Training & Nutrition - Soy especially bad for men?

Hi all,

I have been reading up on soy today. Apparently, it is bad for both men and women in that it has been proven to cause brain shrinkage and thyroid issues.

Now I found out that it can also cause PERMANENT loss of testicular cells, great! Apparently the phytoestrogens (aka isoflavones) in 100g of soy are the equivalent of taking a birth control pill.

talks about this at the top (http://www.nutrition-house.com/nutrition/00009.html)

So, anyone else read about this before, I searched on google for
thyroid soy danger (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=soy+danger+thyroid&btnG=Google+Search) and testosterone soy danger (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=soy+danger+testosterone&btnG=Google+Search) and that article I quoted above isn't apparently an isoplated one.

anyone know what to make of all this?

take care,

Jester

So I guess soy milk is just as bad as the real thing? Bummer.

So I guess soy milk is just as bad as the real thing? Bummer.

reading this has made me think next time i'm at the store i'll get rice milk instead of soy. Also, i'm going to try Seitan (wheat based) protein stuff. Oh, and eat more meat. But, My GF is a vegetarian , so, most meals have to be meat free to some degree.

Jester

Noooooooooo!!!!!!!!

What I've read in the research is that the medical professionals are suggesting that men with prostate cancer should eat more soy, as the estrogen will compete with the testosterone for the receptor sites where testosterone will bind. This will actually help the cancer patients, since it seems that an overabundance of testosterone in prostate cancer patients aggregraves the condition.

Otherwise, I got the hint that a healthy man would have to eat A LOT of soy for it to adversely affect them. I wouldn't worry.

I just got back from yet another convention and spent a good deal of time in seminars for nutrition. Our lecturers did say that it is better to get your soy from plant derivatives than from the isoflavin supplements- so be sure to drink more soy and rice milk, eat more soy beans, and have more tofu.

Proven how? Remember, if it were that harmful, it would be more likely to be removed from the shelves by the FDA or at least written up in JAMA or some kind of health threat issued by the AMA or some other organization like that. There is a whole continent of people with many more people than what we have that rely on soy in its natural state as a major food source than us, and they aren't dropping dead from eating soy, nor are they having thyroid or brain shrinkage issues. They (Asians, as in, the ones who live in Asia) live healthier lives and have less obesity problems than we have in the USA too. I suppose they account for that in their reports in the links posted in the first post of this thread?

Koffee

A study of Japanese men showed that a diet, high in soy protein was associated with low testosterone levels.

Given excellent english skills like that, how could the author possibly be wrong?

Everything I've been able to find on the net (including all of the references in that article) were from 2001 or earlier.

Also, the fact that almost every article in the thyroid search contains (verbatim) the complete sentance "This is not information that the powerful and profitable U.S. soy industry wants you to know. " suggests to me that someone anti-soy wrote up a "press release" and sent it off to a bunch of "health news" outlets, who released it with minor alterations.

Sounds like a load of crap to me.

Proven how? Remember, if it were that harmful, it would be more likely to be removed from the shelves by the FDA or at least written up in JAMA or some kind of health threat issued by the AMA or some other organization like that.
Koffee

Well, the still sell cigarettes and booze. Those are harmful & allowed to be sold...

In any event, here is a link to pubmed with the studies on brain shrinkage:
brain shrinkage (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=10763906&dopt=Abstract)

Here is a study that shows the testosterone link a bit:
Plasma testosterone and androstenedione levels were significantly lower in the animals fed the phytoestrogen-rich diet compared with animals fed the phytoestrogen-free diet (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11524239&dopt=Abstract)

But, I found that japanese mens study & it is only a slight corelation, but american vegetarians eat more soy than your average japanese man. In japan soy is more of a condiment.

the study (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=10798211&dopt=Abstract)

So, the sites found on google may mainly be wackos, but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater either.

