave of anti-bob shock (the Fox Pro Pedal is another example) technology, I’m sure that you can find a great f/s rig that doesn’t bob much – if @ all.

I ride both a hard-tail (single-speed, steel), and a f/s rig. I love them both for what they are, and what they give to me. However my hard-tail isn’t any more efficient from a “bob perspective” than my f/s bike. Moreover, the Blur is probably a more efficient climber as the rear wheel really conforms to the terrain, and digs in.

Good luck with your choice!

BAC,
just wondering how you like the fox fx, i just ordered one for my blur to replace the vanilla i have on it right now. how is it on small bump absorbtion? do you find it alittle more tuff on your wrists and hands after a long epic ride? i decided to switch the vanilla fork out and put it on the used kona dawg frameset i ordered. i got the frame for a steal :D i'm gonna build it up to destruction bike durability

as for the main topic, i have a steel hardtail that i use on really smooth fire road trails or non tech singletrack, anything with more rocky, rooty, or drops i use my blur, anything bigger i'll use the dawg. i personally love the feel of a hardtail, it can handle tight twisty single track better then any of my other bikes IMO. but when your out for 3-4 hours of riding and you have rocky terrain the rear suspension is a god sent. i'm lucky enough to have a few bikes to choose from depending on the trail conditions. if i could only have one though it would be a XC full suspension.

I just recently bought a dually and wouldn't go without it. It allows me to use much less energy on much rougher terrain. My climbing has improved greatly (technical) and technical stuff has given me much more confidence.

However I would never go without my ht. I like djing on it, urban and just regular trails. I have the two part arsenal on purpose and wouldn't change a thing (except maybe to get a road bike for conditioning, but I really can't do that)

As for, if I could have one bike. 100% sure my dh bike. I have more overall fun on the trails out here. If I still lived in ontario then probably a smaller travel burly bike but it would still be dually. I don't have the skills or the time to REALLY take advantage of my ht.

BAC,
just wondering how you like the fox fx, i just ordered one for my blur to replace the vanilla i have on it right now. how is it on small bump absorbtion? do you find it alittle more tuff on your wrists and hands after a long epic ride?

To give you an idea as to how much I like this fork, I now have the Fox F100X on both my Blur and my hard-tail. Simply put, this fork is amazing, and suits my riding style perfectly. The fork performs exactly as advertised. It’s locked out until a bump from below unlocks the fork. You can easily dial-in how large of a bump is required to open the fork up. I currently have both forks set-up toward the plush end. Even @ the most plush setting, this fork will not open up by applying pressure from the rider – only a bump from below will open it up. Once it’s opened up, it’s as plush, and has all the other great attributes of the other Float models.

Understand that this fork is not as plush as the F100 RLC – I know as I’ve had time on both. If you want a fork that filters out absolutely everything, the TerraLogic fork may not be the fork for you. However, I’ve done some epic rides, and my wrists/arms don’t feel any difference @ the end of the day - remember, it's only locked out when the terrain is smooth. Better yet, when I get out of the saddle and mash the pedals, there is no wasted energy @ all. With the Progressive Air, and the TerraLogic, the Blur performs like a rigid bike when it comes to pedaling!

I have both, but ride my hardtail more.

For XC -
Years ago I had a GT LTS1, I broke the frame twice, toasted the pivots several times, plus my normal ride is 18-20 miles(9-10 to and from the trailhead) road and 10 offroad, so it was not very efficent. I went with the Litespeed Owl Hollow HT - big tubes, built very strong. I have the bike built to 23 Lbs. (with a Rhino lite on the rear). It's very strong and reliable. I've actually went through 2 DH/freeride style bikes while owning this, and I ride this much more, and on very rough trails. If I had to have one bike this would be it - If this one ever goes south, I'd buy another. It's a great all round reliable bike.