I don't really have an opinion one way or the other on if soy is harmful or good, but there seems to be enough objective evidence to prod me to investigate more, heh.

take care,

Jester

EDIT: fixed bad link

Let's not forget the most populous country in the world (china) also has the most soy consumption. I also don't see alot of brain shrunken ******* coming out of that country.

With that said, too much of a good thing, can be too much of a good thing. Like anything else, soy should be ingested in moderation. I like how all the studies cited were in animals ranging from quails to sheep and cheetahs. Alot of animal research, although a good and necessary step in application towards humans, have in the past produced completely different results once the drug or nutrient was applied to humans. Many times producing completely different benefits or harm. (the classic is the saccharin study in rats which caused cancer and then we found out human kidneys did not contain the enzyme that converted saccharin into a carcinogen and the american cancer society officially removed it from its carcinogen list.) I would not shrug off the data. Though Japanese men and women have lower rates of reproductive cancers ie: testicular and prostate and breast, it has higher rates of thyroid cancer (prevalence of 30%), esopheageal cancers and gastric cancers. Is it related to soy consumption or high fish consumption etc. There is documented clinical evidence that soy can impair absorption of vital minerals such as zinc, an important brain nutrient, so yeah, too much of a good thing can be harmful.

As for the estrogenic effects of soy, there are epidemeological data that vegetarian women have higher rates of males with hypospadia (underdeveloped male genitalia) probably due to the higher phytoestrogen in utero environment and the monks in china eat tons of it since it seems to curb their "sexual " desires. However, it sure doesn't seem to affect the rest of the population who are still breeding like rabbits and tons of abortions are preformed (due to the one child policy.)

Soy certainly isn't the miracle food that the industry wants you to think, but I don't think it's harmful in moderation, either. As a vegan, so many alternative foods that I have as an option are soy based. My girlfriend and I always make an effort to find foods made from other plants first, so we don't become too dependent on one food source. There are plenty of other options such as seitan, almond, mushroom, and rice products. Of course there are always whole grains, vegetables, and fruit, which give me everything I need to be healthy. :)

Great. Just when I started drinking soy milk I find out it will help me get in touch with my feminine side, even if I don't care to. My brain is probably too far gone anyway. Too many years of Grad school.

I guess I will have to stick with YOHOO. Please don't tell me Yohoo is gonna kill me too.

I guess I will have to stick with YOHOO. Please don't tell me Yohoo is gonna kill me too.


Dead as a doorknob. (just kidding)

Rice milk is supposed to be pretty good for you. I'm going to buy some & try it tonight.

Take care,

Jester

Great. Just when I started drinking soy milk I find out it will help me get in touch with my feminine side, even if I don't care to. My brain is probably too far gone anyway. Too many years of Grad school.

I guess I will have to stick with YOHOO. Please don't tell me Yohoo is gonna kill me too.

Whatever health risks you may find with soy, it is still mush safer than cow's milk for human consumption.

If you're looking for alternatives, though, I much prefer almond milk to rice milk.

A study of Japanese men showed that a diet, high in soy protein was associated with low testosterone levels.

Does that mean that if I drink a lot of soy that maybe the new hair that I am now growing on my BACK will stop growing? That would cool! I love getting older. :rolleyes:

Soy is bad? Not really... it definitely has it's uses.

The 3 isoflavones in question have weak estrogenic properties but have a high affinity for the estrogen receptor.

So, there action can mean a few things. If you have high endogenous estrogen levels, the soy isoflavones can compete for the receptor, blocking some estrogen, lowering the estrogenic affect on your body.

If you have low endogenous estrogen (a healthy male), the isoflavones will bond to the receptor and cause a slight increase in estrogenic activity.

As you see in the first instance, soy can actually be used in the same sense as clomiphene citrate (but it has properties closer to that of nolvadex).

Basically, IMHO, soy is just not an optimum source of protein (and overall nutrition). It's not bad persay, but it's not the best choice you could be making. Who wants increased estrogenic effects (retain water, E fat etc)?

Brain shrinkage? Thyroid issues? I haven't heard of those ones...

Soy is ok in moderately small quantities, in my experience.
The problems I have experienced are:
the quality of the soy makes a great difference, which might be why soy is organic in many cases.(organically grown),
so...
if you eat too much of it, you don't know (and might not want to know) what is going on.
"Abstain from beans." - Pythagoras, Greek philosopher&mathematician

Jacob

But, I found that japanese mens study & it is only a slight corelation, but american vegetarians eat more soy than your average japanese man. In japan soy is more of a condiment.

Whoever's trying to assert this is badly misinformed. I've lived in Japan for more than 16 years now and here in Japan soy is NOT just a condiment, it's a staple just about as much as rice and fish. Tofu is commonly eaten every day in meals you get everywhere from 7-11 to fast food restaurants to even fancy restaurants, not to mention the large sections they take up in the grocery stores. Eda-mame is soybeans cut right off the bushes, boiled, and eaten as a common vegetable. Inari-zushi is one of the most commen fast foods, and it's from soy. The list goes on and on.

As for the health of Japanese, just spend a little time here and you'll see in how much better shape the average Japanese is compared to the average American. We get American visitors frequently, and a very common phenomenon is how tired they get just trying to keep up with the typical Japanese lifestyle of not driving, walking and cycling everywhere, climbing up and down train station stairs, etc. Obviously there are many more factors than just soy in their diets, but what soy reflects is lower fat (compared to meat) vegetable protein, and it's ingested regularly in a much more natural, unprocessed form, not tablets or pills you pop from a bottle. Just my $.02. Appreciate the dialogue :) .

There's no such thing as a bad day riding.

"...that we might have LIFE, and have it ABUNDANTLY!" - (John 10:10)

(see also)
Adam d. 930 yrs. old
Seth d. 912 yrs. old
Enosh d. 905 yrs. old

etc.
Even Jacob lived to 150.
I doubt any of these ate soy.

The typical Japanese does not live to even the age of Jacob at death, that is, I am referring to the years before Christ that Jacob lived during.

Jacob

Whoever's trying to assert this is badly misinformed. I've lived in Japan for more than 16 years now and here in Japan soy is NOT just a condiment, it's a staple just about as much as rice and fish. Tofu is commonly eaten every day in meals you get everywhere from 7-11 to fast food restaurants to even fancy restaurants, not to mention the large sections they take up in the grocery stores. Eda-mame is soybeans cut right off the bushes, boiled, and eaten as a common vegetable. Inari-zushi is one of the most commen fast foods, and it's from soy. The list goes on and on.

As for the health of Japanese, just spend a little time here and you'll see in how much better shape the average Japanese is compared to the average American. We get American visitors frequently, and a very common phenomenon is how tired they get just trying to keep up with the typical Japanese lifestyle of not driving, walking and cycling everywhere, climbing up and down train station stairs, etc. Obviously there are many more factors than just soy in their diets, but what soy reflects is lower fat (compared to meat) vegetable protein, and it's ingested regularly in a much more natural, unprocessed form, not tablets or pills you pop from a bottle. Just my $.02. Appreciate the dialogue :) .

I think the point he was trying to make was that when someone goes 'soy' in the US (or Australia, UK etc), they seem to go overboard. Rather than have it as an option, it becomes the basis for their nutrition, which is a monumental mistake. These people consume large percentage of soy compared to those in Japan (and the rest of Asia for that matter), they also consume more aggregate calories which only skews the information further. The study is an interesting one, but it definitely not definitive.

I think of soy in this way:
A low fat, medium value protein source with a questionable taste (love/hate it seems). Then, if you were eating a low fat diet, it would be ideal. If you can't drink milk or choose not to and you enjoy milk, again go for it. If you're female, I would definitely go for it. Just keep in mind it does have it's downfalls; for example if you were interested in male HRT the first thing would be to cut out all things which would promote an positive estrogen balance and increase free testosterone levels naturally.