There's something to be said for a high-end, steel hardtail. I've been trying to justify an "upgrade" to full suspension for quite a while to replace my aging al. Kaitai, but after the innaugural ride on my new steel-frame Cove hardtail this weekend (my plan was to have one of each), I just can't seem to do it. The ride is very efficient yet more supple than my al. frame Kaitai. It's light and responsive (climbs incredibly well-I need climbing ability-I ride aggressive XC), yet soaks up a lot of the jarring, bumps that alum. will transmit directly to your body. I had the chance to demo a Gary Fisher Cake a couple of weeks ago (a very sexy bike) and have to say that my new Cove has many of the same ride characteristics for a fraction of the cost, besides I don't get any of the creaking, increased maintenence and weight, and (albeit minimal) pedal bob that I've seen in the handfull of f/s rigs I've ridden. A hardtail is elegant simplicity and the essence of riding as far as I'm concerned. I think a high-quality steel or ti hardtail is a viable option to f/s unless you ride mostly downhill or do big drops-then I see the f/s advantage. I know that the industry is predicting the demise of the hardtail, but I see myself always riding one.

Well this quest for a new frame has expanded into the possibility of just buying a whole new bike. Now is the time to find decent deals on '03 bikes. I'm now comparing the Trek Fuel 90 (tried it last night and liked it but i'd want to upgrade the drive train right off the bat), Gary Fisher Sugar 2 + (I have an appointment to test ride one this afternoon), Bianchi full suspension (will ride tomorrow night), and the Giant NRS.

Anybody have any opinions on these?

I Have ALWAYS hated full suspension. All you really need is a nice set of front forks. I will always be a Hardtail guy

Amen, Brother. You has seen the light. After almost a year on a Fuel 90 thinking that it must be me after all the rave reviews I read, I sold it and moved back to a hardtail. Now I like riding my MTB, again. I had a Trek 7000 before the Fuel 90 and it was great. Really dumb move to go to full suspension. Now I am back on a '02 Scapin Blato hardtail with XT running gear and Avid mechanical disk brakes and a SID fork. Great package. Terrific fun. FS bikes for those who need the latest and greatest, regardless of how it performs. I'll take the HT and its light weight and responsive handling every time.

Paramount, From one to another the fuel is horrible with nasty bob and imo overrated ;)

FS is not always for those who need the newest and greatest. Some people, depending on the trail and speed, really do notice a signifigant difference in speed.

FS is not always for those who need the newest and greatest. Some people, depending on the trail and speed, really do notice a signifigant difference in speed.

As I've been pondering my original question I've started to become a little more observant of what other folks are riding on my favorite trail and I've noticed that very few people are riding hardtails.

Now there is another popular trail in the area that has virtually no hills and hardly any rocks. I see a lot of hardtails on that trail. Most of those are folks who have just purchased their first bike as well as some who have multiple bikes including hardtails. But I've observed that of the more experienced riders who are still riding hardtails the majority are half my age.

Just out of curiosity how old are those of you who are preferring the hardtails? I'm wondering if age is a factor? Could it be that as we get older a little shock absorption becomes more important than top speed?

I'm keeping my hardtail. I don't care for suspension for several reasons. One is increased maintenance, another is cost, another is that I'm just plain faster on the climbs than the guys I ride with who use full suspension. I have tried to put a relatively bombproof low maintenance bike together, and it seems so far like I have succeeded. The added complexity of rear suspension would be a hassle to me. My neighbor has a hardtail and an NRS, and he prefers the hardtail. Now, I'm in Michigan, and "rocky trails" here means there are lots of rocks in the dirt, I might feel different about things if I lived out west, where "rocky trails" means some dirt sprinkled on the rocks. It really depends on the terrain you ride most of the time, and your riding style. As for shock absorbtion, I use a Cane Creek Thudbuster, and cannot sing it's praises loudly enough.

i've got a 2 full sus and 1 steel hardtail, i still ride my hardtail on the less technical trails, smoother singletrack, easy fire roads, to the store. living out west we have a ton of rock gardens, boulders, very intimidating terrain, this is where i use my full suspension.

PS i'll never get rid of my steel hardtail, but i'll always have a full suspension too

Just out of curiosity how old are those of you who are preferring the hardtails? I'm wondering if age is a factor? Could it be that as we get older a little shock absorption becomes more important than top speed?

I am 28 but my trails (all of them) are riddled with drops, rock gardens, long root gardens and steep technical dhill sections. HOWEVER the reason I got the dually was two fold. The technical stuff on my ht was killing my knees and I wanted to go much faster which I knew the bike to some degree (mentally or physically) was slowing me down.