Every food has a use. Just like anything in life, foods should be utilised in regard to these strengths and weaknesses. Unfortunately, we as a society, attach emotions to food. I will never understand why people can't see themselves doing this, but it will guarantee you end up obese.

A soy post ends up in a rant about the culture of food in Western civilizations. That's what happens when it is 40 degrees C (100F) and you are rostered in the lab all day >:(

I think the point he was trying to make was that when someone goes 'soy' in the US (or Australia, UK etc), they seem to go overboard. Rather than have it as an option, it becomes the basis for their nutrition, which is a monumental mistake. These people consume large percentage of soy compared to those in Japan (and the rest of Asia for that matter), they also consume more aggregate calories which only skews the information further.:(

Thanks for the clarification Croak. Gotcha.

In my lifetime, coffee has been good for you; bad for you; good for you; did neither harm nor good; bad for you; good for you; and, now, it is generally bad for you., again.

The same can be said for alcohol. Remember the recent stories about a glass or two of wine per day being beneficial to cardiovascular health? Well, it turns out that the French, who, on average, have a glass or two of wine per day, have a much higher incidence of liver cancer than any other country in the world. So, your heart will be so much better at pumping blood to a cancerous liver! Wonderful!

Eat wisely, don't over indulge and live long and prosper.

As for the health of Japanese, just spend a little time here and you'll see in how much better shape the average Japanese is compared to the average American. We get American visitors frequently, and a very common phenomenon is how tired they get just trying to keep up with the typical Japanese lifestyle of not driving, walking and cycling everywhere, climbing up and down train station stairs, etc. Obviously there are many more factors than just soy in their diets, but what soy reflects is lower fat (compared to meat) vegetable protein, and it's ingested regularly in a much more natural, unprocessed form, not tablets or pills you pop from a bottle. Just my $.02. Appreciate the dialogue :) .

"Health" is a relative term. While Japan has less incident of one type of cancer, they have higher incidences of other types of cancer. It is impossible to say the average Japanese is in much better shape then the average American, especially since the number of smokers is orders of magnitude higher than the U.S.

Second, who, pray tell, is the average Japanese? Who is the "average" American? What is their exact health status? You must also know that the Japanese are the most over-medicated population in the world, due to the way prescription drugs are dispensed.

The rest is culture. Sure, American tourists cannot keep up running up and down train station stairs, dodging the taxis and trucks, as they hurry to spending long hours at a job, then back down the subway stairs. I would be willing to bet my next pay check that Americans living in Japan keep up nicely.

P.S. I lived in Japan for eight years in the 1960's and 1970's and my wife is Japanese. I love Japan and enjoyed each and ever minute I lived there. I would love to live there again. But, to compare one country's health against another based on tourists keeping up the the natives is the quintessential apples and oranges argument.

While I think the point of this thread was meant as a "public service" to we who may be uninformed,misinformed,etc...people GET A GRIP! Remember the word...moderation? "You want that
supersized?" Someone else already stated..."too much of anything is not good or you".
Bicycling causes men to be impotent. Or so one "study" says. Hasn't stopped you from riding that bike every chance you get yet has it? Live your life to the fullest & enjoy everyday you have. My $.02.

While I think the point of this thread was meant as a "public service" to we who may be uninformed,misinformed,etc...people GET A GRIP! Remember the word...moderation?

I posted this because I had not heard any of this previous to reading it the last couple of days, and a) wanted to hear from other people what they thought of it and b) let anyone like myself that had never heard a peep that soy was bad know that maybe some research was in order. Though it has its place it isn't a wonder food to the expense of all others.

I don't have any particular axe to grind, just learned something new and wanted to share.

take care,

Jester

I think American men can benefit from a little estrogen to balance out the overload of testosterone that most men here seem to possess. :D

Would be a much more peaceful place to live :p

I don't have any particular axe to grind, just learned something new and wanted to share.

take care,

Jester

Thanks for sharing the info Jester! Interesting food for thought :) . Happy riding!

I think American men can benefit from a little estrogen to balance out the overload of testosterone that most men here seem to possess.

Too much testosterone? What's that supposed to mean, a****ole? How'd you like me to rip off your arms and beat you with the stumps? Huh, jerk******?? Estrogen, indeed!

:D

I think American men can benefit from a little estrogen to balance out the overload of testosterone that most men here seem to possess. :D

Would be a much more peaceful place to live :p

But nothing would ever get done...

Now I've put my foot in it! :D

But nothing would ever get done...

Now I've put my foot in it! :D


Nothing ever gets done anyway and the men are already in charge. So any increase in estrogen levels would be an improvement.

Koffee

I'd say that depends on how much you like 'Queer eye for the straight guy' :D

Why is cow's milk so bad for people?

"Nothing ever gets done anyway and the men are already in charge. So any increase in estrogen levels would be an improvement."

I'm am always for a good mix of the sexes and let shim that is most competent be in charge, by the way have you ever worked in an office of all women?

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted by gonesh9
I think American men can benefit from a little estrogen to balance out the overload of testosterone that most men here seem to possess.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I already have a little estrogen, I just don't want to be determined hormonally by an internet computer.

Jacob

Why is cow's milk so bad for people?

It mainly revolves around the inability of people to process lactose. Even if they can, it is a pure sugar and isn't that great for you.

Again, it has it's strengths and weaknesses.

It sounds like the same old thing, don't drink a gallon of milk a day, but it won't kill you on your Korn Flakes. If Lactose is basically sugar, does it affect you like processed suger or like the sugar found in fruit? as I am told there is a difference.

Cow's milk is bad for you because of the synthetic hormones that are contained in it. I forget the name of the chemical but it is made by Montsanto. The stuff is proven to cause cancer. Every time one of the major news networks prepares a story about this, Monsanto threatens to sue and the networks back off. Defending themselves in court is not profitable so they don't persue the story. NPR is the only news outlet that would touch this story - that's how I heard about it.

I'll keep that in mind the next time I am behind a city bus sucking diesel :rolleyes:

By the way NPR is the best especially TAL

Cow's milk is bad for you because of the synthetic hormones that are contained in it. I forget the name of the chemical but it is made by Montsanto. The stuff is proven to cause cancer. Every time one of the major news networks prepares a story about this, Monsanto threatens to sue and the networks back off. Defending themselves in court is not profitable so they don't persue the story. NPR is the only news outlet that would touch this story - that's how I heard about it.

Major news networks afraid of a lawsuit? If there is a scientific study which 'proves' that something in milk causes cancer, I don't think the threat of a lawsuit would stop the media from reporting its contents.

To prevail in such a lawsuit, the plaintiff would have the burden of proving the report false and proving that the defendant believed the report was false when they reported on it.

Did Monsant sue NPR? Did they win?

Lactose is the sugar in milk. It is the only sugar present in milk. Lactose is a disaccharide, meaning it is made up of two simple sugars, glucose and galactose.

When consumed in milk, lactose, the disaccharide, must be broken down into its two monosaccharides before it can be absorbed from the intestinal tract into the bloodstream. Lactase is the enzyme that breaks down the lactose in milk products. Lactase is present in the intestinal cells of the upper part of the gastrointestinal tract and its highest concentration is in that portion of the small bowel called the jejunum.

Lactase actively first appears in the intestinal tract of infants during the last third of pregnancy and is at its height shortly after birth. If the amount of lactose in the diet exceeds the capacity of the lactase in the intestine to break it down, then the lactose is undigested and proceeds to the large intestine. When the undigested lactose reaches the colon, or large intestine, two things happen. First the lactose is acted upon by the bacteria that normally inhabit the colon. They ferment the lactose and convert it to gas, carbon dioxide, and to an acid, lactic acid. The lactose molecules also cause water to be drawn into the intestinal tract by a process of osmosis. As a result, more gas and water are present in the colon.