I use both and love both. Neither one will be eliminated from my family :)

I use both and love both. Neither one will be eliminated from my family :)
You know I keep coming back to this very thing. I probably just need both. If it werent for the fact that my Stumpy was the wrong size frame I think I'd just build up a nice hardtail and have the best of both. But I need to do something about the Stumpy whether it is replacing it with a hardtail or a FS. I' found a nice '03 Gary Fisher Sugar 2 + last night. I would have bought it if it were not for the fact that the LBS didn't want to make a very good deal on it. It's not that I couldn't afford it, it's that for the price they wanted I could wait another month for the '04s to arrive and buy one for nearly the same price.

If I only knew I could survive on a hardtail through the winter I'd build the hardtail now and then shop for a FS after all the '04s have come in and people have reviewed them. Hmmm..... now that's a thought.....

You know I keep coming back to this very thing. I probably just need both.

Make yourself happy, and do just that!!!!!!!!!! :)

I will be 56 next month. Only tow people in my club ride a FS at the moment. The rest of us are on HTs. That includes about ten of us who are over 50. Our most agressive and strongest rider is actually on a Trek 820, which has no suspension. And no one we have riden with can keep up with him (he is an Ironman triathelete in his spare time). I don't think age has much to do with it. Of the several folks I know who have gone back to HT rides, we have all been of a like mind. Too much weight to haul around with a FS bike and they don't work that well until one gets into the high dollar category.

Make yourself happy, and do just that!!!!!!!!!! :)

Yes, more bikes = more happy! :D

I just can't afford to do it all at once though. But eventually I'll get there. :D

I have a friend who took early retirement. All he does week in and week out is tinker with and ride his bikes. He has more bikes in his garage than some bike shops do!

I will be 56 next month. Only tow people in my club ride a FS at the moment. The rest of us are on HTs. That includes about ten of us who are over 50. Our most agressive and strongest rider is actually on a Trek 820, which has no suspension. And no one we have riden with can keep up with him (he is an Ironman triathelete in his spare time). I don't think age has much to do with it. Of the several folks I know who have gone back to HT rides, we have all been of a like mind. Too much weight to haul around with a FS bike and they don't work that well until one gets into the high dollar category.

How rough are the trails you ride on?

During my lunch break today I went to another LBS to check out their bikes. The owner who is 23, very fit, and races in the expert class showed me his selection of Surly and Salsa bikes. He recently tried to do a 24 hour race on his Surly Karate Monkey on one of our local trails. He said after the first lap he had to grab his team mates FS because he was so beat up. He said the race was in September and his back is still hurting him.

Rides here tend to be on narrow, twisty, heavily rooted single-track with lots of sand, loose dirt and smaller rocks. Big drops for us are 3-4 feet. Nothing like the FR stuff in NE and out west. We have lots of short (under 200 yards), steep climbs. Pretty techical, but requires more art than power and speed. Wet roots and narrow, twisty trails (many trees) do not lend themselves to particularly high rates of speed.

Both types have their place in MTB.

However, I don't think we should be "technophobes" and deny the advantages of full-suspension, nor should we totally write off the hard-tail as archaic.

There's pros, cons, and trade-offs for both types.

Depends on:

- how you ride as well as skill level.
- type of riding (e.g. urban street vs XC), terrain you ride.
- your physical limitations (i.e. averse to saddle sores, bad knees, etc.)
- recreational rider versus competitive
- how much money you have to spend on FS
- how much time/money you have to spend on maintenance
- on and on,...

Some of us who are fortunate to own more than one type can choose depending on our moods. Today, I feel like a hardtail guy.

However, one thing is true about "pogo sticks" today. They are lighter, better technology, and becoming more affordable than a few years back...

I have two bikes in my garage, a Specialized Bighit Comp and a lowish quality XC hardtail. I usually find myself riding the f/s but when I want to increase my skills I am on my ht. I don't know why but I find the FSR design on the Bighit is actually very efficent. But look at it this way, I love my hardtail and will never get rid of it, unless I get a new one.