Prior to 1965 it was assumed that absence of lactase in the intestinal tract was an unusual disorder seen in some infants as a result of a hereditary abnormality. It was in that year that investigators at Johns Hopkins School of Medicine first observed that 15% of all whites and 70% of all blacks tested were unable to digest lactose. Surveys around the world populations were begun and we now know that far more people are unable to digest lactose than are able to digest it.

Somewhere between the age of 1 and a half and four years of age most individuals lose the lactase ability in their small intestine. This appears to be a normal process that accompanies maturation. It occurs in most mammals shortly after they are weaned. Humans behave just like other animals in this regard.

To give you some appreciation of how common lactase deficiency is, here are some statistics:

Population group / Prevelance of lactase deficiency in healthy adults:

Filipinos 90%
Japanese 85%
Tawanese 85%
Thais 90%
Indians 50%
Peruvians 70%
Greenland Eskimos 70%
American Blacks 70%
Bantus 90%
Greeks 85%
Arabs 78%
Israeli Jews 58%
Finns 18%
Danes 2%
Swiss 7%
American Whites 8%

Since the majority of people on earth are either black or yellow it is easy to see that the same majority are lactase-deficient. It might be guessed that if cow milk had not been white it would never have become popular in the first place.



So the simple answer to the question "Is cow milk bad for you", is that humans were designed to thrive off of their mothers' milk for up to four years. We were not designed to consume cow's milk, or any other animal's milk.

This doesn't even take into consideration Cycletourist's correctly stated comment regarding the unnatural chemicals that are present in most of the cow's milk consumed today.

So the simple answer to the question "Is cow milk bad for you", is that humans were designed to thrive off of their mothers' milk for up to four years. We were not designed to consume cow's milk, or any other animal's milk.

This doesn't even take into consideration Cycletourist's correctly stated comment regarding the unnatural chemicals that are present in most of the cow's milk consumed today.

Good points, but I think it is a little simplistic.

I personally don't drink cows milk, but there are many positives one can gain from it, especially the full fat kind. Substances like CLA are abundant in whole milk.

If you really want to get technical with what the body was designed for, you shouldn't be eating the plaeolithic diet. What you will find is that this isn't the optimum way to be eating these days.

If you really want to get technical with what the body was designed for, you shouldn't be eating the plaeolithic diet. What you will find is that this isn't the optimum way to be eating these days.

I don't eat a paleolithic diet. That would include hunted meat, and no cereals. I am a strict herbivore, and in my opinion with the current state of injected hormones, chemicals, and diseased animals that routinely pass FDA regulations, this is infact the optimum way to be eating these days.

Whether or not our bodies were designed to be herbivores or not, cow's milk is still an unnatural food for human consumption. Even more so now with the way milk is processed. Also, there is nothing in our bodies keeping us from being able to successfully digest a plant-based diet.

I subside mainly on bratwust and beer, so I have nothing to worry about, right?

Does anyone know how delicate artificial hormones are? Do they mainly use artificial hormones? I would imagine natural hormones would be much to difficult to work with

Well, FWIW I bought some Almond milk and cheese. Haven't tried the milk yet, but the cheese was pretty good. Not quite as good as the soy stuff, but I think that was just because it was lower fat than the soy kind.

Also, last night I came up with a different idea than having regular veggie burger. I bought some falafel mix, and made it into hamburger sized patties. One box made 5 BIG patties, i froze 4 and cooked one. Tasted pretty good, and doesn't have all the Soy and MSG (i'm allergic to that stuff, makes me wheeze) of a regular veggieburger.

Also, found an intriguing recipie for lentil burgers, think i'll make a batch of that and try those. Freeze the extras for easy dinners.

heres a link to the recipie:
http://www.fatfree.com/recipes/sandwiches/red-lentil-burgers

I think i might make a lentil loaf or lentil casserole too. The only thing i really like soy for is making tacos with the crumbles, can't think of a good substitute to that other than using more black beans etc.

Anyway, this just motivated me to get away from processed veggie patties and make my own anyway. I had been planning to go there because of the MSG thing in any event. I'll stilll eat soy, but less than I had been (probably was at an average of 3-4x a week or more)

take care,

Jester

P.S. I'm not a vegetarian but my GF is, so we eat vegetarian at home and I have meat when I eat out or crave it, usually averages to 1-2x a week or so.

EDIT: fixed recipie link.

I am a strict herbivore, and in my opinion with the current state of injected hormones, chemicals, and diseased animals that routinely pass FDA regulations, this is infact the optimum way to be eating these days.

Now, to be fair Gonesh, you are criticizing factory farming not meat with that statement. There are plenty of ways to get meat that has not been subjected to any of those problems, up to having your own food animals. We have some land in the country, and our neighbor has cows. That and many health food stores or internet stores have cruelty free grass fed cows etc.

If one has a moral objection to meat, yes vegetarian is the way to go. Some believe vegetarian is healthier, others believe moderate meat eating etc. But one can't discount omnivorism entirely based on one segment of the meat industry. That being said i'd sooner eat poo than ground meat from any fast food restaurant or processed food item.

Temp1: the hormones in Soy are part of the bean, a sort of defense mechanism. As for hormones for cows, the natural and synthetic hormones are, I believe, chemically identical, so the handling procedures would be the same. the big difference is the synthetic stuff can be produced cost effectively in large quantities allowing farmers to give the cows lots to make them bigger or make more milk. Problem is, some of this hormone comes out in the milks and meats and can impact humans in some cases.

Take care,

jester

I am also wondering what is so fantastic about a "natural" diet and who defines "natural", naturally we shoud have black skin and live in Afica, aggriculture is not natual, neither are bikes. I think our natural state is to push the borders of our environment and put to full use our very flexable body, just because some people loose the ability to drink mike after a certain age says nothing. Did they loose the ability to drink milk because they just stopped drinking it? That would make sence, why would their body wast resources retaining the ability to process milk? Over the course of humanities history dairy, meat, and all the other things that people say will kill us have been essential to our diet, and in many environments are much preferable to the alternative, starvation. If we are going to crusade for any thing about our diet it should be the quantity of it we consume, obesity just passed smoking as the #1 cause of preventable death in the U.S.

Also if synthetic hormones are identical to natural ones they are harmless because If I remember correctally (I could be way off base) natural hormones are destroyed by very small shifts in temp and PH.

Now, to be fair Gonesh, you are criticizing factory farming not meat with that statement.


Yes, you are right, Jester....

I believe in vegetarianism for multiple reasons, and admittedly my arguments for it often oveflap. What I was trying to get at, though, is most people that eat meat and dairy don't just eat natural, grass fed, organic meat and dairy. Since the majority of meat and dairy in America is far from natural and healthy, I'm suggesting that the typical omnivorous diet includes a lot of unhealthy food. On top of that, vegetarianism often causes people to become much more aware of what they eat, thus affecting their choices as to the quality of their food, i.e. organic, local, sustainable options...

It is true, though, that you can be extremely healthy as an omnivore if you are hyper aware of what you are comsuming. I commend your efforts to limiting unhealthy foods in your diet. Oh, and your falafel idea is great. It is such a useful food, and easy to prepare. A lot of carbs, though... Just means you've got to ride more to make up for it I guess :D

Over the course of humanities history dairy, meat, and all the other things that people say will kill us have been essential to our diet, and in many environments are much preferable to the alternative, starvation.

First of all, no one is saying that meat or dairy is going to kill you. Its the chemicals and hormones that the industry is using now that can cause cancers and other illnesses.

You are right that the human body has the remarkable ability to adapt, and the term 'natural' is sort of ambiguous. I just tend to want to stay away from consuming artificial materials that are called food.

agreed

In my lifetime, coffee has been good for you; bad for you; good for you; did neither harm nor good; bad for you; good for you; and, now, it is generally bad for you., again..

Bad for you? Again?? I thought we were back to good for you again. Bummer...

I heard soy gives you man boobies.

Absurd.