There is no reason to compare HT and FS. It is like comparing MTB and road bikes. Obviously FS is the way to go. It sounds silly to want to suspend the front end of a bike but refuse to use rear suspension. The way for efficiency is clearly FS for the present and future. For die hard purists of simplicity (me included) someone should always have a hardtail along with any kind of FS. In the same context i will soon buy a new road bike which is my benchmark for simplicity and tradition.

I'm 33 years old. Stopped riding hardtails in 1996 when I bought my first FS rig. Five days after purchasing a new bike for my wife this year, I destroyed my current FS frame. Wasn't in the budget to buy a new FS frame so I bought a 2001 (but new) Schwinn Moab hardtail frame and swapped my parts over. Hated it. My wife felt sorry for me and recommended I get a similar setup as she has a "cush tail" (Rockshox suspension post on a WSD hardtail). Couldn't find a good price on a Rockshox post for a 26.8 so went w/ the Thudbuster. Difference is night and day. I love my hardtail now (though I guess technically its a cush tail... whatever). Now that I have the cash to buy a new bike, I'm not sure if I will go w/ a FS or a road bike, I love my Schwinn that much.

yup, magna to norco :p

Cush tail...I like that term. :)

I went several years riding duallies, swore I would never go back to a HT. Last year I went through the shop and posted for sale all the spare parts I had gathered up over the years, then I ended up somehow doing some swapping for a Cove HT. I built it up with some pretty good spec parts and ended up loving it. I even raced it a couple times. We always take it along on races as a backup bike now. For the majority of races a duallie is still superior but there are times when it's actually an advantage to be on a HT.

[QUOTE=bac] My Santa Cruz Blur with the Progressive 5th Element shock has practically no bob. With this latest wave of anti-bob shock (the Fox Pro Pedal is another example) technology, I’m sure that you can find a great f/s rig that doesn't bob much – if @ all.
QUOTE]

Well after all of my searching I ended up with just that. A Santa Cruz! However, I chose the Fox shock instead of the 5th Element. I was going to get the 5th Element but the ones that the shop had weren't holding air when I test rode it. They were going to have to send it back for warranty.They said they had only sold one to one customer and he had to send it back to have it rebuilt. They said it took over three weeks for the guy to get it back.

Anyway here is my new Santa Cruz frame. I disassembled my Stumpjumper tonight and tomorrow morning I'll start putting it all together.

Thanks everybody for all of your advice!

...Obviously FS is the way to go. It sounds silly to want to suspend the front end of a bike but refuse to use rear suspension. The way for efficiency is clearly FS for the present and future. For die hard purists of simplicity (me included) someone should always have a hardtail along with any kind of FS. In the same context i will soon buy a new road bike which is my benchmark for simplicity and tradition.

...But wouldn't you agree to some extent that it depends on what you're using the bike for?

I know most people know about the following info, but I'm just using it as support to why I think it depends...

No matter how well designs and materials have come in full-suspension designs, they are still inherently heavier than their hardtail counterparts...all else being equal of course (e.g. a full suspension Stumpjumper will be heavier than a Stumpjumper hardtail).

Therefore, for applications like trials riding, and urban stunt riding a hardtail may be more advantageous. In fact, hardtails are the de facto standard for those applications and the riders are choosing them not because they can't afford full suspension. It's for performance I'm sure. For tricks, even for such basic things as wheelies, it's easier to learn on a hardtail since the bike will be lighter than a full sus. and your rear balance point is more constant and stable. Yes, I know many full sussers have lockouts now, and some of you guys can hold a wheelie on a full sus. for three city blocks but you know what I mean...This is why I think that new disciplines of dirt-jumping and urban stunt riding have resurrected the hardtail from the threshold of obscurity.

Conversely, you'd definitely want the increased traction and shock-absorption of full suspension in downhill, and extreme freeriding where your health may even depend on it.

Hardtails aren't dead in those two wheelers with engines either. Many custom motorcyles don't have rear shocks either so it is totally reasonable to suspend the front end only in bikes and motorcycles depending on what it's intended use is for. It may not have the same shock absorption properties but it still tames the ride to put it bluntly.

So as much as I enjoy the comfort and easy ride of full sus. and see its benefits, I think, more than ever with all the different disciplines of mountain biking, the answer is "it depends".

Thanks for the advice on the NRS. I'm finding some of the things you mentioned are wrong with it in some of the reviews I'm reading. If it were not for the fact that my FSR frame is too big I would consider getting a different shock. But since I need to either replace the frame or the whole bike anyway I'm looking at all my options.

Maybe this will give you an idea of how much I dislike riding my Stumpy now; I was passing through Moab in September. I had both bikes with me but because of time limitations I could only do one ride while I was there. It was a choice between mountian biking on any of the spendid trails or riding my road bike. I ended up doing a road ride through Arches National Park!


You my friend are a SINNER! lol... (j/k)

U passed up Slickrock & Porcupine.. !? I can't believe you !!!

( I've been to Moab a lot now, and those are still my favorite trails)

-Matt

Let us know how you like the Santa Cruz. I also have a Specialized FSR and have been thinking about switching to what you just bought.


Thanks,

Bill F.

[QUOTE=bfong]Let us know how you like the Santa Cruz. I also have a Specialized FSR and have been thinking about switching to what you just bought.QUOTE]

I finally managed to get away from the house to ride. It was only 38 degrees but I just had to try out the Blur. I only rode 9 miles because I was running out of light and the temp was dropping. The trail I rode has a good variety of terrain and gave me a good idea of how the bike is going to handle.

It defiantly fits the bill if your looking for a bike that doesn't bob when you pedal but has good suspension when it's needed! I felt like I wasn't having to put forth as much effort to go down the trail. Because there is very little to no bob at all it accelerates instantly when you mash on the pedals.

It climbs much better than my Specialized FSR. As a matter of fact there is one steep hill that has always been a challenge on the FSR to keep the front wheel on the ground and not spin out with the rear tire. Because the FSR bobs so much I would always have to climb seated. This afternoon on the Blur I climbed that hill better than I ever have. The bike felt so stable that half way through the climb I stood up and finished the climb standing! I recently read in someone's review that the Blur climbs like a scalded monkey. When I reached the top I thought to myself "so that's what scalded monkeys climb like!"

In another section of the trail there is a long downhill with a sandpit at the bottom. I was able to hit the sand at a higher speed than the FSR because it felt so much more stable. The stability of the bike gave me confidence to go faster through some sections and it handled the tight twisty technical stuff just as well as the FSR.

One of the most impressive things though was the fact that I could ride the Blur no-handed even on some sections of singletrack! My FSR was so twitchy and unstable that I couldn't even ride it on level pavement no-handed. I have even tried it with slicks on and the shock locked out but couldn't even take my hands off the bar without it trying to throw me.

The June '03 issue of Bicycle Magazine did a full page review of the Blur. About the only thing negative they said about it was that it is a little too heavy to be a race bike. It is about 1.5 to 2 lbs heavier than the Stumpjumper FSR xc Pro. Although I'm not racing I believe it would be a good race bike because it feels more stable.

I believe my comparison of the two bikes is pretty fair. With the exception of a new headset, bb, and front derailleur all of the components including tires and wheels came off of my Specialized Stumpjumper FSR xc Pro.

Although it was only my first ride I was impressed enough that I am very confident that I made the right decision in buying the Blur!

welcome to the blur family :D

welcome to the blur family :D
:D :D :D

i have a hardtail centurion M6, these hardtails are built for speed but not jumps lik rough terrain. coz the bike bounces too often if u r riding downhill. thats the bad part of hardtails.even though it is a bit heavy it does allow u to do whelie and stuff. BUt full suspension is one heavy bike. it is 10fold heavier than hard-tails. the full suspension. r gud for downhills but not uphills. coz they r soo darn heavy that u dont hav the strength to pedal all the way up. and besides the full suspnsions dont come in big heights which gives a disadvantage of less pedaling force. but it is quite fun riding it downhill and jumps(shakes) less than hardtails in rough terrain.

whats the limitations of riding a hard tail on rock terrain or downhill trails? can i ride my hardtail downhill on rock terrains? is it safe?

I think this is the oldest one to be dug up as of yet!

Stick around Sam...it get's worse.

Let's all Spam vivekstreme@yahoo.com just to say thank you.



Do I hear a "thread closed"?

Thread closed. Sorry I missed this until just now. Holy cats.